also held for thejoe biden presidential campaign. but we also understand that tickets to get into that particular event are a lot more modest in price, around 50 us dollars, they said. now on bbc news, nick robinson interviews plaid cymru's rhun ap iorwerth for panorama. we have all got a big decision to make about who leads the uk for the next five years, and about who has power and influence at westminster. you get the opportunity to have your say in the general election onjuly the 4th. on monday we heard from the prime minister rishi sunak. over the next few days and weeks we will be speaking to other parties. tonight, it is the turn of the leader of plaid cymru, rhun ap iorwerth. rhun ap iorwerth, welcome, thank you forjoining us. my promise at the start of this interview and all the interviews i am doing with party leaders is that what you say is going to be broadcast in full. we want to give you the chance to make your pitch and we want you to speak about the issues that are important to viewers and listeners and i expect you to do your best to answer them. it is lovely to be here in your front room, nick. it does feel like that. it is a year since you were appointed and something many people have heard of is that you work with labour and the conservatives to bring down the first minister of wales. does that tell us which side you are on? we owe everything to the people of wales and everything we do is on behalf of the people of wales. it is not a matter of building alliances with other parties and on the issue you touched upon there, we had a scandal in wales like we have never had since the advent of devolution. we have managed to steer clear of that financial scandal but it is hugely problematic for the labour government in wales and it is myjob as a leader of the welsh parliament to hold that government and the first minister to power. you saw the elections coming, not just this election, but the senned election. you had to pull out of the agreement with the labour party so that people know what plaid cymru is? some people would like political distinction between parties. in wales no one party has ever had an overall majority and parties have had to work together in all sorts of different ways. we have had labour and conservatives are working together on committees. the lib dems have been in coalition, we have been in a co—operation agreement with the welsh government because we go into politics to get things done. what happened when the first minister came in, he showed a change of direction and attitude towards the kind of radical things we were trying to put in, like the cooperation agreement, then there was the scandal on top of that and too many distractions and it was time to go separate ways. will you carry on until you get rid of him? can you get rid of him? we made it clear at conference last week that he should have resigned. somehow the first minister says it was not binding? i don't think anyone in wales can see the difference between a binding vote and a non—binding vote. when parliament expresses its view as it did, the right thing to do is to stand out. this is labour's all, this one. let's talk about the bigger and wider issues in this westminster election. first and foremost, when you hear the words plaid cymru, you always add, "the party of wales". what does that mean? do you want wales to be independent? you want to leave the united kingdom. if you got your way, how soon might it happen? the way i put it — quite often as i would have wales become independent tomorrow, but it is not about what i think. myjob is to get people interested, intrigued, curious, about what independence could mean. i have no doubt, i have believed it all my life, that if we are to remove those shackles of child poverty, economic stagnation that we have suffered in wales, we have to take it into our own hands. at the same time we are not at that point quite yet, so we are in the uk system where in this election we make the case so that we can make the right decisions for our public services and the economy and so on. on independence you use to put a date on it, your party put a date on it, i have got it here. the last manifesto that was produced by plaid cymru. a referendum on independence by 2026. is this gone? does it get ripped up? you can keep on tearing it if it is a date. all right, 2026 has gone. but if you have some sellotape to put together. we cannot fulfil our potential as a country until we take that step. what is fascinating now is there was a report on the future of wales and the government published a commissioned report led by rowan williams, the ex archbishop of canterbury, and a political scientist, saying there are options for the future of wales. we stay kind of where we are with devolution and we can have a federal future which is not easy with the size of england, or we can have independence. all are absolutely viable, it is just about expressing our desire as a nation whether we want to reach that potential and take on absolutely the risks of independence, but the risks we have of being in the uk is economic... i was looking at the polling and on the one hand round about a third is the highest of the welsh population who support independence. but when you say what is the most important issue, you give them choices, do you know what independence comes? it is 15th on the list of priorities. it comes behind, just wait for it, the don't knows. that assumes that independence is an end in itself, that we just want independence for the sake of it. independence is there in order to do those other things on the list. it is about growing the economy, so all these things are intertwined. a couple of questions on independence and then we will move onto those subjects that are critical to you and for this election. if there were independence, we do have to be a trading boarder? you don't like with brexit, you want wales back into the european single market. are you seriously saying that when wales becomes independent and there is a trading boarder separating swansea from swindon? the answer, do i want that kind of barrier? absolutely not. we put in some fascinating evidence by academics to the independent commission on the future of wales and wales already controls its own borders, we did during covid. what we want to make sure of is that the border is absolutely free in terms of trade and people. so many people cross the border all the time. the other thing that is really important, independence is not about breaking up the uk. independence is about building new relationships in the uk. many people would agree with me, it is not working well, so let's redesign it. whenjohnson talked about brexit he said, don't worry, it will work, it will be fine. you told people to put the forms in the bin. we have seen what happened with brexit, we have seen what happened in northern ireland where there is two types of trading relationships. absolutely, talking about brexit is we had the worst possible kind of brexit. i didn't want us to leave the european union, but we could have left the european union in a much tidier way that did not destroy the trading links we had with europe. my party wants customs union membership and single party membership and i find it devastating that the labour party, that used to agree on these things, but because of its lurch to the right they don't talk about it. if the rest of the uk was not in the single market, you would be like ireland, agonising about border trade. i think the whole of the uk would benefit from being within the customs union and the single market. i think the uk will go there. but wales will always have those close links. it seems strange saying it, they are our closest friends, our biggest trading partner and we want everybody on both sides of the border have it work smoothly, it is a simple as that. just for interest, would the king survive as head of state? it would be up to the people of wales. i am a republican and i have spoken about that, but i am more interested in the political development of wales. let's move on those big policy choices because you are not arguing you are going to be in government in westminster, but you could have influence. what are the issues you might be asked about? there is immigration. you have been very open that you are not comfortable with a lot of political debates on immigration. you have talked about wales being a country of santry. what do you mean by that? it is essentially about living up to our international obligations. we are signed up, the uk, to play our role, the sanctuary. the rhetoric we are hearing current immigration in the uk now seems to say that we should not be applying those international obligations. expressing our desire to be seen as a nation of sanctuary quite simply says, yes, we will do what we should do under international law. it is a simple as that. should wales take more people? 95,000 people on an asylum backlog, would you welcome any more of those coming into wales? what we need to do is we need to recognise we need some immigration. the vilification of migrants unblocked is no service to our health and care sectors and the economy that needs them. can you simply say that you think the country can't cope with the number of immigrants coming in legally, not across the channel? if you say, look, last year it was roughly two times the population of coventry that moved here, is that hostile? one of the problems we have is the sheer disaster of the way that uk governments have dealt with immigration, they have allowed the backlog to grow to the extent that it has. leaving european union has made it much more difficult to have those constructive discussions and programmes in place between european partners in order to deal with the migration issue. what i want to see is a change in the tone. unfortunately, we are seeing it across europe and in the wider world, there is an exploitation of the anxieties that people have. i hear all the time people are worried about the pressure of immigration on public services, but that is not really what the debate is about. it is... there will be plenty of people watching this interview and saying, it is not about how i speak, it is not the tone, but i am concerned to access to housing, access to public services. waiting for gps or problems getting a school place. they will say you are in denial about that. that is exactly what i am saying, where there are pressures, and the pressures on our public services exist quite separately from the issue of migration, we know our public services are not sustainable because of the cuts in public services by the uk government. but rather than blame migrants for that, and of course we need rules around migration, why don't we look at the way the uk government has allowed the degradation of public services to happen? lower immigration or not? to be honest, if we have proper procedures and application processing, the issue would be dealt with much quicker. is it lower or not? the level of immigration? do you cut it? i look at it from a watch perspective and we need people i look at it from a welsh perspective and we need people to work in the hospitality sector, we need people coming into higher education that currently have been blocked because of these changes. blocked because of visa changes. i would like us to set our visa rules and like us to get more people working into health and care. this is the practical application of discussing the migration issue rather than the polarisation, the othering of immigrants who have been forced into small boats because of the lack of safe routes to the uk. now, you may get your representatives in parliament if you have some to vote on those sort of issues. you also get to vote on the big issues of tax and spend. the big parties, labour and the tories, have been criticised for not being open enough. the liberal democrats also have pressure to cut spending. i make you not first minister of wales, i briefly met the prime minister of the uk. that is very kind of you. how do you balance the books? put taxes up, do you cut spending? what you do? it troubles me that we have a conservative government on the way out and labour in. we don't know that, nobody has voted. i will put a fiver on it. but the plans that they have for public spending and cuts essentially to public spending are fartoo similar. i want to have that honest debate, i want us to recognise that taxes is a good thing. we need taxes to be brought in in order to pay for public services. the kind of decisions i would make in that position would be to absolutely, not add burden on people who are on low or middle incomes who have really been struggling because of the cost of living crisis, because of trussonomics and mortgages going up, we have a number of proposals for bringing in more taxes. for example, making sure oil and gas companies pay more of a windfall tax, that those who have the huge amounts of wealth are targeted through a wealth tax. through a fair taxation system, we believe there are ways of bringing more money in in order to pay for public services. another big decision you might be involved in taking if westminster has to take these decisions is defence of the realm. you as a young bbc reporter were brought face—to—face with the threats countries could face, when you were in new york and 9/11. did you want the british parliament, did you think wales should have decided on war in afghanistan? we believe there should be a role for devolved administrations when it comes to major decisions on going to war. we think it's very important. would you have voted against that? the attack on afghanistan in the first place? i take myself back time and time again to those, that point in time when the world changed and the very, very clear wish led by america for revenge. revenge is dangerous and i firmly believe that is the case. of course military action had to be taken against people who were harbouring the kind of terrorists that showed what they could do in new york and elsewhere. there was a case for war in afghanistan? we had to come back to this issue of what exactly we are targeting and why. people who know the history of plaid cymru will know the history of support for pacifism. just interested in where you are is the party. now, with british weaponry going to ukraine, is that something you want plaid cymru and mps to vote for to support? let's put it in these terms. i believe strongly that an independent wales should have armed forces and would have armed forces. i believe that the uk as it stands should have well funded armed forces funded armed forces. you don't believe in a nuclear deterrent? i don't believe in investing £200 billion in the renewal of trident. in defence of terms we should be spending that money on strengthening conventional forces and on protecting those armed forces when they leave. it is important that we build all services for the 21st century and that has to include defence. we talked about nuclear, one quick question about nuclear back at home. your party has always opposed nuclear power and yet a new power station will be built in the home of the leader of plaid cymru and instead of opposing it, you are now are in favour of it. we have always had the position of no new sites and wilma is a very well—established side. my mother—in—law �*s manageress of the county. it has been a part of our economic story. the problem with wilma is the uk government scuppered plan for a new site but now it is preferred. it will not be on track now until 2040, 2050 so surely we had to concentrate on the things we can do now, which happens to be renewable energy. we are talking about the things westminster decides. there are many things the devolved welsh parliament and the senedd determines. you have talked about health for example. we could talk about schools. let's talk about them briefly both. a quarter of a century now we have had devolution. given the poor performance of the welsh nhs, 20,000 people waiting over two years for appointments in wales, just 200 in england, is devolution failing? devolution hasn't failed. devolution is just devolution. it is making sure we in wales have a voice over the public services that we need to depend on every day. we know the nhs in england is in all sorts of trouble. social care in england is in a very, very problematic state. i believe in devolution because i believe in us deciding on those major issues. the problem we have in wales is we have had 25 years of unbroken labour led government and it's not normal, and that kind of abnormal political landscape gives you risk aversion. it gives you a government that is prepared to admit they have got it wrong because that would be to admit they had been making mistakes. some of that time plaid cymru shared power with labour. more recently there was a cooperation. you are going back nearly 20 years but we have a cooperation agreement and people asked, what about health? can't you take the blame for health? the reason the nhs was nowhere near the cooperation agreement was we don't agree with labour's approach on health. we want a different approach on health, especially on the building of sustainability in the workforce. why are welsh schools the worst in international ranking for reading, maths, science, well behind the oecd. again, i agree with you. why? wales has a proud track record of being one of the first literary countries in the world. it troubles me that successive labour ministers have allowed that to slip. here is the difficulty for you because you can stand and criticise labour because they are running wales, but you are arguing for more powers for the senedd. more powers for a devolved welsh parliament and someone from outside might say, look, have these 25 years been successful enough to make a case? what we have is plenty of evidence to show that where devolved powers can work well, they make a real difference. on introducing free school meals for all primary school children for example, bringing in new legislation that helps people afford homes to buy or rent within their communities. that shows the power of devolution when it is the hands that are radical enough to use those tools and use them well. when we look ahead now to the need to devolve the criminaljustice system and policing, for very good reason, evidence reason is that we could devise systems that are built around welsh needs. i get excited about doing that and get severely depressed when i hear senior labourfigures again today saying, no chance you will get those powers, even though welsh labour agree with us. what do they mean if they cannot persuade bosses in england to do it? that is the argument you are having in this election, you have to persuade people who might be tempted to vote labour, tempted to say, it's time for a change, tempted to see the back of the conservatives. you had to say, vote for plaid cymru, and the simple answer is people will say, look, if you want a labour government under keir starmer, you will have two vote for a labour government under keir starmer. having covered politics for long enough, i think the evidence points in that direction but he will become prime minister regardless of how wales votes and that is a key fact for people to consider in wales. yes, there will be changed but what kind of change would you like it to be? would you like a huge labour majority that allows them to act with impunity and allows them to continue to do what they are doing that which is to ignore wales completely? or would you like to ensure plurality of thought and ideas in the houses of parliament through plaid cymru mps, who will make sure wales is not forgotten, that it will always be on the agenda. they are very prominent labour mps who represent welsh seats, thomas simmons, jo stevens, who would be at the heart of a keir starmer government and may be the best argument for wales is to have powerful figures at the heart of government. let's look at hs2. major rail infrastructure project in england, designated an england and wales project. we believe firmly that wales should be given a consequential share of funding for that, as scotland did. labour members in wales agree with us butjo stevens doesn't. so we had members from labour in wales sitting in the labour team in westminster who act as if they have forgotten they are representing welsh constituencies. isn't the problem for plaid cymru you call yourself the party for wales, you are a party of wales. the reform party reformed recently. you are about to celebrate your centenary in plaid cymru and they are ahead of you in the opinion polls. there is not a single square inch of wales that isn't represented by a plaid cymru member in the welsh parliament. that is because of proportional representation. you only when constituency seats in the west and north, not in the south and big towns and cities. that's not true. we have and we will again and we are represented in every single welsh region, including the self, east of wales, the north—east. plaid cymru represents and our message is relevant to all of wales. of course the first past the post system exchange very difficult. it is a perverse system, not many countries are left with this kind of system which kind of encourages two parties. it is not about blue or red when it comes to the kind of representation we want. a lot of people think plaid cymru is the welsh language party, not the party of wales. i think one thing that i am very proud of in welsh politics is the welsh language has ceased to be a politicalfootball as much as it would have been in the past. we need to build consensus for the welsh language and that is why every political party now thankfully has far more positive policies towards the welsh language. we are about all of wales, we speak people's language on health, education, the economy and that's the key thing. you know only too well the reason you are here, the reason you have been a leader this past year is that your party, like so many parties, has had its fair share of problems. there was a review into misconduct that found a culture of harassment, bullying and misogyny. you were deputy leader at the time. did you do enough? all of us have to ask ourselves, did we do enough? and i have put my hands up from the beginning because when i was asked this question on woman's hour, did i see something? i will not say no, i didn't see anything because the fact that we were not looking out enough for the problems in the party that led us to where we were. as so many other political parties found themselves in. this was our time and we took it seriously and the party has changed. you think you can build trust? it is up to people to decide that. i am confident that change has happened. thank you very much indeed forjoining us tonight on panorama. we are speaking to seven party leaders ahead of the election. on friday i will be joined by the leader of the labour party, sir keir starmer. that is on bbc one and bbc i player at half past seven. thank you for watching. welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, i'm arunoday mukharji. lets get you the headlines: a ceasefire plan for gaza hangs in the balance as the us says hamas proposed a number of changes. russian naval vessels arrive in cuba — in a move seen as a show of force amid tensions with the west over the war in ukraine. president biden arrives in italy for a g7 summit set to be dominated by the wars in ukraine and gaza. and — india defeats usa by seven wickets to reach the super 8s in the t20 cricket world cup.