lot easier for you too. why did you take that decision? >> >> >> i don't think it would've made it easier because at the end of the day at the end of the day, the question really is, you know, what's more important here. and to me, there was no world in which you would say maintaining this house seat matters more than standing up for truth. and it became clear that in order to stay in leadership, i was gonna have to tell donald trump's lies. and i was willing to do. that it wasn't a choice for me, and frankly, i don't think it was a choice for any american now given the stakes and given how significant this trend is. >> the book is called "oath and honor: a memoir and a warning". liz cheney, what a remarkable -- what the world -- [laughter] and i know, despite everything, it's not the easiest thing in the world to sit down with me for an hour. but i really appreciate it. >> thank you, i appreciate it. >> let's keep the conversation going. -- that's going to do it for us tonight. it is time for the last word with lawrence for donald. good evening, lawrence. >> good evening, rachel. you did make it look like it was the easiest thing in the world to sit down with you for an hour. i think a lot of people would want to do it, but i'm sure liz cheney is very glad she got the chance to do that. that point she just made about not the lesser of two evils is such an important point to double underline from everything she's written in her book, everything we've learned from the january 6th committee. i know plenty of times over the years, i've heard people refer to their vote choice as the lesser of two evils. that is not where we are anymore. >> no. lawrence, one of the things i didn't expect before reading the book, and i probably should have when i started to see republican reaction to it, a lot of the republican issue with liz cheney is she is not shy about saying what people are doing wrong. she doesn't try to make people feel better about it when they're doing something wrong. she doesn't go out of her way to say, oh, i understand, you had a hard childhood, or whatever. like meeting emotional needs of yours. you are doing the wrong thing at a time when your country needs to do the right thing. i'm going to call you wrong for doing it. that is the sort of thing, you have to be built a certain way to do that. that means you have a certain courage of convictions in terms of how seriously people are messing up, and how much we need to correct. i find it now i'm using to see these republicans, all these tough guy republicans talking about how much she hurts their feelings. she isn't afraid to do. it is worth doing it because of the stakes she defines so clearly. it is a remarkable thing. >> rachel, it is the way, in my personal estimate in the 99 days, one is working in the senate, it is the way about 80% of them were at that time. when we would close the door and have, say, the democratic senators policy luncheon, and you have 50, 57 democrats at the time, they don't all show up, but almost all of them do, there were some almost healthy, i would say, fistfights break out in that room in terms of just arguing across the table with each other, in extremely direct ways, and that would calm down into something else. it would be all a way of getting to a consensus. people did not pull punches. they weren't careful about your feelings on they disagreed with you on the tax bill. they said this is where i am. they were very clear about it. liz cheney reminds me so much of the way both democrats and republicans handled themselves in congress in the past. >> yeah. it is also -- i saw yesterday, i think it was on cnn, lindsey graham responding to the claims in her book about the dangerousness of a potential second trump term. his take on it was, oh, yes, i am sure liz has a lot of feelings about donald trump. like, actually, dude, no. i don't know if she has any feelings. i know she doesn't think they're relevant to whether or not we have a democracy anymore. so, trying to put things on her as if she is like, you know, a kid, a little girl, or a sad woman who needs to be placated it with her feelings, just profoundly misunderstands her force in politics, and what she's trying to do here, and gives light to that kind of laziness. i'm glad for. >> talk about feelings. i mean, lindsey graham has just a ball of feelings about donald trump, and the feeling is fear. it does nothing but fear of donald trump that trump voters in south carolina. that is the way he lives his life, in fear of those people. there is one way in which liz cheney is extraordinary tonight, and remains extraordinary, even if we go back retroactively. that is, the number of politicians that i am aware of, or i could watch them make the decision to do something, choose something that would, not just hurt their reelection, but pretty much doom their reelection, it is mario cuomo refusing to change his position on the death penalty in the 1990s, and, sorry, i can't think of anyone since then, except liz cheney. for me, when i was working in government, the trick question for politicians always was, what would you not do to get reelected? most of them would go blank. they wouldn't be able to follow the sequence of those words. they wouldn't quite understand what you just asked, the concept of something you would not do to get reelected. liz cheney really, on that basis alone, being willing to do something that she knew would pretty much prevent her from getting reelected, she didn't just choose to do anything. she chose to do the single most important thing that you could ask her to do. >> people -- when it's hypothetical, everyone's a hero. everybody thinks they do the principal thing. we look at ourselves in history, think, oh, i would be that resistance fighter, right? but in reality, the reason is, the reason there are so few of those people, and there are so few heroes, is because, in reality, when heroism comes up and knocked on your door, it usually is easier to pretend you're asleep. it is usually easier to let things happen and hope someone else is going to take the rap. here's someone who saw it clear eyed and did it knowing exactly what it would mean. >> and, rachel, before you go, as long as we're talking about our cheney histories, and our encounters, i know the last time i was on television with liz cheney, which was long before this program, a subject was torture. one of us was in favor, one of us was against. i would have to check the record to see which one. it might be why she's not coming on this program. it is so -- it makes so much sense to me to see the two of you there tonight. this is the way, again, it used to work in congress, where you could be adamantly opposed, you could be fighting liz cheney all day on tax legislation, and you could be teamed up with her on something else. that, i used to see that all the time. you are fiercest opponent today, next week is going to be your most important ally in something. i am so glad to have seen this interview tonight. this is really -- this was worth waiting for. >> thanks, lawrence. i appreciate, my friend. >> thank you, rachel. thank you. liz cheney has already done the impossible with her book. she has, apparently, tricked donald trump into finally telling the truth about himself. in a social media post about liz cheney and her book, donald trump said, i was angry, and i was eating too much. joining us now is jen psaki who served as white house press secretary in the biden administration, the host of "inside with jen psaki" on msnbc, and jen was angering the eight pm hour tonight. jen, i am so eager to talk to you about this. this is one of those moments, i think, for insiders. you have been in this kind of -- you have been government the way liz cheney has. she's worked in administration -- >> and you have, yes. >> yes, before she went to congress, you worked in the administration. she grew up in it, in a sense, with her father. to see someone who stays anchored all the way through all of that experience, so that when it comes down to it, and it comes down to a choice of her oath of office versus a reelection campaign, she chooses her oath of office. >> that's right, lawrence. as rachel started that interview, which was so fascinating to watch, acknowledging it is a little weird to see our friend, rachel maddow, interviewing the daughter of dick cheney, right? here we are. she stood up for democracy, and wasn't shy about telling the truth. there are so many things -- i have under the book yet, because the book comes out tomorrow, and i'm eager to do that. one of the things that was in the excerpts that stuck out to me, and as a reminder of that, is the scene of dick cheney going to the capitol, floor of the capitol a year after january six to commemorate that day, and being shocked there weren't other republicans there. having an embrace with nancy pelosi, of all people. that tells you a lot about liz cheney, about what she's been willing to do, and that's very difficult. really, she was third in line in the republican caucus, and what she did meant she was, of course, no longer in leadership, no longer in congress. i, really -- i love so many aspects of that interview. one of them, to go down the nerdy government rabbit hole with you. >> please do. >> this is a safe place to do. i think we will be talking about it a lot more in the next couple of days. she mentioned the transition of power. the peaceful transition of power. it is so important to remember, at a time when there's so much craziness that donald trump is saying and doing, there are normal transitions of power. there is normal disagreements, even strong, visceral ones as you are talking about with rachel. i was a part -- i came in with barack obama, when the bush administration was leaving, lots of strong disagreements there about many policy issues, including the iraq war. it was a peaceful transition, a graceful transition, it was a -- they welcomed us with open arms, and wanted to prepare us to govern the country. that is how it is supposed to work. i thought it was interesting she mentioned that. my ears perked up because pardon power is something that is, basically, all powerful, as you know well, lawrence, that a president has, that, historically, for the most part, and there are exceptions, has not been abused. that power in the hands of a second term for donald trump is almost one of the scariest things. the fact she mentioned that, it is just a reminder of how important it is for us to pay attention to that. >> let's listen to part of the interview towards the beginning when liz cheney was describing a few days before january six, when she started to get the feeling about what was coming. let's listen to this. >> i had been getting these hints through the months after the election of glimpses into things that they were attempting to do. each time, sort of, i saw something come up, and i kept thinking, and i think a lot of us kept thinking, all right, look, he's going to bring these court challenges, but of course, one the courts have ruled, he will concede, we will move on. each time you thought we were at an end, we weren't really at an end. so, i think, this was the most chilling moment where it was suddenly real that, you know, this wasn't just, sort of, a pr effort to suggest he hadn't lost the election. it was a very real plan to stop us from counting legitimate electoral votes. frankly, that realization, that recognition, it was nauseating because it was so scary. wait a minute, this is what they're going to try to do. >> jen, it is such a vivid moment. it is such a sickening idea that she is listening in on a phone call about this strategy, and hearing it for the first time. >> that's right. thinking, which is so striking, this can't possibly happen, really. that's what i heard in her answer. there's going to be some shenanigans. we know he is arguing the election was rigged. this can't possibly happen. listening to her really brought me back to that day, and the day before. i was working on the presidential transition. we thought, and we didn't have as much inside as her, of course, but we thought there would be some shenanigans on the floor, some delay tactics, right? never factored in, of course, what happened on january 6th. it is all a reminder, listening to liz cheney talk, and even listening to donald trump talk, especially over the last couple of weeks, he is telling us exactly what he is going to do. we should listen to him, right? we think it's not possible, the system will protect us from it, the system is not equipped, always, for donald trump. when he's telling us things like he's not going to listen to the judicial system, or process, as she reiterated in that interview, we need to listen to him. >> let's listen to liz cheney's description, hypothetical description, of how it would work, how donald trump has been promising to run things if he is in the presidency again. let's listen to that. >> imagine a situation where the people around him, the lawyers he's hired in the administration, he may have some who would, you could imagine, then stepping up and saying, wait, we can't take that action, we can't do that for legal reasons. in the president, combining both his determination to ignore the rulings of the courts, with offering pardons to people who do his bidding, it is a toxic and very dangerous mix. i think people need to take it seriously, the potential he will do that because, in fact, we are watching him, and listening them so he will do it now. >> jen, if that message is going to get through to republican voters, it seems it has to come from a republican voice. >> yes. i think that is true. i also think it's important for people in this moment to understand, she referenced pardon power, i've referenced this earlier, technically, any president has the power to pardon anyone they want. historically, through the administrations i work, and probably during the time you are working on capitol hill, what would happen, there would be a legal vetting process that went through the department of justice to ensure you weren't intervening in an investigations, they met the qualifications, this is a person who should be recommended for pardon. that is a good check in the system. that is not what donald trump did. that's not what donald trump will do. what does that mean? all of these people who are helping him, who might help him, attempt to overturn an election, he intends to pardon them. he doesn't need -- there is not a check in the system to prevent him from doing that, legally, technically. there should be. there is a historical precedent. there is not a check in the system. i think that is important for people to know and understand, the risks of that in this moment. >> jen, you have an interview scheduled coming up with liz cheney. what is that? >> that is coming up next monday, at eight pm. >> monday eight pm. >> plenty of time to read the book, very much looking forward to talking with her, and diving into all of these pieces and questions. can i mention one more thing, which i'm sure stuck out to you given your time on the hill, lawrence? mike johnson is someone i've been talking about, i know you've been talking about. she raised him. what is important about that, in order for trump to do what he wants to do, he needs enablers. mike johnson is second in line to the presidency. he was an advocate, he was a partner, a friend for what donald trump did on january 6th. that is a scary circumstance, if mike johnson and donald trump are partners in this effort. i thought it was interesting she raised that. it is alarming. that's how the structure of power, of course, works. >> i have a feeling on monday night, at eight, we will be hearing more about liz cheney's views of mike johnson and so much more. jen, thank you. >> i have a feeling! thank you so much, lawrence. >> thank you, jen. appreciate it. thank you. coming up, donald trump's lawyers rushed into court today in new york to appeal a gag order. maybe rushed is the wrong word, since they missed the deadline. that is next, with andrew weissmann and barb mcquade. mcquade. dex. which means mr. harvey... could picture the perfect night. we're delivering more happy for the holidays. i got this $1,000 camera for only $41 on dealdash. dealdash.com, online auctions since 2009. this playstation 5 sold for only 50 cents. this ipad pro sold for less than $34. and this nintendo switch, sold for less than $20. i got this kitchenaid stand mixer for only $56. i got this bbq smoker for 26 bucks. and shipping is always free. go to dealdash.com right now and see how much you can save. there are some things that go better... together. burger and fries... soup and salad. like your workplace benefits and retirement savings. with voya, considering all your financial choices together can help you 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that judiciary to do at a moment when we're watching the former president and members of my party claim that judiciary somehow weaponized against us. we need the courts. we need the judicial system. we need the rule of law to function. that means you have to have a president, in particular, who take seriously his obligation to uphold it. >> our discussion now, andrew weissmann, former fbi general counsel, -- eastern district of new york. he is the co-host of the msnbc podcast prosecuting donald trump. also with us, barb mcquade, she is former u.s. attorney and a law professor at the university of michigan law school. she is also the co-host of the podcast, hashtag sisters in law, both msnbc legal analysts. andrew, your reaction to what you just heard from liz cheney. >> so, three branches of government, and i think liz cheney had it exactly right, there is one branch that has almost consistently seen people rise to the occasion and take their oaths seriously, whether talk about judge engoron, o