mohammad shtayyeh, welcome to hardtalk, and thank you forjoining us from ramallah. now, the terrible scenes in rafah are just the latest mass casualty event of this war. as we stand nearly eight months into this phase of the conflict, how do you envisage the current war in gaza coming to an end? well, first of all, i hope there will be an immediate ceasefire and an immediate end to these atrocities that israel is committing against our people. as you rightly said, what is happening in rafah is simply a repetition of what has been happening since october 7th, a very terrible situation, genocide, massive killing and also use of aid and food and water and electricity as a tool for killing good people. there are people who have been killed because of bombing, and there are people who have been dying because of hunger, been dying because of lack of medical treatment. so the situation, really, is very catastrophic. and there isn't anything called refuge. there isn't anything that's called safe area. that's called safe passage. people are targeted everywhere they have been moving, and the situation is getting worse every single day. all this israeli media, news and news media or the propaganda that there are safe passages, safe areas is totally, totally untrue. so people are starving and people are in a very desperate situation. the water supply was cut off, the electricity supply was cut off. sewage is flooding everywhere because of lack of power and pumping into the sea and so on. so, at every level. hospitals have been really out of service because of lack of fuel, because of lack of medical supplies. there are, today, more than 78,000 palestinians have been injured. 15,000 of them need medical treatment outside of gaza, and more than 35,000 palestinians have been killed, of which 70% to 75% are women and children. we have seen horrifying scenes in rafah. people are innocent. they were burned alive and they were burned to death. no civil defence, no fire brigades, nothing to put the fire off. we have seen it in rafah, yes, but it did also... we have seen it before in jabalia. we have seen it in beit hanoun. we have seen it in quite a number of areas in the gaza strip. so, all in all, it's a very tragic situation, and israel should be held responsible for all that israel... what they have been doing. this is a total violation of the icj ruling. it's a total violation of a human rights. of the international political will. and it is a total violation of every single basic law of everything, a humanitarian law, that israel is committing these crimes in the name of self—defence. and israel says it doesn't target civilians. it is investigating what happened in rafah this week. it also denies the accusation of genocide. i wonder if you would say, and you are a member of fatah, you are not a member of hamas, but hamas governed in gaza. hamas led the attacks of october the 7th. do you think they do bear a share of the responsibility for the suffering in gaza today? october 7th, michelle, is not the d—day in which all the palestinian problems have started. october 7th was only an episode in a catastrophic situation that palestinians have been living in since 1948, and we have seen it in �*48 — 950,000 palestinians were made refugees, thousands of people were killed, 531 palestinian towns and villages were levelled to earth. and then, 1956, when israel occupied gaza, and in 1967, when israel reoccupied gaza, and so on and so forth. so the palestinian—israeli conflict did not start on october 7th. palestinian—israeli conflict has been ongoing for the last 76 years. because you were describing the suffering... by all means... when you were describing the suffering in gaza, because you were describing the suffering in gaza, that's why i ask you whether hamas bears a share of the responsibility. there are members of your party, fatah, who have said hamas did not consult other palestinian leadership, and that what it has brought about is, as one statement said, worse, more horrific and crueller than the nakba of 19118. well, look, i mean, people who are under occupation, and palestinians have been under occupation since 1967 and for the last 76 years. so the sufferings... it's an accumulative issue. the sufferings of the palestinian people, regardless of who has brought it, palestinians under any circumstances, they have been fighting for their liberty, for their freedom, for their independence, for their sovereignty. and this is what the peace process has been about, and that is why we wanted a peace process, and that is what we wanted out of this peace process — to put an end to the sufferings of the palestinian people. unfortunately, the situation gets complicated every single day, and instead of us walking forward, we have been walking backward because of the israeli measures. gaza has been put under siege for 17 years, and the west bank has been under attack continuously, whether by settlers or by the army and so on. so, in general, the general picture of the palestinians, wherever they are, is a picture of pain, of sufferings, of sorrow and sadness. and therefore i don't think that, in any circumstances, one can blame the victim, and palestinians have been victims. in the last few days, other developments have included norway, ireland and spain recognising palestinian statehood, something that you and your colleagues in the palestinian authority and fatah have long wanted. would you accept that that has happened now partly because of the actions of hamas? well, this is not a reward for what has been happening. people should not consider it that way. we have been engaging with these countries for quite some time. remember one important thing — that our president presented to the security council in 2011, and i was with him, and the united states has vetoed our admission as a state in the united nations family. and then in 2012, 138 countries have voted to recognise palestine as a non—member state of the united nations. but when, in 1988, when the palestine liberation 0rganisation declared a state on the borders of 1967, 105 countries recognised palestine at that time. so it is an accumulative process. now we are extremely happy to see, of course, that the palestinian cause has been centre of gravity since october 7th. by all means, yes. 0n the other hand, this work has been accumulative, as i said, but also, we are hoping that other countries should recognise palestine. remember one thing, which is all those who believe in two states, including the united kingdom, those who have been calling for two—state solution, they have been calling for a peace process that will end fruitfully with two states. this materialisation, it didn't happen because peace process between us and israel has not been really ongoing for quite some time. the last talks that has happened between palestinians and israelis stopped in 2014. so since...ten years ago, there has been no serious talks. and israel is systematically destroying the two—state solution. today, there is an opportunity. the issue is not about punishing israel and it should not be seen that way. well, one israeli minister has said that the countries who've done this have effectively shown that terrorism pays. but i want to ask you whether you acknowledge that this is a moment ofjeopardy for palestinians, ordinary palestinians, especially those living in the occupied west bank, and you're speaking to us from ramallah, and that is because the israeli finance minister has been very clear of the consequences, which, according to him, should flow from this recognition. he says, for every country that recognises palestinian statehood, three new settlements will be built. he's also talked about punitive measures on your colleagues in the palestinian authority, and you are already in a very risky financial position, are you not, because of the withholding of tax receipts that are collected by israel on behalf of the palestinian authority? you're100% right. look, first of all, israel is not in a position to impose its political will on other countries. norway is a sovereign country in the same way that ireland and spain and others, sweden and others, those countries are sovereign, and they have the right to recognise palestine as a state on the borders of �*67. this is something that the whole international community has been calling about. president biden, when he was here, he has been calling for two states, and he said two states on the borders of �*67. and that's exactly what these countries have done. so israel is not in a position to really, you know, recall ambassadors or to take certain measures against these countries, one. the second, these countries can also take certain measures against israel. also, as you rightly said, israel has been punishing the palestinians. when we applied for membership of icc, we were banished. when we wanted united nations to recognise palestine, we were banished. when the other countries are now recognising palestine, we are banished. the question is, what does this israeli government want? this israeli government does not want two states. this israeli government does not want one state. wants killing for the sake of killing. and this israeli government simply is saying that the jewish people have the right, have exclusive right to settle in every single part ofjudea and samaria and reference to palestinian... you cooperate with them, don't you? ..in1967. so therefore, it is not up to one minister in the israeli cabinet to decide for others. but you have security arrangements with them, you cooperate with them. you do have a relationship with the israeli government, and some people living in the west bank, where support for hamas has risen over these months, would look at you and see you as people who have not achieved anything, who have not delivered for the palestinians. not really. first of all, this israeli security arrangement with us has been destroyed by israel, and all the security coordination has been torpedoed by the israelis, because simply now what israel is doing, israel is reoccupying every single village, every single city and every single refugee camp. so, one. the second important issue, the palestinian authority, since it was established in 1993—94, has achieved a lot. palestinians are on their land, palestinians have passports, palestinians have leadership, palestinians have ministries, they have institutions, and we have our own say and so on. and this is a national authority. this palestinian authority is not a security agent for israel. this palestinian authority is a reflection of the will of the palestinian people. the palestinian president has been elected. but at the same time, also, in that same period... unfortunately, israel has blocked our right for elections injerusalem in the last, since the last five, six years. 0k. i mean, it was supposed to be a four—year term, president abbas, and he's been in powerfor 19 years now. you mentioned the icc, and i want to ask you about how you see palestinian responsibility under the same statute. if the chief prosecutor of the icc gets his arrest warrants, three of them will be for hamas leaders, ismail haniyeh, mohammed deif and yahya sinwar. if they are then on palestinian territory in ramallah, where you are, elsewhere in areas of the west bank that you control, would you hand them over to the icc? icc is not a palestinian invention. icc, international criminal court, and icj, international court ofjustice, these are legal international institutions. we found them there and we joined them and we became members, and we signed the rome statute, and we became a member of the icc, of international criminal court. 0ne. the second important issue is that now that israel used to claim that they are victims all through history, and now israel is standing trial at the icj, and there are the israeli prime minister and some of his ministers are wanted by the icc... as are three hamas leaders. ..and an arrest warrant will be issued hopefully by the icc... you haven't answered my question, mr shtayyeh. ..hopefully very soon. you haven't answered my question. would you hand over the three hamas leaders if arrest warrants are issued for them? this is the situation in which i am not a member of the icc. the israelis have committed crimes and genocide against our people. whatever the ruling of the icc is something that all parties have to accept. all five of the people for whom arrest warrants have been sought by the chief prosecutor have very serious charges against them. you seem to be dodging the question of whether you would be prepared, as a palestinian leader, to act in line with what the court may rule if it wants these, if it does issue these arrest warrants. well, i was very clear, i told you explicitly that under the circumstances, palestinians are victims wherever they are. and i am sure the court will look into these realities, that there is no way that the court will look at a situation in which the victims are putting on equal footing with those who are committing genocide against our people. so that is where we are, and let's wait and see what the court will say on these issues. let's talk about political realities, the day after a ceasefire in gaza, or whatever the way that war comes to an end, and indeed your own political future, as well. you said in december, when you were still palestinian prime minister, that you were working with the united states, that there was a plan under way for the future of gaza. you then resigned in february with all of your ministers at president abbas�*s request. why was that? what is going on right now in the palestinian political scene in ramallah? well, for the future of gaza the day after, there are quite a number of questions that are not answered yet. first question that needs an answer, for how long the israeli occupation to gaza is going to continue. obviously, it seems that prime minister netanyahu wants to keep it going as long as he can stay in power. there are also israeli plans for creating buffer zones all along the gaza borders, certain security arrangements, bringing private security companies into gaza. there are certain movements in this direction. the second important question that is not answered yet is what sort of hamas we will have in gaza. i don't think that hamas is going to be, as netanyahu wishes to see, hamas is not going to be physically eradicated or eliminated. there might be some sort of, you know, a loss of their geographic base in gaza. but hamas is an idea that has supporters everywhere. and the third important question, which is what sort of palestinian authority that's going to take over gaza. yes, we said before that we are not going to take over gaza on an israeli tank or in the shadow of an israeli tank, and we are not going to be in confrontation with hamas in gaza. so therefore palestinians need to sit down and put their house in order. 0ne. second, we resigned because we wanted to give a chance for palestinian unity. remember, our resignation came a week before palestine, all palestinian factions were meeting in moscow for a national unity. and also there are new developments that has to do with the reality in gaza, so our resignation was to facilitate. and also i was in office forfive years, and i think five years is more than enough. so you're not planning to come back? we have been put under siege. the israelis have put under us under siege financially and the palestinian authority was not allowed to function. so are you planning to come, are you planning to come back or not? are you saying your political career is over? i didn't, i didn't... i left my government office, but i did not leave my office as a member of the central committee of fatah. i am here to serve our people in any way, in any position that i am in. so i did leave the prime minister's office, but i am not leaving my duties as a person who wanted to serve our people wherever i am and wherever we are. so i continue to serve, and i continue to struggle until palestine is free and until palestine is liberated, and until we see an end to the sufferings of our people through the end of the israeli occupation that has been really committing all this genocide against our people. so our fight for freedom, for liberty and for independence will continue until we achieve that, hopefully through peaceful means. i think you're suggesting that there is a process under way that could see you and hamas govern gaza together. is that your aim? well, uh, yes, we have been engaging with hamas through the last, all through the last 17 years, we have signed agreements of reconciliation. unfortunately, it didn't work. and now we are re—engaging again. we had a meeting in moscow, and last week we had a meeting in china, in beijing. and there is another meeting that is scheduled on immediately after eid al—adha. so it is our hope that the palestinian house will be put in order. because look at the situation. there is no political horizon. united states has blocked every possibility for a political horizon, and the united states has vetoed our political goal for palestine to become a member state of the united nations. united states is not allowing palestine to be admitted in any international organisation, and united states is not recognising palestine at a time when we keep hearing promises from the administration that they believe in two states. now it is the time for those who believe in two states to recognise the other state, because all these countries do recognise israel as a state and now it is the time for these countries to recognise palestine. hamas carried out, hamas carried out... the other important issue is that we are left with no option. i need to put to you, mr shtayyeh... unfortunately, hamas took over gaza by force, and now it is time for the palestinians to put their house in order. and they, and they... ..and hamas has also used extreme violence against civilians, including children and the elderly, and are continuing to hold israeli hostages. can you really, to all those who are appalled by those scenes, can you really say that they are a credible and acceptable partner to you in fatah who have renounced violence, let alone to their neighbours in israel and to the united states? well, look, let me be very clear. first of all, there is no way that we accept the killing of any innocent people. second, any talks with hamas, there are prerequisites — and our president has handed to the emir of qatar eight points that we need hamas to agree to. if hamas agrees to these eight points, they are in. if not, then we continue talking, because at the end of the day, there is no way we are not going to their square, we are not going to their corner. we want them to come to the palestinian consensus. is the renunciation of violence one of the eight points? i think it is there. you think or you don't know? i said, i think it is there. is it a vital condition as far as you are concerned? yes, i do. there are eight points, including the commitments of the plo. peaceful, peaceful... peaceful resistance, peaceful, passive resistance. recognition of the plo commitments, two states on the borders of �*67. all these points are there and we are engaging dialogue on these points. are you calling on hamas to release the hostages? i call upon israel to release the 10,000 palestinians who have been injail, quite a number of them for a0 years or more. i call upon israel to put an end to the sufferings of the palestinians. i want the hostages to go home, and i want the palestinian prisoners to go home as well. we want an end to the conflict. this conflict has been ongoing for quite some time. in the same way that the israelis are calling for their kids to go home, we also call for our kids to come home. this is a situation that no mother wants to see her son in, in prison or injail. so we need, it's the time now that we put an end to the sufferings of all people in the region. and this is the time, after all these atrocities, that now we need to put an end to the bloodshed. we need an immediate ceasefire. we need food to enter into gaza. we need the palestinian prisoners and the israeli hostages to go home. we need the situation to be a total departure from the killing. people are tired, people are suffering, people are in pain. people have not been able to have a good meal. children have not been able to go to school. universities have been destroyed. hospitals are not functioning. who does not want an end to the situation, except netanyahu? mohammad shtayyeh, former palestinian prime minister, thank you very much for being on hardtalk. hello there. the weather for half—term has certainly brought its challenges this week. in fact, across the east coast, it's been rather grey, and take a look at thursday afternoon — and cromer pier, as you can see, it was raining quite heavily and with the breeze coming in off the north sea, it felt quite chilly as well. slightly different story further north and west in the western isles — this is the isle of lewis. we had just over nine hours of sunshine. that's because high pressure is starting to drift in off the atlantic and it will quiet the story down considerably as we move through the weekend. but this little nuisance weather front still bringing in quite a lot of cloud off the north sea on friday. and anywhere from east yorkshire down through east anglia and south—east england will continue to see some outbreaks of showery rain for a time. so into the afternoon, the showers gradually decreasing, but certainly more cloud here, only 15 or 16 degrees. further west, with the cloud well broken, the winds a little lighter, we should see temperatures peaking at 20 celsius. a dry afternoon for northern england, northern ireland and much of scotland. sheltered western areas of scotland perhaps seeing the best of the sunshine, and once again the best of the warmth as well. now, as we move through friday evening and into the early hours of saturday, we'll still continue to see a little cloud across east anglia and that kent coast. but with clearer skies, temperatures are likely to fall away here. one or two spots, we could see temperatures in rural parts down to around 4 or 5 degrees. so potentially a chilly start to saturday, but it will be a dry one and there will be a lot of sunshine pretty much from the word go. again, that nagging northerly breeze continuing to drive in a few isolated showers and some nuisance cloud. and there might be a little more cloud just into the far north—west of scotland. but sandwiched in between the two, a lot of sunshine, a drier story, and temperatures will start to respond. further west, we should see highs of around 20, 21 degrees, 70 fahrenheit. now, as we move into sunday and into next week, this high pressure stays with us for a time, but there's a risk of some weak weather fronts toppling across the high, which mightjust interrupt the sun from time to time. but all in all, the theme into next week looks likely to stay quite quiet, largely dry, and for many, a degree or so warmer than we've seen of late. take care. live from london, this is bbc news. trump found guilty — the former us president is convicted on all counts of falsifying business records in a historic criminal trial. this was a rigged, disgraceful trial. the real verdict is going to be november the 5th by the people. and they know what happened here and everybody knows what happened here. donald trump becomes the first former or serving us president to be convicted of a crime. he'll be sentenced on the 11th ofjuly. and in other news, for the first time, president biden gives ukraine permission to hit some targets in russia with us—supplied weapons. hello and welcome to bbc news. i'm lukwesa burak. we start in the us, where former us president donald trump has been found guilty on all counts in his hush—money trial. this makes him the first us president with a criminal