seats of government, the seats of power, and embarks on a campaign, a political intimidation, in order to secure outcomes that personally benefit him. and that at the core is part of the sticks of our democracy that are before us today. because once rule of law goes out the window, it is not something that is easy to get back and it is very much a part of the decision that we have to make before us in the next few months. >> congresswoman alexandria ocasio-cortez, congressman jamie raskin, thank you for your time tonight. i really appreciate it. that is all in on this tuesday night. alex wagner tonight starts now. >> we have new exclusive audio from the supreme court historical society that lauren winsor has given us and we will be playing that in the hour, so stay tuned. >> i will pick >> like i said, exclusive never before heard audio recordings of justice samuel alito speaking to an undercover progressive activist. that is what we have tonight. that is in addition to the bombshell recordings that were released yesterday and we will definitely want to hear these recordings when we play them. if you have been wondering how those secret tapes were made in the very first place, how activists and judges on the highest court in this land, how they came to mingle behind closed doors? the answer to that begins almost 10 years ago to this day when the supreme court handed down a major decision. >> reporter: supporters of the hobby lobby cheered today's victory. the oklahoma family that owns the chain of 500 craft stores claims that providing insurance coverage for some forms of contraceptives under obamacare would be the equivalent of paying for abortion. the court called the rolling startling and said it will allow companies to opt out of any law they judge incompatible with their sincerely held religious beliefs. >> the hobby lobby decision. the majority opinion was written by justice samuel alito and it was one of the first signs that conservatives on this court were willing to go after reproductive freedoms no matter the consequence. in the wake of the dobbs decision 10 years later, hobby lobby seemed sort of like the canary in the coal mine in more ways than one. in november 2022, the new york times offered key reporting about how the hobby lobby decision came to be. for years before the court heard the case, conservative christians have been engaged in a campaign called operation higher court. that operation was to personally court and influence the supreme court's conservative justices. that effort was spearheaded by a man named reverend robert shank who would recruit christian couples who he called stuff missionaries to gain access to the judges and to impress upon them the importance of conservative christian values. here is how the new york times described one of their strategies. reverend gave his stuff missionaries close instruction, the justices were more likely to let their guard down at the supreme court historical society annual dinners because they assumed attendees had been properly vetted. ca justice, boldly approach, schenck told the couples according to a briefing document reviewed by the times. if given the opportunity, bear witness to biblical truth, but don't push it, he said. your presence alone at the historical society events telegraphs a very important signal to the justices. christians are concerned about the court and the issues that come before it. that strategy appears to have paid off. according to the times reporting, some of schenck's stuff missionaries were able to build enough of a relationship with justice alito and his wife, martha and, that they obtained advanced notice of the court's hobby lobby decision before it came out. that breach of that unprecedented breach foreshadowed the leaked dobbs decision striking down go versus wade two years later. that specific strategy of using the supreme court's annual historical society dinners as a way to gain access to supreme court justices, it turns out that too is relevant again, just this week. they historical society dinner is a yearly event where wealthy donors give money to a nonprofit dedicated to preserving the court's history. in exchange for their money, those donors get to rub shoulders with some of the justices and their spouses. as it turns out, conservatives weren't the only ones in on this arrangement. last week, progressive activist lauren winsor who happens to be a member of the historical society, bought a ticket for the event. she got in, she pretended to be a conservative donor attending the event with her husband. ms. lender then approach some of the conservative justices and secretly recorded her conversations with them. and busyness has not heard the full tape of what is recorded so we cannot say for certain where edits were made if any were actually made. tonight we have some brand-new, never before heard audio from that event to play for you and when you hear these new tapes, he will hear something familiar to what was on the tapes released yesterday. a justice in this case, justice alito, who is aggrieved and frustrated, who is nakedly partisan and totally unconcerned by appearing to be all of those things in front of a total stranger. remember what we heard yesterday. >> as someone who really cherishes my face, i just don't know that we can negotiate the way that needs to happen for the polarization to end. i think it is a matter of, like, winning. >> i think you are probably right. on one side or the other, one side or the other is going to win. i don't know. i mean, there can be a way of working, a way of living together peacefully. but it is difficult, you know, because there are differences on fundamental things that really can't be compromised. they really can't be compromised. so it is not like you are going to split the difference. >> and that is what i'm saying. i think that the solution really is, like, winning the moral argument. like, people in this country who believe in god have got to keep fighting for that, to return our country to a place of godliness. >> i agree with you. i agree with you. >> member, at this closed-door cocktail party, winsor was also able to get justice alito's wife, martha and, to explain her deeply personal motivation for flaying two insurrectionist flags in front of their homes. that is a story that has just scandalized this court and is reporting this week would seem to suggest that mrs. alito has no shame about what she has been doing , in fact, quite the opposite. after deriding who have been critical of the scandal, she made clear that these flags she flies are explicitly her form of resistance and response. >> i know what i want, i want a sacred heart of jesus flag because i had to look across the lagoon at the pride flag for the next month. and he is like, please don't put up a flag. i said i want to do it because i am deferring to you but when you are free of this nonsense, i am putting it up and i am going to send you a message every day, maybe every week i will be changing the flags, i made a flag in my head, this is how i satisfy myself, i made a flag, it is white and yellow and orange flames around it. in the middle is this word. in italian, it means shame. >> just to be clear here, justice alito has publicly stated his wife did not fly these flags to associate herself with the stop the steal movement or any other group. but it seems quite clear from the clip that his wife very much sees these flags as a form of political expression and a response to what she believes are liberal attacks. perhaps most concerning in these recordings, though, is martha-ann alito's five-year plan for revenge . >> it is okay because if they come back to me, i will get them. i'm going to be liberated, and i'm going to get them. there is a five-year defamation statute of limitations. >> i don't know what you mean by they. >> the media. >> okay, so martha-ann alito, the wife of a supreme court justice, that she has a plan to get back at the media by suing for defamation. and she thinks she will have the opportunity to do that in the next five years, when she is free of all this nonsense. is samuel alito's wife telling us something here about justice alito's retirement plans? and how concerned should we all be that a supreme court justices spouse is talking about the american media with open contempt? tonight we have grand -- brand- new audio from that same event where justice alito himself tells us what he thinks about the press. the other voice you will hear on this tape is an associate of lauren winsor's who was also at this event. >> i just wanted to ask you, why do you think the supreme court is so -- is being so attacked and being so targeted by the media these days? >> well, i think it is a simple reason. they don't like our decisions and they don't like how they anticipate we may decide some cases that are coming up. that's the beginning and the end of it. and there are -- there are groups that are very well-funded by ideological groups that have spearheaded these attacks. that's what it is. >> like who? >> propublica. propublica gets a lot of, you know, gets a lot of money, and they have spent a fortune investigating clarence thomas, for example. everything he's ever done in his entire life, and they've done some of that to me too. but, you know, they look for any little thing they can find, and they try to make something out of it. >> and be seen is reached out for comment from both samuel alito and his wife, martha-ann alito, but we have not heard back. joining me now is lauren winsor, progressive activist and the executive producer of the undercurrent. thank you for being here, i know you have had a busy week so far. we are so appreciative of all that you have set this far and all you have to share with us tonight. first, start with a new sound that your organization or your colleague has given us. there are two parts of this new tape that strikes me as concerning. the first is justice samuel alito saying that the media is attacking him because the media doesn't like how they anticipate the court has decided cases and may decide upcoming cases. was that a window into what may be coming down the pipe in the next two weeks? how did you interpret that? >> i mean, i definitely interpreted it as being a harbinger for bad things to come. >> did you get the sense when he was talking about the media and specifically citing propublica, for example, and their expensive investigators reporting about clarence thomas, that these stories are very much being shared behind closed doors at the supreme court? his media awareness seemed to be relatively high. >> it is very high, and he already had a sense of grievance when i first spoke with him in 2023, but it was much more pronounced this year i think in the two conversations that both allie and i had with him. >> can we talk about the context here? the fact is, you and your colleague both had conversations with the alitos. for those who have not been to historical society of us, is this what happens at them? we know two bombshell series of reports about conversation, advocacy campaigns that are happening between attendees and the justices on the supreme court. >> it is interesting, i had actually read that initial report in the new york times about reverend schenck and that is part of what played into my going in the first place but i did not read that report and think i should become a member now. it really was incited by the propublica reporting on clarence thomas and it is interesting that justice alito wants to rail about the money taken by propublica for investigating public servants while clarence thomas is not disclosing millions of dollars of gifts from gop donors and i have no idea what propublica's finances are but as someone who is an independent journalist, i would imagine that the money that clarence thomas is taking probably read the budget of propublica in any given year. >> is such a good point, what did you hear in justice alito's explanation for that? did you hear -- it almost seems as if there is certainly no contrition, but there is not even an acknowledgment that there was any wrongdoing on the part of clarence thomas in accepting potentially millions of dollars in unspecified gifts from conservative donors? >> it is not verbatim, but it is almost for meeting -- verbatim, making something out of any little thing. i don't consider any little thing to be buying my mother's house or paying for my nephew's tuition or getting a free rv loan. and these are all things he has accepted from gop donors. so, it would be a much different story if this were just about vacations he was taking with his wife and the family, most people would write it off as, it was a trip. most people would not consider traveling with friends or associates as being something that is that big of a deal, that is not actually what we are talking about with clarence thomas, is it? >> no, it is another order of magnitude, it would seem. and it has been going on for years. i guess some part of me is surprised that you, not knowing the alito's, you're just a random member of the historical society, is able to even get within shoulder rubbing distance of a justice and then draw him into conversation about some of the most incendiary topics in this country, which is a partisan divide. how did it actually unfold when you were in the room with the justice? >> it should be stated that in the guidance for the events, the historical society says, if you broach topics that are before the court, it may be grounds for you to be kicked out and so there is definitely a deliberative process in, how do i approach someone that, you know, not only are judges supposed to be really the height of discretion, the height of, you know, judgment, right? this is the highest court in the land, this is the supreme court justice, so i definitely went into this assuming that i was not going to get anything newsworthy. in 2023, i did not get anything newsworthy. but, i thought, you know, throughout the year that transpired, the media's scrutiny on justice alito has intensified so much and his grievance level is probably so much more peaked, that unlike clarence thomas who did not show up to this dinner but has been reported to have shown up to it many times, and he did not show up in 2023, by the way, that justice alito would probably attend anyway, even though he was undergoing this very intense media glare and sure enough, he was there and i think, you know, it was just something that i can't say what was in his mind so i don't know if in 2023, he had the same level of grievance and, you know, it changed over the course of the year? there are a couple options there. did it change or was it always there and he just felt more comfortable? >> was it hard to get him to talk? at the very end of this conversation, he says, are you a lawyer? i think he is talking to your colleague, i am not sure if it is you or her but it wasn't like you had offered any biographical information other than you had a husband who is not in the room. and i wonder why you operate that piece of information? how did you actually get into conversation with him? did you go up to him and start talking to him? >> the reason why i brought up my husband was that in 2023, i came with a male friend. the context of it was, we had a conversation after dinner, in 2023, my male friend was with me , he was not with me in 2024, so when i saw justice alito solo, it was one-on-one. it was, hi, there, my husband really wants to let you know that we are rooting for you, that you really have all the grit. the reason why i said you have all the grit, if it does not stick out to people, this is because donald trump had treated something out about how , you know, there should be more justices like samuel alito , with the grit that samuel alito has, so i felt like it was kind of a flag, if you will , to justice alito, that it was -- >> a safe space for him? >> a safe space, yes. i was trying to signal to him very coyly without saying trump because it goes back to the way the conversation -- to bridge a conversation with someone who has the highest level of discretion come you can't talk about partisan politics, if i had locked up in answer to talking about joe biden or donald trump, he would have shut down. so talking about polarization was really a way into the conversation that wasn't as aggressive but also indicative of what i was really trying to get out, was, is he acting on bias? and i really do believe that the american people deserve to know, is the supreme court so compromise that we do not really have impartiality, the bedrock of our judicial system? i think hearing it from his mouth, that he cannot be impartial, there are things that cannot be compromised, that needs to be fuel for journalists and for congress to say, tell us, what are the things that can't be compromised? >> lauren, look. you brought us into a room that few people are ever in and i think these tapes are revelatory and they are coming at a time of crisis for this court. we are not in having this conversation, thank you for bringing some of that conversation to our air, we are really appreciative, thanks for spending some time with me tonight. >> thank you, alex pick coming up this hour, we have new details about donald trump's presentencing meeting with his probation officer. it turns out he is being treated differently, just maybe not in the way he would like you to believe pick for scott hunter biden today joined donald trump in becoming a convicted felon facing possible jail time. does that mean the system is now en route? we will get into the republican response, coming up next. next. ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ chewy, a citi client, uses citi's financial expertise to help drive its growth and keep its supply chain moving, so more pet parents can get everything they need... right when they 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