well, there are 37 books, but of course, these are all the different translations and editions. and as you can see, it starts with eye of the needle. in german, that was die nadel. and comes up all the way to the armour of light. so, 37 books. yeah. in how many languages? a0 languages, altogether. total number of copies sold around the world? 191 million. so, as an author who is very proud of the fact that i've sold a million, i've got a long way to go. just making me a littlejealous, ken. you had written, though, 11 books before you had a bestseller. yes. eye of the needle was my 11th, and it was my first bestseller. you didn't start out writing books, though. i mean, that was not your very firstjob. i was a newspaper reporter. so, you wrote your first novel while you had yourjob on the newspaper, and you wrote it in the evenings in your flat in london. yes, that's right. as a kind of side job. you had a young child at the time, though. yes. actually, by that time, we had two. so, you had two young children, a full—time job, and you decided to write a novel that was published but didn't go very far. that's right. most people, ken, at this point would think, 0k, quit that. i'm going to focus on the day job rather than sticking at it. and it's your confidence to keep going that's interesting. i guess so. well, i think you need... don't you need that to finish your first book? i mean, you know, so many journalists have got 50 pages or 100 pages of a novel in a drawer. and what happens is, that when you begin writing your first novel, it's quite exciting. you can make stuff up, you think of names for characters. you have these... so much better than journalism. laughing: yes. and then after a few weeks, you begin to think, "well, tonight i think i'll go down the pub," and it begins to get boring. and you think, well, nobody�*s ever going to read it anyway. and that's how the 50 or 100 pages end up in the drawerfor, you know, the rest of the journalist's life. and i really, isuppose... and i think everybody who actually finishes a book has got a grain of obstinacy, and thinks, "oh, hell, i've started the thing and i'm jolly well going to finish it." and i certainly felt that, and i think most people who end up as novelists have that streak. so, wait, i've... this one you mentioned. eye of the needle. this was your 11th book. and my first success, yes. and you know what? i look at it now, and... there was a lovely interview with paul mccartney on the radio, and he was asked, "when you listen to those, you know, she loves you and i want to hold your hand, how do you feel about it?" he said, "well, i listen to those tracks and i think, �*clever boy.”' and i look at this book, which i wrote 50 years ago, and i think, did i really write that when i was 27? i mean, it's really good and, you know, the fact people are still buying it all these years later. isaid, "did i do that when i was 27? "what a clever boy." they laugh how many copies has this sold? oh, i don't know offhand. i think you're being modest. it's probably ten million. 0h. "it's probably ten million." 0k, quickly, because i have it here, and then we'll go and sit down. but i want to ask you about this one, because this is your best bestseller. and it was a departure for you. yes. it was your first medieval historical novel about the building of a cathedral. when you went to your publishers — and you were known for a certain genre — and you said, "i'm going to write this book about the building of a cathedral," what did they say? well, they said, "so, ken, it's about building a church?" "yes." "and it's in the middle ages?" "yes." "are you sure?" and one of the publishers actually approached my wife, barbara, and said, "you've got to stop him writing this book. "it's going to ruin his career." i wonder if that publisher still has a job. ken laughs well, you know, i felt very strongly that there was a terrific popular novel to be written about building a cathedral in the middle ages. that came as a bit of a surprise to my publishers. i'd written these thrillers. and they said, "look, you've done so well with the nazis and the kgb, so why don't you just carry on with that?" but i thought this could be better. and, you know, i think it's the only time in my life when i've been right and everybody else has been wrong. but it was a creative risk. yes, it was. you took it. oh, yes, i did take a risk. yeah, i did take a risk. and now that's the one that's sold more than any other copies. 29 million. i do know the numberfor that. 0k, yes. i'll put them back because i'm... enough of talking about how many books you've sold, ken. ken laughs it's fantastic. i mean, what a great wall and what a wonderful tribute. yes, this is how i've spent my life. this is what i've done. let's go and take a seat. so, in the course of writing so many books, ken, you've come to ideas about what makes a book, a novel, a successful novel. you sort of develop tricks of the trade, i guess. well, there's one — there are many tricks, of course — but there's one key factor, which is that the reader must share the emotions of the characters, so that when a character's frightened, the reader is tense, like this, and if something sad happens, the reader has a tear in her eye or his eye. and, uh... when something spooky happens, the reader might actually get up and go and make sure he really did lock the back door. that kind of thing. because that's what. .. we turn the pages because we care about what's happening to these people. and if you think about it, it's a very odd thing, because you know that i made it up sitting at my desk. and yet, when something sad happens, you're thinking, oh, dear. and that's really the magic of literature. and if you can do that, then, really, nothing else matters. and you're very clear about the genre of book that you're writing. you'd call it popular fiction. yes. and it's what i always wanted to write. it's mainly what i've read most of my life, although i am actually quite interested in other kinds of novel. but it's been the kind of fiction that has given me the mostjoy in my life. plot is fundamental in popular fiction, because something's got to keep the story turning over constantly. there must never be a moment when the reader thinks this is a good moment to put the book down, or this is a good moment to put the light out. and it's the plot that does that. it's the plot that keeps the story interesting and turning and changing all the time. but the involvement comes from the emotion. so... i start by working on the plot. but the most important thing is the reader caring about what's happening. talk about your heroes and your villains, and how you choose them. do your heroes have little bits of villainry in them? and do your villains have little bits of heroism in them? well, sometimes — but i don't think it's a rule. when i was writing the pillars of the earth, i've got this character, william hamleigh, and he's the worst villain. and there are several villains in that story, but he's the worst of them all. and i thought, you know, should i try and give him some saving grace? and... and then i thought, the heck with it — he's going to be absolutely out—and—out as black as coal. and interestingly enough, of all my characters, he's the one most mentioned in conversations with readers, and they say, "that william hamleigh, i wanted you to kill him off earlier." of course, with a character that good, i wasn't going to kill him off until the end of the book. but isn't it interesting that the readers, they didn't say to me, "surely he should have had some saving grace, there ought to have been something nice about him." they just totally responded to him. you deal with big questions and big actions, and big, often brave, bold characters, and i imagine that's no coincidence, that in a novel you need... a sort of mousy wallflower is just not going to be very interesting, who doesn't make big decisions. absolutely, yeah. cautious, timid people never get in trouble, and there's never a story to tell about them. no. and you start with the very first line, which often poses a big question, ora big... yes, yes. and sort of it goes from there. it's big and it's bold... yeah. i do think first lines are important. if i can, i want to write a first line, or maybe a first paragraph that makes the reader want to read the next sentence or the next paragraph. i mean, that's quite important. i'd say very... you know, people in book shops, you know, opening the book saying, "what is this about?" so, yes, i like a dramatic first line. and actually, probably, my best is in the pillars of the earth. "the small boys came early to the hanging." that's a good first line, because you don't expect small boys to be at a hanging. and it also gives you the feeling — which i wanted to give — that this story is taking place in a society that's quite cruel. and then you, with the armour of light, you touch on themes that i think are overtly political — the labour rights — which actually feel like very modern themes. i think, actually, often your books have modern themes, and maybe that's part of why we love them, because it's the universality of falling in love and loss and grief. but this one, the theme of labour rights and oppression of people who are sort of pushed down by the era that they're in. i don't know. it felt to me, ken, particularly apt of our time, somehow. well, there certainly are parallels, and the most important one is a technical revolution. and the armour of light is about a time when new machinery turned the lives of ordinary people upside down. and actually, new machinery has been doing that ever since the 18th century, really, hasn't it? and the current thing that's got people worried is artificial intelligence, and the worry that it will take away theirjobs and their livelihoods, and so on. and exactly the same thing was going on in the 18th century. there was also, in the 18th century, a terrible european war, and it went on for 23 years. please, god, the war in ukraine won't go on for 23 years, but it's possible. and finally, there was a cost of living crisis in the 18th century. now, in the 18th century, it takes the form of the price of bread doubling. and in those days, most families would buy the standard loaf, which was a alb loaf. and at the beginning of the story it's 7p, and by the end of the story, it's double that. so, there were those three similarities — new technology, a terrible war and inflation. and as you rightly say, that's exactly what we're looking at today. sal is one of my favourite characters. when i was reading it, the heroine of the armour of light, who is this wonderfully strong woman who starts at the very beginning of the book losing her husband, and takes on all of these challenges with her young son, and forms a union, and makes the best of these very difficult circumstances. but i found myself wondering, would history have had a sal? would you have had a heroine? would women have been in that kind of position in the middle ages? and i've... i'm asked that question a lot, because i do always write about women like this. but i think in every period of history, there are people who refuse to take on the identity that society is trying to give them. a small number of people, of course. they're the rebels. they are the ones that that say... everybody says the more you... a typical example would be saying to a girl who's pushing 30, "you really ought to get married, you know?" and she might say, "heck no, i'm not going to do that." now, most girls in the victorian era didn't say, "heck no," of course, but one or two did — and they're the interesting ones. the ones who do exactly what's expected of them, they're not worth writing a story about, they're too predictable. so, i like those kind of characters, and i think a few of them exist in every period of history. 0k, ken, we have something to show you which, i better just check we got the right things. oh, yes. this is very nice. ken follett, this is your life moment. yes, yes! that's me. i must be six there, i think. this is... this is you right here. yep. your mum and your dad and your... my sister, hannah, yeah. and this would have been in wales, where you grew up? yes, this is in cardiff, definitely, yes. i lived there till i was ten years old, so that's definitely where that is. and yourfamily was quite religious? very. they were extremely religious. we belonged to... middle class? yes, basically. i mean, they didn't have much money at that point, but they were basically middle class, yes. my dad worked for the inland revenue, and he eventually became a tax inspector. and you grew up in a household where there was not television? there was no tv, no radio. i wasn't allowed to go to the movies because that was part of their religion. it was a very puritanical sect that they belonged to. but i mean, every cloud has a silver lining. so, on saturday morning, the cinemas used to show movies for kids, and everybody i knew went on saturday morning. i was the only one who wasn't allowed to go. and of course, i was absolutely furious about it. but instead i went to the public library, and that probably helped me. what did your parents make of your success as a novelist? they had very mixed feelings because, of course, in my stories, people say things like, "oh, my god," and my parents think that's wrong. there is a verse in the bible — thou shalt not take the name of the lord in vain. and so they hated the fact that people said things like that. and, of course, there are very explicit love scenes in my books, and they found that very disagreeable. my dad read the books. he was a bit more broad—minded than my mum. my mum eventually discovered the reader's digest condensed books, and they used to... in one volume, they would put shortened versions of four books, four novels, and being the reader's digest, they would take out all the love scenes and all the swearing, and so on. a sanitised version. it was a sanitised... and my mum loved those. this is you as a cub reporter. yes. the ken follett that could have been. that's right. yes, that's right. well, that's about the time that i was writing eye of the needle. i was working as a reporter in the day, and then writing eye of the needle in the evening. and that was... that was the best typewriter you could get, i think, at the time. did you find it easy to write on a typewriter that didn't have a delete button? i have to say, i'm completely reliant on the delete button to write anything. i mean, the only way i can get my mind to allow me to put anything on the page is knowing that i can get over it. and with that, you had to tipp—ex it out, or white paste it out, or whatever it was you did in those days. of course, we didn't dream of the way you can delete on modern computers. i mean, that hadn't even been thought of. and, ken, if you hadn't been a writer, clearly you were going to be a rock and roll star. ken laughs you know, | it's hard to know, isn't it? i've been playing the guitar since i was 1a, and i play the bass guitar now, which is what i'm playing there. it's always been something that i've felt relaxed about because i don't have to be the best in the world at it. so, i play simple lines on the bass guitar, and i don't care if anybody�*s impressed so long as the band likes what i'm playing. that's the main thing. i think you look very relaxed. yeah, that's the truth. you look very happy. yeah, really enjoying it. yeah. hmm, a secret door. into the den. laughing: that's right. so, this is where it all... i love this, actually, by the way. these aren't real books, presumably, though. they're not real books. so, this is where all the magic happens? yeah. but you can write anywhere, ken. that's the truth, yeah. in the departure lounge, on the plane, in the car. although, i have to say, as a spot, this is not bad. this is the best place, yes. so, we're going to talk about the process and how it happens. yeah, yeah. 0k. so, ken, you've got your three screens — and i've always been interested in the process, you described it to me at dinner in washington years ago — but you have a very methodical approach to how you do the books. describe the process. so, this screen shows the first draft. draft a. on the right—hand side are notes from various people who have seen the first draft. and you'll see here somebody who works for me says, "i was not drawn in as quickly, nor did i read it as fast as the last two books." so, that's interesting, isn't it? mm. that suggests that the first chapter might be a bit ponderous. so, maybe you haven't got your plot twist every three to four pages that you like to have. yes, yes. so, i mean, that comment is right up at the top of the list of comments, because that was quite an important one. so, you wouldn't read that and think, "to hell with them. "i'm ken follett. what do they know?" laughing:— you would read that and think, "oh, what can i learn?" yeah, absolutely. "i'll take that back." 0h, absolutely, yes, yes. and then in the middle, this is the second draft. but what i would be doing is writing this second draft. and i key it. i don't take this and edit it and make marks on it. i take a blank sheet of paper in the middle, and then i start writing the whole book again. which must take longer than going over the first draft and just editing it? absolutely. well, it takes a full year. so, planning is a year, first draft is a year, second draft is a year. it sounds as if it's a chore that might not be essential, you know. and sometimes my publishers want to publish the first draft, but that's because their standards aren't as high as mine. and generally, after reading the second draft, they say, "i see what you mean." and you think by writing the second draft from scratch, you always end up with a better product? 0h, definitely. no question. i'm totally convinced of that. do you ever... ..get angsted about writing? do you ever suffer writer's block or feel... .."what am i doing," and have an existential crisis about it? i never have a crisis. but there is a moment in every book — and i've talked to other writers about this who have the same thing — there's a moment in every book where you're deep into it and you've written several hundred pages, and you look at it, and you think, "why the heck would anybody want to read this?" "what? what is so...?" and i know that what you have to do is, you have to press on. you have to put that thought aside and you have to say things like, "if it's not good enough, then i'll rewrite it and it will be better." but that's the nearest i come. you couldn't call that an existential crisis. it's just a moment of severe doubt. i think you are the least angsted writer i've ever met. ken laughs it's quite likely. early in my career i had an agent, and he said to me, "your only problem as a writer is that you're not a tortured soul." you love it. you love the whole process. ido, yeah. the whole thing. i'm completely absorbed by it. and, you know, to say i like my work, it's like saying i like my wife. i don'tjust like my wife, i adore her. and that's how i feel about the work. i'm absolutely into it. hello again. the weekend started off on quite a wet and a windy footing, thanks to storm elin. it did bring some heavy rain. we have still a number of flood warnings in force. a bit of localised flooding here on this picture in lancashire. now, the strongest winds from elin came through during saturday evening, just to the south of the centre of the low pressure. the strongest winds recorded at capel curig in north—west wales — 80mph gusts here. not far behind that, western cumbria's coastline got hit with a gust of 74mph at st bees head. now, the low pressure is now working out into the north sea and pretty quickly, we are seeing those winds die back down. still a bit of patchy rain to come through northern england and scotland. otherwise, the weather will become dry with some clear spells for most and not that cold a night — temperatures typically around 5—7 but down to about two degrees celsius in the colder spots in northern ireland. now, for northern ireland, england and wales, it should be a fine and sunny start to the day but quickly, cloud and rain will spread into northern ireland and this band of rain will then extend across england and wales. "rain at times" probably best summing up the weather in scotland. the rain bands are all associated with an area of low pressure that's over the republic of ireland, and that has been named as a new storm — storm fergus. it will be a mild day. temperatures for most 10—14 degrees but a bit cooler in scotland with temperatures stuck at around 7 or 8 here. we get some strong winds, then, working across wales during sunday night. gusts could reach around 60—odd mph around western coasts. and the remains of that area of low pressure still with us on monday, bringing cloud and patchy rain to start off the day, although the weather should improve as we head into the afternoon with most of us having drier weather with some breaks in the cloud, a bit of sunshine coming through. it continues to be on the mild side — for most, temperatures around 9—13 degrees but again in scotland, still looking a little bit colder — looking at around 6—8 degrees celsius here. through tuesday and wednesday, another area of low pressure crosses the country. once that's out of the way, we'll start to see pressure build from the southwest and that will really herald something of a more significant change in our weather patterns. so, still a bit more rain to come through during tuesday and wednesday. still relatively mild. then, we get a dip in temperatures later in the week. high pressure then takes over with the weather there settling down, becoming drier and sunnier. live from washington, this is bbc news. warnings that half the population of gaza is now starving — the un says conditions on the ground make it almost impossible to deliver aid. the us state department approves the potential sale of tank shells to israel, bypassing the usual congressional review. and, as washington debates further aid to ukraine, we speak exclusively to ukraine's first lady about her fears over future western assistance. hello. the un says half of gaza's population is starving, as israel's bombardment continues. the world food programme's deputy director says nine out of 10 people cannot eat every day. israel says it's doing everything it can to get more aid in, but conditions on the ground are making it almost impossible for aid groups to reach gaza. unicef�*s spokeswoman alexandra murdoch has more on the situation. by all the measures that you can think of, the situation for people in gaza is beyond crisis point. food is running out as you have reported, there is a severe lack of safe water, safe drinking water and this poses a particularly lethal threat to children. people are sleeping outside on concrete floors.

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