senator lindsey graham — an ally of donald trump. is the seemingly never—ending trump soap opera about to plunge the us into turmoil? senator lindsey graham, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. senator, you are one of the strongest republican supporters of ukraine and of us military assistance to ukraine. right. would you acknowledge that, right now, the war isn't going the way you wanted it to, or indeed the way you expected it to just a few months ago? not at all. i think it's going exceedingly well. i just got back from ukraine last wednesday. there's major breakthroughs in the south. the land mine situation was incredible. i could not be more proud of how they've used the military equipment provided by our countries. they're putting pressure, they've broken through the first defensive line. i think they'll split the russian forces in crimea in the next couple of weeks, months. so i am exceedingly proud of the ukrainian military. well, that is extraordinarily upbeat, if i may say so, compared with what we see in leaks from classified pentagon documents suggesting — and i'm quoting here from a leak in the washington post — that kyiv won't fulfil its principal objective of severing that land bridge to crimea in this year's counter—offensive. i think they're wrong. those same people told us kyiv would fall in four days, that the whole country would be in russian hands in two weeks. i go there enough to know what's real and what's not. it's been extremely tough sledding because of all the mines, but when they get contact with the russians, the russians fold pretty quickly. you've got a bunch of conscripts that would rather not die in ukraine if they didn't have to. you've got highly motivated ukrainian civilian population and soldiers. no, i am very pleased. it has been slower than some thought. but when you look at what's happened in the last 48 hours, good news awaits us here. i'll tell you what's also been slower than you wanted, that is the scale and the quality of us military assistance. amen. months and months ago you were talking about getting f—16s into the battle space. yes. it hasn't happened yet. it's clearly not going to happen until next year. also abrams tanks, which were pledged a long time ago, they are still not on the battlefield. well, they completed training yesterday, the abrams training. i have been very frustrated, along with democrats — quite frankly — to provide game—changing weapons that the ukrainians can use to evict the russians. to your country, the storm shadow has been a game changer. it is a missile that can be launched inside of ukraine and hit deep inside crimea. so now they do have cluster bombs. they're really wreaking havoc on fortified infantry positions. the abrams tank is due to show up soon. it'll be months before the f—16 gets there, but the himars... the weapon systems they need have been slow to get there. but once they arrive in theatre, the ukrainians are using them to good effect. i think the slowness has extended the war and allowed the russians to get more fortified. but i do want to thank the biden administration for sticking with it. you're also looking somewhat isolated these days inside your own party. the republican party still is committed to this fight on ukraine's behalf. but the fact is, if you look at the polling evidence, republican voters are moving away from support for ukraine. it's about one to one. and what you see is that, like, i think a lot of republicans are frustrated that we're not all—in to win it. nobody wants american troops... and, you know, after 20 years of war in iraq and afghanistan, this is not an unusual situation. what's happening here is i tell my colleagues, we need to sell the war better. if putin wins, there goes china. most republicans believe it was a mistake to withdraw from afghanistan, and set in motion the bad guys. well, here's what i would tell my republican colleagues. you think biden made a mistake getting out of afghanistan? if you pull the plug on ukraine, that's afghanistan on steroids. if we give up on supporting ukraine — who doesn't want any soldiers, theyjust want the weapons — then that's a signal to china, we're not up to the task. soa lot... and putin will not stop in ukraine. it's beginning to turn, i think. the more battlefield success, the better the numbers will be. senator, how does what you've just said square with your fulsome support of donald trump as the republican nominee for president? donald trump plainly does not agree with you when it comes to ukraine. i don't think donald trump plainly states anything about ukraine. well, he's what he plainly stated a while ago is, "if i were president, i'll end the war in one day. it's going to take 2a hours. that deal between zelensky and putin," he said, would be easy." yeah. the only way that can make sense is if trump wants a deal which allows russia to retain ukrainian territory — and you know it. yeah, well, here's what i can tell you about president trump. he provided javelins on his watch that allowed the ukrainians to stop the advance. so that was a good thing. here's what i would say about ending the war in 2a hours or not. this is sort of typical trump that, "i'll bring the war to a conclusion." it's nonsense, isn't it? no. well, i think it's... i think it's real that if trump were president, they wouldn't have invaded ukraine. but with greatest respect, that's irrelevant. what matters now... if you are serious about backing donald trump for president... i'm very serious. ..is what trump would do if he were in the white house. mike pence, who, of course, was his running mate and his vice president, says, "if you talk about solving it in a day, that means you give vladimir putin what he wants." yeah, i don't see it that way. i know trump pretty well. if he gets to be president, and he's got a decent chance of it, by next year, by the november of 2024, i think the ukrainians are going to have major battlefield success. president trump's not going to pull the...victory...defeat from the jaws of victory. i'm very confident that the republican senate will support a supplemental. the point you make is legitimate. i think there are people in europe that... like the germans. how does this end? let me tell you how... but in a sense, what i'm most interested in is the impact this debate inside your party is having on vladimir putin. to quote dan fried — a respected former us ambassador — he says, "putin thinks he can outlast the americans because he thinks political support for ukraine will be compromised if donald trump wins." well, he's made a series of miscalculations. that would be one of them. we're not going to pull the plug on ukraine. we're going to continue to support the ukrainian efforts to evict the russians. putin's made the blunder of the 21st century. he invaded, thinking he would quickly wipe out the country. he is... larger nato today than before the invasion. the rouble is in the toilet and he has an arrest warrant against him. we're not going to let him get away with this. so i feel really confident, confident that the ukrainians can win and there will be support at home. and i want to say something about the british government. they've been terrific. what on earth has happened to your republican party? if you look at the three — it seems by the polls — the three leading contenders for the nomination for president candidate status right now, that is donald trump and ron desantis and vivek ramaswamy. all of them, in one way or another, are saying, "we need to end our commitment to ukraine now. there needs to be peace now, and that means we negotiate with putin." yeah. now, you don't agree with any of that and yet these are the three people most likely to lead your party into the next election. i think they're reflecting some of the unease in the republican party about how this war ends. a lot of frustration with biden is the way he's conducted the war. but here's what i will tell you. the next commander in chief in 2025 is going to have a situation, i think, where putin's on his back foot and to pull the plug would be the biggest mistake any american president could make. one thing about trump, you know, he talked about getting afghanistan and he set in motion the withdrawal, but he kept 2,500 troops there. let me tell you something that most people don't understand. trump is very glad he didn't pull the plug on afghanistan on his watch. he saw what happened afterwards. and i've told him, if you or anybody gives putin a lifeline, that's the worst single signal you could send to china. you've told him? 0h, totally. what did he say? well, i think he understands. no. be straight with me. what did he say to you? he says, "the best way to defend taiwan is not have to go to war, convince the taiwan... the chinese that it would be... the downside is larger than the upside, to be strong." and i said, "mr president, how does ukraine fit in? if the chinese see us pull the plug on ukraine to give putin a lifeline, you better get ready for a war with china." and i don't think he believes that's a, um, unrealistic scenario. ron desantis is kind of all over the board. here's where we run into problems. everybody wants to thump their chest about china, and that's good. let's stand up to the chinese. here's what i would tell democrats and republicans. to be weak in ukraine means that you lose taiwan. just one other point on foreign policy, cos i do want to get to domestic matters. but on foreign policy, you've worked closely with democrats on ukraine. yeah. i notice you're also quite involved... they've been terrific, by the way. yeah. the democratic party has been terrific. and i notice you are working with the biden administration on a very ambitious... yeah. ..mid—east vision, which involves reaching out to mbs, as we call him, saudi arabia's crown prince, to be the architect of a peace deal with israel, which would pull the saudis in and which presumably would offer something to the palestinians. there's much debate about whether biden can deliver this. do you believe he can? and are you helping him? well, for a year i've been helping. it started with the abraham accords. president trump on his watch signed the abraham accords where the uae and other arab nations normalised relationships with israel. that was a big accomplishment. the next logical step is saudi arabia, which is the big prize, right? so the biden administration is trying to build on the abraham accords. they have been negotiating very closely with saudi arabia. and i'll tell you what the deal would look like. saudi arabia wants a defence agreement with the united states that's bigger than the individual... security guarantees? yes, they want a defence agreement that would transcend a presidency. they want more certainty in the relationship. and you think the us is right to consider that when we know what happened to jamal khashoggi, thejournalist murdered in istanbul? yes. we know the human rights abuses that continue in saudi arabia. all true. and you're absolutely four—square for that deal? let me tell you why. because the crown prince and the king are moving the country in a different direction. ijust got back. i thought i would never go after khashoggi. that was really, really hard. i talked to the president, i've talked to sullivan, i've talked to mcgurk. the saudis are investing a trillion dollars to change their economy. they're building new cities. women can drive. you can go, as a woman, out unescorted. he's making a bid to fundamentally change his country and to modernise it. i told him personally, "you will never get your money back until you change the brand of your country." i could not give away a free trip to saudi arabia in south carolina today. what would change that relationship or that brand? get an agreement with the united states, recognise israel, then all doors are open. all right. i want to go to domestic matters now. so let's get to donald trump for president, what it means for the united states. he is now facing four criminal trials in the coming year. the bottom line is there are some really serious charges, including allegations which, of course, trump still denies, charges that he was involved in an effort to subvert the outcome of the 2020 election. you know this is serious stuff. yeah, i was there. and yet you're telling the american people this is still the guy that should be in the white house. yeah. i'm seeing the legal system weaponised. the jurisdictions he's being prosecuted in are incredibly liberal. we all saw january the 6th. i don't hold him criminally liable for what happened onjanuary 6th, he didn't go into the capitol. here's why he's doing better. there's a backlash among conservatives against the prosecution of trump for everything all the time. the liberal media throughout the world is trying to marginalise him every day. we believe — those who support him believe — he's the best person we could send into the arena to stand up to the liberal media. hang on. yeah, you're getting political. i just want to stay legalfor a moment. they talk over each other. well, this is the nub of it, isn't it? you're an experienced lawyer. all that is happening to donald trump, it isn't weaponisation. it is simply investigation, prosecution and due process. and you are delegitimising america'sjudicial system. well, i believe in equal application of the law. so classified information being mishandled in mar—a—lago... classified information during the clinton years wound up on anthony weiner�*s computer. we know people in the clinton orbit took... this is... nothing happened. this is what we call whataboutery. no, it's not. it's about two people doing the same thing, one guy gets prosecuted, the other one doesn't. no. it clearly isn't. hillary clinton's misuse of classified information was fully investigated. no charges were brought. the point about donald trump is that he is going through due process. have you heard what's happened with hunter biden? the effort not to prosecute clinton was legendary. we have two whistle—blowers telling us that the fbi and the irs at every turn gave hunter biden breaks that nobody else gets. whataboutery again. ..plea deal that was rejected by thejudge and... i have nothing against hunter biden. i hate it when anybody�*s family gets in trouble. but you don't get that most conservatives believe there's a double standard in the law in america today when it comes to political figures. whataboutery of a classic kind. hunter biden now faces his own special counsel investigation. let's see where the chips fall. well, they picked... i would like you to return to donald trump. bill barr — who was appointed attorney general by donald trump — says, "these federal cases are legitimate." so why can you not accept that due process means he has to have his day in court? the question for you is whether it's appropriate for that man, who may be in prison by the time of the november 2024 election, that man be your candidate for president? here's what i would tell mr barr and anybody else. be careful of charges being brought by political figures in deeply political areas. there'll be a day under this theory where some texas prosecutor will go after a democrat for allowing illegal immigrants to come across the state of texas and murder, rape and pillage. what i worry about is that you've got a county prosecutor, a city prosecutor bringing charges in very liberal venues. you got the special counsel, january 6th special counsel. let's see how all this plays out. the reason republicans are going to nominate donald trump is they see the accusations against him being designed to reduce his ability to be president, not as righting wrongs. that's the way most look at it. how far, senator graham, are you prepared to take this? if donald trump is convicted in one of these four trials before november 2024, will you still support him as the republican nominee? yeah, i think so. well, i don't know what he's going to be convicted of but, generally speaking, i'm not going to let these prosecutions affect my ability to support president trump. i see these prosecutions more political than anything else. a clear majority of americans right now approve of the justice department indicting donald trump. that's from an august 16th poll from the associated press. and two—thirds of americans right now have an unfavourable view of donald trump. this isn't working well for you. and 75% of americans thinks joe biden�*s too old to run. 70% of americans think we're on the wrong track, that the biden presidency has been a disaster. what would america like to see? not to have a rematch. that's the truth. if you ask the average american, "would you like to have a rematch between trump and biden?" they say no. the problem is that nobody�*s going to beat trump in our primary because he's seen as the type guy to fix the problems we face today. but maybe that's an act of self—harm amongst republicans. listen to these words from the republican governor of new hampshire, chris sununu. "trump can't win in a general election. independents hate all of this stuff that surrounds donald trump. there is no way trump wins more than 30% of independents. and that's why with trump republicans get crushed." well, why isn't he running? if you look at the numbers joe biden has, there's no way he gets elected. well, i think he could get re—elected. i think donald trump could get a second term. why? we're going to be trump—biden, that's 90% sure we're going to have the same two characters. how does trump win? it doesn't have to be this way. 0ur border can be secured. we can be safe, or we can be energy independent. we can be respected on the world stage all again, and we can lower inflation. i did it once, i can do it again. and what biden will say, you know, all the drama that we've had for the last four years only gets worse. the american people probably are going to have to pick from these two candidates, whether you like it or not. that's probably what's going to happen. isn't the truth that you have conceded, indeed in a book recently, you conceded that trump has — quote — "personality problems, has a darkness within him". but you stick with trump cos you still want to be senator for south carolina and you know you'll be killed in your own party if you abandon donald trump. isn't that the truth? it's pure opportunism. no, it's... it goes this way. there's a dark side to donald trump. and to be honest with you, he was a very good president, from my point of view. i'm sticking with him because i saw what he did. he secured a broken border. we had the lowest illegal crossings on his watch in history. we had the strongest economy for working—class people in history. he kills soleimani. he took the war to isis in syria and wiped them out. we were energy independent. he appointed judges that i recommended to him that are very conservative. i'mjudging him by what he did as president. i think he can do all those things again. he got a vaccine developed in record time. so that's why i'm supporting president trump. aren't you ignoring the most important point that, right now, america faces the prospect of a guy being tried for his involvement in what amounted to a sort of half—baked coup attempt, a guy running for president who divides your country? all of the surveys suggest that more and more americans are fearful of violence, political violence, in the run—up to 2024. are you? no, i'm not. i hope people will not resort to violence. i urge you not. if you don't like trump, vote against him. so here's what i would say about the narrative in europe and in our media. conservatives have just about had it with this, that somehow if you support trump, you're supporting tyranny. we don't see it that way. well, what do you calljanuary 6th? it was a bad day. i was there in the building. i condemned the hell out of it. donald trump calls it "a beautiful thing". he says, "there was a lot of love onjanuary 6th." well, there wasn't a lot of love in the capitol. everybody who violated the capitol should go to jail. you know, defile the capitol, should go to jail. but we're not going to talk about that. no, you're not going to face reality... no, no, no... ..that�*s the truth. and that's why there are serious people in the united states worried about the potential for civil strife, political civil war. robert pape at the university of chicago, he wrote this dangers to democracy report. it says, "the number of americans who believe that use of force is justified to restore trump to the white house has increased markedly." he estimates maybe 18 million americans believe that force would be justified to put trump back in the white house. well, anybody that uses force to try to put a person in the white house is going to jail. so the narrative that trump... these are people inside your party. well, i don't know who they are. i don't know who you polled. it's the university of chicago. but here's what most republicans feel about this narrative, that the democrats, you, nobody in the liberal media covered the burning down of portland, the attacks on police officers in new york and chicago. that'sjust one side... you should be afraid of conservatives. they will destroy your country. the prime minister in italy is being called a fascist because she wants to have stronger immigration. conservatives all over the world are not going to be intimidated by this kind of rhetoric. we're going to show up based on policy, we're going to campaign, we're going to take back the senate, hopefully hold the house. president trump has at least a 50—50 chance of winning. and this idea of prosecuting him for 91 offences in very liberaljurisdictions is not going to change anything. if he wins, you have to ask yourself, "why do people still support him?" because they see in him somebody that produced results that made our country stronger and safer, somebody strong enough to stand up to these attacks that can get america back on course at a time we're sliding. that's why he has this support. senator lindsey graham, thank you very much forjoining me. thank you, sir. enjoyed it. thank you so much. inaudible chat hello, there. i've got a couple of interesting sunsets to show you. the first of these shows, well, rather subdued colours in the skies in norfolk. and that was because we've got thick layers of saharan dust in the sky — and all saharan dust is good for is, well, blocking out some of the sun's light. whereas in the much cleaner skies and cleaner air that we've had in scotland, some really spectacular sunsets as all of the sun's light can come flooding across the sky. now, looking at the weather pattern at the moment, we've got more of our september heat wave to come thanks to this blocked weather pattern in the jet stream, a ridge of high pressure in north—west europe is bringing us hot and sunny weather. but in contrast to that, this trough in the eastern mediterranean is what is responsible for storm daniel. and of course, that's been bringing some catastrophic floods to parts of south—east europe over recent days. now, looking at the weather picture as we go through the next few hours — for the vast majority, we're looking at dry conditions with just a bit of low cloud, and mist and fog patches forming primarily around some of the north sea coast in east scotland, eastern areas of england. and so that's how we start the day on thursday. some of that will be quite slow to clear away, but eventually most of us will see sunshine. there'll be a bit more high cloud across the north and west of the uk, so that will make the sunshine a little bit on the hazy side here. but it's another hot and sunny day. temperatures in scotland and northern ireland widely around 24 to 27. but for england, wales we're looking at quite widely the high 20s to low 30s. so we're going to be quite close again to seeing the highest temperature of the year, 32 degrees recorded on wednesday, probably similar for thursday. now for friday, it's another dry day. probably a little bit more in the way of mist and fog patches around both the north sea coast and also through some of our irish sea coasts. but for the bulk, it's hot and it's sunny once again. we've got more of this to come as well as we get into the weekend. although there's a tendency for the weather to start turning a little bit cloudier and breezier across the north—west of scotland with some showers moving in here. and this really is the first sign of a breakdown in the weather patterns with that slightly cooler air working into parts of western scotland. but for most, saturday is another september scorcher, with highs up to 32. 32.2 is the highest temperature we've seen so far this year. so we're not far away from that. the change in the weather patterns, though, will come through next week. temperatures getting closer to normal and there'll be a bit of rain around as well. live from london. this is bbc news. the hunt continues for a suspected terrorist who escaped from a london prison — and an urgent investigation is ordered into what happened. a russian missile strike kills 17 people in eastern ukraine, as the us commits more than $1 billion in aid to kyiv. all systems are go. and japan has successfully launched a rocket carrying a small lunar lander — hoping to touch down on the moon early next year. hello, very warm welcome to the programme, and sally bundock. we start in the uk — where a hunt is continuing for a suspected terrorist who escaped