been slated for a couple of days and their timetable has been fairly strict throughout this, but there is plenty of room for manoeuvre. they don't normally sit on a friday but i think they are expecting to speak to him. not that many people behind me today, but we have seen over the past four weeks, we have seen protesters, plenty of media, so we can expect all of that tomorrow as well, but his testimony crucially important, and he has received plenty of criticism from civil servants, advisers, scientific advisers, to name but a few, who said he showed nuclear levels of confidence in dealing with the crisis and he will certainly want to face some of that criticism down. but interesting, yesterday, we had from michael gove, the chancellor of the duchy of is that, that brilliant name in british politics, which basically means he was in charge of the cabinet office, and he was pretty defensive of matt hancock, who he said showed wisdom and foresight in many of the decisions he had risen to the challenge. so it is not all criticism. find he had risen to the challenge. so it is not all criticism.— is not all criticism. and “ust going back to the — is not all criticism. and “ust going back to the first h is not all criticism. and just going back to the first testimony - is not all criticism. and just going back to the first testimony we - is not all criticism. and just going j back to the first testimony we are expecting today, which is from professor harris, how does her testimony so far, and obviously there is more to come this morning, but in terms of the tone, in terms of the questioning, how does her testimony compared to that of the other scientists that we have heard from so far?— from so far? well, again, all of it should be — from so far? well, again, all of it should be taken _ from so far? well, again, all of it should be taken in _ from so far? well, again, all of it should be taken in the _ from so far? well, again, all of it should be taken in the round, - should be taken in the round, because there was plenty from the scientist last week and i think what we start to here is a similar picture, and obviously they are not politicians. we heard a lot last week about how the government had this mantra about following the science and many of the scientists found that difficult to swallow because what they felt was that scientists were being scapegoated for some of the unpopular political decisions that were being made, and in the end it was the politicians making those decisions, but it felt at some points it was the scientists being blamed, if you like, for some of those decisions, so we may get to a bit of that. this afternoon, we are also expecting to hear from dominic raab. he was the deputy prime minister during the covid pandemic and officially he was running the country at one point, when borisjohnson was hospitalised with covid, so no doubt the inquiry will want to hear about exactly how that worked, particularly in boris johnson's absence. dominic raab subsequently resigned from government following a big scandal about bullying accusations. so much has been made of a toxic culture at the centre of government, so i think he will definitely face questions about whether that was true while he was in place and exactly what that might have meant. so i think we are going to get all sorts of different things today, starting with the science, but as ever, ending with the politics. science, but as ever, ending with the politics-— science, but as ever, ending with the politics. thank you very much. we can see _ the politics. thank you very much. we can see now— the politics. thank you very much. we can see now that _ the politics. thank you very much. we can see now that the - the politics. thank you very much. we can see now that the inquiry i the politics. thank you very much. i we can see now that the inquiry has resumed and professor damejenny harries has started giving evidence. it was over that weekend that the meetings — it was over that weekend that the meetings on the friday the 13th and the cobra _ meetings on the friday the 13th and the cobra meeting on the monday and sunday _ the cobra meeting on the monday and sunday i_ the cobra meeting on the monday and sunday. i wanted to ask you about the detait— sunday. i wanted to ask you about the detail in the e—mail at the bottom — the detail in the e—mail at the bottom of— the detail in the e—mail at the bottom of the page. you, i think it is obvious, — bottom of the page. you, i think it is obvious, were working that weekend, _ is obvious, were working that weekend, you were in no doubt involved — weekend, you were in no doubt involved in_ weekend, you were in no doubt involved in all the discussions and deliberations and trying to understand the latest data, which was causing some concern. but what we see _ was causing some concern. but what we see here — was causing some concern. but what we see here is that you are drawing attention— we see here is that you are drawing attention to — we see here is that you are drawing attention to one particular issue relating — attention to one particular issue relating to the prospect of imposing more _ relating to the prospect of imposing more severe measures, and picking it up more severe measures, and picking it up a couple _ more severe measures, and picking it up a couple of lines in, can ijust ask if_ up a couple of lines in, can ijust ask if someone somewhere is also putting _ ask if someone somewhere is also pulling together a list of other risks_ pulling together a list of other risks of— pulling together a list of other risks of going to early, or, in some cases, _ risks of going to early, or, in some cases. going — risks of going to early, or, in some cases, going at all? you say that issues _ cases, going at all? you say that issues keep being mentioned but you are not— issues keep being mentioned but you are not seeing them coming through in the _ are not seeing them coming through in the paper work and you are asking for assurance that these issues are being _ for assurance that these issues are being considered somewhere. and then you say— being considered somewhere. and then you say this, _ being considered somewhere. and then you say this, the critical ones are of implementing programmes without effective _ of implementing programmes without effective social care and community support _ effective social care and community support systems in place which are obvious— support systems in place which are obvious to — support systems in place which are obvious to everyone and have been mentioned — obvious to everyone and have been mentioned. the ones that bother me most _ mentioned. the ones that bother me most of— mentioned. the ones that bother me most of all— mentioned. the ones that bother me most of all currently are those in relation — most of all currently are those in relation to— most of all currently are those in relation to safeguarding adults and children— relation to safeguarding adults and children and domestic violence more generallv _ children and domestic violence more generally. you say that for some, these _ generally. you say that for some, these risks— generally. you say that for some, these risks will be considerably greater— these risks will be considerably greater than the negative health impact _ greater than the negative health impact from coronavirus. so there are you _ impact from coronavirus. so there are you identifying at an early stage — are you identifying at an early stage those risks of safeguarding domestic violence. it is obvious that you — domestic violence. it is obvious that you were concerned about them. can you _ that you were concerned about them. can you say _ that you were concerned about them. can you say something about why and also what _ can you say something about why and also what happened as a result of this e—mail? 30 also what happened as a result of this e-mail?_ also what happened as a result of this e-mail? so i think you can see from that e-mail _ this e-mail? so i think you can see from that e-mail that _ this e-mail? so i think you can see from that e-mail that things - this e-mail? so i think you can see from that e-mail that things were l from that e—mail that things were moving _ from that e—mail that things were moving fast _ from that e—mail that things were moving fast i _ from that e—mail that things were moving fast. i was _ from that e—mail that things were moving fast. i was not _ from that e—mail that things were moving fast. i was not in - from that e—mail that things were moving fast. i was not in the - from that e—mail that things were| moving fast. i was not in the main meetings — moving fast. i was not in the main meetings that _ moving fast. i was not in the main meetings that you _ moving fast. i was not in the main meetings that you discussed, - moving fast. i was not in the main meetings that you discussed, buti moving fast. i was not in the main| meetings that you discussed, but i will have _ meetings that you discussed, but i will have been— meetings that you discussed, but i will have been trying _ meetings that you discussed, but i will have been trying to _ meetings that you discussed, but i will have been trying to respond i meetings that you discussed, but i i will have been trying to respond and input to— will have been trying to respond and input to any— will have been trying to respond and input to any potential _ will have been trying to respond and input to any potential guidance - input to any potential guidance coming — input to any potential guidance coming through. _ input to any potential guidance coming through. i— input to any potential guidance coming through. i always - input to any potential guidance coming through. i always put. input to any potential guidance i coming through. i always put my input to any potential guidance - coming through. i always put my old director— coming through. i always put my old director of— coming through. i always put my old director of public— coming through. i always put my old director of public health _ coming through. i always put my old director of public health hat - coming through. i always put my old director of public health hat on - director of public health hat on whenever— director of public health hat on whenever i_ director of public health hat on whenever i am _ director of public health hat on whenever i am working, - director of public health hat on l whenever i am working, whether director of public health hat on - whenever i am working, whether in central— whenever i am working, whether in central government— whenever i am working, whether in central government or— whenever i am working, whether in central government or elsewhere, i central government or elsewhere, because _ central government or elsewhere, because it — central government or elsewhere, because it immediately— central government or elsewhere, because it immediately takes - central government or elsewhere, because it immediately takes youl central government or elsewhere, . because it immediately takes you to thinking, _ because it immediately takes you to thinking, what — because it immediately takes you to thinking, what happens _ because it immediately takes you to thinking, what happens to _ because it immediately takes you to thinking, what happens to a - because it immediately takes you to thinking, what happens to a family, | thinking, what happens to a family, an individual— thinking, what happens to a family, an individual in— thinking, what happens to a family, an individual in the _ thinking, what happens to a family, an individual in the street, - thinking, what happens to a family, | an individual in the street, someone who is— an individual in the street, someone who is in_ an individual in the street, someone who is in difficulty— an individual in the street, someone who is in difficulty already, - an individual in the street, someone who is in difficulty already, so- who is in difficulty already, so raising — who is in difficulty already, so raising these _ who is in difficulty already, so raising these things, - who is in difficulty already, so raising these things, these i who is in difficulty already, sol raising these things, these will who is in difficulty already, so- raising these things, these will be normal— raising these things, these will be normal things— raising these things, these will be normal things to _ raising these things, these will be normal things to think— raising these things, these will be normal things to think about - raising these things, these will be normal things to think about if. raising these things, these will be | normal things to think about if you are public— normal things to think about if you are public health _ normal things to think about if you are public health trained. - normal things to think about if you are public health trained. the - are public health trained. the concern — are public health trained. the concern i _ are public health trained. the concern i had _ are public health trained. the concern i had was, _ are public health trained. the concern i had was, i- are public health trained. the concern i had was, i could - are public health trained. the| concern i had was, i could not are public health trained. the - concern i had was, i could not see them _ concern i had was, i could not see them coming _ concern i had was, i could not see them coming through— concern i had was, i could not see them coming through consistently concern i had was, i could not see . them coming through consistently in them coming through consistently in the documents, _ them coming through consistently in the documents, and _ them coming through consistently in the documents, and a _ them coming through consistently in the documents, and a clinical- the documents, and a clinical colleague _ the documents, and a clinical colleague working _ the documents, and a clinical colleague working with - the documents, and a clinical colleague working with me i the documents, and a clinical. colleague working with me and working — colleague working with me and working on— colleague working with me and working on the _ colleague working with me and working on the documents - colleague working with me and - working on the documents continued to write _ working on the documents continued to write things — working on the documents continued to write things into _ working on the documents continued to write things into them _ working on the documents continued to write things into them and - working on the documents continued to write things into them and then i to write things into them and then the next _ to write things into them and then the next version _ to write things into them and then the next version that _ to write things into them and then the next version that came - to write things into them and then the next version that came back. the next version that came back would _ the next version that came back would not — the next version that came back would not have _ the next version that came back would not have them _ the next version that came back would not have them in- the next version that came back would not have them in there. i the next version that came back. would not have them in there. one the next version that came back- would not have them in there. one of the problems— would not have them in there. one of the problems is, _ would not have them in there. one of the problems is, as _ would not have them in there. one of the problems is, as you _ would not have them in there. one of the problems is, as you can _ would not have them in there. one of the problems is, as you can see, - would not have them in there. one of the problems is, as you can see, i- the problems is, as you can see, i will he _ the problems is, as you can see, i will be commenting, _ the problems is, as you can see, i will be commenting, that- the problems is, as you can see, i will be commenting, that was- the problems is, as you can see, i will be commenting, that was myl the problems is, as you can see, i- will be commenting, that was myjob, to advise, _ will be commenting, that was myjob, to advise, i_ will be commenting, that was myjob, to advise, i was — will be commenting, that was myjob, to advise, i was not _ will be commenting, that was myjob, to advise, i was not in _ will be commenting, that was myjob, to advise, i was not in control- will be commenting, that was myjob, to advise, i was not in control of- to advise, i was not in control of policy, _ to advise, i was not in control of policy, and _ to advise, i was not in control of policy, and documents - to advise, i was not in control of policy, and documents might. to advise, i was not in control of policy, and documents might goj to advise, i was not in control of. policy, and documents might go off into the _ policy, and documents might go off into the ether, _ policy, and documents might go off into the ether, and _ policy, and documents might go off into the ether, and then— policy, and documents might go off into the ether, and then the - policy, and documents might go off into the ether, and then the next. into the ether, and then the next version _ into the ether, and then the next version would _ into the ether, and then the next version would come _ into the ether, and then the next version would come back, - into the ether, and then the next version would come back, and i into the ether, and then the next version would come back, and it| into the ether, and then the next- version would come back, and it was not easy— version would come back, and it was not easy to _ version would come back, and it was not easy to control— version would come back, and it was not easy to control them _ version would come back, and it was not easy to control them but - version would come back, and it was not easy to control them but what i not easy to control them but what this shows — not easy to control them but what this shows is, _ not easy to control them but what this shows is, these _ not easy to control them but what this shows is, these issues - not easy to control them but what this shows is, these issues were i this shows is, these issues were definitely— this shows is, these issues were definitely being _ this shows is, these issues were definitely being raised. - this shows is, these issues were definitely being raised. the?- this shows is, these issues were definitely being raised. they were bein: definitely being raised. they were being raised. _ definitely being raised. they were being raised, and _ definitely being raised. they were being raised, and i— definitely being raised. they were being raised, and i am _ definitely being raised. they were being raised, and i am not- being raised, and i am not suggesting it was necessarily part of your— suggesting it was necessarily part of your function to see them through to the _ of your function to see them through to the end. _ of your function to see them through to the end, but other evidence we have _ to the end, but other evidence we have heard — to the end, but other evidence we have heard is similar, really. it shows— have heard is similar, really. it shows people raising these issues but perhaps nothing being done about them _ but perhaps nothing being done about them. what was your memory, perhaps not tied _ them. what was your memory, perhaps not tied to _ them. what was your memory, perhaps not tied to this e—mail, but of that time? _ not tied to this e—mail, but of that time? where are you conscious that these _ time? where are you conscious that these concerns that you have raised, and we _ these concerns that you have raised, and we have — these concerns that you have raised, and we have seen others raising, were _ and we have seen others raising, were taken— and we have seen others raising, were taken forward? or was it a situation — were taken forward? or was it a situation where occasionally it was raised _ situation where occasionally it was raised but — situation where occasionally it was raised but actually nothing was done, — raised but actually nothing was done, at — raised but actually nothing was done, at least in that early period. verv— done, at least in that early period. very complex, because i am sitting in the _ very complex, because i am sitting in the department _ very complex, because i am sitting in the department of— very complex, because i am sitting in the department of health, - very complex, because i am sitting in the department of health, many| very complex, because i am sitting . in the department of health, many of these _ in the department of health, many of these issues — in the department of health, many of these issues will— in the department of health, many of these issues will be _ in the department of health, many of these issues will be sitting _ these issues will be sitting predominantly— these issues will be sitting predominantly in - these issues will be sitting predominantly in the - these issues will be sittingl predominantly in the realm these issues will be sitting. predominantly in the realm of these issues will be sitting - predominantly in the realm of the department— predominantly in the realm of the department for, _ predominantly in the realm of the department for, now _ predominantly in the realm of the department for, now a _ predominantly in the realm of the department for, now a levelling l predominantly in the realm of the . department for, now a levelling up, and housing — department for, now a levelling up, and housing and _ department for, now a levelling up, and housing and communities, - department for, now a levelling up, and housing and communities, so . department for, now a levelling up, i and housing and communities, so you are not— and housing and communities, so you are not seeing— and housing and communities, so you are not seeing what— and housing and communities, so you are not seeing what activity— and housing and communities, so you are not seeing what activity is - are not seeing what activity is going — are not seeing what activity is going on. _ are not seeing what activity is going on. so— are not seeing what activity is going on. so i_ are not seeing what activity is going on, so i can't— are not seeing what activity is going on, so i can't answer. going on, so i can't answer necessarily, _ going on, so i can't answer necessarily, but— going on, so i can't answer necessarily, but i- going on, so i can't answer necessarily, but i did - going on, so i can't answer necessarily, but i did not l going on, so i can't answer. necessarily, but i did not see going on, so i can't answer- necessarily, but i did not see the relevant — necessarily, but i did not see the relevant responses, _ necessarily, but i did not see the relevant responses, and - necessarily, but i did not see the relevant responses, and even . necessarily, but i did not see the . relevant responses, and even when colleagues — relevant responses, and even when colleagues were _ relevant responses, and even when colleagues were writing _ relevant responses, and even when colleagues were writing things - relevant responses, and even when colleagues were writing things into| colleagues were writing things into guidance, — colleagues were writing things into guidance, they— colleagues were writing things into guidance, they were _ colleagues were writing things into guidance, they were coming - colleagues were writing things into guidance, they were coming back. guidance, they were coming back taken _ guidance, they were coming back taken out, — guidance, they were coming back taken out, so— guidance, they were coming back taken out, so i _ guidance, they were coming back taken out, so i think— guidance, they were coming back taken out, so i think also- guidance, they were coming back taken out, so i think also there . guidance, they were coming back. taken out, so i think also there was evidence _ taken out, so i think also there was evidence around _ taken out, so i think also there was evidence around this, _ taken out, so i think also there was evidence around this, because - taken out, so i think also there was evidence around this, because as, i evidence around this, because as, you know. — evidence around this, because as, you know. the _ evidence around this, because as, you know, the numbers— evidence around this, because as, you know, the numbers of- evidence around this, because as, i you know, the numbers of infection and started — you know, the numbers of infection and started to — you know, the numbers of infection and started to rise, _ you know, the numbers of infection and started to rise, i— you know, the numbers of infection and started to rise, i know- you know, the numbers of infection and started to rise, i know that- you know, the numbers of infection and started to rise, i know that the| and started to rise, i know that the domestic— and started to rise, i know that the domestic violence _ and started to rise, i know that the domestic violence third _ and started to rise, i know that the domestic violence third sector- domestic violence third sector voluntary— domestic violence third sector voluntary sector— domestic violence third sector voluntary sector charities - domestic violence third sectorl voluntary sector charities were receiving — voluntary sector charities were receiving higher— voluntary sector charities were receiving higher numbers- voluntary sector charities were receiving higher numbers of. voluntary sector charities were . receiving higher numbers of calls because — receiving higher numbers of calls because the _ receiving higher numbers of calls because the likelihood, - receiving higher numbers of calls because the likelihood, as- receiving higher numbers of calls because the likelihood, as the i because the likelihood, as the public— because the likelihood, as the public understanding - because the likelihood, as the public understanding that - because the likelihood, as the| public understanding that they because the likelihood, as the - public understanding that they might be a lockdown, — public understanding that they might be a lockdown, rose, _ public understanding that they might be a lockdown, rose, then— public understanding that they might be a lockdown, rose, then the - public understanding that they might be a lockdown, rose, then the call. be a lockdown, rose, then the call rates _ be a lockdown, rose, then the call rates suddenly— be a lockdown, rose, then the call rates suddenly shot _ be a lockdown, rose, then the call rates suddenly shot up _ be a lockdown, rose, then the call rates suddenly shot up as - be a lockdown, rose, then the call rates suddenly shot up as people i rates suddenly shot up as people could _ rates suddenly shot up as people could see — rates suddenly shot up as people could see what _ rates suddenly shot up as people could see what might— rates suddenly shot up as people could see what might happen - rates suddenly shot up as people | could see what might happen and rates suddenly shot up as people - could see what might happen and that their risk— could see what might happen and that their risk would _ could see what might happen and that their risk would increase. _ could see what might happen and that their risk would increase. i— could see what might happen and that their risk would increase. i did - could see what might happen and that their risk would increase. i did not - their risk would increase. i did not see that _ their risk would increase. i did not see that coming _ their risk would increase. i did not see that coming through - their risk would increase. i did not see that coming through in- their risk would increase. i did not . see that coming through in guidance at that— see that coming through in guidance at that time — see that coming through in guidance at that time it— see that coming through in guidance at that time. it was _ see that coming through in guidance at that time. it was corrected - at that time. it was corrected later, — at that time. it was corrected later, lrut— at that time. it was corrected later, but personally- at that time. it was corrected later, but personally i- at that time. it was corrected later, but personally i don't. at that time. it was corrected - later, but personally i don't think it was— later, but personally i don't think it was given — later, but personally i don't think it was given sufficient _ later, but personally i don't think it was given sufficient attention, i it was given sufficient attention, notwithstanding _ it was given sufficient attention, notwithstanding everybody- it was given sufficient attention, notwithstanding everybody wasl notwithstanding everybody was working — notwithstanding everybody was working at _ notwithstanding everybody was working at a _ notwithstanding everybody was working at a very _ notwithstanding everybody was working at a very significant. notwithstanding everybody was i working at a very significant pace. that is— working at a very significant pace. that is understood, _ working at a very significant pace. that is understood, but _ working at a very significant pace. that is understood, but it - working at a very significant pace. that is understood, but it is - working at a very significant pace. that is understood, but it is rightl that is understood, but it is right that these — that is understood, but it is right that these risks you are identifying were not— that these risks you are identifying were not the type of risks that would — were not the type of risks that would slowly develop over the period of a lockdown, these were risks that would _ of a lockdown, these were risks that would present themselves as soon as families, _ would present themselves as soon as families, wives, girlfriends, were required — families, wives, girlfriends, were required to— families, wives, girlfriends, were required to stay in the same place as other— required to stay in the same place as other people. and required to stay in the same place as other people.— required to stay in the same place as other people. and then they would be sliahtl , as other people. and then they would be slightly, potentially _ as other people. and then they would be slightly, potentially lost _ as other people. and then they would be slightly, potentially lost to - as other people. and then they would be slightly, potentially lost to the - be slightly, potentially lost to the system _ be slightly, potentially lost to the system so — be slightly, potentially lost to the system. so once _ be slightly, potentially lost to the system, so once the _ be slightly, potentially lost to the system, so once the lockdown - system, so once the lockdown occurred — system, so once the lockdown occurred and _ system, so once the lockdown occurred and people _ system, so once the lockdown occurred and people were - system, so once the lockdown i occurred and people were staying system, so once the lockdown - occurred and people were staying at home, _ occurred and people were staying at home, and — occurred and people were staying at home, and we — occurred and people were staying at home, and we are _ occurred and people were staying at home, and we are probably- occurred and people were staying at home, and we are probably not- home, and we are probably not covering — home, and we are probably not covering children— home, and we are probably not covering children at _ home, and we are probably not covering children at the - home, and we are probably not. covering children at the moment, home, and we are probably not- covering children at the moment, but there _ covering children at the moment, but there are _ covering children at the moment, but there are children— covering children at the moment, but there are children who _ covering children at the moment, but there are children who would - covering children at the moment, but there are children who would be - covering children at the moment, but there are children who would be at i there are children who would be at home _ there are children who would be at home and — there are children who would be at home and invisible _ there are children who would be at home and invisible to _ there are children who would be at home and invisible to the - there are children who would be at home and invisible to the system i there are children who would be atl home and invisible to the system in a way— home and invisible to the system in a way that— home and invisible to the system in a way that had _ home and invisible to the system in a way that had perhaps _ home and invisible to the system in a way that had perhaps not - home and invisible to the system in a way that had perhaps not happenl a way that had perhaps not happen before _ a way that had perhaps not happen before i_ a way that had perhaps not happen before i know _ a way that had perhaps not happen before. i know there _ a way that had perhaps not happen before. i know there was _ a way that had perhaps not happen before. i know there was a - a way that had perhaps not happen before. i know there was a lot - a way that had perhaps not happen before. i know there was a lot of. before. i know there was a lot of work _ before. i know there was a lot of work subsequently _ before. i know there was a lot of work subsequently and - before. i know there was a lot of work subsequently and my- before. i know there was a lot of. work subsequently and my concern before. i know there was a lot of- work subsequently and my concern at this point— work subsequently and my concern at this point was, — work subsequently and my concern at this point was, was _ work subsequently and my concern at this point was, was somebody- this point was, was somebody considering _ this point was, was somebody considering that _ this point was, was somebody considering that as _ this point was, was somebody considering that as the - this point was, was somebodyj considering that as the curtain dropped. _ considering that as the curtain dropped, almost? _ considering that as the curtain dropped, almost? find- considering that as the curtain dropped, almost?— considering that as the curtain dropped, almost? and i think you have said that _ dropped, almost? and i think you have said that from _ dropped, almost? and i think you have said that from your - have said that from your understanding at the time, not enough — understanding at the time, not enough was done to think about those sort of— enough was done to think about those sort of concerns at the time. thatl sort of concerns at the time. that i couldn't see. _ sort of concerns at the time. that i couldn't see, yes, _ sort of concerns at the time. that i couldn't see, yes, i— sort of concerns at the time. that i couldn't see, yes, i agree. - sort of concerns at the time. that i couldn't see, yes, i agree. i- sort of concerns at the time. that i couldn't see, yes, i agree. i want. couldn't see, yes, i agree. i want to ask you _ couldn't see, yes, i agree. i want to ask you a _ couldn't see, yes, i agree. i want to ask you a few _ couldn't see, yes, i agree. i want to ask you a few questions - couldn't see, yes, i agree. i want to ask you a few questions about| to ask you a few questions about care homes, and, again, you mentioned _ care homes, and, again, you mentioned later work and of course it is right _ mentioned later work and of course it is right that the inquiry will be looking — it is right that the inquiry will be looking much more carefully and in much _ looking much more carefully and in much more — looking much more carefully and in much more detail at care homes in a further— much more detail at care homes in a further module, but, that said, you were _ further module, but, that said, you were the _ further module, but, that said, you were the clinical co—chair of a group — were the clinical co—chair of a group of— were the clinical co—chair of a group of the sage social care working _ group of the sage social care working group from, well, you tell us, but _ working group from, well, you tell us, but i _ working group from, well, you tell us, but i think later in 2020?| us, but i think later in 2020? think it was us, but i think later in 2020? i think it was a care home modelling group, _ think it was a care home modelling group, which — think it was a care home modelling group, which had _ think it was a care home modelling group, which had been _ think it was a care home modelling group, which had been set - think it was a care home modelling group, which had been set up - think it was a care home modelling group, which had been set up as. think it was a care home modelling group, which had been set up as a| group, which had been set up as a subgroup— group, which had been set up as a subgroup of— group, which had been set up as a subgroup of sage. _ group, which had been set up as a subgroup of sage, and _ group, which had been set up as a subgroup of sage, and initially- group, which had been set up as a subgroup of sage, and initially i. subgroup of sage, and initially i understand, _ subgroup of sage, and initially i understand, i— subgroup of sage, and initially i understand, i was— subgroup of sage, and initially i understand, i was not— subgroup of sage, and initially i understand, i was not part - subgroup of sage, and initially i understand, i was not part of. subgroup of sage, and initially i| understand, i was not part of it, subgroup of sage, and initially i. understand, i was not part of it, to look at _ understand, i was not part of it, to look at some — understand, i was not part of it, to look at some of— understand, i was not part of it, to look at some of the _ understand, i was not part of it, to look at some of the concerns - understand, i was not part of it, to i look at some of the concerns around rates _ look at some of the concerns around rates of _ look at some of the concerns around rates of infection _ look at some of the concerns around rates of infection in _ look at some of the concerns around rates of infection in care _ look at some of the concerns around rates of infection in care homes, - rates of infection in care homes, and professor— rates of infection in care homes, and professor hall— rates of infection in care homes, and professor hall comes - rates of infection in care homes, and professor hall comes very. rates of infection in care homes, - and professor hall comes very much from a _ and professor hall comes very much from a modelling _ and professor hall comes very much from a modelling background, - and professor hall comes very much from a modelling background, and i and professor hall comes very much i from a modelling background, and we have heard _ from a modelling background, and we have heard very— from a modelling background, and we have heard very much _ from a modelling background, and we have heard very much about - have heard very much about modellers, _ have heard very much about modellers, and _ have heard very much about modellers, and then - have heard very much about modellers, and then i - have heard very much about modellers, and then i thinkl modellers, and then i think charlotte _ modellers, and then i think charlotte watts, _ modellers, and then i think charlotte watts, the - modellers, and then i think charlotte watts, the chief. charlotte watts, the chief scientific— charlotte watts, the chief scientific adviser - charlotte watts, the chief scientific adviser for- charlotte watts, the chief scientific adviser for the i charlotte watts, the chief- scientific adviser for the foreign office _ scientific adviser for the foreign office at— scientific adviser for the foreign office at the _ scientific adviser for the foreign office at the time, _ scientific adviser for the foreign office at the time, but _ scientific adviser for the foreign office at the time, but sitting i scientific adviser for the foreignj office at the time, but sitting on sage. _ office at the time, but sitting on sage. supported _ office at the time, but sitting on sage, supported those - office at the time, but sitting onj sage, supported those meetings office at the time, but sitting on i sage, supported those meetings as well, she _ sage, supported those meetings as well. she stepped _ sage, supported those meetings as well, she stepped down— sage, supported those meetings as well, she stepped down and - sage, supported those meetings as well, she stepped down and i- sage, supported those meetings as well, she stepped down and i think| well, she stepped down and i think it was— well, she stepped down and i think it was around — well, she stepped down and i think it was around the _ well, she stepped down and i think it was around the beginning - well, she stepped down and i think it was around the beginning of - well, she stepped down and i think| it was around the beginning ofjuly, after the _ it was around the beginning ofjuly, after the first— it was around the beginning ofjuly, after the first wave _ it was around the beginning ofjuly, after the first wave but _ it was around the beginning ofjuly, after the first wave but after - it was around the beginning ofjuly, after the first wave but after the . after the first wave but after the winter _ after the first wave but after the winter period. _ after the first wave but after the winter period, that _ after the first wave but after the winter period, that patrick- after the first wave but after the i winter period, that patrick vallance asked _ winter period, that patrick vallance asked me _ winter period, that patrick vallance asked me if— winter period, that patrick vallance asked me if i — winter period, that patrick vallance asked me if i would _ winter period, that patrick vallance asked me if i would co—chair, - winter period, that patrick vallance asked me if i would co—chair, and l winter period, that patrick vallance asked me if i would co—chair, and i| asked me if i would co—chair, and i remember— asked me if i would co—chair, and i remember speaking _ asked me if i would co—chair, and i remember speaking to— asked me if i would co—chair, and i remember speaking to the - asked me if i would co—chair, and i remember speaking to the cmo i asked me if i would co—chair, and i remember speaking to the cmo at| asked me if i would co—chair, and i- remember speaking to the cmo at that time and _ remember speaking to the cmo at that time and part— remember speaking to the cmo at that time and part of— remember speaking to the cmo at that time and part of that, _ remember speaking to the cmo at that time and part of that, i— remember speaking to the cmo at that time and part of that, i think, - remember speaking to the cmo at that time and part of that, i think, was- time and part of that, i think, was because _ time and part of that, i think, was because i— time and part of that, i think, was because i had _ time and part of that, i think, was because i had worked _ time and part of that, i think, was because i had worked in— time and part of that, i think, was because i had worked in local- because i had worked in local authorities, _ because i had worked in local authorities, i— because i had worked in local authorities, i had _ because i had worked in local authorities, i had supported. authorities, i had supported commissioning _ authorities, i had supported commissioning of— authorities, i had supported commissioning of services, i authorities, i had supported| commissioning of services, i authorities, i had supported - commissioning of services, i had worked _ commissioning of services, i had worked in — commissioning of services, i had worked in care _ commissioning of services, i had worked in care homes— commissioning of services, i had worked in care homes as - commissioning of services, i had worked in care homes as a - commissioning of services, i had worked in care homes as a care i commissioning of services, i had - worked in care homes as a care home assistant. _ worked in care homes as a care home assistant. and — worked in care homes as a care home assistant. and i— worked in care homes as a care home assistant, and i had _ worked in care homes as a care home assistant, and i had recently- worked in care homes as a care home assistant, and i had recently been. assistant, and i had recently been using _ assistant, and i had recently been using services— assistant, and i had recently been using services as _ assistant, and i had recently been using services as well, _ assistant, and i had recently been using services as well, so - assistant, and i had recently been using services as well, so i - assistant, and i had recently been using services as well, so i think. using services as well, so i think there _ using services as well, so i think there was— using services as well, so i think there was a _ using services as well, so i think there was a knowledge - using services as well, so i think there was a knowledge that - using services as well, so i think| there was a knowledge that there using services as well, so i think- there was a knowledge that there was quite a _ there was a knowledge that there was quite a lot— there was a knowledge that there was quite a lot of— there was a knowledge that there was quite a lot of practical— quite a lot of practical understanding. - quite a lot of practical understanding. i- quite a lot of practical understanding. i hadl quite a lot of practical- understanding. i had also been working — understanding. i had also been working with _ understanding. i had also been working with the _ understanding. i had also been working with the minister - understanding. i had also been working with the minister for l understanding. i had also been. working with the minister for cape. i would _ working with the minister for cape. i would rather— working with the minister for cape. i would rather run _ working with the minister for cape. i would rather run towards - working with the minister for cape. i would rather run towards that. i i would rather run towards that. that _ i would rather run towards that. that was — i would rather run towards that. that was not _ i would rather run towards that. that was not part _ i would rather run towards that. that was not part of _ i would rather run towards that. that was not part of my- i would rather run towards that. that was not part of myjob - i would rather run towards that. that was not part of myjob but| i would rather run towards that. i that was not part of myjob but it felt such — that was not part of myjob but it felt such an — that was not part of myjob but it felt such an important _ that was not part of myjob but it felt such an important area - that was not part of myjob but it felt such an important area to - that was not part of myjob but it felt such an important area to tryj felt such an important area to try to link— felt such an important area to try to link together. _ felt such an important area to try to link together. 50 _ felt such an important area to try to link together.— felt such an important area to try to link together. so you think about jul . to link together. so you think about jul , ou to link together. so you think about july. you joined _ to link together. so you think about july, you joined that _ to link together. so you think about july, you joined that committee, i to link together. so you think about | july, you joined that committee, we july, you joined that committee, we will see _ july, you joined that committee, we will see in_ july, you joined that committee, we will see in a — july, you joined that committee, we will see in a moment you were involved — will see in a moment you were involved at— will see in a moment you were involved at least in discussions about— involved at least in discussions about care homes before then, but it was not _ about care homes before then, but it was not any— about care homes before then, but it was not any area you were focusing on? ~ . , was not any area you were focusing on? . ., , ., , , ~ was not any area you were focusing on? ,, ~ was not any area you were focusing on? . .,, ., , , r y., ., on? well, as a deputy cmo, you would be asked to — on? well, as a deputy cmo, you would be asked to look _ on? well, as a deputy cmo, you would be asked to look at _ on? well, as a deputy cmo, you would be asked to look at all _ on? well, as a deputy cmo, you would be asked to look at all sorts _ on? well, as a deputy cmo, you would be asked to look at all sorts of- be asked to look at all sorts of guidance, _ be asked to look at all sorts of guidance, but— be asked to look at all sorts of guidance, but you _ be asked to look at all sorts of guidance, but you don't - be asked to look at all sorts of guidance, but you don't need. be asked to look at all sorts of. guidance, but you don't need any particular— guidance, but you don't need any particular part _ guidance, but you don't need any particular part of _ guidance, but you don't need any particular part of policy. - guidance, but you don't need any particular part of policy. let’s - particular part of policy. let's look at the — particular part of policy. let's look at the document - particular part of policy. let's look at the document and - particular part of policy. let's| look at the document and you particular part of policy— look at the document and you can help us— look at the document and you can help us with it. in fact, from a similar— help us with it. in fact, from a similar period to the documents we have been— similar period to the documents we have been looking at previously, it is the _ have been looking at previously, it is the middle of march, 16th of march, — is the middle of march, 16th of march, in _ is the middle of march, 16th of march, in fact, and if we look first of all— march, in fact, and if we look first of all at _ march, in fact, and if we look first of all at the — march, in fact, and if we look first of all at the e—mail at the bottom, which _ of all at the e—mail at the bottom, which is _ of all at the e—mail at the bottom, which is an— of all at the e—mail at the bottom, which is an e—mail written to you, she says. — which is an e—mail written to you, she says. we _ which is an e—mail written to you, she says, we estimate that approximately two thirds of people in care _ approximately two thirds of people in care homes are over 85. when we introduced _ in care homes are over 85. when we introduced the shielding policy, what _ introduced the shielding policy, what should our approach be to allowing — what should our approach be to allowing patients to be discharged into care _ allowing patients to be discharged into care homes who are symptomatic of covid-i9? — into care homes who are symptomatic of covid—19? my working assumption was we _ of covid—19? my working assumption was we would have to allow discharged to happen and have very strict _ discharged to happen and have very strict infection control, otherwise, presumably, the nhs gets clogged up with people who are not as acutely ill. with people who are not as acutely it and _ with people who are not as acutely ill. and your response on the same day, _ ill. and your response on the same day, you _ ill. and your response on the same day, you say, — ill. and your response on the same day, you say, while the prospect is perhaps— day, you say, while the prospect is perhaps what none of us would wish to plan _ perhaps what none of us would wish to plan for. — perhaps what none of us would wish to plan for. i— perhaps what none of us would wish to plan for, i believe the reality will be — to plan for, i believe the reality will be that we will need to discharge covid—19 positive patients into residential care settings for the reasons you have noted. you say it will— the reasons you have noted. you say it will be _ the reasons you have noted. you say it will be entirely clinically appropriate because the nhs will triage _ appropriate because the nhs will triage those two retain settings for those _ triage those two retain settings for those who — triage those two retain settings for those who can benefit from nhs care, and you _ those who can benefit from nhs care, and you say— those who can benefit from nhs care, and you say the numbers of people with disease will rise sharply within— with disease will rise sharply within a _ with disease will rise sharply within a relatively short timeframe... do you mean the number of people _ timeframe... do you mean the number of people with disease in care homes? — of people with disease in care homes? ., . homes? no, i have written, in the population- _ homes? no, i have written, in the population- it _ homes? no, i have written, in the population. it was _ homes? no, i have written, in the population. it was exactly - homes? no, i have written, in the population. it was exactly that. homes? no, i have written, in the l population. it was exactly that week way the _ population. it was exactly that week way the numbers— population. it was exactly that week way the numbers were _ population. it was exactly that week way the numbers were starting - population. it was exactly that week way the numbers were starting to i way the numbers were starting to rise exponentially _ way the numbers were starting to rise exponentially and _ way the numbers were starting to rise exponentially and it - way the numbers were starting to rise exponentially and it is - way the numbers were starting to rise exponentially and it is that i rise exponentially and it is that context — rise exponentially and it is that context this— rise exponentially and it is that context. this is— rise exponentially and it is that context. this is not— rise exponentially and it is that context. this is not a _ rise exponentially and it is that context. this is not a policy- context. this is not a policy statement, _ context. this is not a policy statement, this— context. this is not a policy statement, this is- context. this is not a policy statement, this is a - context. this is not a policy statement, this is a high. context. this is not a policy. statement, this is a high level context. this is not a policy- statement, this is a high level view that saysm — statement, this is a high level view that saysm ros _ statement, this is a high level view that says... ros was _ statement, this is a high level view that says... ros was the _ statement, this is a high level view that says... ros was the director. that says... ros was the director for social— that says... ros was the director for social care _ that says... ros was the director for social care in _ that says... ros was the director for social care in the _ that says... ros was the director for social care in the department that says... ros was the director. for social care in the department of health _ for social care in the department of health at _ for social care in the department of health at the — for social care in the department of health at the time _ for social care in the department of health at the time and _ for social care in the department of health at the time and it _ for social care in the department of health at the time and it was - for social care in the department of health at the time and it was very i health at the time and it was very much, _ health at the time and it was very much, it— health at the time and it was very much, it was— health at the time and it was very much, it was a— health at the time and it was very much, it was a very _ health at the time and it was very much, it was a very bleak - health at the time and it was veryj much, it was a very bleak picture, because _ much, it was a very bleak picture, because i— much, it was a very bleak picture, because i think— much, it was a very bleak picture, because i think the _ much, it was a very bleak picture, because i think the reality- much, it was a very bleak picture, because i think the reality was, i because i think the reality was, this is— because i think the reality was, this is not— because i think the reality was, this is not an _ because i think the reality was, this is not an invitation- because i think the reality was, this is not an invitation to - because i think the reality was, this is not an invitation to be i this is not an invitation to be discharging _ this is not an invitation to be discharging covid _ this is not an invitation to be discharging covid patients, i this is not an invitation to be| discharging covid patients, it this is not an invitation to be - discharging covid patients, it was actually— discharging covid patients, it was actually the — discharging covid patients, it was actually the reality, _ discharging covid patients, it was actually the reality, which - discharging covid patients, it was actually the reality, which it - discharging covid patients, it was actually the reality, which it says| actually the reality, which it says if hospitals — actually the reality, which it says if hospitals overflow, _ actually the reality, which it says if hospitals overflow, those - actually the reality, which it says if hospitals overflow, those whol actually the reality, which it says i if hospitals overflow, those who can benefit _ if hospitals overflow, those who can benefit from — if hospitals overflow, those who can benefit from treatment _ if hospitals overflow, those who can benefit from treatment will- if hospitals overflow, those who can benefit from treatment will be - if hospitals overflow, those who can benefit from treatment will be the. i benefit from treatment will be the. it does _ benefit from treatment will be the. it does not — benefit from treatment will be the. it does not matter... _ benefit from treatment will be the. it does not matter... hospitals- benefit from treatment will be the. it does not matter... hospitals will| it does not matter... hospitals will have _ it does not matter... hospitals will have to _ it does not matter... hospitals will have to manage _ it does not matter... hospitals will have to manage that. _ it does not matter... hospitals will have to manage that.— have to manage that. well, let's “ust finish have to manage that. well, let's just finish off — have to manage that. well, let's just finish off the _ have to manage that. well, let's just finish off the e-mail- have to manage that. well, let's just finish off the e-mail and - have to manage that. well, let's just finish off the e-mail and i i just finish off the e—mail and i will ask— just finish off the e—mail and i will ask you a question. the reference _ will ask you a question. the reference to the sharp rise... population. absolutely population. no doubt _ population. absolutely population. no doubt including _ population. absolutely population. no doubt including in— population. absolutely population. no doubt including in hospitals. i no doubt including in hospitals. yes _ no doubt including in hospitals. yes 30— no doubt including in hospitals. yes, , ,,. no doubt including in hospitals. yes. , ,, . ., no doubt including in hospitals. yes. , ,,. ., ., , yes. so you suspect within a fairly short time — yes. so you suspect within a fairly short time frame _ yes. so you suspect within a fairly short time frame that _ yes. so you suspect within a fairly short time frame that will - yes. so you suspect within a fairly short time frame that will make . short time frame that will make this, _ short time frame that will make this, which i think you must mean the discharge of symptomatic patients into care homes, fairly normal— patients into care homes, fairly normal practice and more acceptable, but i do _ normal practice and more acceptable, but i do recognise that families and care homes— but i do recognise that families and care homes will not welcome this in the initial— care homes will not welcome this in the initial phase. of course, much of the _ the initial phase. of course, much of the debate about discharging patients from hospital into care homes — patients from hospital into care homes was about asymptomatic patients — homes was about asymptomatic patients. i am homes was about asymptomatic patients. lam not homes was about asymptomatic patients. i am not asking you about that _ patients. i am not asking you about that this— patients. i am not asking you about that this is— patients. i am not asking you about that. this is about people who were symptomatic, who were known or at least _ symptomatic, who were known or at least strongly suspected to be suffering from covid. it actually sa s suffering from covid. it actually says covid-19 — suffering from covid. it actually says covid-19 positive - suffering from covid. it actuallyj says covid-19 positive patients, suffering from covid. it actually i says covid-19 positive patients, so says covid—19 positive patients, so i am _ says covid—19 positive patients, so i am anticipating _ says covid—19 positive patients, so i am anticipating from _ says covid—19 positive patients, so i am anticipating from this - says covid—19 positive patients, so i am anticipating from this that. i am anticipating from this that what _ i am anticipating from this that what will— i am anticipating from this that what will happen _ i am anticipating from this that what will happen is, _ i am anticipating from this that what will happen is, the - i am anticipating from this that what will happen is, the rate . i am anticipating from this that| what will happen is, the rate of increase — what will happen is, the rate of increase in_ what will happen is, the rate of increase in people _ what will happen is, the rate of increase in people in _ what will happen is, the rate of increase in people in the - what will happen is, the rate of- increase in people in the population with covid _ increase in people in the population with covid wru— increase in people in the population with covid will rise _ increase in people in the population with covid will rise absolutely - with covid will rise absolutely exponentially, _ with covid will rise absolutely exponentially, that _ with covid will rise absolutely exponentially, that was - with covid will rise absolutely exponentially, that was the l with covid will rise absolutely i exponentially, that was the data with covid will rise absolutely - exponentially, that was the data we had seen _ exponentially, that was the data we had seen that _ exponentially, that was the data we had seen. that hospitals _ exponentially, that was the data we had seen. that hospitals would - exponentially, that was the data we had seen. that hospitals would do i had seen. that hospitals would do their best — had seen. that hospitals would do their best with _ had seen. that hospitals would do their best with this _ had seen. that hospitals would do their best with this and _ had seen. that hospitals would do their best with this and that - had seen. that hospitals would do their best with this and that we i their best with this and that we would — their best with this and that we would have _ their best with this and that we would have some _ their best with this and that we would have some patients- their best with this and that we would have some patients who| would have some patients who potentially— would have some patients who potentially had _ would have some patients who potentially had gone _ would have some patients who potentially had gone through l would have some patients who l potentially had gone through the most _ potentially had gone through the most acute — potentially had gone through the most acute phase _ potentially had gone through the most acute phase were - potentially had gone through the most acute phase were still- potentially had gone through the i most acute phase were still positive but then _ most acute phase were still positive but then would _ most acute phase were still positive but then would be _ most acute phase were still positive but then would be of— most acute phase were still positive but then would be of less _ most acute phase were still positive but then would be of less need, - but then would be of less need, would _ but then would be of less need, would no — but then would be of less need, would no longer— but then would be of less need, would no longer need _ but then would be of less need, would no longer need acute - but then would be of less need, i would no longer need acute care, but then would be of less need, - would no longer need acute care, and obviously. _ would no longer need acute care, and obviously, hospitals _ would no longer need acute care, and obviously, hospitals will— would no longer need acute care, and obviously, hospitals will be _ obviously, hospitals will be treating _ obviously, hospitals will be treating those _ obviously, hospitals will be treating those then, - obviously, hospitals will be treating those then, that l obviously, hospitals will be . treating those then, that they obviously, hospitals will be - treating those then, that they can treat, _ treating those then, that they can treat, and — treating those then, that they can treat, and these _ treating those then, that they can treat, and these individuals - treating those then, that they can treat, and these individuals will. treating those then, that they cani treat, and these individuals will be safe in_ treat, and these individuals will be safe in terms— treat, and these individuals will be safe in terms of— treat, and these individuals will be safe in terms of their— treat, and these individuals will be safe in terms of their physical- safe in terms of their physical welfare — safe in terms of their physical welfare at _ safe in terms of their physical welfare at the _ safe in terms of their physical welfare at the time _ safe in terms of their physical welfare at the time to - safe in terms of their physical welfare at the time to move i safe in terms of their physical. welfare at the time to move on. otherwise, _ welfare at the time to move on. otherwise, they— welfare at the time to move on. otherwise, they would - welfare at the time to move on. otherwise, they would not - welfare at the time to move on. otherwise, they would not be . welfare at the time to move on. - otherwise, they would not be places for other— otherwise, they would not be places for other peoples _ otherwise, they would not be places for other peoples from _ otherwise, they would not be places for other peoples from care - otherwise, they would not be places for other peoples from care homes i otherwise, they would not be placesl for other peoples from care homes to id for other peoples from care homes to -o in for other peoples from care homes to go in and _ for other peoples from care homes to go in and be — for other peoples from care homes to go in and be treated. _ for other peoples from care homes to go in and be treated. one— for other peoples from care homes to go in and be treated. one understand the louic go in and be treated. one understand the lo . ic or go in and be treated. one understand the logic or the _ go in and be treated. one understand the logic or the need _ go in and be treated. one understand the logic or the need for _ go in and be treated. one understand the logic or the need for this - the logic or the need for this discharge, orat the logic or the need for this discharge, or at least the case, but on any— discharge, or at least the case, but on any view, — discharge, or at least the case, but on any view, what is being discussed in this— on any view, what is being discussed in this e-mail— on any view, what is being discussed in this e—mail is discharging symptomatic covid—19, quite possibly infectious _ symptomatic covid—19, quite possibly infectious covid—19 patients, into care homes. infectious covid-19 patients, into care homes— care homes. just once again, covid-19 _ care homes. just once again, covid-19 positive _ care homes. just once again, covid-19 positive patients, i care homes. just once again, | covid-19 positive patients, not covid—19 positive patients, not symptomatic— covid—19 positive patients, not symptomatic patients, - covid—19 positive patients, not| symptomatic patients, because covid—19 positive patients, not l symptomatic patients, because i don't _ symptomatic patients, because i don't think— symptomatic patients, because i don't think they _ symptomatic patients, because i don't think they have _ symptomatic patients, because i don't think they have ever - symptomatic patients, because i. don't think they have ever been... i don't think they have ever been... [ am don't think they have ever been... am only using that word because don't think they have ever been...“ am only using that word because that is a you _ am only using that word because that is a you -- _ am only using that word because that is a you —— work that has been used. people _ is a you —— work that has been used. people who— is a you —— work that has been used. people who have got covid are being discharged into care homes. this sounds awful. _ discharged into care homes. this sounds awful. this is taking a very hi-h sounds awful. this is taking a very high level— sounds awful. this is taking a very high level vlew— sounds awful. this is taking a very high level view that _ sounds awful. this is taking a very high level view that says - sounds awful. this is taking a very high level view that says if- sounds awful. this is taking a very high level view that says if we - sounds awful. this is taking a veryl high level view that says if we have this enormous _ high level view that says if we have this enormous explosion _ high level view that says if we have this enormous explosion of - high level view that says if we have this enormous explosion of cases l high level view that says if we have | this enormous explosion of cases in the population. _ this enormous explosion of cases in the population. as _ this enormous explosion of cases in the population, as you _ this enormous explosion of cases in the population, as you will- this enormous explosion of cases in the population, as you will see, - the population, as you will see, there _ the population, as you will see, there will— the population, as you will see, there will have _ the population, as you will see, there will have to _ the population, as you will see, there will have to be _ the population, as you will see, there will have to be a - the population, as you will see, there will have to be a national| there will have to be a national triage. — there will have to be a national triage. and _ there will have to be a national triage. and i_ there will have to be a national triage, and i think— there will have to be a national triage, and i think what - there will have to be a national triage, and i think what i - there will have to be a national triage, and i think what i was l triage, and i think what i was trying — triage, and i think what i was trying to— triage, and i think what i was trying to do— triage, and i think what i was trying to do was _ triage, and i think what i was trying to do was explain - triage, and i think what i was trying to do was explain to i triage, and i think what i was i trying to do was explain to ros triage, and i think what i was - trying to do was explain to ros what the size _ trying to do was explain to ros what the size of— trying to do was explain to ros what the size of the — trying to do was explain to ros what the size of the problem _ trying to do was explain to ros what the size of the problem might - trying to do was explain to ros what the size of the problem might be. ii the size of the problem might be. i don't _ the size of the problem might be. i don't think— the size of the problem might be. i don't think it — the size of the problem might be. i don't think it had _ the size of the problem might be. i don't think it had actually - the size of the problem might be. i don't think it had actually quite - don't think it had actually quite registered _ don't think it had actually quite registered. the _ don't think it had actually quite registered. the other- don't think it had actually quite registered. the other thing - don't think it had actually quite registered. the other thing i. don't think it had actually quite - registered. the other thing i would 'ust registered. the other thing i would just like _ registered. the other thing i would just like to — registered. the other thing i would just like to point _ registered. the other thing i would just like to point out _ registered. the other thing i would just like to point out is, _ registered. the other thing i would just like to point out is, there - registered. the other thing i would just like to point out is, there is. just like to point out is, there is a really— just like to point out is, there is a really critical— just like to point out is, there is a really critical point, _ just like to point out is, there is a really critical point, and - just like to point out is, there is a really critical point, and that i a really critical point, and that comes— a really critical point, and that comes through _ a really critical point, and that comes through guidance - a really critical point, and that comes through guidance as i a really critical point, and that| comes through guidance as we a really critical point, and that - comes through guidance as we come through. _ comes through guidance as we come through. in— comes through guidance as we come through. in her— comes through guidance as we come through, in her e—mail, _ comes through guidance as we come through, in her e—mail, which - comes through guidance as we come through, in her e—mail, which is - through, in her e—mail, which is about — through, in her e—mail, which is about my— through, in her e—mail, which is about... my working _ through, in her e—mail, which is| about... my working assumption through, in her e—mail, which is i about... my working assumption is through, in her e—mail, which is - about... my working assumption is we would _ about... my working assumption is we would have _ about... my working assumption is we would have to — about... my working assumption is we would have to allow _ about... my working assumption is we would have to allow discharge - about... my working assumption is we would have to allow discharge to - would have to allow discharge to happen — would have to allow discharge to happen and _ would have to allow discharge to happen and have _ would have to allow discharge to happen and have very— would have to allow discharge to happen and have very strict - happen and have very strict infection— happen and have very strict infection control, _ happen and have very strict infection control, and - happen and have very strict infection control, and that. happen and have very strictl infection control, and that is happen and have very strict - infection control, and that is the critical— infection control, and that is the critical point _ infection control, and that is the critical point.— infection control, and that is the critical point. may i ask whether at the time of — critical point. may i ask whether at the time of this _ critical point. may i ask whether at the time of this e-mail _ critical point. may i ask whether at the time of this e-mail exchange, | the time of this e—mail exchange, you were — the time of this e—mail exchange, you were familiar with an article that the — you were familiar with an article that the inquiry has seen which was written. _ that the inquiry has seen which was written. are — that the inquiry has seen which was written, are others, about infection control, _ written, are others, about infection control, in— written, are others, about infection control, in particular about influenza in care home facilities. | influenza in care home facilities. [ was influenza in care home facilities. was not influenza in care home facilities. i was not aware at that time, that is a 2017 _ was not aware at that time, that is a 2017 paper. _ was not aware at that time, that is a 2017 paper. that _ was not aware at that time, that is a 2017 paper, that when _ was not aware at that time, that is a 2017 paper, that when you - was not aware at that time, that is a 2017 paper, that when you are i a 2017 paper, that when you are referring — a 2017 paper, that when you are referring to. _ a 2017 paper, that when you are referring to, and _ a 2017 paper, that when you are referring to, and it _ a 2017 paper, that when you are referring to, and it is _ a 2017 paper, that when you are referring to, and it is perfectly. referring to, and it is perfectly sensible _ referring to, and it is perfectly sensible. there _ referring to, and it is perfectly sensible. there is— referring to, and it is perfectly sensible. there is nothing - referring to, and it is perfectly sensible. there is nothing in. referring to, and it is perfectly- sensible. there is nothing in that, and i_ sensible. there is nothing in that, and i think— sensible. there is nothing in that, and i thinkwhy— sensible. there is nothing in that, and i think why when _ sensible. there is nothing in that, and i think why when we - sensible. there is nothing in that, and i think why when we get - sensible. there is nothing in that, and i think why when we get to i and i think why when we get to lessons — and i think why when we get to lessons learned, _ and i think why when we get to lessons learned, there - and i think why when we get to lessons learned, there is- and i think why when we get to . lessons learned, there is nothing and i think why when we get to - lessons learned, there is nothing in that paper. — lessons learned, there is nothing in that paper. it— lessons learned, there is nothing in that paper. it is— lessons learned, there is nothing in that paper. it is a _ lessons learned, there is nothing in that paper, it is a very— lessons learned, there is nothing in that paper, it is a very erudite - that paper, it is a very erudite paper. — that paper, it is a very erudite paper, but there is _ that paper, it is a very erudite paper, but there is nothing i that paper, it is a very erudite paper, but there is nothing in| that paper, it is a very erudite. paper, but there is nothing in it that would _ paper, but there is nothing in it that would surprise _ paper, but there is nothing in it that would surprise any- paper, but there is nothing in it. that would surprise any practising public— that would surprise any practising public health _ that would surprise any practising public health physician, _ that would surprise any practising public health physician, either- that would surprise any practisingi public health physician, either this year. _ public health physician, either this year. in _ public health physician, either this year. in 2017. _ public health physician, either this year. in 2017. or— public health physician, either this year, in 2017, or in— public health physician, either this year, in 2017, or in previous - public health physician, either this| year, in 2017, or in previous years. ithink— year, in 2017, or in previous years. i think that — year, in 2017, or in previous years. i think that is — year, in 2017, or in previous years. i think that is a — year, in 2017, or in previous years. i think that is a really _ year, in 2017, or in previous years. i think that is a really critical - i think that is a really critical point — i think that is a really critical point for— i think that is a really critical point for lessons _ i think that is a really critical point for lessons going - i think that is a really critical. point for lessons going forward. i think that is a really critical - point for lessons going forward. he point for lessons going forward. hrs: talks point for lessons going forward. talks about the risk of... the adjective _ talks about the risk of... the adjective used was explosive outbreaks of influenza in care homes. — outbreaks of influenza in care homes, for all the reasons which you say you _ homes, for all the reasons which you say you were — homes, for all the reasons which you say you were familiar with. and homes, for all the reasons which you say you were familiar with.— say you were familiar with. and that does happen — say you were familiar with. and that does happen every _ say you were familiar with. and that does happen every winter _ say you were familiar with. and that does happen every winter now - say you were familiar with. and that does happen every winter now with | does happen every winter now with influenza. — does happen every winter now with influenza. and _ does happen every winter now with influenza, and that _ does happen every winter now with influenza, and that is— does happen every winter now with influenza, and that is why - does happen every winter now with influenza, and that is why there - does happen every winter now with| influenza, and that is why there are particular— influenza, and that is why there are particular plans _ influenza, and that is why there are particular plans for— influenza, and that is why there are particular plans for care _ influenza, and that is why there are particular plans for care homes. - influenza, and that is why there are | particular plans for care homes. but hel us particular plans for care homes. help us with this, professor. it might— help us with this, professor. it might be — help us with this, professor. it might be this isjust an e—mail between — might be this isjust an e—mail between professionals and the risks were understood, but for people from looking _ were understood, but for people from looking at _ were understood, but for people from looking at this fresh, there seems to be _ looking at this fresh, there seems to be a _ looking at this fresh, there seems to be a degree of equanimity about discharging large numbers of covid-19 _ discharging large numbers of covid—19 patients into that very vulnerable environment where, as you say, vulnerable environment where, as you say. those _ vulnerable environment where, as you say, those risks were understood. if say, those risks were understood. if i may, say, those risks were understood. i may, ithink say, those risks were understood. if i may, i think that is an interpretation, - i may, i think that is an interpretation, because i may, i think that is an. interpretation, because i i may, i think that is an - interpretation, because i start i may, i think that is an _ interpretation, because i start that e-mail_ interpretation, because i start that e-mail with. — interpretation, because i start that e—mailwith, the _ interpretation, because i start that e—mail with, the prospect- interpretation, because i start that e—mail with, the prospect is- interpretation, because i start that e—mail with, the prospect is one . e—mail with, the prospect is one none _ e—mail with, the prospect is one none of— e—mail with, the prospect is one none of us — e—mail with, the prospect is one none of us would _ e—mail with, the prospect is one none of us would wish _ e—mail with, the prospect is one none of us would wish to - e—mail with, the prospect is one none of us would wish to plan i e—mail with, the prospect is one i none of us would wish to plan for, this is— none of us would wish to plan for, this is a _ none of us would wish to plan for, this is a very— none of us would wish to plan for, this is a very high _ none of us would wish to plan for, this is a very high level— none of us would wish to plan for, this is a very high level picture - none of us would wish to plan for, this is a very high level picture to| this is a very high level picture to reinforce — this is a very high level picture to reinforce the _ this is a very high level picture to reinforce the position _ this is a very high level picture to reinforce the position that - this is a very high level picture to reinforce the position that the . reinforce the position that the country— reinforce the position that the country was _ reinforce the position that the country was in _ reinforce the position that the country was in at _ reinforce the position that the country was in at that - reinforce the position that the l country was in at that weekend, reinforce the position that the - country was in at that weekend, and ithink— country was in at that weekend, and i think we _ country was in at that weekend, and i think we have _ country was in at that weekend, and i think we have heard _ country was in at that weekend, and i think we have heard that _ country was in at that weekend, and i think we have heard that in - country was in at that weekend, and i think we have heard that in other. i think we have heard that in other places _ i think we have heard that in other places if— i think we have heard that in other places. if people _ i think we have heard that in other places. if people were _ i think we have heard that in other places. if people were not - i think we have heard that in other| places. if people were not thinking through— places. if people were not thinking through what — places. if people were not thinking through what likelihood _ places. if people were not thinking through what likelihood was - places. if people were not thinking through what likelihood was in - places. if people were not thinking through what likelihood was in the | through what likelihood was in the rise in— through what likelihood was in the rise in number— through what likelihood was in the rise in number of— through what likelihood was in the rise in number of cases, _ through what likelihood was in the rise in number of cases, as- through what likelihood was in the rise in number of cases, as we - through what likelihood was in the i rise in number of cases, as we have heard. _ rise in number of cases, as we have heard. i_ rise in number of cases, as we have heard. idon't— rise in number of cases, as we have heard, i don't think _ rise in number of cases, as we have heard, i don't think we _ rise in number of cases, as we have heard, i don't think we have - heard, i don't think we have sensible _ heard, i don't think we have sensible conversations - heard, i don't think we have| sensible conversations about managing _ sensible conversations about managing risks. _ sensible conversations about managing risks, and - sensible conversations about managing risks, and this- sensible conversations about managing risks, and this is. sensible conversations about l managing risks, and this is not sensible conversations about - managing risks, and this is not a policy— managing risks, and this is not a policy at — managing risks, and this is not a policy at all. _ managing risks, and this is not a policy at all, this _ managing risks, and this is not a policy at all, this is _ managing risks, and this is not a policy at all, this is a _ managing risks, and this is not a policy at all, this is a statementi policy at all, this is a statement of, policy at all, this is a statement of. if— policy at all, this is a statement of. if you — policy at all, this is a statement of. if you have _ policy at all, this is a statement of, if you have a _ policy at all, this is a statement of, if you have a pandemic- policy at all, this is a statement of, if you have a pandemic in. policy at all, this is a statement of, if you have a pandemic in ai of, if you have a pandemic in a country. — of, if you have a pandemic in a country. how— of, if you have a pandemic in a country, how on _ of, if you have a pandemic in a country, how on earth - of, if you have a pandemic in a country, how on earth are - of, if you have a pandemic in a country, how on earth are you| of, if you have a pandemic in a - country, how on earth are you going to manage _ country, how on earth are you going to manage that— country, how on earth are you going to manage that exponential - country, how on earth are you going to manage that exponential rise - country, how on earth are you going to manage that exponential rise in l to manage that exponential rise in cases? _ to manage that exponential rise in cases? if— to manage that exponential rise in cases? , ., . to manage that exponential rise in cases? ., . ., , ., cases? if you are certainly in a situation _ cases? if you are certainly in a situation where, _ cases? if you are certainly in a situation where, as _ cases? if you are certainly in a situation where, as you - cases? if you are certainly in a situation where, as you say, i cases? if you are certainly in a situation where, as you say, a | situation where, as you say, a highly— situation where, as you say, a highly undesirable situation, way of necessity. — highly undesirable situation, way of necessity, you are finding yourself discharging covid patients into this very vulnerable environment, then as was said. _ very vulnerable environment, then as was said, strict infection control is obviously important. would it be fair to— is obviously important. would it be fair to say— is obviously important. would it be fair to say that it would therefore be necessary to make sure that care homes _ be necessary to make sure that care homes had — be necessary to make sure that care homes had proper guidance and, for that matter, may be a mandatory regulation — that matter, may be a mandatory regulation for the clear steps they should _ regulation for the clear steps they should take, when they are receiving into their— should take, when they are receiving into their care homes infectious patients? — into their care homes infectious patients? we into their care homes infectious atients? ~ . ., into their care homes infectious atients? ~ ., ., patients? we might come onto the mandatory regulation. _ patients? we might come onto the mandatory regulation. i— patients? we might come onto the mandatory regulation. i think - patients? we might come onto the mandatory regulation. i think the l mandatory regulation. i think the issue _ mandatory regulation. i think the issue here — mandatory regulation. i think the issue here is. _ mandatory regulation. i think the issue here is, as— mandatory regulation. i think the issue here is, as i— mandatory regulation. i think the issue here is, as i think- mandatory regulation. i think the issue here is, as i think the - issue here is, as i think the professor— issue here is, as i think the professor gave _ issue here is, as i think the professor gave evidence . issue here is, as i think the - professor gave evidence before, this isjust— professor gave evidence before, this is just trying — professor gave evidence before, this is just trying to — professor gave evidence before, this is just trying to set _ professor gave evidence before, this is just trying to set out, _ professor gave evidence before, this is just trying to set out, this - professor gave evidence before, this isjust trying to set out, this is- isjust trying to set out, this is the top — isjust trying to set out, this is the top line. _ isjust trying to set out, this is the top line, awful— isjust trying to set out, this is the top line, awful prospect i isjust trying to set out, this is the top line, awful prospect of isjust trying to set out, this is- the top line, awful prospect of what could _ the top line, awful prospect of what could happen. — the top line, awful prospect of what could happen. but _ the top line, awful prospect of what could happen, but the _ the top line, awful prospect of what could happen, but the reality- the top line, awful prospect of what could happen, but the reality is, - could happen, but the reality is, and i_ could happen, but the reality is, and i think— could happen, but the reality is, and i think the _ could happen, but the reality is, and i think the professor- could happen, but the reality is, and i think the professor noted, | and i think the professor noted, that any— and i think the professor noted, that any person _ and i think the professor noted, that any person who _ and i think the professor noted, that any person who is - and i think the professor noted, l that any person who is discharged into a _ that any person who is discharged into a care — that any person who is discharged into a care home, _ that any person who is discharged into a care home, whether- that any person who is discharged into a care home, whether they. that any person who is discharged i into a care home, whether they are positive _ into a care home, whether they are positive or— into a care home, whether they are positive or not. _ into a care home, whether they are positive or not, whether— into a care home, whether they are positive or not, whether they - into a care home, whether they are positive or not, whether they have| positive or not, whether they have had a _ positive or not, whether they have had a test — positive or not, whether they have had a test or— positive or not, whether they have had a test or not, _ positive or not, whether they have had a test or not, it _ positive or not, whether they have had a test or not, it is _ positive or not, whether they have had a test or not, it is actually - had a test or not, it is actually the infection— had a test or not, it is actually the infection prevention- had a test or not, it is actually the infection prevention and l had a test or not, it is actually - the infection prevention and control measures— the infection prevention and control measures which— the infection prevention and control measures which are _ the infection prevention and control measures which are the _ the infection prevention and control measures which are the critical - measures which are the critical component _ measures which are the critical component over— measures which are the critical component over an _ measures which are the critical component over an incubationi measures which are the critical - component over an incubation period, so i component over an incubation period, so i agree _ component over an incubation period, so i agree with — component over an incubation period, so i agree with you _ component over an incubation period, so i agree with you in— component over an incubation period, so i agree with you in principle. - so i agree with you in principle. sometimes _ so i agree with you in principle. sometimes we _ so i agree with you in principle. sometimes we get _ so i agree with you in principle. sometimes we get hung - so i agree with you in principle. sometimes we get hung up - so i agree with you in principle. sometimes we get hung up oni so i agree with you in principle. i sometimes we get hung up on the test. _ sometimes we get hung up on the test. whereas— sometimes we get hung up on the test, whereas it _ sometimes we get hung up on the test, whereas it is _ sometimes we get hung up on the test, whereas it is the _ sometimes we get hung up on the test, whereas it is the ipc, - sometimes we get hung up on the test, whereas it is the ipc, so - sometimes we get hung up on the test, whereas it is the ipc, so i. test, whereas it is the ipc, so i agree _ test, whereas it is the ipc, so i agree with _ test, whereas it is the ipc, so i agree with you _ test, whereas it is the ipc, so i agree with you in _ test, whereas it is the ipc, so i agree with you in principle, - test, whereas it is the ipc, so i agree with you in principle, the mandatory— agree with you in principle, the mandatory bit _ agree with you in principle, the mandatory bit we _ agree with you in principle, the mandatory bit we might - agree with you in principle, the mandatory bit we might come. agree with you in principle, the - mandatory bit we might come onto. or mandatory bit we might come onto. riinr maybe mandatory bit we might come onto. maybe in another module. let's look briefly— maybe in another module. let's look briefly at— maybe in another module. let's look briefly at the care home guidance that was— briefly at the care home guidance that was in force at the time and there _ that was in force at the time and there were — that was in force at the time and there were different sets of guidance being published at around this time. _ guidance being published at around this time, but if we can go to 300278. _ this time, but if we can go to 300278, we see that, just below the title, covid—19, it was published on the 13th _ title, covid—19, it was published on the 13th of— title, covid—19, it was published on the 13th of march, so only three days— the 13th of march, so only three days before the e—mail we have just been _ days before the e—mail we have just been looking at, and if we can go on, been looking at, and if we can go on. please. — been looking at, and if we can go on, please, to page four of that document... we see at the top there, the title. _ document... we see at the top there, the title. if— document... we see at the top there, the title. if a — document... we see at the top there, the title, if a resident as symptoms of covid-i9~ — the title, if a resident as symptoms of covid—19. just before we look at the paragraph better, one might have thought. _ the paragraph better, one might have thought, judging by the e—mail and the understanding that of necessity, care homes were due to receive these possibly— care homes were due to receive these possibly large numbers of infectious covid-19 _ possibly large numbers of infectious covid—19 patients, that they would be told _ covid—19 patients, that they would be told that this was coming and that. _ be told that this was coming and that. as — be told that this was coming and that, as miss rampton said, very strict _ that, as miss rampton said, very strict control measures would be needed — strict control measures would be needed in — strict control measures would be needed. in fact, well, you tell us whether— needed. in fact, well, you tell us whether what we see here is consistent with that, but the messages, care homes are not expected — messages, care homes are not expected to have dedicated isolation facilities _ expected to have dedicated isolation facilities for people living in the home _ facilities for people living in the home but— facilities for people living in the home but they should implement isolation — home but they should implement isolation precautions when someone in the _ isolation precautions when someone in the home displays in the same way as if that _ in the home displays in the same way as if that individual had influenza. if as if that individual had influenza. if isolation — as if that individual had influenza. if isolation is needed, a resident's own room — if isolation is needed, a resident's own room can be used. ideally the room _ own room can be used. ideally the room should be a single bedroom with ensuite _ room should be a single bedroom with ensuite facilities. looking at this now. _ ensuite facilities. looking at this now. do— ensuite facilities. looking at this now, do you think that type of guidance _ now, do you think that type of guidance was appropriate to circumstances where it was understood that care homes would be receiving _ understood that care homes would be receiving possibly large numbers of infectious _ receiving possibly large numbers of infectious covid patients? i receiving possibly large numbers of infectious covid patients?— infectious covid patients? i think we 'ust infectious covid patients? i think we just need _ infectious covid patients? i think we just need to _ infectious covid patients? i think we just need to draw _ infectious covid patients? i think we just need to draw a _ infectious covid patients? i think i we just need to draw a distinction. my message — we just need to draw a distinction. my message on— we just need to draw a distinction. my message on the _ we just need to draw a distinction. my message on the 16th _ we just need to draw a distinction. my message on the 16th was, - we just need to draw a distinction. my message on the 16th was, as l we just need to draw a distinction. . my message on the 16th was, as you noted. _ my message on the 16th was, as you noted. numbers— my message on the 16th was, as you noted, numbers go— my message on the 16th was, as you noted, numbers go up. _ my message on the 16th was, as you noted, numbers go up. this- my message on the 16th was, as you noted, numbers go up. this was- my message on the 16th was, as youl noted, numbers go up. this wasjust, look ahead. _ noted, numbers go up. this wasjust, look ahead, this _ noted, numbers go up. this wasjust, look ahead, this is _ noted, numbers go up. this wasjust, look ahead, this is what _ noted, numbers go up. this wasjust, look ahead, this is what will - noted, numbers go up. this wasjust, look ahead, this is what will happen l look ahead, this is what will happen in due _ look ahead, this is what will happen in due course — look ahead, this is what will happen in due course. it _ look ahead, this is what will happen in due course. it does _ look ahead, this is what will happen in due course. it does not _ look ahead, this is what will happen in due course. it does not give - look ahead, this is what will happen in due course. it does not give a - in due course. it does not give a timeframe~ _ in due course. it does not give a timeframe~ 0n— in due course. it does not give a timeframe. on this _ in due course. it does not give a timeframe. on this one, - in due course. it does not give a timeframe. on this one, i- in due course. it does not give a timeframe. on this one, i think| in due course. it does not give a i timeframe. on this one, i think the first case _ timeframe. on this one, i think the first case in— timeframe. on this one, i think the first case in a— timeframe. on this one, i think the first case in a care _ timeframe. on this one, i think the first case in a care home _ timeframe. on this one, i think the first case in a care home was- timeframe. on this one, i think the | first case in a care home was around the tenth. _ first case in a care home was around the tenth. and— first case in a care home was around the tenth. and i_ first case in a care home was around the tenth, and i think— first case in a care home was around the tenth, and i think this— first case in a care home was around the tenth, and i think this guidancei the tenth, and i think this guidance had been _ the tenth, and i think this guidance had been held _ the tenth, and i think this guidance had been held up— the tenth, and i think this guidance had been held up from _ the tenth, and i think this guidance had been held up from the - the tenth, and i think this guidancei had been held up from the seventh. the tenth, and i think this guidance . had been held up from the seventh. i am not _ had been held up from the seventh. i am not sure — had been held up from the seventh. i am not sure i— had been held up from the seventh. i am not sure i have _ had been held up from the seventh. i am not sure i have signed _ had been held up from the seventh. i am not sure i have signed it... - had been held up from the seventh. i am not sure i have signed it... i- am not sure i have signed it... i did comment _ am not sure i have signed it... i did comment on _ am not sure i have signed it... i did comment on a _ am not sure i have signed it... i did comment on a lot— am not sure i have signed it... i did comment on a lot of- am not sure i have signed it... i. did comment on a lot of guidance am not sure i have signed it... i- did comment on a lot of guidance but i did comment on a lot of guidance but i think. _ did comment on a lot of guidance but i think. i_ did comment on a lot of guidance but i think. i would — did comment on a lot of guidance but i think, i would have _ did comment on a lot of guidance but i think, i would have to— did comment on a lot of guidance but i think, i would have to check, - did comment on a lot of guidance but i think, i would have to check, but. i think, i would have to check, but i think, i would have to check, but ithink— i think, i would have to check, but i think it _ i think, i would have to check, but i think it was — i think, i would have to check, but i think it was p — i think, i would have to check, but i think it was p h _ i think, i would have to check, but ithink it was p h e— i think, i would have to check, but i think it was p h e guidance - i think, i would have to check, but i think it was p h e guidance and l i think it was p h e guidance and not when — i think it was p h e guidance and not when that _ i think it was p h e guidance and not when that i— i think it was p h e guidance and not when that i finally— i think it was p h e guidance and not when that i finally signed - i think it was p h e guidance andl not when that i finally signed off. that does— not when that i finally signed off. that does not _ not when that i finally signed off. that does not disrupt _ not when that i finally signed off. that does not disrupt —— - not when that i finally signed off. that does not disrupt —— detracti that does not disrupt —— detract from _ that does not disrupt —— detract from the — that does not disrupt —— detract from the question. _ that does not disrupt —— detract from the question. so _ that does not disrupt —— detract from the question. so i - that does not disrupt —— detract from the question. so i think. that does not disrupt —— detract i from the question. so i think there was a _ from the question. so i think there was a new— from the question. so i think there was a new guidance _ from the question. so i think there was a new guidance coming - from the question. so i think there . was a new guidance coming through, as cases _ was a new guidance coming through, as cases started _ was a new guidance coming through, as cases started to _ was a new guidance coming through, as cases started to rise, _ was a new guidance coming through, as cases started to rise, so _ was a new guidance coming through, as cases started to rise, so i- was a new guidance coming through, as cases started to rise, so i think. as cases started to rise, so i think the first— as cases started to rise, so i think the first case _ as cases started to rise, so i think the first case was _ as cases started to rise, so i think the first case was on _ as cases started to rise, so i think the first case was on the - as cases started to rise, so i think the first case was on the 10th - as cases started to rise, so i think the first case was on the 10th of. the first case was on the 10th of march — the first case was on the 10th of march the _ the first case was on the 10th of march. the critical— the first case was on the 10th of march. the critical thing - the first case was on the 10th of march. the critical thing here, i march. the critical thing here, actually. — march. the critical thing here, actually. is— march. the critical thing here, actually, is the _ march. the critical thing here, actually, is the isolation. - march. the critical thing here, actually, is the isolation. youi actually, is the isolation. you should — actually, is the isolation. you should not— actually, is the isolation. you should not take _ actually, is the isolation. you should not take my— actually, is the isolation. you should not take my e—mail. actually, is the isolation. youj should not take my e—mail as actually, is the isolation. you i should not take my e—mail as to actually, is the isolation. you - should not take my e—mail as to save the nhs _ should not take my e—mail as to save the nhs is _ should not take my e—mail as to save the nhs is certainly— should not take my e—mail as to save the nhs is certainly going _ should not take my e—mail as to save the nhs is certainly going to - the nhs is certainly going to discharge _ the nhs is certainly going to discharge lots _ the nhs is certainly going to discharge lots of _ the nhs is certainly going to discharge lots of covid - the nhs is certainly going to - discharge lots of covid —positive patients — discharge lots of covid —positive patients and _ discharge lots of covid —positive patients and that _ discharge lots of covid —positive patients and that is _ discharge lots of covid —positive patients and that is absolutely l patients and that is absolutely fine. _ patients and that is absolutely fine. what _ patients and that is absolutely fine. what it— patients and that is absolutely fine, what it was _ patients and that is absolutely fine, what it was doing - patients and that is absolutely fine, what it was doing was i patients and that is absolutely - fine, what it was doing was painting a picture _ fine, what it was doing was painting a picture to— fine, what it was doing was painting a picture to the _ fine, what it was doing was painting a picture to the person _ fine, what it was doing was painting a picture to the person contributing | a picture to the person contributing to the _ a picture to the person contributing to the policy— a picture to the person contributing to the policy on— a picture to the person contributing to the policy on the _ a picture to the person contributing to the policy on the official - a picture to the person contributing to the policy on the official site - to the policy on the official site at the — to the policy on the official site at the department _ to the policy on the official site at the department of— to the policy on the official site at the department of health, l to the policy on the official site i at the department of health, and to the policy on the official site - at the department of health, and the isolation _ at the department of health, and the isolation issue, _ at the department of health, and the isolation issue, they— at the department of health, and the isolation issue, they will— at the department of health, and the isolation issue, they will be - at the department of health, and the isolation issue, they will be a - isolation issue, they will be a number— isolation issue, they will be a number you _ isolation issue, they will be a number you may— isolation issue, they will be a number you may come - isolation issue, they will be a number you may come onto, | isolation issue, they will be a - number you may come onto, around isolation issue, they will be a _ number you may come onto, around how you deal— number you may come onto, around how you deal with _ number you may come onto, around how you deal with an— number you may come onto, around how you deal with an outbreak— number you may come onto, around how you deal with an outbreak in _ number you may come onto, around how you deal with an outbreak in a _ number you may come onto, around how you deal with an outbreak in a care - you deal with an outbreak in a care home. _ you deal with an outbreak in a care home. but— you deal with an outbreak in a care home. but this— you deal with an outbreak in a care home, but this is _ you deal with an outbreak in a care home, but this is sitting _ you deal with an outbreak in a care home, but this is sitting on- you deal with an outbreak in a care home, but this is sitting on top- you deal with an outbreak in a care home, but this is sitting on top of, j home, but this is sitting on top of, because _ home, but this is sitting on top of, because the — home, but this is sitting on top of, because the jonathan_ home, but this is sitting on top of, because the jonathan van - home, but this is sitting on top of, because the jonathan van tam - because the jonathan van tam knowledge _ because the jonathan van tam knowledge over— because the jonathan van tam knowledge over many - because the jonathan van tam knowledge over many years, l knowledge over many years, relatively— knowledge over many years, relatively well— known - knowledge over many years, i relatively well— known systems knowledge over many years, - relatively well— known systems of infection — relatively well— known systems of infection prevention _ relatively well— known systems of infection prevention and - relatively well— known systems of infection prevention and control. relatively well— known systems ofi infection prevention and control in care homes— infection prevention and control in care homes where _ infection prevention and control in care homes where it _ infection prevention and control in care homes where it is _ infection prevention and control in care homes where it is well- care homes where it is well exercised. _ care homes where it is well exercised, and _ care homes where it is well exercised, and i— care homes where it is well exercised, and i think- care homes where it is well exercised, and i think thati care homes where it is well. exercised, and i think that is another— exercised, and i think that is another issue. _ exercised, and i think that is another issue.— exercised, and i think that is another issue. exercised, and i think that is anotherissue. ., ., another issue. just looking at that on its own. _ another issue. just looking at that on its own. it _ another issue. just looking at that on its own, it is _ another issue. just looking at that on its own, it is not _ another issue. just looking at that on its own, it is not enough, - another issue. just looking at that on its own, it is not enough, is . another issue. just looking at thatj on its own, it is not enough, is it? to give _ on its own, it is not enough, is it? to give the — on its own, it is not enough, is it? to give the care home at the guidance. _ to give the care home at the guidance, the clarity, the information that they would have needed. — information that they would have needed, facing the type of situation that is— needed, facing the type of situation that is described in your e—mail. | that is described in your e—mail. [ think that is described in your e—mail. think there that is described in your e—mail. i think there was ever guidance that was published _ think there was ever guidance that was published alongside _ think there was ever guidance that was published alongside this, - think there was ever guidance that was published alongside this, as. think there was ever guidance that was published alongside this, as ii was published alongside this, as i remember. — was published alongside this, as i remember, and _ was published alongside this, as i remember, and the _ was published alongside this, as i remember, and the guidance - was published alongside this, as i remember, and the guidance wasj remember, and the guidance was updated _ remember, and the guidance was updated very _ remember, and the guidance was updated very regularly. _ remember, and the guidance was updated very regularly. i- remember, and the guidance was updated very regularly. i do - remember, and the guidance was updated very regularly. i do thinkj updated very regularly. i do think there _ updated very regularly. i do think there was— updated very regularly. i do think there was a — updated very regularly. i do think there was a problem _ updated very regularly. i do think there was a problem in— updated very regularly. i do think there was a problem in the - updated very regularly. i do think there was a problem in the sense updated very regularly. i do think i there was a problem in the sense of ensuring. _ there was a problem in the sense of ensuring. and— there was a problem in the sense of ensuring. and i_ there was a problem in the sense of ensuring, and i think— there was a problem in the sense of ensuring, and i think i _ there was a problem in the sense of ensuring, and i think i flagged - there was a problem in the sense of ensuring, and i think i flagged this i ensuring, and i think i flagged this in my— ensuring, and i think i flagged this in my e-mail— ensuring, and i think i flagged this in my e—mail somewhere, - ensuring, and i think i flagged this in my e—mail somewhere, i- ensuring, and i think i flagged this in my e—mail somewhere, i think. ensuring, and i think i flagged this i in my e—mail somewhere, i think the nhsand— in my e—mail somewhere, i think the nhs and social— in my e—mail somewhere, i think the nhs and social care _ in my e—mail somewhere, i think the nhs and social care should _ in my e—mail somewhere, i think the nhs and social care should be - in my e—mail somewhere, i think the nhs and social care should be seen. nhs and social care should be seen as a total— nhs and social care should be seen as a total continuum. _ nhs and social care should be seen as a total continuum. they - nhs and social care should be seen as a total continuum. they are - nhs and social care should be seen as a total continuum. they are all. as a total continuum. they are all part of— as a total continuum. they are all part of the — as a total continuum. they are all part of the care _ as a total continuum. they are all part of the care system _ as a total continuum. they are all part of the care system and - part of the care system and sometimes _ part of the care system and sometimes one _ part of the care system and sometimes one develops . part of the care system and - sometimes one develops ahead of part of the care system and _ sometimes one develops ahead of the other and _ sometimes one develops ahead of the other and i_ sometimes one develops ahead of the other and i note — sometimes one develops ahead of the other and i note looking _ sometimes one develops ahead of the other and i note looking back- sometimes one develops ahead of the other and i note looking back on - other and i note looking back on these _ other and i note looking back on these you — other and i note looking back on these you can _ other and i note looking back on these you can see _ other and i note looking back on these you can see that - other and i note looking back on these you can see that a - other and i note looking back on these you can see that a piece i other and i note looking back on| these you can see that a piece of nhs guidance _ these you can see that a piece of nhs guidance pops _ these you can see that a piece of nhs guidance pops out, - these you can see that a piece of nhs guidance pops out, and - these you can see that a piece of| nhs guidance pops out, and then somebody— nhs guidance pops out, and then somebody else _ nhs guidance pops out, and then somebody else is _ nhs guidance pops out, and then somebody else is trying - nhs guidance pops out, and then somebody else is trying to - nhs guidance pops out, and then somebody else is trying to wrap i nhs guidance pops out, and then. somebody else is trying to wrap up with it. _ somebody else is trying to wrap up with it. so — somebody else is trying to wrap up with it. so at — somebody else is trying to wrap up with it, so at the _ somebody else is trying to wrap up with it, so at the time, _ somebody else is trying to wrap up with it, so at the time, for- somebody else is trying to wrap up with it, so at the time, for the - with it, so at the time, for the patients— with it, so at the time, for the patients who _ with it, so at the time, for the patients who were _ with it, so at the time, for the patients who were being - with it, so at the time, for the - patients who were being discharged, for the _ patients who were being discharged, for the background _ patients who were being discharged, for the background epidemiology, i patients who were being discharged, for the background epidemiology, it| for the background epidemiology, it is probably— for the background epidemiology, it is probably reasonable, _ for the background epidemiology, it is probably reasonable, but- for the background epidemiology, it is probably reasonable, but that - is probably reasonable, but that progressed. _ is probably reasonable, but that progressed. the _ is probably reasonable, but that progressed, the guidance - is probably reasonable, but that - progressed, the guidance progressed as we _ progressed, the guidance progressed as we went _ progressed, the guidance progressed as we went forward. _ progressed, the guidance progressed as we went forward. i— progressed, the guidance progressed as we went forward. i am _ progressed, the guidance progressed as we went forward. i am really- progressed, the guidance progressed as we went forward. i am really keen| as we went forward. i am really keen to emphasise. — as we went forward. i am really keen to emphasise. my— as we went forward. i am really keen to emphasise, my e—mail_ as we went forward. i am really keen to emphasise, my e—mail was - as we went forward. i am really keen to emphasise, my e—mail was a - as we went forward. i am really keen to emphasise, my e—mail was a high| to emphasise, my e—mail was a high level view— to emphasise, my e—mail was a high level view so — to emphasise, my e—mail was a high level view so people _ to emphasise, my e—mail was a high level view so people were _ to emphasise, my e—mail was a high level view so people were aware - to emphasise, my e—mail was a high level view so people were aware of. level view so people were aware of what was _ level view so people were aware of what was coming _ level view so people were aware of what was coming over— level view so people were aware of what was coming over the - level view so people were aware of what was coming over the hill- level view so people were aware of what was coming over the hill but. what was coming over the hill but was still— what was coming over the hill but was still a — what was coming over the hill but was still a little _ what was coming over the hill but was still a little way _ what was coming over the hill but was still a little way away. - what was coming over the hill but was still a little way away. lett- what was coming over the hill but was still a little way away. let me ask ou was still a little way away. let me ask you about _ was still a little way away. let me ask you about a _ was still a little way away. let me ask you about a separate - was still a little way away. let me ask you about a separate but - was still a little way away. let me i ask you about a separate but related issu3. _ ask you about a separate but related issue. and _ ask you about a separate but related issue, and for this purpose let's briefly— issue, and for this purpose let's briefly go— issue, and for this purpose let's briefly go to professor van tam's paper~ _ briefly go to professor van tam's paper. 269388, please. and it is page _ paper. 269388, please. and it is page three. and we can see, if we look at the very— and we can see, if we look at the very bottom of the left—hand column and then— very bottom of the left—hand column and then read over to the top of the right-hand — and then read over to the top of the right—hand column, the paper draws attention— right—hand column, the paper draws attention to — right—hand column, the paper draws attention to a very particular problem _ attention to a very particular problem in care homes, which again i understand _ problem in care homes, which again i understand from your earlier answer was equally— understand from your earlier answer was equally well known, it says although — was equally well known, it says although a roll of asymptomatic people — although a roll of asymptomatic people and those with only mild symptoms in spreading influence is uncertain. — symptoms in spreading influence is uncertain, health—care workers often continue _ uncertain, health—care workers often continue to— uncertain, health—care workers often continue to work despite having symptoms. they may act as a source of infection _ symptoms. they may act as a source of infection to those in their care. there _ of infection to those in their care. there is— of infection to those in their care. there is a — of infection to those in their care. there is a reference to a swedish study. _ there is a reference to a swedish study, where nursing home are shown to be the _ study, where nursing home are shown to be the occupational risk group, significantly greatest risk of continuing to work, despite feeling in light— continuing to work, despite feeling in light of— continuing to work, despite feeling in light of day state of health they should _ in light of day state of health they should have taken sick leave. in reality. — should have taken sick leave. in reality. the _ should have taken sick leave. in reality, the employment status of many _ reality, the employment status of many staff is often precarious, taking — many staff is often precarious, taking and paid sick leave may take adverse _ taking and paid sick leave may take adverse economic consequences. you adverse economic consequences. you are adverse economic consequences. you are nodding. _ adverse economic consequences. you are nodding, professor. was this another— are nodding, professor. was this another equally well— known aspect of the health— another equally well— known aspect of the health care risks associated with care — the health care risks associated with care homes, nursing homes and the like? _ with care homes, nursing homes and the like? . with care homes, nursing homes and the like? , , ., ., ., .,~ the like? yes. i shall have to make sure i the like? yes. i shall have to make sure i stick — the like? yes. i shall have to make sure i stick to _ the like? yes. i shall have to make sure i stick to my... _ the like? yes. i shall have to make sure i stick to my... the _ the like? yes. i shall have to make sure i stick to my... the social- sure i stick to my... the social care _ sure i stick to my... the social care sector. _ sure i stick to my... the social care sector. as— sure i stick to my... the social care sector, as i— sure i stick to my... the social care sector, as i said, - sure i stick to my... the social care sector, as i said, i- sure i stick to my... the social care sector, as i said, i think, i sure i stick to my... the social. care sector, as i said, i think, is under— care sector, as i said, i think, is under recognised. _ care sector, as i said, i think, is under recognised. there - care sector, as i said, i think, is under recognised. there are - care sector, as i said, i think, is. under recognised. there are more people _ under recognised. there are more people employed _ under recognised. there are more people employed in— under recognised. there are more people employed in it... - under recognised. there are more people employed in it... sorry, i under recognised. there are more i people employed in it... sorry, more people _ people employed in it... sorry, more people employed _ people employed in it... sorry, more people employed than _ people employed in it... sorry, more people employed than in— people employed in it... sorry, more people employed than in the - people employed in it... sorry, more people employed than in the health i people employed than in the health service. _ people employed than in the health service. is— people employed than in the health service. is my— people employed than in the health service, is my understanding. - people employed than in the health i service, is my understanding. around 25% of— service, is my understanding. around 25% of them. — service, is my understanding. around 25% ofthem. i— service, is my understanding. around 25% of them, i think, _ service, is my understanding. around 25% of them, i think, are _ service, is my understanding. around 25% of them, i think, are on - 25% of them, i think, are on zero-hours— 25% of them, i think, are on zero—hours contract. - 25% of them, i think, are on zero—hours contract. manyi 25% of them, i think, are oni zero—hours contract. many of 25% of them, i think, are on - zero—hours contract. many of them are women — zero-hours contract. many of them are women-— zero-hours contract. many of them are women. could i ask you to try to seak a are women. could i ask you to try to speak a little — are women. could i ask you to try to speak a little more _ are women. could i ask you to try to speak a little more slowly. - are women. could i ask you to try to speak a little more slowly. you - are women. could i ask you to try to speak a little more slowly. you can. speak a little more slowly. you can tell that _ speak a little more slowly. you can tell that i _ speak a little more slowly. you can tell that i care passionately about this. tell that i care passionately about this and — tell that i care passionately about this. and therefore, when you want to manage — this. and therefore, when you want to manage situations of infection control. — to manage situations of infection control. it — to manage situations of infection control, it is really important, similar— control, it is really important, similar actually in some other industries, other settings, like food _ industries, other settings, like food factories. | industries, other settings, like food factories.— industries, other settings, like food factories. . ., , , food factories. i am not suggesting these are the _ food factories. i am not suggesting these are the same, _ food factories. i am not suggesting these are the same, but _ food factories. i am not suggesting these are the same, but the - food factories. i am not suggesting these are the same, but the same| these are the same, but the same issue _ these are the same, but the same issue of— these are the same, but the same issue of people _ these are the same, but the same issue of people working _ these are the same, but the same issue of people working in - these are the same, but the same issue of people working in pooreri issue of people working in poorer circumstances _ issue of people working in poorer circumstances who _ issue of people working in poorer circumstances who cannot - issue of people working in poorer circumstances who cannot afford | issue of people working in poorer. circumstances who cannot afford to take the _ circumstances who cannot afford to take the time — circumstances who cannot afford to take the time away— circumstances who cannot afford to take the time away from _ circumstances who cannot afford to take the time away from it - circumstances who cannot afford to take the time away from it they- take the time away from it they work. _ take the time away from it they work. and — take the time away from it they work, and often _ take the time away from it they work, and often it— take the time away from it they work, and often it is— take the time away from it they. work, and often it is compounded because _ work, and often it is compounded because both _ work, and often it is compounded because both halves _ work, and often it is compounded because both halves of— work, and often it is compounded because both halves of the - work, and often it is compounded. because both halves of the couple, for example. — because both halves of the couple, for example, will— because both halves of the couple, for example, will not _ because both halves of the couple, for example, will not be _ because both halves of the couple, for example, will not be able - because both halves of the couple, for example, will not be able to, l for example, will not be able to, and if— for example, will not be able to, and if they— for example, will not be able to, and if they have _ for example, will not be able to, and if they have children - for example, will not be able to, and if they have children at - for example, will not be able to, i and if they have children at home, they are _ and if they have children at home, they are not — and if they have children at home, they are not receiving _ and if they have children at home, they are not receiving free - and if they have children at home, they are not receiving free meals, | they are not receiving free meals, they are not receiving free meals, they cannot — they are not receiving free meals, they cannot do _ they are not receiving free meals, they cannot do that _ they are not receiving free meals, they cannot do that either. - they are not receiving free meals, they cannot do that either. therel they are not receiving free meals, i they cannot do that either. there is a whole _ they cannot do that either. there is a whole sequence _ they cannot do that either. there is a whole sequence of— they cannot do that either. there is a whole sequence of social - they cannot do that either. there is a whole sequence of social events i a whole sequence of social events which. _ a whole sequence of social events which. for — a whole sequence of social events which. for very— a whole sequence of social events which, for very understandable i which, for very understandable reasons — which, for very understandable reasons in— which, for very understandable reasons in those _ which, for very understandable reasons in those families, - which, for very understandable i reasons in those families, would predicate — reasons in those families, would predicate to _ reasons in those families, would predicate to people _ reasons in those families, would predicate to people either- predicate to people either continuing _ predicate to people either continuing to— predicate to people either continuing to work, - predicate to people either continuing to work, which| predicate to people either. continuing to work, which of predicate to people either- continuing to work, which of course is a risk— continuing to work, which of course is a risk for— continuing to work, which of course is a risk for those _ continuing to work, which of course is a risk for those they— continuing to work, which of course is a risk for those they are - continuing to work, which of course is a risk for those they are caring, i is a risk for those they are caring, or for— is a risk for those they are caring, or for things — is a risk for those they are caring, or for things like _ is a risk for those they are caring, or for things like not _ is a risk for those they are caring, or for things like not staying - is a risk for those they are caring, or for things like not staying in. or for things like not staying in confinement _ or for things like not staying in confinement or— or for things like not staying in confinement or isolation. - or for things like not staying in confinement or isolation. 50 l or for things like not staying in confinement or isolation. so the roblem confinement or isolation. so the problem is. _ confinement or isolation. so the problem is, and _ confinement or isolation. so the problem is, and i _ confinement or isolation. so the problem is, and i think- confinement or isolation. so the problem is, and i think on - confinement or isolation. so the problem is, and i think on your. problem is, and i think on your evidence. _ problem is, and i think on your evidence, was understood at the time _ evidence, was understood at the time if— evidence, was understood at the time if we — evidence, was understood at the time. if we focus on that e—mail of yours _ time. if we focus on that e—mail of yours and — time. if we focus on that e—mail of yours and simply using it as a way into this _ yours and simply using it as a way into this discussion, i understand it was— into this discussion, i understand it was an — into this discussion, i understand it was an internal e—mail, but with the prospect of discharging into care homes infectious patients, of course _ care homes infectious patients, of course one — care homes infectious patients, of course one risk is that they themselves might spread the infection to other patients. we have talked _ infection to other patients. we have talked about that. but there was 'ust talked about that. but there was just as _ talked about that. but there was just as much a risk that health care workers _ just as much a risk that health care workers would come into contact with them _ workers would come into contact with them and _ workers would come into contact with them and then the workers would go on to— them and then the workers would go on to spread the infection either within— on to spread the infection either within the — on to spread the infection either within the home or indeed in another care home _ within the home or indeed in another care home. do you think that side of the risk— care home. do you think that side of the risk was — care home. do you think that side of the risk was officially understood and sufficiently accommodated in 2020? _ ca re care workers are often critical in people's lives, that one person who is standing by them, and there are not many of them around, and there comes a point, and we did see this for a few occasions in the pandemic, where the workforce capacity