guests, lewis black. >> you got so angry tonight you actually shook your microphone off. >> did i really? >> i've never seen that happen before. it actually blew off you. also only in america, what i've learned about passions on both sides of this issue. this is piers morgan tonight. good evening. we begin with a big story. tonight president obama comes out in favor of gay marriage. listen to what he told abc news' robin roberts. >> at a certain point i've just concluded that for me personally, it is important for me to go ahead and affirm that i think same-sex couples should be able to get married. >> contrast that with what mitt romney said afterwards. >> my view is that marriage itself is a relationship between a man and a woman and that's my own preference. i know other people have differing views. this is a very tender and sensitive topic, as are many social issues. but i have the same view that i've had since -- well, since running for office. >> so tonight's big story, president obama's support for gay marriage. how much of it is personal, how much is political. is this a game-changer in the run for the white house? i'll ask a man with a lot to say on the subject. frank, a momentous day. before you say anything, i want to just read out what you wrote this afternoon after hearing this news. very powerful words, i felt. you said i think about how it would have felt to me when i was 16 and fearful and often deeply, deeply depressed to hear a president say what ours did today. i can't imagine it in the three decades since our country has traveled an enormous distance and today is a poignant and compelling marker of that. really strong words there which i think will resonate with many, many, particularly quite young gay people who have been through a similar experience that you have in your life. tell me how you felt when you heard the president say those words? how did you personally feel? >> i was -- i was sitting home alone. i was teary, i have to say. i mean we're going to hear a lot, probably tonight, over the coming days about what he didn't say. did he go far enough, how long did he wait to say this. but for right now, what i'm focused on is the president of the united states just said he stands fully with gay and lesbian americans. when i heard him say it, i was teary. >> it was a seismic, historic moment. i mean one of the biggest, i would say, in terms of any kind of social, civil issues since the civil rights movement. and i think the fact that you had the first black president saying this as well showed really how far america has come. an extraordinary day. >> i think the symbolism is meaningful and extraordinary, yeah. >> it really is. it would have been unthinkable a few decades ago. in terms of what happens now, the critics will be jumping up and say, okay, this is all very well but he's made it clear it should be left to the states to decide whether they bring in gay marriage. we've already seen in north carolina steps being taken by certain voters in certain states to try and guarantee that it doesn't come into their state. what do you think this will do to the debate in america? >> well, i mean the presidency above everything else is a bully pulpit. this is a decision that ultimately is left to the states. i don't think we're going to see this year or maybe even next a tide of states legalizing same-sex marriage, but i think we're going to hear and see the discussion shift ever so slightly. the person who is our highest elected official just made clear finally at long last where he stands of the and i think that will in ink mental but definite ways shape public opinion over the months and years to come. >> tell me this, frank. is it really in the modern world, is it sensible, is it right, does it feel fair that you can have in america with all these states different laws in different states? is it not time that that whole system was turned on its head so the president can say if he wins the race to become president, he has the right to say i want it to be law in the whole of america that gay marriage is legal, and other social issues. does this not illustrate in my view the futility of a state system, where you can travel around america and you can see legally gay married here, not legally gay married there, legally gay married here? >> no, it's a big problem. and because of things like the defense of marriage act, which our last democratic president signed into law, you can be married in one state, move to another and suddenly your marriage isn't recognized and means nothing. no, it's a big problem. i think we have to have a discussion from this time forward now that we know where the president stands. we always knew where he stood but he wouldn't say it. i think we have to start talking about what can be done at the federal level, that can begin to chip away at that patch work and address this as an issue of justice that knows no state boundaries. for today i want to focus on what the president said, which is so extraordinary and meaningful to me and millions of other americans. >> it was unbelievable. i was on twitter at the time and it just blew up. everyone around the world celebrating or reacting or criticizing, whatever it may be. it just exploded all around the world, all corners of the planet. and i think that that showed the importance of it, the significance of it. >> absolutely. >> how much do you think barack obama got bounced into this? my theory of the joe biden interview on the weekend is the vice president of the united states doesn't just calmly come out with comments like he did without the president at least being aware. i mean it seemed to me they were testing the water with joe biden and quite like what they saw in the reaction so the president decided, right, i'm going to seize the moment. >> i don't know that i agree with you on that. i think that joe biden is not the most disciplined vice president or speaker in the world. i don't know that -- it doesn't feel to me like there was a decision he would say this on sunday and they would maybe have the president doing what he did today by today. it doesn't feel to me like that. it feels to me like maybe there was enough of a discussion in the administration about the president taking this position by the end of the year before the election that it sort of -- it's what led to joe biden getting ahead of the administration and getting ahead of himself. the way this week played out, it felt much more frenetic than something that was choreographed specifically. >> politically, where does this leave barack obama against mitt romney? the sense that in 1996 barack obama said i'm fully supportive of gay marriage and then over the next 15 years, he reinned back and now he says he supports it again. this, you might argue, is classic political flip-flopping of the exact kind that you would expect they would go after mitt romney on as his weakness. does this make barack obama a flip-flopper and does that help mitt romney come november? >> i don't know whether it's going to help mitt romney come november. it's going to be really interesting to see how this plays out. does it make barack obama a flip-flopper? a little bit of one. but you show me a politician that's not a flip-flopper. i don't find the flip-flop stuff when we direct it at mitt romney to be the most compelling line of argument because i think politics is an arena of much flip-flopping. >> it is. it's always harder, i think, with the flip-flopping if you start with one firm view, then go to another and then go back to the original one. but anyway for now, frank, it is a momentous day and i'm glad that you stressed that. thank you for joining us. phil donahue, president of the catholic league and chad griffin, incoming president of the human rights campaign. welcome to you both. let me start with you, chad, if i may. what is your reaction to what happened today? >> it's astonishing what president obama did today. a lot of people out of washington are giving the political reaction. but to lbgt people across the country, it was a very personal and emotional reaction. the president today didn't just say that he supports gay marriage, he did it in a way by describing what brought him to that point. his two daughters, his wife, people in the military who don't have the same rights as their colleagues, marines, navy officers. but he's already impacted the lives of millions of people across this country, piers. every single light lgbgt people get in their beds, turn out the light and instead of going to sleep like their friends and colleagues, they stay awake and stare at the ceiling fearing the next day. what the president of the united states said today is that he cares for them. he is their president, he is standing up for them and he believes that they too are equal under the law. and that is incredibly significant. i also think that it is the -- we will never have another president, democrat or republican that, opposes gay marriage. >> let me turn to bill donahue. you don't agree with this. what was your reaction to what the president did today? >> well, it all started with our friend, mr. joseph biden, from delaware on "meet the press." he brought the guy out and asked to come clean. as you said obama has always liked the idea of two men getting married. he had to change because he wanted to become president and he said he invoked his christian moorings. now today he had to wiggle with that. so he said well, i'm going to invoke the golden rule. the problem with the golden rule idea is that it covers the marriage of patricia and alan muth. they are brothers and sisters. they went into the courts and argued that they have a right to get married. now, i want to ask this gentleman here, does he have a problem with that? >> okay. well, do you have a problem with that? >> look, the gentleman brings up the golden rule of the and the golden rule really is something that most all of us were taught. >> what about the muths? what about the couple, the brother and sister who want to get married? do you have a problem with that, sir? >> i find -- >> answer his point. >> sure. i find what he's saying to be ridiculous. >> it's in the courts. >> i don't think any americans would support that. this is about two loving couples -- >> you discriminate then, don't you? >> that want a lifetime commitment -- >> let me ask you, bill donahue, what essentially is your problem personally with two loving americans getting married? >> it's absolutely very simple. i have a doctorate in sociology from nyu and i know what the literature says. the literature is definitive. there is one gold standard. one gold standard for children. that is there's no substitute for a marriage between a man and a woman. i want the law to discriminate against straight people who live together. i used to call it shacking up, now it's called cohabitation. i want the law to discriminate against all alternative lifestyles, against gays and unions. i want to promote and put in a privileged position. that is a petition of marriage between a man and woman which has been shown over and over and over again to be the gold standard, the blue chip standard. why in the world would we want to relativize marriage. >> one in three marriages, heterosexual marriages ends in divorce. are these the kind of marriages that you prefer? >> no. >> to a gay couple that have been together 20 years? >> it's not just about love. a child needs a mother and a father. on sunday, we celebrate mother's day. what are you going to say to the kid, you people who love the politics of inclusion, who has been excluded because he has two fathers. >> but this is where you sound a bit like an old dinosaur, bill. >> no, no, no. >> let me have my say. let me have my say. i've got four kids. >> right. >> this is what you say to them. you know what marriage is about? marriage is about two loving people who are going to love their child. >> right. >> there are many, many straight parents in america who abuse their children. just because you're straight it doesn't make you any better as a parent than someone who's gay. why would it? >> well, because, as i've tried to say to you, the social science evidence is on my side, not on your side. we know the blue chip south dakota is. >> what is the social science evidence? >> excuse me, piers, look, alan and patricia muth wanted to get married, they're brother and sister. you tell me that if people love each other, if that's the only basis upon to have marriage, you cannot stop incestuous marriages. you cannot do it. >> bill, let's just get back to your views of gay people, all right? >> no, we never talked about my views of gay people. we were talking about the institution of marriage. you never asked me about gay marriage. >> have you got children? >> yes, of course. what kind of question is this? >> what if -- i ask the questions, it's my show. what if one of your children said, dad, i'm gay. what would you do to them? >> i would love them because the catholic church teaches that all people, gay and straight, should be loved. they're children of god. that's a separate question from the institution of marriage. should we just relativize it. look, i am a veteran. if we give veterans status and benefits to people who are nonveterans, we have devalued and depreciated the status of a veteran. if marriage is the best institution for children, which is run by a father and a mother, not two fathers and not two mothers, mother's day is coming up, say it again, then we should discriminate in its behalf. it's very simple. >> well, let me give you the last word, chad. >> let me just say that what president obama did today is consistent with where the majority of american people are. >> no, it's not. >> we're a growing number of democrats and republicans from dick cheney to ted olson to laura bush. it is consistent. it's where the country is headed and i expect in not the too distant future, people like the activists here against me today will soon regret these words. i believe too will evolve to the side, the most american of all views, and that is equality and freedom. president obama put us one step closer to that today. >> chad griffin, bill donahue, thank you very much both very much. >> thank you. just yesterday clay aiken said he wished president obama would, quote, hurry up and evolve faster. clay, you must be pretty happy that he reacted so quickly? >> i am. i feel so empowered. >> i mean a big day for every -- you know, every gay american. a big day for every american in many a ways, whatever reaction you had to it. how did you feel when you heard the news? >> you know, it is a little bittersweet. i'm in north carolina and was really disappointed with the way the amendment initiative vote went yesterday here in north carolina. but it's very promising to hear president obama finally come up and speak out on something that's so important. and i think that the groundswell, the energy that was behind a lot of the activists and the people who were important in the vote here yesterday in north carolina. that energy made its way to washington and president obama realized that this was the time to speak up and to speak out on the freedom for everyone to marry. >> when you hear bill donahue, the president of the catholic league, i'm a catholic, joe biden is a catholic. when you hear him say if one of my children is gay i would love them, et cetera, et cetera, but clearly the extension of his argument is i wouldn't ever let them get married. fine, i'd love this little sinner but they couldn't have the same rights as my straight children. to me that's where the whole argument starts to crumble. i'd respect it more if he said i hate gay people other than this wishy-washy nonsense. well, i would love them, of course i would. really? >> i was worried about coming on here and looking foolish tonight and there's no way that i can now because the standard has dropped to the floor. i -- you know, i was listening to that interview and i thought to myself, you want to discriminate against straight people, i'm assuming he would be interested in outlawing divorce then because there's nothing that disrespects the institution of marriage more than divorce, and the divorce rate in states that have legal same-sex marriage is far lower than the divorce rate in states that don't. >> i just find it extraordinary that in north carolina, your state, that people feel strongly enough when there's economic crisis, there are wars, there's famine, they want to go out and vote for their right to absolutely guarantee two loving gay people can't get married. what is wrong with them? i mean seriously? i disagree with my wife about all sorts of views. >> in north carolina, we really -- we really held off on this for a long time. we were -- the people in charge of the general assembly for the last 150 years have been able to keep this off the ballot. it was a switch in the general assembly, the republicans took over control after 150 years out of control and it was one of the first things they did here in this state. they decided that they wanted to put something on the ballot that i think they believed would energize their base. i'm not sure that it will do exactly what they want. because i think that a lot of north carolinans are now learning what this vote was. yesterday the paper talked about people coming out of the polling places saying i'm absolutely against gay marriage. i'm okay with civil unions, but i'm not for marriage so i voted for the amendment and they didn't realize until now they're going to start realizing that this amendment here bans civil unions, it bans domestic partnerships for both gay and straight couples. as people realize that this amendment was written in a way that was sort of deceptive, i think they're going to see -- i think you'll see a groundswell of support to start the process of going ahead and repealing it. >> yeah, i think it may be time to wake up and smell the coffee in north carolina. anyway, clay, thank you for joining me. coming up, my interview with jesse tyler ferguson and next the top new york city politician whose marrying her partner in just a few days. 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[ male announcer ] it's a network of possibilities -- helping you do what you do... even better. ♪ it wouldn't dawn on them that somehow their friends' parents would be treated differently. it doesn't make sense to them. and frankly, that's the kind of thing that prompts a change in perspective. >> back now with more on our big story, president obama comes out in favor of gay marriage. joining me now is christine quinn, new york city council speaker. she said today's remarks by the president are a turning point and she has a pretty good reason for believing that. she's marrying her partner, kim, on may the 19th. welcome, christine. both your fathers are walking you down the aisle, which is a pretty amazing event. >> it is. kim's dad is 86, mine is 85. they're both world war ii veterans. kim's dad a marine, mine a navy veteran. both of us lost our moms when we were teenage girls, so it's really an amazing thing that new york passed this law, this equality step last year in, time for the both of these men to get