>> that's how you know it's real. one take with our postal worker friends. you can follow me on tiktok at ari melber. now time for joy reid. tonight on "the reidout" -- >> a lot of threats. wishing death upon me. telling me that i'll be in jail with my mother, and saying things like be glad it's 2020 and not 1920. >> it was lies from rudy giuliani and others that led to those threats against shaye moss and ruby freeman. today, shaye moss took the stand in the trial to determine how much giuliani will have to pay in damages. also tonight, president biden tells president zelenskyy he will never walk away from ukraine. but many republicans are sure willing to walk away and give putin a big victory. i'll talk to senator raphael warnock about that and much more. also tonight, cassidy hutchinson joins me on the danger that donald trump poses if he gets a second presidency. plus, the fallout over congressional testimony of university presidents, and why it's a disingenuous argument this was all about anti-semitism. but we begin tonight in the trump world of alternative facts where the twice impeached four times indicted former president and his allies continue to believe if they just say something enough times then somehow poof, it becomes true. case in point, rudy giuliani, who was in the second day of his civil trial to determine the amount of damages he'll have to pay to two georgia election workers he defamed after the 2020 election. even though he's already been found liable for defamation, giuliani has continued to claim that he was telling the truth. >> whatever happened to them, which is unfortunate for the people overreacting, but everything i said about them is true. >> do you regret what you did to ruby freeman -- >> of course i don't regret it. i told the truth. i perhaps rudy's own lawyer didn't get the memo about that alternative fact, considering it contradicted what that lawyer was saying in court, calling the election workers good people who did not deserve what happened to them. today, one of those workers shaye moss, provided dramatic testimony on how giuliani's false allegations forever changed her life. fighting back tears at several points during her testimony, moss described the relentless harassment and fear of violence directed at her and her loved ones. quote, i was afraid to my life. i literally felt like someone was going to come and attempt to hang me and there was nothing anyone would be able to do about it. donald trump also tried to create his own alternative fact today on why he declined to testify yesterday. over claiming over the weekend he had nothing more to say, today, trump posted that he did in fact want to testify, but could not do so fully because of the gag order in the case. remember, the gag order in this case only prohibits trump from making statements about the judge's law clerk who cannot defend herself. why that was pivotal to trump testifying is as confusing to me as why anyone paid money to attend trump university. today, trump is also facing questions about one of his criminal trials, the classified documents case in florida. which we all know he will never face as it is being overseen by the trump friendly judge aileen cannon. cnn is reporting on the repeated attempts by trump and his associates to cozy up to a longtime former mar-a-lago employee who quit after the fbi searched the resort last summer and before charges against trump were filed. according to cnn, this employee was also a witness to several of the episodes special counsel jack smith included in his federal criminal indictment. quote, he had moved several boxes for trump and was also privy to conversations referenced in the indictment between trump and his two codefendants. mar-a-lago property manager carlos de oliveira, and walt nauta, putting the employee in a unique group of staffers who could be in a position to provide valuable information to investigators. the outreach included a direct call from trump as well as offers to pay for his legal representation, complimentary tickets to a golf tournament and reminders he could get his job back if he wanted it. joining me is lisa reuben and glenn kirschner, normer federal prosecutor. thank you for being here, both of you. here's the cnn story. it is, lisa, quite a tale. and what struck me was the sort of persistence, let's say, of deole avara in particular in going at this employee multiple times. showing up at parties and events with them, inviting them to come back and work for trump. saying no, no, people around trump saying let us get you a lawyer. is that witness intimidation? >> you know, joy, that's a hard question to answer. it certainly is on the border of witness intimidation. the other thing i think shouldn't be neglected here is that the person is indeed a witness. and when you compare cnn's reporting today with previous reporting by "the new york times" in september about another former employee repeatedly contacted with respect to offers of attorneys, for example, or you even compare it to the indictment in this case, where someone who goes by trump employee five seems to have a lot in common with the subject of cnn's reporting. it's pretty clear that the person who is implicated in cnn's reporting is not just a casual witness but somebody who might be at the very center of the case that the special counsel's office would hope to put on if and when this case goes to trial. >> right, and glenn, because the thing is, i don't understand walt nauta. these are low level people, i don't know how much he's paying them, but they seem to be proactively acting to make sure everyone stays on side. that everyone stays in trump's good graces and that they stay in the camp. i don't see how that necessarily hurts trump, but it seems to me that people like walt nauta are in so much legal jeopardy. it's more likely he'll go to jail than trump in this case. can you make sense of them trying to seemingly pressure another witness to, i don't know, act in trump's behalf the way they are? >> i can, joy. when i handled large rico cases in the courts of washington, d.c., we had any number of defendants who were part of the criminal organization, the enterprise that we were prosecuted and no matter what we tried to do, no matter how much we tried to appeal to the very real probability that they might go to prison for the rest of their lives if they opted not to cooperate with the prosecutors and testify against the bigger fish, many of them continued to hold fast. in fact, some of them walked into court and took what are called soldier pleas. a soldier plea is somebody who is so entrenched and devoted to the criminal organization and the head of the criminal organization that they will plead guilty to every count in the indictment without any benefit because they're not willing to cross the boss. that is what it feels like is going on here with the walt nautas and perhaps others who will forever remain loyal to donald trump, and that's fine because jack smith has enough other evidence to prove these charges beyond a reasonable doubt. >> that judge has no loyalty to them. she may try to stop trump from going to trial, but she's not going to stop them. let's go to rudy giuliani. seeming of people who want to bring on more legal problems than they already had. here's what politico writes. they may hav defamed them again, theseye ms and her mom. when the trial en on tuesday morning, an incredulous judge said the comments he made saying i didn'tli i told the truth about this two women, could support another defamation claim. i'm naultd sure how it's reconcilable. this has taken a bit of a toll on him. he's almost 80 years old. there are health concerns for mr. giuliani. so, lisa reuben? they're saying he's old and has health concerns. he's younger than joe biden. is that a way to get out of a defamation free card, he's old and not well? >> no, particularly whereas here the liability has already been established. this is a trial, joy, as you know, that's for damages only. because rudy giuliani already has a liability judgment against him. but the other thing that i would add is continuing to defame someone after you have had that liability adjudicated, that can be part and parcel of a damages award, particularly a punitive damages award. so if you have been told you already defamed someone, and you continue to spew the same lies, in court, it's fully entitled to consider that in awarding the punitive damages. indeed, donald trump himself may face the same situation in the second e. jean carroll trial that ope in january. >> yeah, andet me read to you from "the washington post." the attacks on the election workers. many messages called ruby freeman and shaye moss traitors. other said they should be hung from trees, close enough to the capitol to hear their necks snapped. it just -- the only argument that we're hearing from the other side, glenn, is that it will ruin giuliani financially if he gets a big fine. again, so what? these women were subjected to death threats. >> not only so what, but so be it, he should be financially ruined because i was taken aback, even knowing who rudy giuliani is and whou he's behaved, on the courthouse steps at the end of the session yesterday, he defamed then again. he said no, it's true, they were involved in changing votes. this is somebody who is on trial for robbery committing a robbery on his way into his trial. i mean, it is insane, and his lawyer may have said, he's 80 and i can't control everything he does, but you know what, rudy giuliani can control what he does. he chooses not to. he doubles down on his racism and his defamation. and putting these women's lives in jeopardy. and i would just press play on that clip from yesterday for this jury and say, ladies and gentlemen, in case you ever thought rudy giuliani would learn his lesson, watch what he said yesterday. i think that is relevant to not only the defamation issue generally but to the damages. >> let's go realuick to the d.c. case. socases, so little time. the special counsel is going to use trump's phone, so his phone data, it could reveal day to day details of hifinal weeks in office, including his twitter habits and any aides who had access to his devices. if trump didn't tweet it's going to be wild himself, does that help him in some way? >> yeah, that is why, you don't just rely on media accounts that donald trump tweeted, for example, come to d.c. on january 6th, will be wild, or mid-attack on the capitol, that donald trump tweeted, mike pence didn't have the courage to do what he should have done. the message there, joy, was clear. get him. and his foot soldiers erupted into chants of hang mike pence, which was kind of okay with donald trump, according to witnesses. so yeah, we don't just rely on media accounts as prosecutors. we have to drill down, get the data, have to get the cell site information, which will tell us not precisely, but in a certain area where the phone was at the time it was being used to post these inflammatory messages. so all of that has to be packaged up and presented to the jury during the course of the trial. >> yeah, was it in his tiny little fingers or not. let's talk about this supreme court case. which is going to be in some ways hell for these justices because it put them right back in the center of politics. either way, there's going to be a lot of people mad about what they decide. seven democrats are now saying that clarence thomas specifically ought to recuse himself. that seem logical given his wife was one of the insurrections that was part of the plot. chances he does it? >> no. absolutely no. clarence thomas is unrepentant about his own ethical issues and problems. i don't believe that clarence thomas believes he has any trouble with respect to his wife. they believe that they have some separation here that the rest of us can't see. >> yeah, they definitely believe they're above to law, but he's not above taking a few pricey gifts. he loves that. thank you, lisa reuben and glenn kirschner. up next on "the reidout," former trump white house aide and key january 6th committee witness cassidy hutchinson gins me to share her fears about a second trump presidency. "the reidout" continues after this. 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>> well, to start with that, i want to be careful because i do agree and i have been very vocal about talking about how he is re-elected, it is a step towards a dictatorship in the united states. but since i have last discussed that, he has come out and almost made light of it. and i was on the inside, i do know how donald trump likes to message. he messages about things when he's afraid of them. this is speculation but i'm pressed to think he sees this message is working and it's reaching an audience. we do need to sound the alarm bells on this. we need to bring attention to it. we need to do in a responsible way, because if we don't, then he's going to continue making light of it. and amplifying this rhetoric when it's extremely dangerous. everything trump says is extremely dangerous. he has said extremely dangerous things for years that have gotten people killed. and as we reach this next election cycle, i truly believe that if he is re-elected, then the likelihood this is the last election that we are voting under our constitution is very, very likely. all of that being said, you know, donald trump has showed us who he is and told us who he is for a long time. at the end of the administration, he talked about implementing schedule f, which is essentially a program where he would be able to fire up to 50,000 civil servants and replace them with loyalists. if reports are accurate, there are also groups that are putting together databases of trump loyalists to backfill those positions. so right then and there, we're already looking at a government that is going to be completely stacked with new government employees that aren't tenured and people who are inherently loyal to donald trump. that's not what our country is based upon. that's one element. he's also facing 91 criminal indictments. he could still be under -- the trial still could be under way in the next election cycle. or they could be settled in his first act in office could be a self-pardon. so we're looking at so many different angles of danger here, and i just think that the more that we talk about this, the more we amplify this, it's extremely important, but we also need to keep in mind that most americans need to be educated on this. and to open up the conversation about what this actually means and how it does very closely resemble a dictatorship at this moment. >> it's a really important question. a lot of people watching the show sort of already believe that. they are already fearful of a second trump term, but there are a lot of people who aren't. we made it through the first term. they're really not afraid of having a second term. jamie raskin gave testimony about this moment that you talked about in your closed door testimony about the kinds of people who were gathering inside of the oval and insuring that they left, these are the kind of people who would be. this is jamie raskin. >> here are text messages sent by cassidy hutchinson during and after the meeting. you can see, ms. hutchinson reported at the meeting in the west wing was unhinged. the meeting finally broke up after midnight. during the early morning of december 19. cassidy hutchinson captured the moment of mark meadows escorting rudy giuliani off the white house grounds to, quote, make sure he didn't wander back into the mansion. >> the very kinds of people who are being described as unhinged would be the administration. and i would anticipate that donald trump would probably release from prison people like enrique tarrio, people like members of the proud boys and oath keepers. they would be back on the streets. is that something that you think about? and that's probably what would happen, no? >> i do agree with that. i agree he would bring in people who are extremely loyal to him, and people who are arguably dangerous people. the enrique tarrios, people associated with the proud boys and extremist groups. i don't want to give them oxygen because that's such a long conversation we could have hopefully another day. but there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that donald trump would bring in people that he knows are loyal to him, and that will not say no to him. he will bring in people at a senior level, midlevel, and even entry level employees who are not going to push back