thanks again, everyone. [applause] >> all right, thanks, jake. good evening. i am abby phillip in washington. and you were just watching a special live cnn town hall. and tonight's candidate on that main stage was ron desantis, of course. tonight's setting is iowa, where many now see the stakes there for ron desantis as do or die. the florida governor said that the polls don't tell the whole story, and that he is building momentum. among tonight's highlights, ron desantis said that he does plan to replace obamacare. but when we see that plan is tbd, and he forcefully went after donald trump, from everything, from the border, to the satanic display inside of the iowa capitol. with me to break down all of this that we just saw and heard is jamal simmons, scott jennings, and navarro, and paul but gala paul begala -- scott, we will start with you. >> -- far more instructive -- think about issues instead of lowman style colosseum attacks on one another. so, i thought if you were an undecided voter and you are looking to -- he did a great job tonight. i thought his answers on the economy, the electability question, and on immigration were all really center cut for republican primary voters. what he is fighting, though, is not really policy. what he is fighting is the inevitability of donald trump, and the idea that he is inevitably going to win. and really, he's also fighting the national polling showing him feeding defeating though joe biden. that was the -- so many -- >> joe biden -- >> that trump can't win. and how republican seeing these polls showing trump winning, and so the idea of strategic voting, i want to vote for the person i sort of, like but may have a better chance of winning -- that is out of the window with trump winning. but overall i thought ron desantis had a terrific. night >> jamal? >> i have to say, i walked, and i came into this tonight with very low expectations for the governor from florida. i thought that he met my low expectations, and maybe got a little bit more. right? he seemed more comfortable than i thought i had seen him before. he seemed a little bit more personal bowl, illegal bit more confident. but he still has ideas that don't make any sense. for instance, on immigration, he thinks that we should tax the money that mexican immigrants sent back home to their families. now, isn't the point of our immigration reform that people should be able to stay home, be near their families, be near the people they love, not have to come to the united states to have a better life? so why, would you lower the amount of money that they would -- from their families over here? it just doesn't make any sense from a policy perspective. so, all things like that that he said tonight they just don't really seem to make sense. >> yeah, i would say, stylistically -- well, not -- my wife, ten seconds ago, just texted me and said, he is much less robotic. and that kind of grabbed me on a curve, so, my answer is, yes, a.i. he's getting better every single day -- it's almost lifelike. we should not grade him on a curve. -- world history. it's just not getting it done. i'm sorry. he was better than usual. but he -- >> may not be enough, where we are, ahead of the iowa caucuses? >> listen, i am shocked i am saying this. i think people are gonna be shot that i am saying, this because i truly do not like this man. i live in florida. i have lived under him for five years now. and i particularly, in these last couple of years, i think he's been awful. today i think he was strangely close to human. and, like scott jennings, i agree with. scott i think this is the best i have seen him, as of late. that's a very low bar. but this is the best i have seen him. i think this is a very good format for him. i tell you what i did not hear -- i did not hear him say the word woke. i did not hear him go after disney. i did not hear him go after drag queens. i did not hear him go after black history. i did not hear him try to defend a positive side of slavery. he was talking about substantive policy issues that the american people and the people of iowa care about. not stupid manufactured culture wars, which is what he thought was going to win him the nomination. >> that is a really important point. because it has been a little over a year since he won his reelection in florida. and his candidacy has changed dramatically. and, in some ways, he's battling on the turf now of just every other republican, including donald trump. and he took it really to trump in quite a lot of ways tonight. that is different than we have seen. he said, when trump gets off the teleprompter, you don't know what he is going to say. good enough? >> no. here's the reason why. he does not have an indictment of trump. there is no thematic point that he is trying to make about trump. it's a scattershot approach. every time trump does, something he has something to say. the one thing you can say about nikki haley -- behind. right? so, every time he does something he fits it into that framework. that is not what ron desantis is doing. what ron desantis is doing is just taking a potshot at trump every time trump does a little thing wrong, which makes it hard for the viewer and the voter to know exactly what your argument is about why desantis should be picked more than trump. >> i disagree. i think his main theme on trump's, he's a different person today than he was when he ran in 15 and 16. he said it tonight. he, said back then it was out about america first, it was about -- more about. him the one answer on trump that i thought was most interesting, because it is aimed squarely at the people who show up at the iowa caucus, was on abortion. and he hit trump on flip-flopping on abortion, which was, really, squarely aimed at those voters. but then -- but then, when he got the follow-up about the texas case and he talked about the law that he signed with the exceptions, he did not exactly comment on the texas case. but i thought that answer was pretty deft, actually, in pointing out he's been a consistent pro-life candidate. without question about exception, i just live through this in kentucky in our governor's race, we are all republican was for the current state law, which doesn't contain the exceptions, but the heartbeat bill in florida does. and he signed it. i thought that was pretty smooth the way he threaded that -- the exceptions were not really negotiable for most voters. >> so, actually agree with you. i think that shot he took at trump and the abortion position for those social conservatives was a very effective thing. the problem that ron desantis has is that you get one chance to cause and create a first impression. and he has made that first impression now. and his campaign has that certain stench of political death that is very hard to get rid of. the other problem he has, i think, on this abortion issue, and i wish somebody had pushed back on him on that was, we had a very similar case to what is happening in texas, in florida, in march. a woman named deborah dorbert who is carrying a child who had no kidneys, and was short to die. and because of the laws in florida, because of the lack of exceptions, because doctors are terrified of being criminalized, of being sued, because of all of that, this woman had to carry this baby to term. and because she did not have the money to go out of state. and hold that baby for 90 minutes while it gasped for air in her arms. to me, that is something that ron desantis needs to explain, ken paxton and governor abbott need to explain. because women in this country deserve an answer as to the cruelty and the idea that these men in the capitals of the states are telling women what is health care and what is not. >> he described it as extremely rare. but it's actually the rare cases that make the point when the state itself as being inflexible. >> it was. i think -- still his best moments, god's. right it just -- republican primary voters. and i don't think it helps him at all in the general action. i don't think has the worry about the general election. to put it in your context, one years ago -- to put it in context. this is the center of loss, of death, that you talked about. when you are ron desantis beating donald trump 56 to 33, he was 23 points ahead of trump a year ago in the polls today he is 48 points behind. that is a 71 point erosion after going to all 99 counties, spending $50 million. and that could have cost him $71. >> he did say today -- the only candidate who could beat trump. >> providing no evidence, of course -- >> behind? >> his point is, it's unlikely, in his view, that a candidate who sort of came from the old republican party -- donald trump -- can muster enough support -- current iteration of the republican party. his point is, he's able to draw from the pre-trump area but also appeal to people who have gotten used to the trumps of republican party. the problem with this argument, of course, is the polls. trump is crushing in iowa. trump is crushing in new hampshire. trump is over 60% nationally. it would be unheard, of unprecedented for someone with trump's lead, at this point of the campaign, to lose the nomination for his party. and the trump people will tell you that for all of the trying that has gone on in eyewear, their organization is solid. they have got a very high floor that they think they start, with the people who are showing up no matter what. and i still maintain, regarding the consolidation question that came out, that iowa is not big enough for ron desantis and nikki haley, and new hampshire is not big enough for nikki haley and christie. but as long as that circumstance remains, trump is squarely in the driver seat right here. >> do you think, jamal simmons, that this is the moment for desantis, that he has to perform? otherwise, it's not going to happen in iowa? >> this is obviously the moment for him to get this right. what happens in campaigns, and there's a moment where, as you get towards the end of the year, people start to take off. and you see somebody, again, to ascend. it happened to barack obama. it happens to these candidates. he has got to do it now, or it won't happen. one of the reasons i have low expectations tonight is because i don't think ron desantis has any idea how to run for president. he is not really a leader. so, the beginning of this campaign, the trump forces spent $13 million to define ron desantis. everything that we know about ron desantis comes from donald trump and his people telling us that ron desantis was robotic and was not really a good person to follow. he did not have the charisma. right? they set the stage early. it was unanswered. i think that this is another example of ron desantis not really being able to just perform on the presidential stage in the way that winners do. >> so, now the problem he has his -- listen, he talks about nikki haley being an establishment candidate. but he also is an establishment candidate who depends on big donors. and a lot of those big donors have now moved on. they were quick to be with him at the beginning. he had a lot of the big republican whales with him in the beginning. they saw a disastrous campaign, a disastrous campaign launch, and it only got worse from then. and they have moved on. and ron desantis is not donald trump, who has got a bunch of small donors, that by pieces of his whatever it is sacred tunic, sacred suit that he wore to court. no, that is not ron desantis. he doesn't have the charisma to have an army of small donors. he needs to depend on special interests and large donors. and they now see him as damaged goods. >> so, here's where we are now, where we are on the cusp of and iowa and new hampshire. we have an iowa governor who has endorsed ron desantis and the new hampshire governor today, chris sununu, endorsing nikki haley. what does that create for the early part of this republican primary? >> i think scott alluded to this. the best possible situation for mr. trump -- so, i think ron desantis maybe a little bit stronger in iowa. if he is smart he will close on abortion. his best answer tonight -- over christmas, a lot of are iowans going to be snowed in, going to be watching tv. we saw mike huckabee do this. he -- and had -- former cross. and he needs to -- so, if he does that, it's a much bigger position in new hampshire where -- and once again, the opposition to trump is -- going to allow trump to conquer. >> the trick for him is just -- i think it's unlikely that trump will get beaten. so, if you are desantis, i to ge >> -- for haley, for anyone else who is still in this race. all-time republican record in iowa is winning by 13. -- 1988. mr. trump is winning by 27 right now. can he hold the? i don't know. if i say he has got to win by more than 13, that sounds like ridiculous -- >> and iowa -- is more valuable than the person, like barack obama, who is not expected to win, sir just to the front. and then it can catapult them through the early primaries. so, if that does not happen, then it could be over. >> yeah. here is the trick. i learned a lot about politics from paul begala when i was four starting out in this game. but there are rules that we all think about, right? the future is more important than the past. or elections are not rewards for great behavior. donald trump seems to have taken all those rules and ball them up and thrown them away. so, as we think about what is happening in politics in the trump era, nothing else seems to matter. 13 points was the record before. we might see that smoked. we've got an 82-year-old president running on the democratic side. all sorts of things are happening. it's wild out here. we don't know what is going to happen. >> one of the things about the trump campaign in eyewear that i think is -- i think this is their best campaign team devour head and this is the best campaign leadership they've had. they're the most organized they have ever been. and they have got all the levers in place. and they have shape this republican primary, not just in iowa, but in state parties across the country. this is the best prepared he has ever been going into any of these elections that he has been involved in. and so, if you are desantis, or haley, or these other challengers, taking on a former president who is very popular among your party is tough enough. but then to run up against the most well organized operation he's ever been able to put together -- all of his issues aside, they are prepared for this election in a way he's never been. >> and it's the former president who views ron desantis like a chihuahua yapping at his ankles, right? he's not bothered by ron desantis anymore. he doesn't even retort -- >> ron desantis, when he started out, he wanted to run against joe biden. he is running against donald trump, and nikki haley. we heard him attack nikki haley repeatedly in this debate pretty aggressively. >> robbie, he's running against ron desantis. he's trying to change the narrative, trying to change the perception that people have created nationally, in iowa, in new hampshire, in the early states about ron desantis being robotic, you being awkward, we thank a broken record with one tune on it. woke, woke, woke. he is trying to change that perception, he's running against ron desantis. >> ana it was making this point. he's running away from controversial stuff. tonight, no red flags on a lot of different points. it is boring good for desantis at this point? [inaudible] >> it used to be! i think, mr. trump, you say what you want, he is exciting. [laughs] in the same way a category five hurricane is exciting. he is exciting, compelling. i do think, if governor desantis wants to beat mr. trump, he's going to beat him, and he hit him harder than he ever has tonight. he left a lot on the table. he pulled his punches on, for example, when he was talking about the rise in antisemitism, which as florida governor, he knows and cares about. he didn't mention, and this very state, trump had dinner with nick fuentes who -- >> that is because trying to preserve the trump base, right? >> i don't know. >> he said so today. >> look, trump is entertaining, but he's also likable. republicans like donald trump, even the people who think, maybe, we should move on. i like trump, i like what he did, i think he seems like a good guy who came along at the right time, he smashed the clintons and the media. desantis's game is not a likability. desantis's game is constantly churning out center cut, conservative republican content that every republican watching now would say, sounds pretty good to me. now, the question is, is being right on virtually every policy good enough? if you have to have at other here, which trump has, and no one -- [inaudible] >> i am not sure conservatives would say going after the largest employer in florida, disney, over having a different opinion the governor, is a conservative value. rhonda scent is has a big problem right now, which is that donald trump is beating him like a conga drum in florida, where people know him best. >> he got a lot of praise for that on conservative media, but to voters, it is perhaps not enough. everyone, stick around. tomorrow, don't miss donna bash's anoint -- and governor sununu of new hampshire about that endorsement we were just talking about it. that will be on inside politics at noon. also tomorrow, i will be hosting a town hall with republican presidential candidate vivek ramaswamy in iowa. you could catch that at nine pm eastern, on cnn. up next for us, rudy giuliani's tripling down on defamatory remarks about two georgia election workers, as one of them justifies that she fears being lynched. plus, why american foreign policy is now rapidly changing as a rift developed with israel, and ukrainian president gets the cold shoulder over on capitol hill. some reaction to conservatives saying the president of harvard kept her job only because of her race. this is cnn's special live coverage. we witnessed a very revealing cnn town hall with ron desantis tonight. he forcefully attacked the former president of the united states, donald trump, on personal and on policy terms. in some instances, the florida governor also strayed from the truth. tom foreman joins me now with a fact-checked of some of the governors claims. tom? >> abby, one of the things he went after is something that worries everyone in this country, and as for quite some time now, gas prices. listen to what he said. >> we are going to have an energy boom in this country. we're going to be independent. we are going to be dominant. we are going to lower your gas prices. we are going to lower energy costs. >> that sounds a grand idea. the problem is, the united states, under president joe biden, is producing more oil than it ever has, more than it did under donald trump. it is now the leading oil producer in the world, and yet, the prices of oil are governed by a world market. you can't really separated from the conflict in ukraine, from opec, saying they're going to cut back on some of the price production out there which will drive prices up. that may sound like a good promise, other presidents made that promise before. it doesn't really come true. it's the nature of the oil market. abby? >> that is a common one. you hear that from candidates all the time. the facts remain with the are. there is this discrepancy when it came to food prices. what did he say about that? >> something that took off for a lot of consumers, it started during covid, and it went from there. people have worried about it. look what he said about what happened to food prices, though. >> the groceries have gone up way more than 10%. they've gone up 50%, 75%, maybe 100%. >> no, they haven't. they have definitely gone up. there's no question about. that for the year ending in november, the numbers are 2.9% increased. if you take it back t