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down the covid secure route. yes. last point in this section is one of you looking ahead steps and we know that we shifted in the rolls over this period of time. you say this. don't go for simple, rigid rules if it is likely you are going to have to bury them or have limited ability or intention to enforce them. that is correct — or intention to enforce them. that is correct 50 _ or intention to enforce them. that is correct. so it _ or intention to enforce them. that is correct. so it builds _ or intention to enforce them. that is correct. so it builds on the earlier— is correct. so it builds on the earlier point about rules. so the worse _ earlier point about rules. so the worse thing to do is to say that this is— worse thing to do is to say that this is the _ worse thing to do is to say that this is the rule and then you can see att— this is the rule and then you can see all around that it is being broken — see all around that it is being broken i_ see all around that it is being broken. i hesitate to say this in a room _ broken. i hesitate to say this in a room of— broken. i hesitate to say this in a room of lawyers. but the classic example — room of lawyers. but the classic example is _ room of lawyers. but the classic example is if you see a wall and its is no _ example is if you see a wall and its is no batt— example is if you see a wall and its is no ball games, the first thing you might — is no ball games, the first thing you might think is, well, that is a pretty— you might think is, well, that is a pretty good wall. and as soon as you start to _ pretty good wall. and as soon as you start to break the rule, you essentially become a rule breaker. so you _ essentially become a rule breaker. so you really want to design rules that are _ so you really want to design rules that are generally followed. you want _ that are generally followed. you want to — that are generally followed. you want to enforce egregious breaches, but you _ want to enforce egregious breaches, but you don't want to inadvertently signat— but you don't want to inadvertently signal that— but you don't want to inadvertently signal that lots of people are breaking the rule because it will actually— breaking the rule because it will actually make it even more likely that others will follow suit. thank ou. a lot that others will follow suit. thank you a lot of _ that others will follow suit. thank you. a lot of information - that others will follow suit. thank you. a lot of information and - that others will follow suit. thank you. a lot of information and we | that others will follow suit. thank i you. a lot of information and we are dealing with a high level, it is more detailed in a statement and i am conscious of not wanting to do justice to these important principles. let's move on to the final area, which is lessons learned, covid missteps. injuly 2020, you set out a number of opinions and criticisms on the initial response to the pandemic. from a behavioural perspective, in a document entitled institutional lessons from covid. you explained that was a hard copy letter initially sent in july to helen initially sent injuly to helen macnamara and alex chilton in the cabinet office. and later, is it the case you asked for that copy of the document again and you updated it and in september 2020? let's look at that. and what a summarise can be seenin that. and what a summarise can be seen in the top right—hand corner. and it runs to 13 pages approximately, it is a significant piece of work itself. it informs your evidence and warrants to be read and considered in its entirety, which it will be and has been on this side so i will not go through it sequentially. ijust this side so i will not go through it sequentially. i just want to draw out two significant points, which is this. you describe the early misstep and we can see it in paragraph one, overconfidence and anchoring on our experts's medical community led to a presumption that covid would be like a flu—like wave, blanking it to the pursuit of near suppression as a viable option. our decision—making was vulnerable to systemic error. and if we could go to page two, please. this is your executive summary and you expand upon this. just going to find the right reference, it is the second last paragraph and you say how this was built into, just pausing for a second. next, thank you very much. it is the third paragraph, forgive me. you say this presumption was built into the contained delay and mitigate research strategy and it underpins the early chris whitty position on test and trace and the patrick vallance view on herd immunity, brackets, later airbrushed, close it is. it would be remiss to pick up on that now, what you mean by the last remark, herd immunity, laterairbrushed? you mean by the last remark, herd immunity, later airbrushed? that communication injuly 2020.?011 immunity, later airbrushed? that communication in july 2020. you will be caettin communication in july 2020. you will be getting evidence _ communication in july 2020. you will be getting evidence from _ communication in july 2020. you will be getting evidence from many - be getting evidence from many people — be getting evidence from many people. patrick has been pretty clear— people. patrick has been pretty clear on— people. patrick has been pretty clear on it _ people. patrick has been pretty clear on it. i think within government communications, there was defihitety_ government communications, there was defihitety a _ government communications, there was definitely a deemphasis on the head immunity— definitely a deemphasis on the head immunity language and the way in which _ immunity language and the way in which the — immunity language and the way in which the early strategy i think was expressed. others had argued there was continuity, but it did feel that was continuity, but it did feel that was a _ was continuity, but it did feel that was a significant recalibration or description of it —— the herd immunity _ description of it -- the herd immunity-— description of it -- the herd immuni . �* . . description of it -- the herd immuni . . . . , , . immunity. after the media and public backlash around _ immunity. after the media and public backlash around the _ immunity. after the media and public backlash around the 13th _ immunity. after the media and public backlash around the 13th and - immunity. after the media and public backlash around the 13th and 14th - immunity. after the media and public backlash around the 13th and 14th of. backlash around the 13th and 14th of march. . �* backlash around the 13th and 14th of march. , ~ . ., , , backlash around the 13th and 14th of march. , r ., ., , , , ., march. yes. and arguably, it is for ou to march. yes. and arguably, it is for you to determine _ march. yes. and arguably, it is for you to determine rather _ march. yes. and arguably, it is for you to determine rather than - march. yes. and arguably, it is for you to determine rather than me, | march. yes. and arguably, it is for i you to determine rather than me, but a recalibration of the policy. i might— a recalibration of the policy. i mightjust say the a recalibration of the policy. i might just say the key point actually— might just say the key point actually was slightly different, a subtle _ actually was slightly different, a subtle one. even now had the benefit of reading _ subtle one. even now had the benefit of reading sir patrick's reflections, he does talk about in his evidence of course, the best thing _ his evidence of course, the best thing to— his evidence of course, the best thing to do— his evidence of course, the best thing to do would have been to have a much _ thing to do would have been to have a much better test and trace system and so _ a much better test and trace system and so on _ a much better test and trace system and so on. but that is actually a part— and so on. but that is actually a part of— and so on. but that is actually a part of sophisticated suppression. that is— part of sophisticated suppression. that is what the south koreans did, that is— that is what the south koreans did, that is what— that is what the south koreans did, that is what singapore did, that is what _ that is what singapore did, that is what many— that is what singapore did, that is what many other countries did. and we didnt— what many other countries did. and we didn't do— what many other countries did. and we didn't do it. we were not doing it in february, it wasn't on the table — it in february, it wasn't on the table and _ it in february, it wasn't on the table. and partly, it links to another— table. and partly, it links to another issue in this document, which _ another issue in this document, which is — another issue in this document, which is the how, how would you do it? it— which is the how, how would you do it? it is— which is the how, how would you do it? it is the — which is the how, how would you do it? it is the boring mechanics of, how would — it? it is the boring mechanics of, how would you find out and have a tletter— how would you find out and have a better contact tracing system, built at scale _ better contact tracing system, built at scale and so on. on better contact tracing system, built at scale and so on.— at scale and so on. on the relation to the help — at scale and so on. on the relation to the help point, _ at scale and so on. on the relation to the help point, which _ at scale and so on. on the relation to the help point, which is - to the help point, which is operationally, one of the points you make is there needs to be thought as to how to deliver strategy and follow—up and explore the questions and really examine under the bonnet what needs to be done. yes. and really examine under the bonnet what needs to be done. yes, exactly. it is the very — what needs to be done. yes, exactly. it is the very practical— what needs to be done. yes, exactly. it is the very practical detail. - what needs to be done. yes, exactly. it is the very practical detail. if - it is the very practical detail. if you say— it is the very practical detail. if you say in— it is the very practical detail. if you say in a _ it is the very practical detail. if you say in a model that we want to reduce _ you say in a model that we want to reduce social contact, a host of questions — reduce social contact, a host of questions immediately follow. howe, who, what? _ questions immediately follow. howe, who, what? how would we do the detait— who, what? how would we do the detail of— who, what? how would we do the detail of it — who, what? how would we do the detail of it— who, what? how would we do the detail of it. yes, two points i want to draw out- _ detail of it. yes, two points i want to draw out. you _ detail of it. yes, two points i want to draw out. you are _ detail of it. yes, two points i want to draw out. you are invited - detail of it. yes, two points i want to draw out. you are invited into l to draw out. you are invited into sage, you are at a number of meetings, you are watching and expressing concerns from the margins and then from the centre regarding what was happening and asking questions. you say in your statements that your view is that yourself and others were quietly dismissed as not understanding the science, is that correct? br; dismissed as not understanding the science, is that correct?— science, is that correct? by some, erha s? science, is that correct? by some, perhaps? some. _ science, is that correct? by some, perhaps? some, not _ science, is that correct? by some, perhaps? some, not all, - science, is that correct? by some, perhaps? some, not all, but - science, is that correct? by some, perhaps? some, not all, but yes. | science, is that correct? by some, - perhaps? some, not all, but yes. and our perhaps? some, not all, but yes. and your phrase — perhaps? some, not all, but yes. situc your phrase anchoring was perhaps? some, not all, but yes. fific your phrase anchoring was mentioned at the outset. anchoring, groupthink is the similar phrase used, but you mentioned this was at the heart of one of the missteps in that early response, is that right?- one of the missteps in that early response, is that right? yes. and on a number of — response, is that right? yes. and on a number of issues. _ response, is that right? yes. and on a number of issues. anchoring - a number of issues. anchoring essentially means you have a strong prior and _ essentially means you have a strong prior and you find it hard to move from _ prior and you find it hard to move from it _ prior and you find it hard to move from it so — prior and you find it hard to move from it. so humans in general, behavioural effect, tend to seek confirming evidence for their priors — confirming evidence for their priors. we are not as good at seeking — priors. we are not as good at seeking what is the counter evidence and in _ seeking what is the counter evidence and in particular, in this case, saying. — and in particular, in this case, saying, what experiment a piece of evidence _ saying, what experiment a piece of evidence would answer the question? that's_ evidence would answer the question? that's why— evidence would answer the question? that's why earlier on, i mentioned you can _ that's why earlier on, i mentioned you can do — that's why earlier on, i mentioned you can do experiments very fast. so if you _ you can do experiments very fast. so if you have _ you can do experiments very fast. so if you have a — you can do experiments very fast. so if you have a question, does it work or does— if you have a question, does it work or does it _ if you have a question, does it work or does it not? the puzzle becomes, how fast— or does it not? the puzzle becomes, how fast can — or does it not? the puzzle becomes, how fast can i answer that question? second _ how fast can i answer that question? second point in the final point i want to raises this. it's the negative impact of overconfidence is something you mentioned in this report. and you refer to previous detailed work you have done our decision—making in government and the headline is, to wear overconfidence. and you say this and perhaps we could bring this up. this is page three, please. second last paragraph, i think. is page three, please. second last paragraph, ithink. we is page three, please. second last paragraph, i think. we willjust leave it there for a moment and i would just make sure i have it. yes, second last paragraph. third line from the bottom. ironically, the pride in our science and our capabilities, that being the uk, slowed our ability to learn lessons from other countries. under cover of variations of, it is very different there. there was arrogance we knew better and would do better. that is your words which you set out in this report and sent to government. is that right? report and sent to government. is that riuht? . . report and sent to government. is that riuht? , . . , that right? yes, i did feel that was true. so that right? yes, i did feel that was true- so the _ that right? yes, i did feel that was true. so the report _ that right? yes, i did feel that was true. so the report a _ that right? yes, i did feel that was true. so the report a behavioural. true. so the report a behavioural government, looks at this. it shows for example — government, looks at this. it shows for example generally, people become more senior, there overconfidence generally— more senior, there overconfidence generally gets bigger, rather than less _ generally gets bigger, rather than tess~ i_ generally gets bigger, rather than less i did — generally gets bigger, rather than less. i did feel it characterised a lot of— less. i did feel it characterised a lot of what— less. i did feel it characterised a lot of what was happening from early on. lot of what was happening from early on those _ lot of what was happening from early on. those very early comparisons to other— on. those very early comparisons to other countries. japan, germany. and it made _ other countries. japan, germany. and it made us— other countries. japan, germany. and it made us lower to look really carefutty — it made us lower to look really carefully at what they did and learn the lessons from them. it also had many— the lessons from them. it also had many other— the lessons from them. it also had many other manifestations —— slower. masks— many other manifestations —— slower. masks woutd — many other manifestations —— slower. masks would be an example. we felt the evidence became very compelling, certainty— the evidence became very compelling, certainty by _ the evidence became very compelling, certainly by late march and early aprit— certainly by late march and early april for— certainly by late march and early april for masks and there was a strong — april for masks and there was a strong anchoring and scepticism in many— strong anchoring and scepticism in many of— strong anchoring and scepticism in many of the medical community. and links to what — many of the medical community. fific links to what you many of the medical community. e'"ic links to what you say many of the medical community. el"ic links to what you say in your report and the final point for me is you say in your statements that there was a touch of hubris in paragraph 167. you perhaps, a touch of hubris that we knew better and we would do better, alongside criticisms of how badly other countries were doing. that is a view that you formed at the time, is that your position? that is so. from even february and i should _ that is so. from even february and i should be _ that is so. from even february and i should be clear, of course, this was written _ should be clear, of course, this was written privately. the last thing we wanted _ written privately. the last thing we wanted to — written privately. the last thing we wanted to do was undermine key figures — wanted to do was undermine key figures. on the other hand, to learn the lessons — figures. on the other hand, to learn the lessons. so, yes, there was a sense _ the lessons. so, yes, there was a sense elsewhere that we were lucky almost _ sense elsewhere that we were lucky almost to _ sense elsewhere that we were lucky almost to have the best team. in our senior— almost to have the best team. in our senior figures. and there is no doubt — senior figures. and there is no doubt they are extremely talented and brilliant people. but that can also bring — and brilliant people. but that can also bring a lacuna with it of overconfidence and particularly may be less _ overconfidence and particularly may be less openness to other aspects, to the _ be less openness to other aspects, to the engineering, the how, the detail, _ to the engineering, the how, the detail, the — to the engineering, the how, the detail, the behavioural. so, yes. and we — detail, the behavioural. so, yes. and we could be wrong, of course, we could _ and we could be wrong, of course, we could be _ and we could be wrong, of course, we could be totally wrong. that even if we had _ could be totally wrong. that even if we had gone for it and really gone for it— we had gone for it and really gone for it in— we had gone for it and really gone for it in february, could we have built— for it in february, could we have built a _ for it in february, could we have built a south korean or singapore system? — built a south korean or singapore system? with the public or ministers have wanted to do it because of some of the _ have wanted to do it because of some of the intrusiveness it would have implied? — of the intrusiveness it would have implied? but we feel we didn't deliver— implied? but we feel we didn't deliver on that. and there were really— deliver on that. and there were really a — deliver on that. and there were really a lot— deliver on that. and there were really a lot of examples of the slowness _ really a lot of examples of the slowness of the system, which was then manifested with really great consequence. then manifested with really great consequence-— then manifested with really great conseuuence. . ~ , ., . , consequence. thank you, those are my ruestions, consequence. thank you, those are my questions. i'm — consequence. thank you, those are my questions, i'm grateful— consequence. thank you, those are my questions, i'm grateful for— consequence. thank you, those are my questions, i'm grateful for your - questions, i'm gratefulfor your questions. questions, i'm grateful for your questions-— questions, i'm grateful for your questions. questions, i'm grateful for your cuestions. ., �* . . “ , questions. you're watching bbc news. this is our continuing _ questions. you're watching bbc news. this is our continuing live _ questions. you're watching bbc news. this is our continuing live coverage - this is our continuing live coverage of the uk covid inquiry. we have been hearing evidence from professor david halpern, who is the president of the behavioural insights team. that organisation advised the government on how people are likely to react to lock down measures during the pandemic using behavioural science. during the pandemic using behaviouralscience. it during the pandemic using behavioural science. it does sound like it is resuming, so let's return to that inquiry. to like it is resuming, so let's return to that inquiry-— to that inquiry. to participate in a cabinet office _ to that inquiry. to participate in a cabinet office led _ to that inquiry. to participate in a cabinet office led to _ cabinet office led to social—distancing review alongside patrick vallance, chris whitty and others, is that right? yes. and that review was a substantial piece of work, was it not? fairly substantial, yes. in the sense at least that its report was published by the government a year later, in july 2021. yes? by the government a year later, in july 2021- yes?— by the government a year later, in july 2021. yes? yes. my lady, that reort july 2021. yes? yes. my lady, that re ort as july 2021. yes? yes. my lady, that report as far— july 2021. yes? yes. my lady, that report as far as _ july 2021. yes? yes. my lady, that report as far as i _ july 2021. yes? yes. my lady, that report as far as i am _ july 2021. yes? yes. my lady, that report as far as i am aware is not on the relativity system, but is aware on the government's website. doctor halpern, that report published injuly doctor halpern, that report published in july 2021 doctor halpern, that report published injuly 2021 does not make any distinction, does it, between the differing aspects, impacts, excuse me, differing impacts of social—distancing rules on adults and children. can you assist as to why? i and children. can you assist as to wh ? .., �* and children. can you assist as to wh ? . ., �* . ., ., and children. can you assist as to wh? . ., why? i can't recall the detail of it. it why? i can't recall the detail of it- it was _ why? i can't recall the detail of it- it was of — why? i can't recall the detail of it. it was of course, _ why? i can't recall the detail of it. it was of course, the - why? i can't recall the detail of it. it was of course, the main l why? i can't recall the detail of- it. it was of course, the main point of the _ it. it was of course, the main point of the report— it. it was of course, the main point of the report was to look at whether you could _ of the report was to look at whether you could for example relax the two metre _ you could for example relax the two metre rule — you could for example relax the two metre rule and replace it with, substitute other equivalent issues. but you're — substitute other equivalent issues. but you're right of course, there would _ but you're right of course, there would be — but you're right of course, there would be particular issues for children _ would be particular issues for children. playgrounds, etc, other activity — children. playgrounds, etc, other activity so— children. playgrounds, etc, other activity. so forgive me, iam happy to look— activity. so forgive me, iam happy to look in— activity. so forgive me, iam happy to look in more detail, but i don't recall— to look in more detail, but i don't recall the — to look in more detail, but i don't recall the extent to which children were _ recall the extent to which children were discussed. i don't remember it as a were discussed. idon't remember it as a major— were discussed. i don't remember it as a major theme. were discussed. i don't remember it as a majortheme. but were discussed. i don't remember it as a major theme. but i'm sure you know— as a major theme. but i'm sure you know better— as a major theme. but i'm sure you know better than me. just as a major theme. but i'm sure you know better than me.— as a major theme. but i'm sure you know better than me. just on that, i su ose know better than me. just on that, i suppose there _ know better than me. just on that, i suppose there are _ know better than me. just on that, i suppose there are a _ know better than me. just on that, i suppose there are a number- know better than me. just on that, i suppose there are a number of- suppose there are a number of possibilities. it could be an issue in relation to the terms of reference and the scope that government set or it could have been because of how the team, the behavioural impacts team chose to prioritise the issue of social—distancing rules. if you can't help on that, but please say so, but that is really what i'm trying to get at. i’m so, but that is really what i'm trying to get at— so, but that is really what i'm t inuatoetat. �* ., , . trying to get at. i'm not sure much more i can — trying to get at. i'm not sure much more i can add _ trying to get at. i'm not sure much more i can add on _ trying to get at. i'm not sure much more i can add on the _ trying to get at. i'm not sure much more i can add on the specifics. i trying to get at. i'm not sure much l more i can add on the specifics. but you're _ more i can add on the specifics. but you're right, — more i can add on the specifics. but you're right, there are many groups and segments one needs to consider including _ and segments one needs to consider including children. you and segments one needs to consider including children.— including children. you mentioned the two metre _ including children. you mentioned the two metre rule. _ including children. you mentioned the two metre rule. we _ including children. you mentioned the two metre rule. we are - including children. you mentioned the two metre rule. we are aware | the two metre rule. we are aware that at approximately the same time as this review was being commissioned injuly 2020, scotland as an example exempted children under 12 from the social—distancing rules? whereas england did not. laustere rules? whereas england did not. were ou aware rules? whereas england did not. were you aware of— rules? whereas england did not. were you aware of that? _ rules? whereas england did not. were you aware of that? cannot remember the timing _ you aware of that? cannot remember the timing. again, you clearly are on top _ the timing. again, you clearly are on top of— the timing. again, you clearly are on top of the detail. you the timing. again, you clearly are on top of the detail.— the timing. again, you clearly are on top of the detail. you may not be able to help — on top of the detail. you may not be able to help on _ on top of the detail. you may not be able to help on this _ on top of the detail. you may not be able to help on this either, - on top of the detail. you may not be able to help on this either, but - on top of the detail. you may not be able to help on this either, but can i able to help on this either, but can you assist as to why this review which, as i said, took a year to complete did not explore this i suggest significant difference of approach regarding children under the age of 12 between scotland and england? i the age of 12 between scotland and encland? . ., , the age of 12 between scotland and encland? , ., , england? i could be wrong, but i think the work _ england? i could be wrong, but i think the work was _ england? i could be wrong, but i think the work was done - england? i could be wrong, but i think the work was done much i england? i could be wrong, but i - think the work was done much more, in a much _ think the work was done much more, in a much more compressed weight than a _ in a much more compressed weight than a year — in a much more compressed weight than a year. it may have been a year before _ than a year. it may have been a year before it _ than a year. it may have been a year before it was — than a year. it may have been a year before it was published, but my memory— before it was published, but my memory is— before it was published, but my memory is that it was done in a relatively— memory is that it was done in a relatively short period of time. in the context that there were real concerns — the context that there were real concerns for example on the economic impact. _ concerns for example on the economic impact, many impacts on people's lifestyle _ impact, many impacts on people's lifestyle of especially the two metre — lifestyle of especially the two metre rule and that the language was often used _ metre rule and that the language was often used that could you identify for example one metre plus or an equivalent— for example one metre plus or an equivalent way of achieving the same reduction _ equivalent way of achieving the same reduction in _ equivalent way of achieving the same reduction in transmission? that would _ reduction in transmission? that would be — reduction in transmission? that would be less harmful to people's lives, _ would be less harmful to people's lives, to _ would be less harmful to people's lives, to the economy and so on. so that was— lives, to the economy and so on. so that was i_ lives, to the economy and so on. so that was i think the primary objective of it. my memory of it was it was— objective of it. my memory of it was it was done — objective of it. my memory of it was it was done in quite a compressed time _ it was done in quite a compressed time period, to be honest. what you have described _ time period, to be honest. what you have described was _ time period, to be honest. what you have described was the _ time period, to be honest. what you have described was the priority - time period, to be honest. what you have described was the priority as i have described was the priority as opposed to, for example, the fact that adults and children behave differently and social—distancing rules obviously impact differently on adults as opposed to children. is that right? on adults as opposed to children. is that riuht? . ., �* on adults as opposed to children. is that riuht? , ., �* ., , . that right? yes. i don't doubt that. thank you- — that right? yes. i don't doubt that. thank you. thank _ that right? yes. i don't doubt that. thank you. thank you. _ that right? yes. i don't doubt that. thank you. thank you. mr - that right? yes. i don't doubt that. thank you. thank you. mrjacobs. l that right? yes. i don't doubt that. i thank you. thank you. mrjacobs. dr halern, i thank you. thank you. mrjacobs. dr halpern, i ask _ thank you. thank you. mrjacobs. dr halpern, i ask questions _ thank you. thank you. mrjacobs. dr halpern, i ask questions on - thank you. thank you. mrjacobs. dr halpern, i ask questions on behalf . halpern, i ask questions on behalf of the trades union congress and feel free to continue to look forward if it is uncomfortable. could i start with page 30 of your statement and in particular, paragraph 132? i think it can be brought up on screen. what you say under the heading of financial incentives is we thought there was a strong case for using some financial incentives to support people to self—isolate when identified as having covid or having been in contact with a case. a specific concern was that low income and less securely employed individuals were being part off testing and isolating, given the impact on their financial situation. firstly, isolating, given the impact on their financialsituation. firstly, dr financial situation. firstly, dr halpern, financialsituation. firstly, dr halpern, why was it thought by you and the behavioural insights team that there was a strong case for financial incentives? so that there was a strong case for financial incentives?— financial incentives? so as we touched on — financial incentives? so as we touched on earlier, _ financial incentives? so as we touched on earlier, we - financial incentives? so as we touched on earlier, we were l financial incentives? so as we - touched on earlier, we were looking a lot at— touched on earlier, we were looking a lot at not— touched on earlier, we were looking a lot at notjust comprehension, but compliance, — a lot at notjust comprehension, but compliance, whether people were able to follow _ compliance, whether people were able to follow the rules of self—isolating and so on. and we would _ self—isolating and so on. and we would then— self—isolating and so on. and we would then look at certain groups who are _ would then look at certain groups who are saying they were not going to comply _ who are saying they were not going to comply and ask them why, and one factor— to comply and ask them why, and one factor was _ to comply and ask them why, and one factor was of — to comply and ask them why, and one factor was of course financial. in fact, _ factor was of course financial. in fact, i_ factor was of course financial. in fact, i wrote a detailed note to die down _ fact, i wrote a detailed note to die down harding mentioned at the end of the evidence. —— dido harding. i suggested — the evidence. —— dido harding. i suggested a number of things. one was that— suggested a number of things. one was that we strongly recommended producing _ was that we strongly recommended producing more financial support to those _ producing more financial support to those who— producing more financial support to those who couldn't afford it for reasons — those who couldn't afford it for reasons that would be blamed. if you are an _ reasons that would be blamed. if you are an uber— reasons that would be blamed. if you are an uber driverand reasons that would be blamed. if you are an uber driver and you are going to lose— are an uber driver and you are going to lose your— are an uber driver and you are going to lose your income, that is a pretty— to lose your income, that is a pretty big _ to lose your income, that is a pretty big deal and difficult for you _ pretty big deal and difficult for you so — pretty big deal and difficult for you. so how do we support that person? — you. so how do we support that person? would it be right to same basic— person? would it be right to same basic terms— person? would it be right to same basic terms that is not just an absence — basic terms that is not just an absence of an incentive, there is a powerful— absence of an incentive, there is a powerful disincentive for compliance which _ powerful disincentive for compliance which needs to be addressed? absolutely, absolutely. the correspondence _ absolutely, absolutely. the correspondence on - absolutely, absolutely. t"ie correspondence on this issue which you describe in these paragraphs of your statement relates to the latter part ofjuly 2020. had you been aware in the period of mid march when self—isolation comes to the fore and the end ofjuly of any determined focus and thinking about this issue of incentives for self—isolation? this issue of incentives for self-isolation?— this issue of incentives for self-isolation? , . . , self-isolation? yes, we had raised it of course- _ self-isolation? yes, we had raised it of course. there _ self-isolation? yes, we had raised it of course. there was _ self-isolation? yes, we had raised it of course. there was further - it of course. there was further work. — it of course. there was further work. i— it of course. there was further work, i think one of the bids of evidence — work, i think one of the bids of evidence was further work was asked to be _ evidence was further work was asked to be done _ evidence was further work was asked to be done on it and others had raised — to be done on it and others had raised the — to be done on it and others had raised the issue. we were concerned not only— raised the issue. we were concerned not only that financial support be given, _ not only that financial support be given, but — not only that financial support be given, but the way in which it was given, _ given, but the way in which it was given, too — given, but the way in which it was given. too-— given, but the way in which it was aiven, too. ., ,. , . , given, too. you describe raising it. was there a _ given, too. you describe raising it. was there a receptive _ given, too. you describe raising it. was there a receptive audience? i given, too. you describe raising it. | was there a receptive audience? my memory, and i think it is in some of the evidence — memory, and i think it is in some of the evidence all, was that the treasury— the evidence all, was that the treasury wear resistance. that is the treasury's job to be treasury wear resistance. that is the treasury'sjob to be resistant to spending money. but we found it, our sense _ to spending money. but we found it, our sense was they were not going to be easily— our sense was they were not going to be easily persuaded for a more generous— be easily persuaded for a more generous funding package. although of course, _ generous funding package. although of course, one was put together by i think— of course, one was put together by i think september. you of course, one was put together by i think september.— of course, one was put together by i think september. you may know. let's erha -s think september. you may know. let's perhaps look— think september. you may know. let's perhaps look at — think september. you may know. let's perhaps look at some _ think september. you may know. let's perhaps look at some of _ think september. you may know. let's perhaps look at some of the _ think september. you may know. let's perhaps look at some of the evidence l perhaps look at some of the evidence of that. can we have on screen 129010? 50 of that. can we have on screen 129010? so we have an e—mail from you of the 28th ofjuly 2020 addressed to some officials in dhs sea and the cabinet office. and second sentence is, we are also looking at the financial incentives issue for simon case right now —— dhsc. to see if we can move cx, is that the chancellor? yes. his starting position is quite sceptical. just pausing. so had there been conversations between you and mr case about this financial incentives issue about the chancellor being sceptical? i don't recall talking _ chancellor being sceptical? i don't recall talking to _ chancellor being sceptical? i don't recall talking to simon _ chancellor being sceptical? i don't recall talking to simon about - chancellor being sceptical? i don't recall talking to simon about it, i l recall talking to simon about it, i definitely— recall talking to simon about it, i definitely did not talk directly with the chancellor, but there were many _ with the chancellor, but there were many officials. also, i think, with the chancellor, but there were many officials. also, ithink, i'm trying _ many officials. also, ithink, i'm trying to— many officials. also, ithink, i'm trying to see. columba delhi was on the social—distancing review, a senior— the social—distancing review, a senior treasury official. -- the social-distancing review, a senior treasury official. -- claire columba delhi. _ senior treasury official. -- claire columba delhi. your _ senior treasury official. -- claire columba delhi. your e-mail- columba delhi. your e—mail continues, the risk is the national campaign, if in doubt, get a test, due for thursday, could be dogged by this lack of support, especially in key target groups. just briefly, what briefly are the key target groups you are referring to? so those individuals where we saw groups — those individuals where we saw groups much lower, a much lower compliance — groups much lower, a much lower compliance are less likely to come forward _ compliance are less likely to come forward for— compliance are less likely to come forward for a test. so we did a lot of segmentation to identify risk. that might be someone who was for example _ that might be someone who was for example in— that might be someone who was for example in an occupation which was in a lot— example in an occupation which was in a lot of— example in an occupation which was in a lot of contact with other people _ in a lot of contact with other people. classic example is a taxi driver _ people. classic example is a taxi driver but— people. classic example is a taxi driver. but whose income was very insecure _ driver. but whose income was very insecure. so... driver. but whose income was very insecure- som— insecure. so... would it be correct to sa in insecure. so... would it be correct to say in broad _ insecure. so... would it be correct to say in broad terms, _ insecure. so... would it be correct to say in broad terms, you - insecure. so... would it be correct to say in broad terms, you are - to say in broad terms, you are thinking about groups where compliance would be low? yes, particular. and perhaps transmission would also be high or higher risk? yes, thank you. in the last paragraph of that e—mail, you say lots of questions remain about which form of incentive or support would be maximally effective. my gut feeling is hmt will be hard to move to statutory sick pay change, but could be persuaded to go from australian style hardship fund administered by local authorities. was there a particular reason for your gut feeling that hmt would be hard to move on statutory sick pay change? so hard to move on statutory sick pay chanie? ., hard to move on statutory sick pay chance? ., ., , ., , change? so from memory only, it would be because _ change? so from memory only, it would be because it _ change? so from memory only, it would be because it would - change? so from memory only, it would be because it would have i change? so from memory only, it would be because it would have a| change? so from memory only, it i would be because it would have a lot of economic— would be because it would have a lot of economic terms dead weight cost. so it would _ of economic terms dead weight cost. so it would be very expensive. you would _ so it would be very expensive. you would be _ so it would be very expensive. you would be paying a lot people for whom they probably would have complied anyway. whereas something which is _ complied anyway. whereas something which is more akin to a discretionary hardship fund, especially we had suggested built into the _ especially we had suggested built into the test and tracing system. so when _ into the test and tracing system. so when you _ into the test and tracing system. so when you are saying to someone that it looks _ when you are saying to someone that it looks like _ when you are saying to someone that it looks like you need to isolate or do you _ it looks like you need to isolate or do you need support, and be able to offer it— do you need support, and be able to offer it straightaway. did do you need support, and be able to offer it straightaway.— offer it straightaway. did your team do any sort — offer it straightaway. did your team do any sort of _ offer it straightaway. did your team do any sort of extensive _ offer it straightaway. did your team do any sort of extensive work - offer it straightaway. did your team do any sort of extensive work on i offer it straightaway. did your team | do any sort of extensive work on the relative benefits of using the statutory sick pay system is against a hardship fund? statutory sick pay system is against a hardshipfund?l statutory sick pay system is against a hardship fund?— a hardship fund? i don't recall detail. a hardship fund? i don't recall detail- we _ a hardship fund? i don't recall detail. we did _ a hardship fund? i don't recall detail. we did in _ a hardship fund? i don't recall detail. we did in the - a hardship fund? i don't recall detail. we did in the gap - a hardship fund? i don't recall detail. we did in the gap andl a hardship fund? i don't recall- detail. we did in the gap and before this try— detail. we did in the gap and before this try and — detail. we did in the gap and before this try and design as you will gather— this try and design as you will gather one of our ways of working was to _ gather one of our ways of working was to figure out, how would you answer _ was to figure out, how would you answer that question literally to run an— answer that question literally to run an experiment for example in the local area? _ run an experiment for example in the local area? we didn't win that argument _ local area? we didn't win that argument but, is mentioned in this e-mail. _ argument but, is mentioned in this e-mail. we — argument but, is mentioned in this e—mail, we did identify a natural experiment which in care homes we felt was _ experiment which in care homes we felt was quite compelling evidence to reinforce the case that for low income _ to reinforce the case that for low income but — to reinforce the case that for low income but very important workers, it was— income but very important workers, it was important to offer that financial— it was important to offer that financial support. a it was important to offer that financial support.— it was important to offer that financial support. a few moments auo, ou financial support. a few moments ago, you referenced _ financial support. a few moments ago, you referenced the - financial support. a few moments ago, you referenced the fact - financial support. a few moments ago, you referenced the fact that | financial support. a few momentsl ago, you referenced the fact that a scheme of sorts was brought in. it was obviously more or less along the lines of the hardship fund administered by local authorities at the end of september. was your team as to do any work about the effectiveness of that scheme? for example, reviewing whether it was effective? i example, reviewing whether it was effective? ., �* , . effective? i don't believe you are asked to do _ effective? i don't believe you are asked to do so. _ effective? i don't believe you are asked to do so. we _ effective? i don't believe you are asked to do so. we did _ effective? i don't believe you are asked to do so. we did write - effective? i don't believe you are i asked to do so. we did write some work— asked to do so. we did write some work on _ asked to do so. we did write some work on it — asked to do so. we did write some work on it. particularly again around — work on it. particularly again around compliance issues. my memory and a _ around compliance issues. my memory and a lot— around compliance issues. my memory and a lot of— around compliance issues. my memory and a lot of people can dig that out for you _ and a lot of people can dig that out for you a— and a lot of people can dig that out for you. a particular issue was not only about — for you. a particular issue was not only about the scale of the money, but how _ only about the scale of the money, but how difficult it is to get it. so -- — but how difficult it is to get it. so -- so — but how difficult it is to get it. so -- so if— but how difficult it is to get it. so —— so if you are someone on a low income _ so —— so if you are someone on a low income and _ so —— so if you are someone on a low income and we — so —— so if you are someone on a low income and we say that you need to self-isolate — income and we say that you need to self—isolate and by the way, here is a load _ self—isolate and by the way, here is a load of— self—isolate and by the way, here is a load of paperwork and you have to id a load of paperwork and you have to go to _ a load of paperwork and you have to go to someone else, hopefully, it will get _ go to someone else, hopefully, it will get sorted out, that is not great — will get sorted out, that is not great. more important to say that you need — great. more important to say that you need support? we will give you that support right away. just ausin: , that support right away. just pausing, those _ that support right away. tut pausing, those are clearly important issues that go to the effectiveness of the scheme. is your evidence the work was not done at by your team as to whether those sort of concerns were adequately addressed in the scheme as it was introduced? i don't recall if we — scheme as it was introduced? i don't recall if we did _ scheme as it was introduced? i don't recall if we did experimental - scheme as it was introduced? i don't recall if we did experimental work i recall if we did experimental work on it _ recall if we did experimental work on it i_ recall if we did experimental work on it i do — recall if we did experimental work on it. i do recall we wrote notes about— on it. i do recall we wrote notes about the — on it. i do recall we wrote notes about the issues, flagging them and suggesting further work. and about the issues, flagging them and suggesting further work.— suggesting further work. and final cuestion. suggesting further work. and final question- you _ suggesting further work. and final question. you have _ suggesting further work. and final question. you have given - suggesting further work. and final| question. you have given evidence about your observation of the 13th of march that we are not ready or other chosen expletive. do you think it is a symptom of not being ready that it it is a symptom of not being ready thatitis it is a symptom of not being ready that it is not until late september that it is not until late september that a scheme is introduced addressing something as important as incentivising self—isolation? i do. incentivising self-isolation? i do. and i realise _ incentivising self-isolation? i do. and i realise we're _ incentivising self-isolation? i do. and i realise we're out _ incentivising self-isolation? i do. and i realise we're out of- incentivising self-isolation? i do. and i realise we're out of time, l incentivising self—isolation? i do. and i realise we're out of time, my lady. _ and i realise we're out of time, my lady. but— and i realise we're out of time, my lady, but perhaps i could use that to make _ lady, but perhaps i could use that to make a — lady, but perhaps i could use that to make a more general point? yes, it was— to make a more general point? yes, it was way— to make a more general point? yes, it was way too late and we had raised — it was way too late and we had raised it— it was way too late and we had raised it much earlier. not the only ones _ raised it much earlier. not the only ones but— raised it much earlier. not the only ones but it — raised it much earlier. not the only ones. but it was part of a pattern in a sense, — ones. but it was part of a pattern in a sense, lots of good people trying — in a sense, lots of good people trying to— in a sense, lots of good people trying to do right thing. your good intention— trying to do right thing. your good intention in— trying to do right thing. your good intention in policy or with scientific evidence, you have to translate — scientific evidence, you have to translate it into practical systems and approaches. will the money work, how difficult _ and approaches. will the money work, how difficult will it be? we thought the app _ how difficult will it be? we thought the app was absolutely key, we were very concerned from day one of the first lockdown, was the government ready— first lockdown, was the government ready for— first lockdown, was the government ready for the end of lockdown with the kind _ ready for the end of lockdown with the kind of— ready for the end of lockdown with the kind of tracking systems, etc? the app _ the kind of tracking systems, etc? the app was due, we were promised, in two _ the app was due, we were promised, in two to— the app was due, we were promised, in two to three weeks. it the app was due, we were promised, in two to three weeks.— in two to three weeks. it was six months. could _ in two to three weeks. it was six months. could it _ in two to three weeks. it was six months. could it be _ in two to three weeks. it was six months. could it be put - in two to three weeks. it was six months. could it be put this - in two to three weeks. it was six months. could it be put this way in two to three weeks. it was six i months. could it be put this way at least in relation to the self—isolation support, it is all well and good having the idea of self—isolation, yvonne doesn't think carefully through the practicalities of how to make it work effective, thenit of how to make it work effective, then it is not much use? == of how to make it work effective, then it is not much use?- of how to make it work effective, then it is not much use? -- if one doesn't. then it is not much use? -- if one doesn't- yes- _ then it is not much use? -- if one doesn't. yes. those _ then it is not much use? -- if one doesn't. yes. those are _ then it is not much use? -- if one doesn't. yes. those are my - doesn't. yes. those are my questions. _ doesn't. yes. those are my questions, thank _ doesn't. yes. those are my questions, thank you. - doesn't. yes. those are my| questions, thank you. thank doesn't. yes those are my questions, thank you. thank you doesn't. ies those are my questions, thank you. thank you very much _ questions, thank you. thank you very much indeedi — questions, thank you. thank you very much indeedi mr— questions, thank you. thank you very much indeed, mrjacob. _ questions, thank you. thank you very much indeed, mrjacob. you - questions, thank you. thank you very much indeed, mrjacob.— much indeed, mrjacob. you were watching bbc— much indeed, mrjacob. you were watching bbc news. _ much indeed, mrjacob. you were watching bbc news. we have - much indeed, mrjacob. you were l watching bbc news. we have been hearing evidence from professor david halpern at the uk covid inquiry. he leads the organisation which advise the government on how people are likely to react to lock down measures during the pandemic using behavioural science. he told the inquiry he was surprised about the inquiry he was surprised about the lack of public information about covid in the early stages of the pandemic and he also described being worried that the uk was not worried for what was coming. the inquiry was shown one of professor help and's notes in which he delivered a gloomy assessment on the government's preparedness for the onset and he told the inquiry that at times, he was quite shocked and depressed —— professor halpern's. he spoke about the cracking confidence he had in government. david halpern was also asked about his statement describing the actions of dominic cummings who we heard from yesterday, one of prime minister rhys thompson's top aides. he said his actions were unhelpful. —— borisjohnson. you can follow the updates on our websites and on the news app, it is being regulated —— updated wrigley throughout this inquiry and is expected to continue for many years. —— updated regularly. you're watching bbc news. this is bbc news, the headlines 76 injured palestinians and as many as 335 foreign passport holders are now reported to have crossed into egypt from gaza — the first to leave the strip since israel's siege began. our correspondent in gaza confirms all local mobile and internet services are down again. reports of another large air strike onjabalia in northern gaza — a day after dozens were killed there. time for a look at the business news now with ben thompson. the flexible workspace provider wework — will reportedly file for bankruptcy protection as early as next week, according to the wall streetjournal, citing sources familiar with the matter. a wework spokesperson told the bbc that it doesn't comment on speculation. the company has been grappling with losses and debt since 2019

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