hello. a very good thursday morning to you. now on bbc news, it's time for hardtalk with zeinab badawi. welcome to hardtalk with me, zeinab badawi, coming to you from barbados. i'm on an historic sugar plantation where enslaved africans toiled in backbreaking labour during three centuries of the transatlantic slave trade. barbados was one of the earliest and most profitable of the slave colonies in the caribbean. this is the house on the grounds of the plantation, built in the 16505, where the slave owners lived in great style. my guest is barbados—born eminent historian sir hilary beckles. he's vice chancellor of the university of the west indies and chair of a caribbean commission to gain reparations for the descendants of enslaved africans. what are his chances of success? professor sir hilary beckles, welcome to hardtalk. tremendous honour, pleasure to be here. right, so, we're here in the part of barbados that is your ancestral land, your great—great—great—grandpa rents worked on sugar plantations just nearby. what is the legacy of that history of slavery here in barbados? well, this is where the global world and a small island came together 400 years ago. this is barbados, the first slave plantation economy in the world. this is where slavery plantations, british capitalism all came together. a small place becoming a centre of the financial world of the west. it's a tremendous history. a tremendous history, but it's also one of great, great tragedy. absolutely. the entire structures we see here, these economic systems called plantations, the enslavement of thousands of african peoples on these islands, the tragic nature of the slave trade, the exploitation of people at the most extreme levels in human history, all generated tremendous wealth. and barbados became known as the wealthiest colony in the world because of slavery and sugar, and the way in which it plugged into the british economy, the way in which britain grew wealthy out of all of this. but, so the legacy of british enslavement, the exploitation of african peoples on these plantations, the legacies are all around us. the poverty, the underdevelopment, the consistent institutional racism, white supremacy, all of those structures that made the system work are still here with us. so, you are chair of a caribbean commission, caricon, the inaugural chair in 2013 - a commission set up to look at reparations, to redress all these grievances that you've just set out. but i'll be frank with you, i mean, talking to diplomatic sources here in barbados, western sources, they say reparations, this isn't a topic that concerns the ordinary barbadian. at every moment in history, when there's a major crime to be adjudicated, a major transition to be made, the general view has always been — it's not going to happen in my lifetime. if you asked the enslaved people in 1830, british parliament is going to legislate the abolition of slavery in 1833, but if you took a census on the west indian sugar plantations of the slaves and you asked them the question, will you ever see freedom in your lifetime? i would wager that the majority of enslaved people who had been enslaved for 200 or 300 years would have said we will never see freedom. let's just look at the legacy of slavery. you've outlined some of the economic grievances. let me tell you what a french african historian says, amzat boukari—ya bara. he says young people of african descent in france today are insurrectional because their history has never been taken into account. so, the question i want to ask you is this — how far do you think there's a difference between africans, or people of african descent, living in black majority countries, such as barbados, and those living in white majority countries, such as france? there's always a kind of volatility on the diversity of knowledge and content. when i was growing up as a teenager in the british high school system, we were never taught anything about british colonial history, imperialism. i went through the british university system, we were never taught anything about british imperial history. and so there is a diversity of content. the british working class people, the majority of british people do not know anything of significance about what they did to other people in other parts of the world in order to secure their enrichment. so, yes, we have this diversity of opinion, but this is why reparatoryjustice is much more than a conversation about the african people specifically. what you are talking about is the unravelling of modernity, the crumbling of the structures that supported modernity, the white supremacy, the racism, the colonisation... can you lay all that at the door...? all of that is breaking down to create a new frontier for the 21st century. but can you lay all of that to the slave legacy, you know, discriminatory policing practices? that's the core of it — that's the core of it. really? i mean, what happened in india with the destruction of the indian 19th—century industrial economy by britain, what is happening all over africa, what happened to the indigenous people of the new world, all of this is part of the same conversation. the african part of it is a critical part of it, but it goes beyond the african experience. so, do you think that in the light of the killing of george floyd last year, and the blm protests, that there is a new awakening? i tell you what michelle bachelet, the un human rights commissioner, former president of chile, said after the killing of floyd. "behind today's racial violence, systemic racism "and confront the legacy of the slave trade and colonialism." absolutely. is she right? absolutely. listen, reparatoryjustice has always been about the gap between what the victims know and what the rest of the world is willing to admit. and there has been this schism between self—knowledge and public knowledge. however, the george floyd circumstance converged the two. the world saw for themselves what we have been seeing all along in our communities. but that has been taking place all over the world. we have seen it in south africa during the anti—apartheid struggle. the world did not really care about apartheid in south africa until the killing of young people, young people on the streets demonstrating, then the observations came together. a lot of people look at the african—american diaspora and, you know, see what happens there in the united states as an example of what might happen in other parts of the world. and in april, the housejudiciary committee in the united states voted on a bill which would set up a federal commission to study, as they put it, the lingering negative effects of the institution of slavery in the united states, looking at various economic, political, educational and social discrimination, and to "develop appropriate remedies," it says, including potential reparations. now, that bill was approved and is awaiting a vote in the house of representatives. so, do you sense that we are going to get some kind of movement on reparations in the united states, and if so, what will the impact be? well, let me say, it's a relay race. the caribbean at this moment is at the centre of this global discussion. what happened in the caribbean was very significant. civil society talking about this, demanding this. the rastafarian community, the pan—african community speaking about reparations for over 100 years. what was critical in 2013 was that the governments of the caribbean finally came on board. the governments of the caribbean finally came on board and said "we are now supporting this civil society movement." they joined the cause. when that happened in the caribbean, it had tremendous consequences for the us and, therefore, the us reparations movement was revitalised, re—energised and, similarly, they formed a national african—american reparations commission modelled on the caribbean case, calling upon their governments, as we did in the caribbean, to come on board. let me tell you what jamaica's minister of sport, youth and culture 0livia grange has said — "we are hoping for reparatory justice in all forms. "redress is well overdue. "better speak with one voice "and to have one considered position "by all people of african descent, "the caribbean, the united states and brazil." that's the problem — there's no united position on this. you don't speak with one voice. but i don't know if we need it. reparatoryjustice has always been very a broad tent. you don't think you need to speak with one voice, all people of african descent? we have never needed to speak with one voice. we have never had one voice. but why? because there's tremendous intellectual diversity within the african—american community. there's tremendous conceptual and pedagogical variations across the dynamics of the black world and the brown world. now, to expect one voice is to actually hinder your progress. but surely not everybody of african descent, regardless of which continent they live — the americas, where many enslaved africans ended up, countries like brazil, the caribbean here, europe, all over the world. we all know what we want, but there are different ways to conceptualise it, different ways to proceed. there are multiple roads leading to the roundabout. and we don't want necessarily to have everyone walking like sheep down a narrow path. we are a community of multiple experiences and diversities. in the us, for example, there's a very strong argument that says we want cash in hand as part of the repayment of the plunder of the african—american community. we have been plundered. we can demonstrate it — we've lost our land, we've lost our businesses, we've had the personal victimisation. we want to have this repaired in hard cash. in the caribbean, we've not taken that path. we have said our reparatoryjustice model is about development of our infrastructures. we want more schools, we want public health infrastructures, we want to have systems to allow development to become endemic within our societies. and that is the focus of our reparation. take, for example, what happened in tulsa — a white community goes into a black town... you're talking about back in the 1920s in the united states? yes, burned the town to the ground, hundreds of families lost their cash and their capital. it was a very middle—class, affluent african—american community. they were rising up from slavery, pursuing development. lost their capital. that has to be compensated for in the context of cash repayments and compensation. in the caribbean, we are looking at a different circumstance. we have the highest percentage of diabetes, hypertensions in the world per capita — the result of these sugar plantations where you consume what you grow. you grow sugar, you consume it. now, we all have a sugar problem in the caribbean because we've been eating sugar as a meal and exposed to that, and now we are all addicted to it, with the consequences. we have to repair that. so, you say every community has to go about the way that reparations are made in their own fashion that suits their community? let me tell you what the black entertainment billionaire robertjohnson in the united states says. he wants $14 trillion in reparations. he says, "we, as a country, the united states, "must atone by paying back black people of all stripes, "the rich ones, poor ones and the middle." i mean, even people like oprah winfrey or lebronjames could be paid under this principle. when somebody like that makes that kind of comment, it invites mockery, doesn't it, that the likes of oprah winfrey should be paid? well, i'm not sure it does. what it invites is a call for understanding. what we do know is that we are all united around the reparatory justice movement. what we also know is that there is a diversity as to how and to where and what have we. but the beneficiaries of those crimes, the western states and the institutions and their corporations, ought not to be in a position to determine how we perceive reparatory justice. it is for us, the descendants of the victim class. and all of us are victimised as a race. if you consider the slave trade, when the europeans went into africa to kidnap and to pillage the labour force of africa, they were not looking at the income distribution of the peoples they were enslaving. they were agricultural people, they were teachers, they were artisans, they were politicians — all kinds of people were scraped up in the slave trade and brought to the sugar plantations. they didn't consider the diversity of occupation and wealth at the time, so why should they be concerned about it today? it has always been a feature of the victimisation of the black community. all right, but how do you make the case now? look, here we are in barbados, it's a middle—income country, so it doesn't qualify for a lot of development aid. so, when you have somebody like rory stewart, who, in the united kingdom, was a former secretary for international development, and he says he would have liked to target uk aid to the poorest people in the world, rather than paying reparations in some weird belief, he says, that we are going to somehow undo 300, 400 years of colonial history by writing cheques to people. well, there you go again. there you go again. the narrative of those who believe that they ought to determine for the victims of this process how this should happen. but, no, he's saying let me pay it to poorer people in the world, target uk aid there, rather than to... the slave—owners, the slave—owners. ..the relatively affluent people in barbados. zeinab, in the face of emancipation legislation, the slave—owners were saying to the british and european parliaments, "you don't need to pass the emancipation legislation. so many of the enslaved people are doing well, so many of them now have their own home, they have property. and then a percentage of them are free and they're doing so well. all you have to do is extend slavery longer and more and more enslaved will do better off, become better off." these are arguments, these are positions. so, there you are, chair of this caribbean regional commission, looking at these reparations. first step you wanted was a formal apology from the former colonial colonisers like the united kingdom and so on. you haven't got very far, have you? well, because there has always been two approaches to this matter. the oppressor class, the beneficiaries of these crimes against humanity, have always preferred to have a settlement approach. look what germany has just done in namibia. that wasn't reparations, that was a settlement. and here's how the settlement... that was what germany paid in regards to the genocide in the early 20th century. the genocide in namibia, in africa. the herero people. and that has become the model for many european countries indeed. the americans are ambivalent about it. but here's the issue — you have to say that reparations is a process. it's not an event. settlement is an event. you can show that you have suffered harm, the harm has become systemic, those who have benefited from that harm could actually say here's $1 billion, take it and go away. that's closure. reparations says no. so, what do you want, then? first of all, reparations is a process. it begins with the step that says we admit responsibility for the crimes we have committed. you don't get that, though, do you? you just get expressions of regret, like david cameron, the british prime minister in 2015, when he went to jamaica. no apology. the european governments prefer to say, "we regret very much what we have done," and that's the end of the conversation. reparations says, "we apologise for what we have done. now let us work together in partnership and work through the consequences of what we have done." so, reparations is really a partnership relationship that may lead to development, but importantly, it leads to the elevation of those who continue to suffer the harm. we don't want necessarily to be locked into a discourse around settlements. we want to speak about the process of reparations, the development consequences. development in all of the areas... so, development money for countries where there were... partnerships. ..enslaved africans descendants, that's what you want? yes! 0k. this is where the british established the model. what was the model? the british came here in the 1620s. the following decade, the british said all black people on this island and those who are coming here in the future will be classified as non—human. they're going to be classified as property, real estate and chattel — first step. second step, 1661, britain used this island as a laboratory for the constitutional development of slavery, which says all african peoples are of a violent, barbarous nature and should not be governed under the same laws as christians, thus the white supremacy. this is a laboratory. from here, it moved across the caribbean, it moved to the united states. so, having this interview here, you have come to the source of the crime that we are trying to adjudicate today in the broad context of reparations. and i keep on asking you this, but you're not making much progress, are you. . . yes, we are making process. ..on a government to government level at all? we are making significant progress. we do not expect this to happen overnight. but you've said you've been arguing for it for 100 years. absolutely! so, what has the uk government, for instance, said on reparations to you? the uk government has always said that slavery was not a crime, that slavery was legal, we did nothing wrong, we're not going to apologise. well, you're not shifting minds, are you? well, we're trying, and we will always try. but here is the issue, zeinab — it took us all of the 19th century to uproot slavery from the world. the haitians first in 1804, through to the english, the french, the dutch, and ultimately the portuguese in brazil. it took 100 years of struggle to end slavery. now, then it took us another 100 years to convert freedom into civil rights. it took us all of the 20th century... so, you're saying patience. ..it took us all of the 20th century to give us civil rights. if it takes us all of the 21st century to have reparatory justice... you think you'll get that? ..generation by generation the struggle goes on. all right. but let me ask you, while you're waiting for official recognition from governments, what about the role of business? we've seen in the united kingdom, for instance, the insurance company lloyds and also brewer king apologise for their roles in the transatlantic slave trade and offered financial support to charities promoting diversity and inclusion. glasgow university in scotland, in 2019, said it will raise nearly $30 million to have a caribbean centre for development and research. that kind of piecemeal approach, is that acceptable? yes, but here we go again, where the beneficiaries of those crimes are admitting that they have committed the crimes, but they wish to control the narrative, the policies and the consequences. when lloyds of london, barclays bank, the royal bank of scotland, the midland bank, when all of these major financial institutions in the insurance sector and financial services sector, the banking sector, all admitted that their companies and corporations rose up from the foul environment of slavery. what they wish to do as a consequence is to tell us what they are going to do about it. and so they put what we call something on the table, an offensive public relation act, to say we will put £1 million in this community charity. but they're not talking to us. they might not wish to talk to us right now, but they will have to talk to us sooner or later, because the consciousness here has been awakened by historical discourses, by the realisation that this long journey, this 394—year journey with the british monarchy has done us harm. we have not had any benefits to be associated... what harm does the queen do as being head of state? she's a very benign presence. no power. look at what happened to the windrush people. we fought for the british empire in the second world war, we kicked the butt out of hitler and his third reich, we won the war, then we were invited to britain, my parents�* generation came to britain to clean up the mess that the british had experienced from all the bombings of the germans, and the first opportunity they were surrounded by deepening institutional racism that hurt those caribbean people to the core. they appealed to the monarchy, they appealed to the government, there was silence because that is the history. but let me tell you, there's a photograph on the cover of my recent book, britain's black debt, and it shows queen elizabeth visiting the bell sugar plantation in 1966, february, on the eve of independence, and what did the queen do? she came to barbados to visit a sugar plantation that was owned by her first cousin. and here is the earl and the queen on the sugar plantation in barbados in february 1966. a plantation that was bought by the family of the earl in 1782 with 300 slaves! so, it's the symbolism of that kind of act. it's a powerful symbolism! what about the commonwealth, though, because there are many who say that it... philip murphy, director of the institute of commonwealth studies, says the commonwealth has an admirable record of progressive causes, most notably the struggle against apartheid. would you want barbados to leave the commonwealth, too? no, i live in the modern world, i live in a realistic environment. the commonwealth is a very significant institution. there are challenges, of course, with most institutions. the commonwealth is made up of the categories of the british empire. there's a white commonwealth, there's a brown commonwealth, and there's a black commonwealth. altogether under the rubric, the commonwealth. there are some serious challenges within the relationship and the elements within the commonwealth, but on the whole i believe on balance, at this moment in time, it's a force for progress. you, professor sir hilary beckles, are one of barbados�*s most distinguished citizens, vice chancellor of the university of the west indies, could you conceivably become the new head of state here in barbados? no, i don't think so. i think we have a model, and that model is that our head of states ought to be diplomats, to be people who transcend all of the social forces and the contradictions of the society. my role in the society is to identify those contradictions, promote them, build advocacy around them, explore all the challenges we are facing to make society better place. we have to re—engineer the society. i see my role as an engineer, not a diplomat. professor sir hilary beckles, thank you very much indeed for coming on hardtalk. thank you. hello again. well, it's been another chilly day wednesday, but the trend is as we go into thursday the weather is turning increasingly mild. however, over recent hours, we have seen some freezing rain in scotland. that's liquid rain that can freeze on impact. you can imagine the roads and the pavements becoming very icy in some of the deeper scottish valleys for a time. but this time yesterday, it was very cold. temperatures were down to about —10 into parts of aberdeenshire. quite a contrast with what we've got at the moment, but aside from some of those valleys, the temperatures are stilljust about below freezing. for the most part as we head into thursday, it's actually getting milder. and across western areas — 12 degrees in plymouth, 11 in belfast, it is going to be a mild start to the day for these areas on thursday. now, thursday, there will be a lot of cloud around. we've got weather fronts bringing rain. the heaviest rain moves quickly across from northern ireland into northern england and scotland as well. further southwards, cloud, a few spots of rain, no great amounts, though. some brighter weather for wales and the south—west later on, but look at the temperatures. northern ireland, most of england and wales seeing temperatures into double figures and reaching highs of 13. but still relatively cool across the far north of england and across much of scotland. now, through thursday night, our weather front stops moving northwards, and itjust weakens really in situ over scotland. so, there will be a lot of cloud here, still bits and pieces of light rain, some drizzle, some mist and fog patches over the hills as well. and heading into christmas eve, there's probably also going to be some mist and fog across parts of england and wales, so we could have poor visibility for a time. through christmas eve, then, we've got another band of rain that's going to be moving into northern ireland, across wales and south—west england. it does become a little bit drier for northernmost areas of scotland, but we've got some showers around and they're likely to be wintry showers into shetland. now, for christmas day itself, we've still got this temperature contrast that we've been talking about for a number of days. now, it looks like it's going to be sunny and cold across northern scotland, but i suspect there'll be some wintry showers affecting eastern areas. so, that is a mixture of rain, some sleet and some snow. it's mild across the south—west. you're just going to get rain and temperatures into double figures, but in between, there's a small chance that we could see a few flurries over the high ground of northern england and perhaps the southern uplands of scotland. but that's more of a perhaps. beyond that, into boxing day, many of us will keep the mild weather conditions, but still relatively cool air loitering in scotland. that's your weather. this is bbc news with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. new studies suggest the 0micron variant of coronavirus could be milder than previous variants, with fewer people needing hospital treatment. but, as the uk records over 100,000 new cases for the first time, concern remains that the sheer number of infections could overwhelm hospitals. hong kong's pillar of shame statue commemorating the tiananmen square massacre, is dismantled. we hear from the work's danish sculptor no verdict yet in the sex trafficking trial of the british socialite, ghislaine maxwell. the jury will reconvene after christmas. and celebrating a break from pandemic gloom in spain

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