o'donnell. >> it's nice to see you do these interviews because you are seemingly able to cover the ground you were never able to cover last year. >> i don't know exactly what the worry would have been from the trump administration about letting senior doctors come on a show that was hosted by somebody who they think is a terrible person. there's no harm that dr. fauci would have done to the trump administration by answering questions from me or from you while they were still here. i don't know what petty thing was driving that, but it was such a relief to be able to ask questions directly of the policymakers at the heart of these things and get real answers. it feels like we're finally doing the real work. >> of course, there was the constant pretending that covid-19 either wasn't so bad or was getting much better every day when it was getting much worse, so there was just that madness about trump world and the trump white house, and what is odd about it, i agree with you, is that dr. fauci was allowed to do certain shows at certain times where perfectly reasonable questions were asked. >> exactly right. i do feel like the further we get from the trump administration, particularly on covid stuff, not only are we realizing that there's just basic things they didn't do, like plan to roll out vaccines. they just didn't make a plan for that. but some of the stuff they did do was really, really random and explicable and petty. and it wasn't even systemically bad or systemically negligent all in one way, it was just a jackson pollock spatter painting of random bad ideas mixed in with things that made no sense. to have both coherence and competence and transparency at the same time, i do sort of feel like i quite know -- i didn't know what to do with myself. >> rachel, thank you very much. >> thank you, lawrence. we have a very special guest joining us tonight. she is already in your history books. she is in american history books. in her 90 years, dolores fuerta has been in our framework. she was on stage with caesar chavez in the ballroom of the ambassador hotel in los angeles on june 4th, 1968 when bobby kennedy had just won the democratic primary and was probably on his way to the democratic nomination, and it was that night when bobby kennedy stepped off that stage that he was assassinated. dolores fuerta has witnessed history and is the maker of history, and she will join us this hour and get the "last word." we begin tonight with a very big deal. i clean that up from the original biden that was whispered to barack obama on the day president obama signed the affordable care act at the white house. when joe biden thought no one could hear him, but because of microphone sensitivity, the world could hear him, he said to his friend, this is a big f-ing deal. >> ladies and gentlemen, the president of the united states of america, barack obama. [ applause ] >> this is a big f-ing deal. >> thank you. >> the senate has now passed the biggest deal any democratic president has ever made with congress, the biden covid relief bill is the single biggest spending bill in history that a democratic president has been able to pass in a democratic house in a democratic senate. in is the single biggest increase in anti-poverty spending in american history. you have a $1,400 relief check coming to you. that number was never compromised in the legislative process. you also have thousands more dollars coming to you if you have kids. $3,000 for each child. so if you're a mother of two at home tonight, you're guaranteed 7,400 from this legislation and more if you are receiving unemployment benefits. and if you're worrying about when you and your family are going to get vaccinated against the covid-19, the biden covid relief bill is going to speed up the day when we will all be vaccinated in this country. here's what the president had to say when the bill passed the senate on saturday. >> it obviously wasn't easy. it wasn't always pretty, but it was so desperately needed, urgently needed. when i was elected, i said we're going to get the government out of the business of battling on twitter and back in the business of delivering for the american people, of making a difference in their lives, giving everyone a chance, a fighting chance of showing the american people that their government can work for them, and passing the american rescue plan will do that. >> as always happens when legislation moves from the house to the senate, members who voted for it worry about how much the senate might change and in what ways the senate might weaken the legislation. members of the house progressive caucus kept publicly in effect, lobbying the senate to preserve the most important elements of the bill, the progressive elements of the bill, and after the senate passed the bill, our first guest tonight, congressional progressive caucus chair pramila jayapal said, importantly, despite the fact that we believe any weakening of the house provisions were bad policy and bad politics, the reality is that the final amendments were relatively minor concessions. president biden promised to deliver 1 million vaccines per day in the first 100 days, and he's now delivering 2.9 million doses, and by the end of march, it will be 2.16 million average doses per day. today the cdc has issued new guidance to the 31 million fully vaccinated americans saying that they can now visit with other fully vaccinated people indoors without wearing masks or physical distancing and visit with unvaccinated people from a single household who are at low risk for covid-19 disease indoors without wearing masks or physical distancing. even if everyone at the white house bill signing of the biden covid relief bill is fully vaccinated, we can expect the biden white house to still require wearing masks and safely distancing. leading off our discussion tonight, democratic congresswoman pramila jayapal of washington. she is the chair of the progressive congressional caucus, and a member of the progressive congressional caucus. let me begin with the chair tonight. i presume, with everything i just said, this bill will pass the house in the form the senate has sent it to the house. >> i believe that to be the case. obviously every member makes the decision at the very last minute sometimes, but from my conversations, i think people understand that this is a bill that does what we said we would do. it puts money in people's pockets, top priorities for the progressive caucus, those survival checks, the unemployment insurance benefits, the child tax credit. those are critically important pieces for us. and, in addition, it crushes the virus, which is the other piece that is inextricably linked with how we are going to get out of the crises that we face. so we are excited. we had to put a lot of pressure on, as you said, lawrence, to make sure that it didn't get weakened more, and had it been weakened more, well, we would have had a different decision. but we are going to see how government delivers for people and how government is truly the great equalizer of opportunity in the moments of the most desperate crisis. >> carson dean, what are the points of this legislation that you want to tell your constituents about? >> thanks for having me on, and it's an honor to be on with the chairwoman pramila jayapal. and it's international women's day. i'm excited for pramila because my constituents are excited. i have heard from them and am hearing from them. they want shots in arms, they need those survival checks, they need the enhanced and inclusive federal unemployment checks. we have in there $25 billion for restaurants. some of the hardest folks hit are the restaurant and hospitality industry. we need children in schools. and i really do want to point out the notion that this is international women's day. what's going on right now in terms of how hard hit women are in particular with 200 women unemployed as a result of this pandemic recession, and so many torn between family and trying to help their children in schools virtually and elsewhere, this will lift families out of poverty. this will lift children. it will cut child poverty by half. this will decrease hunger. and you notice i won't say food insecurity, because children are hungry. adults are hungry. it's a very exciting time, and i really compliment pramila on her dogged campaign to keep this progressive measure moving forward. i look forward to voting yes. >> congresswoman jayapal, in the history in the congress, the opposition to it has always been an opposition to giving people money. frequently the opposition would take the form of trying to amend the legislation to provide something other than money. money seemed to be the thing that many in government were most reluctant to give to the people who needed it most. and what struck me about the movement of this legislation so far is that there has been so little of that typical kind of opposition to this. republicans might say it costs too much or we don't need it. but the argument that this money will be abused by people if they get it seems to have been simply not just a losing argument, but it seems to have been now lost from this debate. >> i think that's right, lawrence, and i think a lot of it is credit to our progressive movement across the country. madeleine, our members, but also the movement across the country that has been beating the drum on the dire crisis that is happening. the food lines that stretch around blocks. things that people haven't seen, frankly, in their lifetimes, many who were not around for the great depression. i think the idea that people are struggling in this way, and at the same time, let me say, the counterveiling for us of billionaires who have made $1.2 trillion just in the last year, that contrast, i think, really put that argument to bed. and i think the reality is the crisis combined with the fact that everyone in republican and democratic districts has people who are suffering. what madeleine talked about is exactly right. people across the country are talking about how they need relief and how excited they are. the polling is through the roof on this. and the most popular items are actually the items you talk about, the ones that get money in people's pockets. those survival checks so popular. and i think that is also the reality of where we are. last thing i'll say is i just think that what happened during the obama administration with the last rescue package was also a lesson to people. i think that we understand that the level of crisis that we face requires a solution that matches the scale of that crisis, and i believe that that is what we will be delivering when we pass this through the house and when president biden signs it into law. >> you know, when i sat in economics classes, i never heard economists satisfied with anything that the government would do, especially legislatively. when i was working in the senate finance committee, i never heard economists compliment us for the quality of our work. let's listen to what nobel prize-winning economist paul crudeman told chris hayes tonight about this legislation. >> i'm pinching myself wondering if this is some kind of a dream, because we really are actually responding, more or less, adequately to the crisis at hand. >> congresswoman dean, that is just something economists are not used to seeing. >> no, we don't hear that. and we don't talk about the poor often enough, so i appreciate that last conversation you just had. when you and rachel were talking a moment ago, i could see in you a sort of joy that you are getting to do the job you are here to do. i feel that very same way. in passing, in crafting, in honing this legislation and fighting for it and passing it, this is the stuff i came to d.c. to do. we saw what the trump administration tried in their huge tax break to the wealthy with the hope that that would invest somehow in greater growth, in gdp down the road and trickle down to those who were less fortunate. that didn't work. now we get to do what we progressives came to d.c. to do, which is to invest at the bottom, and that will be an economic engine for gdp. every dollar that we will spend on this will return at least 25 cents, $1.25. this is the right thing to do economically, it's also the right thing to do morally, and i have to tell you it feels good as a democrat to be able to put in place the policies we have been calling for, fighting for, investing in the poor and the middle class and in working families. >> congresswoman dean and congresswoman jayapal, thank you both very much for starting our discussion tonight. >> thank you. >> thank you, lawrence. well, it was a big day for joe manchin on a bunch of the sunday shows yesterday where he said he is open to some changes in these senate filibuster rules, and that surprised everybody. it sounded like he read last week's "washington post" op-ed piece by nora morenstein or heard nora morenstein talking about it on this show. norm orenstein is back and he joins us next. orenstein is bac joins us next. cranky-pated: a bad mood related to a sluggish gut. miralax is different. it works naturally with the water in your body to unblock your gut. free your gut, and your mood will follow. ♪ and a little bit of chicken fried ♪ ♪ cold beer on a friday night ♪ ♪ a pair of jeans that fit just right ♪ ♪ and the radio up ♪ get 5 boneless wings for $1 with any handcrafted burger. only at applebee's. one of the worst things about a cold sore is how it can make you feel. but, when used at the first sign, abreva can get you back to being you in just 2 and a half days. be kinder to yourself and tougher on your cold sores. you can't plan for your period's... what the gush moments. but the right pad can. only always ultra thins have rapiddry 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(deborah) when i finally had miracle-ear and i could hear for the first time, i started crying. i could hear everything. new miracle-earmini. so small and comfortable that no one will see them, but you'll notice the difference. call today to start your 30-day risk-free trial at your local miracle-ear. well, it sounds like senator joe manchin has been listening to our next guest discussing how to change the so-called filibuster roles in the senate. here's what senator manchin told chuck todd yesterday. >> if you want to make it a little bit more painful, make him stand there and talk, i'm willing to look at any way we can, but i am not willing to take away the involvement of the minority. >> congressional scholar norm orenstein appeared on this program thursday night suggesting changes to the rules that joe manchin might be able to accept, even though senator manchin wants to preserve the senate minority's right to filibuster in some form. senator manchin might have been listening to what norm orenstein had to say thursday night, or more likely, he probably did read norm orenstein's op-ed piece in the "washington post" entitled democrats can't kill the filibuster but they can gut it. in that op-ed, he talked about things he thought specifically joe manchin might consider and which joe manchin appears to be now considering. joining us is norm orenstein, and norm, when i listened to joe manchin i thought, this is a huge public breakthrough in his thinking about the senate rules, and two, i thought, he's been reading and listening to norm orenstein. >> i thought the same thing, lawrence, and i was giddy, as a matter of fact. we've still got a long ways to go and we'll see what details work out. but i consciously, and al franken and i have been talking to senators and we've been talking this through for a while as well, but consciously wanted to look at something that i knew would resonate with people like manchin and sinema and feinstein and some others who were not going to be willing to completely abolish this rule 22, but would actually make a real difference in terms of giving democrats a fighting chance and more to get some top priorities through. you know, something else i thought along those lines in the last day or two, gabby giffords is now spearheading the effort in the house and they'll vote on it real soon to get universal background checks. if we didn't change the rules on something like this, it would just die in the senate. nobody would really pay attention to it. 90% of americans support it. make him have to come up with 40 votes on a regular basis to explain why there are universal background checks on guns. that democracy reform and other things, we can begin to get some traction if we can make some sensible changes. >> norm, what i loved about your article and the reason i wanted to have you on discussing this last week is you said in the article, and you told us, that you had been listening very carefully to what joe manchin has been publicly saying in the past about this senate rule. you've been listening very carefully to what senator sinema has been saying. and what you tried to do was come up with a proposal that actually answers the concerns that joe manchin has publicly presented, and that is exactly the way you find compromise in the senate. you first of all listen to what that person is saying, and at first it sounds impossible, there is nothing i can do with this. but you thought your way through it. and one of the biggest ideas you have is this flipping of the 60-vote requirement we currently have in the senate, a 60-vote requirement to end a debate, and then go on to voting. you're saying make that a 40-vote requirement to continue the debate. that would give joe manchin the minority's protection that he wants to give them, but it would be much harder for the republicans to actually achieve that the way you see it. >> exactly so. and the idea here is, if you believe what manchin has been saying, this sort of notion that, you know, you want to have a minority that feels intensely about an issue, have to go to the mat literally and the mattresses literally to make their point of view known and to be able to at least block things for a while, but now there is no pressure on the minority. they have to do nothing to do filibusters on any issue. so let's return and make it painful to use. and we can add a number of things that make it more painful and more difficult. at minimum they're only going to do it infrequently because it will be a difficult thing for them to entertain, and if we can do this on issues that really matter for people where there is strong majority support, we can break that, and we can actually accomplish some of the areas -- progress in areas like democracy reform which are absolutely essential. and we have to, as you say, you know the senate inside-out. if you're going to get to 50, you're going to have to meet people and meet their objections, and i think there are ways to do this and ways also -- you know, he wants to have debate and deliberation. this is going to require debate and deliberation. if we make him stay on the floor and it has be jermaine, no reading of "green eggs and ham" by ted cruz and others, but we have to deliberate those issues, there will be tremendous pressure on him. >> what i was struck by is you have been carefully paying attention the last year to joe manchin's language about this. the language he was using sunday included this new element that he said to every interviewer. he wants it to be painful. he wants it to be painful for the republicans to try to get up there and block things, and that seems to me to be the zone in which you can work some kind of ru