our first guest, please put your hands together for ourfirst guest, sir ed davey. applause hi there. good to see you. so, sir ed davey, welcome. just to say, our rules here are pretty simple. they are the same for every leader. you won't get interrupted if you keep your questions reasonably brief and actually answer the question. myjob here is to keep you to the point. so, on that, let's have our first question from alison. the liberal democrats - are planning to spend five times as much as the labour party in extra spending. _ aren't you going to i bankrupt the country? thank you for your question, alison. the answer is no. we put together a very detailed, costed manifesto, and it has got a big health and social care package at the centre, about £9 billion, and other things, for instance, helping with free school meals and the cost of living, and we have shown how we will pay for everything we have got in that. for example, we are thinking that some of the large corporates could pay more, example, the oiland of the large corporates could pay more, example, the oil and gas giants could pay more. they have made a huge fortune with oil and gas prices being so high. we have also said the big banks, the tax cuts the conservatives have given them, should be reversed, which would raise, for example, £45 billion. we have said to pay for our mental health programme, to make sure there is a mental health professional in every primary and secondary school, there should be an increase in the digital service tax on the social media giants, partly because some people think they are responsible for the mental health crisis for many young people. so when you say you have costed everything, you are promising to spend a whopping £26.8 billion extra spending overall. by spending overall. by the fifth year of the parliament. yes. there are some things i could not find how you will pay for in your manifesto. you want to sort out the courts back like. you will need to hire extra staff. i couldn't see where you would get the money for that. you say you also want to settle the issue of compensation for a waspi women about pension changes. that could amount to 10 billion. there is no reference to how you would pay for that. there are a number of tax changes we are making. one is to clamp down on tax avoidance and evasion, and all the parties are saying that. i think we can say that more credibly because we want to invest £i we can say that more credibly because we want to invest £1 billion in her majesty's revenue and customs. 50 in her ma'esty's revenue and customs. , ., ., ., in her ma'esty's revenue and customs. ., ., customs. so you are not saying in our customs. so you are not saying in your manifesto _ customs. so you are not saying in your manifesto how _ customs. so you are not saying in your manifesto how you _ customs. so you are not saying in your manifesto how you will- customs. so you are not saying in your manifesto how you will pay l customs. so you are not saying in | your manifesto how you will pay for it, you are saying now you will pay for those things out of taxation? yes, well, we have said in the manifesto, in the costings, we have pointed to a number of tax rises, and i am talking about the want of clamping down on people who are not paying theirfair share clamping down on people who are not paying their fair share of tax. the way to do that is to have more tax inspectors. hmrc have been cut back dramatically and can't do the job, and so, if you talk to the experts, they reckon for every pound you spendin they reckon for every pound you spend in tax officials and the technology for hmrc, you can raise £18. we haven't put that in our costings, we have just £18. we haven't put that in our costings, we havejust said £18. we haven't put that in our costings, we have just said an extra £7, so i think we have been quite cautious, and i think the money can be found. it's about the political will. and look what you can do with it. our nhs is on its knees. it's on its knees. people can't get gps, there is no nhs dentist, they are having to wait hours for ambulances, and on the care system, people are going without care. that is just wrong. going without care. that is “ust wronu. �* , , going without care. that is “ust wronu. ~ , wrong. let's see if alison is convinced. _ convinced. it may be a reflection of the labour expenditure — it may be a reflection of the labour expenditure plan, _ it may be a reflection of the labour expenditure plan, so _ it may be a reflection of the labour expenditure plan, so who - it may be a reflection of the labour expenditure plan, so who knows. it may be a reflection of the labour . expenditure plan, so who knows how much _ expenditure plan, so who knows how much we _ expenditure plan, so who knows how much we can — expenditure plan, so who knows how much we can afford? _ expenditure plan, so who knows how much we can afford? it _ expenditure plan, so who knows how much we can afford? it really- expenditure plan, so who knows how much we can afford? it really is - expenditure plan, so who knows how much we can afford? it really is not. much we can afford? it really is not a bottomless — much we can afford? it really is not a bottomless pit, _ much we can afford? it really is not a bottomless pit, is _ much we can afford? it really is not a bottomless pit, is it? _ much we can afford? it really is not a bottomless pit, is it? it— much we can afford? it really is not a bottomless pit, is it? it is- much we can afford? it really is not a bottomless pit, is it?— a bottomless pit, is it? it is not, of course _ a bottomless pit, is it? it is not, of course step— a bottomless pit, is it? it is not, of course stop and _ a bottomless pit, is it? it is not, of course stop and i _ a bottomless pit, is it? it is not, of course stop and i think - a bottomless pit, is it? it is not, of course stop and i think our i of course stop and i think our proposals are responsible, they are costed. the parties are frankly not putting the money in. we need to rescue our public services, particularly the nhs, but i was schools need betterfunding too. i've talked about the mental health provisions we want to make, but i think if you look at the cost of living, i'm very worried that children are going to our schools with empty stomachs, that they are hungry. they can't learn if they are hungry, and when we were in government, we provided free school meals for infant children. actually, we used a pilot that labour had done, so to give credit where it is due, but we put it in. the tories didn't like us doing it. george osborne did not like giving free school meals to infants, i can tell you, but now we think we need to go further. with a cost of living crisis, any child in poverty really should be getting a free school meal. let's take a question at the very back there. let's take a question at the very back there-— let's take a question at the very back there. , �* , ., , ., back there. isn't the problem that ou have back there. isn't the problem that you have a _ back there. isn't the problem that you have a credibility _ back there. isn't the problem that you have a credibility issue? - back there. isn't the problem that you have a credibility issue? you | you have a credibility issue? you enabled — you have a credibility issue? you enabled the _ you have a credibility issue? you enabled the posterity— you have a credibility issue? you enabled the posterity of- you have a credibility issue? youl enabled the posterity of cameron you have a credibility issue? you - enabled the posterity of cameron and osborne _ enabled the posterity of cameron and osborne i'm — enabled the posterity of cameron and 0sborne~ i'm not _ enabled the posterity of cameron and osborne. i'm not sure _ enabled the posterity of cameron and osborne. i'm not sure people - enabled the posterity of cameron and osborne. i'm not sure people will- enabled the posterity of cameron and osborne. i'm not sure people will be i osborne. i'm not sure people will be convinced _ osborne. i'm not sure people will be convinced by— osborne. i'm not sure people will be convinced by what _ osborne. i'm not sure people will be convinced by what you _ osborne. i'm not sure people will be convinced by what you say _ osborne. i'm not sure people will be convinced by what you say and - osborne. i'm not sure people will be convinced by what you say and do i convinced by what you say and do now _ - applause i have to say, it was very difficult governing with the conservatives. we couldn't get everything we wanted. but we are faced with a choice as a minister. you either had to stay in and fight inside the government or leave. i think the easy choice for me would have been to leave the government, vote against it and do a tour of the media studios and complain. the hard choice was to stay in, roll my sleeves up and really fight, and as i explained earlier, the tories didn't want us to bring in free school meals. we fought for that and we got it. they wanted actually to cut spending on welfare far greater than happened. for instance, in the second budget, when inflation was about 5.2%, they wanted to freeze benefits and pensions. but the question is about what you agreed to. are you embarrassed by some of the things you agreed to in coalition? i am not proud of some of the votes we did, fiona. i'm not proud of them, they want to overturn them. a lot of our policies are changing some of the things we had to agree to back then. but look what happened when we left office. i lost my seat, the conservatives were governing by themselves. george osborne's first budget cut welfare spending by £12 billion, hitting the poorest in our country. we stopped that, and people often,... i don't blame them, but they forget what we stopped as well. let's take another question from linda. britain desperately needs a leader who we can respect and trust. - your media profile has mainly- consisted of daily horseplay on tv. is this prime ministerial? well, . .. obviously, falling well,... obviously, falling off the addle well,... obviously, falling off the paddle board. _ well,... obviously, falling off the paddle board, going _ well,... obviously, falling off the paddle board, going down - well,... obviously, falling off the paddle board, going down a - well,... obviously, falling off the | paddle board, going down a water slide, going on a roller—coaster. you name it, you've done it. i'm happy to sort through all of them. i don't know what they have got in store for me after! we did wonder if you would paragliding here tonight! but it is a serious question, and i'm gratefulfor it. i take but it is a serious question, and i'm grateful for it. i take your concerns and the concerns of voters very seriously, and if you look at our manifesto, we have got some very well thought through policies to do things like rescue the nhs. but i don't think politicians should take themselves too seriously but i think thatis themselves too seriously but i think that is part of the problem in politics. people i really disillusioned. they think politicians don't get them, and yes, it is to grab attention, but when i fell off that paddle board and lake windermere, the serious message was about the sewage problem. the conservative government and water regulators have allowed water companies to pump filthy sewage into our environment, our lakes, rivers and seas, and that has got to stop. we want to end the sewage scandal. applause what about the roller—coaster? what was the serious message behind that? the roller—coaster... that was the day we launched our manifesto, and i said politics can be a roller—coaster ride, and boy, it was! roller-coaster ride, and boy, it was!— but _ roller—coaster ride, and boy, it was! filth! but let me give you another was! oh! but let me give you another one, when i slid down a slide in somerset. it was half term, lots of families and kids having fun, and i had some fun, yes. but that day, we launched a policy about the crisis in mental health for our young people and children, and hundreds of thousands of children are waiting to get care, to get counselling and therapy. that shouldn't be happening. it is going to blight their whole future if they don't get that help, and so we were putting forward, the day i came down that's like a very serious policy. the man there in the waistcoat. someone broke into my church, and they were _ someone broke into my church, and they were caught— someone broke into my church, and they were caught by— someone broke into my church, and they were caught by the _ someone broke into my church, and they were caught by the police - someone broke into my church, and they were caught by the police and i they were caught by the police and then when— they were caught by the police and then when i— they were caught by the police and then when i went _ they were caught by the police and then when i went to _ they were caught by the police and then when i went to see _ they were caught by the police and then when i went to see them - then when i went to see them afterwards, _ then when i went to see them afterwards, to _ then when i went to see them afterwards, to see _ then when i went to see them afterwards, to see why - then when i went to see them afterwards, to see why they. then when i went to see them - afterwards, to see why they broke in, they— afterwards, to see why they broke in, they said — afterwards, to see why they broke in, they said because _ afterwards, to see why they broke in, they said because they- afterwards, to see why they broke in, they said because they wanted j afterwards, to see why they broke i in, they said because they wanted to feed their— in, they said because they wanted to feed their children, _ in, they said because they wanted to feed their children, and _ in, they said because they wanted to feed their children, and 30%- in, they said because they wanted to feed their children, and 30% of- in, they said because they wanted to feed their children, and 30% of the i feed their children, and 30% of the uk now. _ feed their children, and 30% of the uk now. the — feed their children, and 30% of the uk now, the children _ feed their children, and 30% of the uk now, the children are _ feed their children, and 30% of the uk now, the children are in- uk now, the children are in desperate _ uk now, the children are in desperate need, _ uk now, the children are in desperate need, not - uk now, the children are in desperate need, notjust. uk now, the children are in- desperate need, notjust during the school— desperate need, notjust during the school period. — desperate need, notjust during the school period, but _ desperate need, notjust during the school period, but outside - desperate need, notjust during the school period, but outside the - school period, but outside the school — school period, but outside the school periods. _ school period, but outside the school periods. can _ school period, but outside the school periods. can we - school period, but outside the school periods. can we not. school period, but outside the . school periods. can we not raise school period, but outside the - school periods. can we not raise for lower— school periods. can we not raise for lower income — school periods. can we not raise for lower income tax _ school periods. can we not raise for lower income tax people _ school periods. can we not raise for lower income tax people at - school periods. can we not raise for lower income tax people at the - lower income tax people at the threshold — lower income tax people at the threshold of— lower income tax people at the threshold of income _ lower income tax people at the threshold of income tax? - threshold of income tax? i threshold of income tax? i wish _ threshold of income tax? i wish we _ threshold of income tax? i wish we had _ threshold of income tax? i wish we had the - threshold of income tax? . i wish we had the resources threshold of income tax? - i wish we had the resources to do that at the moment. people talk about the costing in the manifesto, we can't do anything. we have said in our manifesto when resources allow, we want to do that. we did that before. the conservative said you can't do that, and we said we can and must. but it is about making sure you are spending more money on certain things and any other party, but not in terms of making people pay less tax at the lower end of the tax sale? i don't think we can afford that yet, but one thing we can do to help families with children, there was you were talking about, i think the two child limit on universal credit isjust wrong. i two child limit on universal credit is just wrong. i think it has to go. if you look and talk to experts, they say the quickest, most cost—effective way of tackling child poverty is to get rid of that two child limit on universal credit, and thatis child limit on universal credit, and that is something that could happen really quickly. it is costed in our manifesto, because it is pricey, but i think it is the best way, and hopefully that means the family you were talking about would have the money and would not have to do that thing. a question back here. you're manifesto... is a case that you have gone unrealistic, because you have gone unrealistic, because you are not going to be prime minister— you are not going to be prime minister in _ you are not going to be prime minister in your— you are not going to be prime minister in your party- you are not going to be prime minister in your party will- you are not going to be prime minister in your party will not| you are not going to be prime . minister in your party will not get into power? _ into power? first, - into power? first, i- into power? i first, i would into power? - first, i would say, into power? _ first, i would say, with into power? — first, i would say, with due respect, the election is not over. i'm here to persuade people in this audience and people viewing it across the country to vote liberal democrat, because i think we have got great ideas, and i think we have been getting great responses from people. share been getting great responses from --eole. �* , ., been getting great responses from --eole. �* ,, , been getting great responses from eo le, �* , ., , ., been getting great responses from --eole. , people. are you trying to persuade eo - le people. are you trying to persuade peeple you — people. are you trying to persuade people you can _ people. are you trying to persuade people you can be _ people. are you trying to persuade people you can be prime _ people. are you trying to persuade people you can be prime minister? i am realistic about our chances, right? we have had three very bad elections. everyone knows that. when i became leader, i said elections. everyone knows that. when i became leader, isaid my elections. everyone knows that. when i became leader, i said my top priority was to defeat as many conservative mps as possible. so do you think you can or cannot be prime minister? we might as well hear it from you. we know what the polls say. it would be challenging, given the polls, but i don't want to put a ceiling on our ambitions. i want to persuade you. but ceiling on our ambitions. i want to persuade you-— ceiling on our ambitions. i want to persuade you. but the question here is about, persuade you. but the question here is about. is — persuade you. but the question here is about. is your _ persuade you. but the question here is about, is your manifesto - is about, is your manifesto effectively a wish list? for instance, you say, everyone should have the right to see a gp within 24—hour is. that doesn't mean anything unless you can find and fund gps, train them and transform the system so that is possible. a very fair point. can i take you through the gp policy? in the manifesto, we say we need to recruit 8000 more gps, and we have talked to health experts about how to do that. it would take about four years, with £1 billion a year. that is in our costed manifesto. there are several ways to do it. at the moment, there are people who have been trained at taxpayers' expense and have qualified as doctors, and they can't work as gps, because there is not money there to employ them. how crazy is that? we need to train more, we need to retain more. gps are leaving. some people in our country that come out of medical school go to australia. in australia, they are better valued, better paid, and isn't that crazy? it may be, but the question you are being asked is, is your manifesto effectively just a wish being asked is, is your manifesto effectivelyjust a wish list? you are unlikely to be prime minister, you can see you like. no, it is a programme for government, and like i answered earlier about the costings, and i would urge people, they are on the website, go and see for yourself. we put a lot of work into it to make sure we can afford something. let me explain. one of my lessons from when i was in government before, and we didn't deliver everything, was that you shouldn't promise something you can't deliver. like you shouldn't promise something you can't deliver-— can't deliver. like cancelling tuition fees? _ can't deliver. like cancelling tuition fees? indeed, - can't deliver. like cancelling tuition fees? indeed, and i can't deliver. like cancelling i tuition fees? indeed, and what can't deliver. like cancelling - tuition fees? indeed, and what i learned from _ tuition fees? indeed, and what i learned from that _ tuition fees? indeed, and what i learned from that process, - tuition fees? indeed, and what i learned from that process, two l learned from that process, two things, actually. first of all, don't promise something you can't deliver, and so, when you have a costed manifesto, make sure the sums add up, and i'm very confident they do we lost some trust during that period, and we have had to rebuild it. since i became leader, we spent the last four years trying to rebuild that trust by listening to people, in communities we seek to represent, trying to understand their concerns, and in our manifesto, we have tried to reflect those concerns. that's why i have put health and care right at the centre. i have some experiences of care, maybe we will come onto that. but i've also put the cost of living is our key priority. we mention free school meals. we are talking about reducing energy bills through insulating people's homes. that's good for the environment and to keep energy bills down. they are way too high. you have talked about your record when the lib dems were in coalition. let's get a question. in 2010, your partyi promised to abolish university tuition fees, _ but today students like me are left with hundreds of thousands of debt. how can my generation trust your party? - applause i understand why your generation lost faith in us, it was a difficult government to be in, i had choices with that we came out of it, or tried to get in there and win things, and we did not win everything and we lost that one, we got punished at the 2015 election, i lost my seat along with most liberal democrats. �* ., , democrats. being in government is alwa s democrats. being in government is always about _ democrats. being in government is always about making _ democrats. being in government is always about making choices - democrats. being in government is i always about making choices because money is not infinite, and i guess the question here is, how can people like you and others trust what you say, given you are promising an awful lot? ibis say, given you are promising an awful lot?— say, given you are promising an awful lot? . , ., ., ., awful lot? as i said to the man at the back the _ awful lot? as i said to the man at the back the thing _ awful lot? as i said to the man at the back the thing i _ awful lot? as i said to the man at the back the thing i learned - awful lot? as i said to the man at the back the thing i learned from | the back the thing i learned from that process, the whole process, and other things, as well, you should not promise what you can't deliver, and we did not then. you not promise what you can't deliver, and we did not then.— and we did not then. you are doing that now? — and we did not then. you are doing that now? absolutely _ and we did not then. you are doing that now? absolutely not. - and we did not then. you are doing that now? absolutely not. i - and we did not then. you are doing that now? absolutely not. i urge i that now? absolutely not. i urge --eole that now? absolutely not. i urge eo - le to that now? absolutely not. i urge people to look — that now? absolutely not. i urge people to look at _ that now? absolutely not. i urge people to look at our _ that now? absolutely not. i urge people to look at our manifesto | that now? absolutely not. i urge i people to look at our manifesto and the costings. we have said money should come from the people i have already listed, in answer to the question from alison, and i do not want to put tax up on ordinary people, people have seen tax rises at record levels under this government, and people should not be paying more tax in a cost of living crisis, apart from the very wealthiest. they tend to get their income and capital gains, and we think capital gains tax on the billionaires and multimillionaires should go up. it is essentially a loophole, they are often paying a lower tax rate on their very high amounts of money, and many people who are working, which is not right. we want to reform capital gains tax to get the money to do the things we are promising. brute to get the money to do the things we are promising-— are promising. we do question time every week. — are promising. we do question time every week, obviously, _ are promising. we do question time every week, obviously, but - are promising. we do question time every week, obviously, but most i every week, obviously, but most times the lib dems come on, 14 years on from breaking the promise of the tuition fees, it always comes up, i wonder how you feel about that, how scarring that has been? titer? scarring that has been? very scarring- _ scarring that has been? very scarring- l — scarring that has been? very scarring. i lost _ scarring that has been? very scarring. i lost my _ scarring that has been? very scarring. i lost my seat i scarring that has been? very scarring. i lost my seat and i scarring that has been? very i scarring. i lost my seat and the party was severely punished in 2015, but that is democracy. we did not do well in the subsequent elections after that, as well, and when i became leader i said, we have got to wake up and smell the coffee, we have got to connect with people and we have tried do that. it is work in progress but the parliamentary by—elections we have won in the tory heartlands, the local election results, and this may be pushed to the tories into third place, that has not been done in 30 years, that suggests some people are coming back and trusting us. you suggests some people are coming back and trusting us— and trusting us. you talked about ollin: and trusting us. you talked about polling and _ and trusting us. you talked about polling and obviously _ and trusting us. you talked about polling and obviously you - and trusting us. you talked about polling and obviously you are i and trusting us. you talked about i polling and obviously you are doing quite _ polling and obviously you are doing quite well— polling and obviously you are doing quite well in — polling and obviously you are doing quite well in the _ polling and obviously you are doing quite well in the south _ polling and obviously you are doing quite well in the south of _ polling and obviously you are doing quite well in the south of england. | quite well in the south of england. i am quite well in the south of england. i am from — quite well in the south of england. i am from the _ quite well in the south of england. i am from the north— quite well in the south of england. i am from the north of— quite well in the south of england. i am from the north of england, i i am from the north of england, manchester. _ i am from the north of england, manchester, and _ i am from the north of england, manchester, and you _ i am from the north of england, manchester, and you were i i am from the north of england, | manchester, and you were quite popular— manchester, and you were quite popular in — manchester, and you were quite popular in my— manchester, and you were quite popular in my area, _ manchester, and you were quite popular in my area, but - manchester, and you were quite popular in my area, but now- manchester, and you were quite popular in my area, but now it i manchester, and you were quite| popular in my area, but now it is more _ popular in my area, but now it is more a _ popular in my area, but now it is more a labour— popular in my area, but now it is more a labour heartland. - popular in my area, but now it is more a labour heartland. i am i more a labour heartland. i am listening — more a labour heartland. i am listening to _ more a labour heartland. i am listening to you _ more a labour heartland. i am listening to you and _ more a labour heartland. i am listening to you and i- more a labour heartland. i am listening to you and i am - more a labour heartland. i am i listening to you and i am convinced but what _ listening to you and i am convinced but what would _ listening to you and i am convinced but what would you _ listening to you and i am convinced but what would you say— listening to you and i am convinced but what would you say to - listening to you and i am convinced but what would you say to people i listening to you and i am convinced i but what would you say to people up north, _ but what would you say to people up north, seats — but what would you say to people up north, seats that _ but what would you say to people up north, seats that you _ but what would you say to people up north, seats that you might - but what would you say to people up north, seats that you might not i but what would you say to people up| north, seats that you might not win? why should _ north, seats that you might not win? why should i— north, seats that you might not win? why should i vote _ north, seats that you might not win? why should i vote for— north, seats that you might not win? why should i vote for you? _ north, seats that you might not win? why should i vote for you? i - north, seats that you might not win? why should i vote for you? i am“ i why should i vote for you? i am hoinu why should i vote for you? i am hoping you _ why should i vote for you? i am hoping you like _ why should i vote for you? i am hoping you like the _ why should i vote for you? hoping you like the manifesto why should i vote for you 7“ hoping you like the manifesto and the things i am saying tonight. there are seats in greater manchester i'm sure we can win. hazel grove and cheadle in stockport, we are looking really good to be the conservatives in those areas, and there are parts of the north, i was in sheffield earlier today with our candidate in sheffield hallam, where i think we can beat labour, and i am going to harrogate tomorrow. but it is true that the vast majority of seats i think we can win at this election are in the home counties against the conservatives and in the west country against the conservatives and in some rural areas like shropshire and mid wales. i5 and in some rural areas like shropshire and mid wales. is there an hint shropshire and mid wales. is there anything you _ shropshire and mid wales. is there anything you want _ shropshire and mid wales. is there anything you want to _ shropshire and mid wales. is there anything you want to hear? - shropshire and mid wales. is there anything you want to hear? i i shropshire and mid wales. is there anything you want to hear? i am i shropshire and mid wales. is there i anything you want to hear? i am torn between labour _ anything you want to hear? i am torn between labour and _ anything you want to hear? i am torn between labour and the _ anything you want to hear? i am torn between labour and the lib - anything you want to hear? i am torn between labour and the lib dems i anything you want to hear? i am torn| between labour and the lib dems and i between labour and the lib dems and lam between labour and the lib dems and i am convinced — between labour and the lib dems and i am convinced that _ between labour and the lib dems and i am convinced that what _ between labour and the lib dems and i am convinced that what is _ between labour and the lib dems and i am convinced that what is going i i am convinced that what is going on, i am convinced that what is going on. what — i am convinced that what is going on. what you _ i am convinced that what is going on. what you are _ i am convinced that what is going on, what you are saying, - i am convinced that what is going on, what you are saying, i- i am convinced that what is going on, what you are saying, i work. i am convinced that what is goingl on, what you are saying, i work in youth _ on, what you are saying, i work in youtthstice _ on, what you are saying, i work in youthjustice and _ on, what you are saying, i work in youth justice and the _ on, what you are saying, i work in youth justice and the things - on, what you are saying, i work in youth justice and the things about the court — youth justice and the things about the court are _ youth justice and the things about the court are important _ youth justice and the things about the court are important to - youth justice and the things about the court are important to me. i youth justice and the things about. the court are important to me. like fiona _ the court are important to me. like fiona said. — the court are important to me. like fiona said. how— the court are important to me. like fiona said, how you _ the court are important to me. like fiona said, how you are _ the court are important to me. like fiona said, how you are going i the court are important to me. like fiona said, how you are going to. fiona said, how you are going to cost _ fiona said, how you are going to cost them, — fiona said, how you are going to cost them, what _ fiona said, how you are going to cost them, what are _ fiona said, how you are going to cost them, what are you - fiona said, how you are going to cost them, what are you going i fiona said, how you are going toi cost them, what are you going to fiona said, how you are going to- cost them, what are you going to do to help _ cost them, what are you going to do to help youth — cost them, what are you going to do to help youth violence, _ cost them, what are you going to do to help youth violence, because i cost them, what are you going to doj to help youth violence, because that is growing _ to help youth violence, because that is growing in— to help youth violence, because that is growing in manchester, _ to help youth violence, because that is growing in manchester, so - to help youth violence, because that is growing in manchester, so what i is growing in manchester, so what are you _ is growing in manchester, so what are you going _ is growing in manchester, so what are you going to _ is growing in manchester, so what are you going to do _ is growing in manchester, so what are you going to do about- is growing in manchester, so what are you going to do about these i are you going to do about these issues, — are you going to do about these issues, youth _ are you going to do about these issues, youthjustice _ are you going to do about these issues, youthjustice in- are you going to do about these i issues, youthjustice in particular. i issues, youthjustice in particular. i would _ issues, youthjustice in particular. i would be — issues, youthjustice in particular. i would be interested _ issues, youthjustice in particular. i would be interested to _ issues, youthjustice in particular. i would be interested to hear- issues, youthjustice in particular. i would be interested to hear your views as well but let me give me some of mine first. when i talk to some of mine first. when i talk to some young people including my own constituency, they talk about the fear of knife crime, and i think thatis fear of knife crime, and i think that is really terrible. young people are worried about going out of their homes, to enjoy themselves, and some of them carry knives, they shouldn't, but they worry about that. so we have got to get beside those young people, through education and schools but also through community police, and one thing that used to work really well until i think was borisjohnson when he was the mayor of london got rid of them, we had lots of community police in my area, and they were highly visible, they got on the side of young people and i got the trust of young people and i got the trust of young people and i got the trust of young people. it was very effective in tackling that kind of crime. i effective in tackling that kind of crime. ., ., _ effective in tackling that kind of crime. ., ., ., ., crime. i have to say that you have mentioned _ crime. i have to say that you have mentioned a _ crime. i have to say that you have mentioned a number— crime. i have to say that you have mentioned a number of— crime. i have to say that you have i mentioned a number of constituencies and the candidates of all those constituencies are listed on the bbc website so feel free to check them out. we now have another question. in a coalition you would have to .lib in a coalition you would have to glib -- — in a coalition you would have to glib -- give _ in a coalition you would have to glib -- give up— in a coalition you would have to glib —— give up some _ in a coalition you would have to glib —— give up some of- in a coalition you would have to glib —— give up some of your. in a coalition you would have to i glib —— give up some of your most important — glib —— give up some of your most important policies? _ glib —— give up some of your most important policies? [— glib -- give up some of your most important policies?— glib -- give up some of your most important policies? i am standing on manifesto- -- — important policies? i am standing on manifesto... would _ important policies? i am standing on manifesto... would you _ important policies? i am standing on manifesto... would you contemplate auoin into manifesto... would you contemplate going into a — manifesto... would you contemplate going into a coalition _ manifesto... would you contemplate going into a coalition again? - manifesto... would you contemplate going into a coalition again? i - manifesto... would you contemplate going into a coalition again? i am i going into a coalition again? i am not going into a coalition again? i am rrot focused _ going into a coalition again? i am not focused on _ going into a coalition again? i am not focused on after _ going into a coalition again? i am not focused on after the - going into a coalition again? i —n not focused on after the election, because i want to make sure that every minute i get like this, and i don't often get it, is to put forward our liberal democrat values and our policies. the more i get a chance to do that, i'm hoping i can persuade people to come over to us and then the more liberal democrat mps we have, the more influence we have. ., ., ., , have. you have admitted it is unlikely you _ have. you have admitted it is unlikely you will _ have. you have admitted it is unlikely you will be _ have. you have admitted it is unlikely you will be prime i unlikely you will be prime minister, so people have a right to know in the likely eventuality, would you consider forming a coalition the likely eventuality, would you considerforming a coalition or the likely eventuality, would you consider forming a coalition or not? what i am at being really clear to people about, i want to make sure we maximise the liberal democrat number of mps, we are basically going to beat a few conservative mps, i hope, we are determined to focus in on that. . , . we are determined to focus in on that. ., , ., , ., ,., we are determined to focus in on that. ., , ., , ., ., we are determined to focus in on that. ., , ., ., ., that. that is a question you are not auoin to that. that is a question you are not going to answer? _ that. that is a question you are not going to answer? i _ that. that is a question you are not going to answer? i would _ that. that is a question you are not going to answer? i would explain i going to answer? i would explain wh . i going to answer? i would explain why- i have _ going to answer? i would explain why. i have been _ going to answer? i would explain why. i have been in _ going to answer? i would explain why. i have been in politics i going to answer? i would explain why. i have been in politics a i why. i have been in politics a little while and i have seen a lot of lib dems leaders and sometimes they have focused on what happens after the election and i notice when they do that, they do not focus on they do that, they do not focus on the job in they do that, they do not focus on thejob in hand, which is trying to win it seats across the country. brute win it seats across the country. we have another question now. there you go. have another question now. there you to. r , ., have another question now. there you to.�* ,., ., have another question now. there you to.�* ., . go. are you proud of your conduct when ou go. are you proud of your conduct when you wear— go. are you proud of your conduct when you wear the _ go. are you proud of your conduct when you wear the post _ go. are you proud of your conduct when you wear the post office i when you wear the post office minister? _ when you wear the post office minister? "— when you wear the post office minister? —— when— when you wear the post office minister? —— when you - when you wear the post office minister? —— when you were. | when you wear the post office i minister? —— when you were. you minister? -- when you were. you refused to — minister? -- when you were. you refused to meet _ minister? -- when you were. you refused to meet alan _ minister? —— when you were. refused to meet alan bates in minister? —— when you werem refused to meet alan bates in may 2010, and he said he found that disappointing and offensive at the time, and you then met alan bates in october and what you said to him to begin with, a meeting would serve no useful purpose. are you proud of that? ., _ useful purpose. are you proud of that? ., ., ., , that? can i say that the scandal is the biggest _ that? can i say that the scandal is the biggest miscarriage _ that? can i say that the scandal is the biggest miscarriage of- the biggest miscarriage ofjustice in the history of our country and my heart goes out to those sub—postmasters and their families who have suffered so much and i am representing three in my constituency and hearing the stories is quite harrowing. i made two big mistakes at that time, it was an issue that did not crop up much but it did at the start when alan bates had written to me, i had been in office about two weeks, and i said it was a matter for the post office, we do not govern it, and we are not going to meet you. he wrote back furiously and i and —— i then said i have got to meet him. i was the first post office minister to meet him, and i listened to what he had got to say, and i took all his questions and i asked them to my officials and to the post office. they gave me a categorical assurance that the points anna bates —— alan bates was making were not true, and that they had the courts look at this and they had found people guilty under a minute examination. i wish i had seen to that but that is what i was told. 50 wish i had seen to that but that is what i was told.— wish i had seen to that but that is what i was told. so are you proud of it? iwish what i was told. so are you proud of it? i wish i— what i was told. so are you proud of it? i wish i had — what i was told. so are you proud of it? i wish i had seen _ what i was told. so are you proud of it? i wish i had seen through - what i was told. so are you proud of it? i wish i had seen through the i it? i wish i had seen through the lies and i it? i wish i had seen through the lies and i am _ it? i wish i had seen through the lies and i am sorry _ it? i wish i had seen through the lies and i am sorry for _ it? i wish i had seen through the lies and i am sorry for not i it? i wish i had seen through the | lies and i am sorry for not seeing through those lies, there were many ministers of all political parties in this period who did not see through the light and the courts did not. this is the issue because i have obviously reflected on this because it is such a scandal, what i have come to the conclusion is, our system of government, whether you are a minister or in the courts, it depends on people telling the truth, and in a number of scandals like the contaminated blood scandal, the hillsborough scandal, the post office scandal, we have seen people not telling the truth. it office scandal, we have seen people not telling the truth.— not telling the truth. it also de-ends not telling the truth. it also depends on _ not telling the truth. it also depends on ministers i not telling the truth. it also l depends on ministers having not telling the truth. it also i depends on ministers having a not telling the truth. it also _ depends on ministers having a degree of curiosity and there was a conservative who went into the lords who had got a degree of curiosity and in the end he spent a lot of time uncovering it, but you did not have that curiosity? i time uncovering it, but you did not have that curiosity?— have that curiosity? i think i did, because i have that curiosity? i think i did, because i did _ have that curiosity? i think i did, because i did meet _ have that curiosity? i think i did, because i did meet mr— have that curiosity? i think i did, because i did meet mr bates, i have that curiosity? i think i did, | because i did meet mr bates, the first person to meet him in that job, and i asked his questions to the post office but i got those categorical assurances, so what we do when people are not telling the truth? there are a couple of big things, to change the system, for whatever the scandal, and the first is to get protection for whistle—blowers, because the horizon scandal was only uncovered during a panorama bbc programme in 2015 and in the high court in 2019 because one guy who was an insider in fujitsu blew the whistle, that took a lot of courage, and i think whistle—blowers serve the public interest but they do not have the protections and we need to give whistle—blowers far greater protections so these scandals are uncovered far more quickly. molar protections so these scandals are uncovered far more quickly. now the man at the back _ uncovered far more quickly. now the man at the back in _ uncovered far more quickly. now the man at the back in the _ uncovered far more quickly. now the man at the back in the blue - uncovered far more quickly. now the man at the back in the blue shirt. i man at the back in the blue shirt. should paula vennells face criminal proceedings— should paula vennells face criminal proceedings as _ should paula vennells face criminal proceedings as a _ should paula vennells face criminal proceedings as a result _ should paula vennells face criminal proceedings as a result of- should paula vennells face criminal proceedings as a result of the - proceedings as a result of the bonuses— proceedings as a result of the bonuses she _ proceedings as a result of the bonuses she has _ proceedings as a result of the bonuses she has profited i proceedings as a result of the bonuses she has profited on? proceedings as a result of the i bonuses she has profited on? i proceedings as a result of the bonuses she has profited on? i think there are serious _ bonuses she has profited on? i think there are serious mistakes - bonuses she has profited on? i think there are serious mistakes made i bonuses she has profited on? i think there are serious mistakes made by| there are serious mistakes made by paula vennells and the post office executives who were in charge, some of the lawyers, some of the people in fujitsu, and there is a public inquiry which i campaigned for because the people who have done this appalling thing need to be held to account, and there is a criminal investigation which i totally support, i don't think i should prejudice that investigation or the outcome of the inquiry, and the evidence that we have heard does speak for itself but i will let the judge in charge of the inquiry and the police make those final decisions but i do hope, i really hope that people go to prison for this. ~ . , hope that people go to prison for this. ~ ., , ., hope that people go to prison for this. we have “ust about 3-4 minutes. — this. we have “ust about 3-4 minutes, but i this. we have just about 3-4 minutes, but now _ this. we have just about 3-4 minutes, but now we - this. we have just about 3-4 minutes, but now we have i this. we have just about 3-4 i minutes, but now we have another question. has minutes, but now we have another cuestion. �* , . minutes, but now we have another cuestion. , ., ., question. as a 25-year-old university _ question. as a 25-year-old university graduate - question. as a 25-year-old university graduate living i question. as a 25-year-old| university graduate living at question. as a 25-year-old - university graduate living at home because _ university graduate living at home because of— university graduate living at home because of the _ university graduate living at home because of the high _ university graduate living at home because of the high cost - university graduate living at home because of the high cost of- university graduate living at home i because of the high cost of renting, what concrete — because of the high cost of renting, what concrete steps _ because of the high cost of renting, what concrete steps will _ because of the high cost of renting, what concrete steps will your- because of the high cost of renting, what concrete steps will your partyl what concrete steps will your party take to _ what concrete steps will your party take to address _ what concrete steps will your party take to address the _ what concrete steps will your party take to address the housing - what concrete steps will your party take to address the housing crisisl take to address the housing crisis to make — take to address the housing crisis to make it— take to address the housing crisis to make it easier— take to address the housing crisis to make it easier for— take to address the housing crisis to make it easier for young - take to address the housing crisisi to make it easier for young people to make it easier for young people to afford _ to make it easier for young people to afford their— to make it easier for young people to afford their own _ to make it easier for young people to afford their own homes? - to make it easier for young people to afford their own homes? you i to make it easier for young people to afford their own homes? you are -a~ledin to afford their own homes? you are pledging to — to afford their own homes? you are pledging to build — to afford their own homes? you are pledging to build a _ to afford their own homes? you are pledging to build a 380,000 i to afford their own homes? you are pledging to build a 380,000 new. pledging to build a 380,000 new homes per year, more than any other party, but i could not find any mention of the funding and where thatis mention of the funding and where that is going to come for for people like ryan. it that is going to come for for people like r an. , ., , ., like ryan. it is in the manifesto. it is a like ryan. it is in the manifesto. it is a capital — like ryan. it is in the manifesto. it is a capital investment, i like ryan. it is in the manifesto. it is a capital investment, 6 i it is a capital investment, 6 billion per year over the lifetime of parliament, funded by borrowing because it is capital investment, so it is in the manifesto. that because it is capital investment, so it is in the manifesto.— it is in the manifesto. that is what ou mean it is in the manifesto. that is what you mean by _ it is in the manifesto. that is what you mean by borrowing? - it is in the manifesto. that is what you mean by borrowing? yes. i it is in the manifesto. that is what you mean by borrowing? yes. we| it is in the manifesto. that is what i you mean by borrowing? yes. we said there should — you mean by borrowing? yes. we said there should be _ you mean by borrowing? yes. we said there should be 150,000 _ you mean by borrowing? yes. we said there should be 150,000 new- you mean by borrowing? yes. we said there should be 150,000 new social i there should be 150,000 new social homes built every year because they are affordable and they can be built in the right places and our approach is a community led approach, because the current system is not working, it is a developer led approach and they tend to build the wrong houses in the wrong places because they get more money for them.— in the wrong places because they get more money for them. about 150,000 homes er more money for them. about 150,000 homes per year _ more money for them. about 150,000 homes per year have _ more money for them. about 150,000 homes per year have been _ more money for them. about 150,000 homes per year have been built i more money for them. about 150,000 homes per year have been built in i homes per year have been built in the last decade, so what makes you think you can change all that so dramatically? it think you can change all that so dramatically?— think you can change all that so dramatically? think you can change all that so dramaticall ? a, , a, dramatically? it will not be done in the first two _ dramatically? it will not be done in the first two years, _ dramatically? it will not be done in the first two years, we _ dramatically? it will not be done in the first two years, we are - dramatically? it will not be done in the first two years, we are not - the first two years, we are not saying that. the first two years, we are not saying that-— the first two years, we are not sa in: that. �* saying that. but even within three or four years? _ saying that. but even within three or four years? i _ saying that. but even within three or four years? i think _ saying that. but even within three or four years? i think it _ saying that. but even within three or four years? i think it can. - saying that. but even within three or four years? i think it can. it - or four years? i think it can. it has happened _ or four years? i think it can. it has happened in _ or four years? i think it can. it has happened in our— or four years? i think it can. it has happened in our country l or four years? i think it can. it - has happened in our country before and we have got to skill up. but not for a lona and we have got to skill up. but not for a long time. _ and we have got to skill up. but not for a long time. but _ and we have got to skill up. but not for a long time. but it _ and we have got to skill up. but not for a long time. but it needs - and we have got to skill up. but not for a long time. but it needs to - for a long time. but it needs to ha en. for a long time. but it needs to happen- for— for a long time. but it needs to happen. for young _ for a long time. but it needs to happen. for young people. - for a long time. but it needs to happen. for young people. it l for a long time. but it needs to | happen. for young people. it is for a long time. but it needs to l happen. for young people. it is a question of how you will do it. i have been trying to explain that we want a different approach, a bigger focus on social homes which means the state investing in council properties, and my wife, i met her on a liberal democrat housing policy working group. on a liberal democrat housing policy working groun— working group. sounds like a great niuht out! working group. sounds like a great night out! she _ working group. sounds like a great night out! she is _ working group. sounds like a great night out! she is a _ working group. sounds like a great night out! she is a social— working group. sounds like a great night out! she is a social housing l night out! she is a social housing la er night out! she is a social housing lawyer and _ night out! she is a social housing lawyer and now _ night out! she is a social housing lawyer and now is _ night out! she is a social housing lawyer and now is in _ night out! she is a social housing lawyer and now is in charge - night out! she is a social housing lawyer and now is in charge of. lawyer and now is in charge of housing in my area for the council and she is in charge of the largest council house building programme in 40 council house building programme in a0 years in kingston so it can be done. my wife is doing it. i'm very proud of her. it needs political will, and the conservatives are clearly not interested, they want to play to the tune of the developers but i think if you play to the tune of the community it is better. some people say that people do not want homes built in their area and one of the reasons is they say, there are no gps, we do not need more people here, the infrastructure cannot take it, so you want a community led approach that deals with those issues. developers do not want to do it, so if you have a community led approach you can deal with the infrastructure problems and people will welcome more homes because they can see there's something in it for them. �* r, r, can see there's something in it for them. �* ., ., ., i, can see there's something in it for them. �* ., ., ., ., ., them. i'm afraid i have got to end it there because _ them. i'm afraid i have got to end it there because we _ them. i'm afraid i have got to end it there because we are _ them. i'm afraid i have got to end it there because we are out - them. i'm afraid i have got to end it there because we are out of - them. i'm afraid i have got to end it there because we are out of the allotted time for your slot. please flag, sir ed davey. —— please thank. applause one down, three to go. stick with us, still to come, the labour leader sir keir starmer, and the conservative leader rishi sunak. but next up, please welcome the leader of the scottish national party, john swinney. applause welcome. good to see you. welcome. so, welcome. good to see you. welcome. 50, rules the same with you, john. answer the question, keep to the point. that's the name of the game. i shall do that.— i shall do that. let's take our first question, _ i shall do that. let's take our first question, from - i shall do that. let's take our first question, from andrew. first question, from andrew atkinson. hang on, let's get the microphone to you. given the recent scandals and drama with the snp,| how will you differ from your _ predecessors and project competence? i think the honest answer is that we've had a very tough time as a party in the last couple of years, and as a consequence of all of those difficulties, i am and as a consequence of all of those difficulties, iam here and as a consequence of all of those difficulties, i am here to leave the scottish national party... wall difficulties, i am here to leave the scottish national party. . .- scottish national party... shall be 'ust sum scottish national party... shall be just sum no _ scottish national party... shall be just sum up those _ scottish national party... shall be just sum up those difficulties - scottish national party... shall be just sum up those difficulties for l just sum up those difficulties for those who may not be aware? you are the third snp first minister in a year the former chief executive of the snp has been charged with embezzlement. nicola sturgeon and another seniorfigure in embezzlement. nicola sturgeon and another senior figure in the embezzlement. nicola sturgeon and another seniorfigure in the party are under criminal investigation. i should add, all deny wrongdoing. so it has been a pretty turbulent time. it has, and i would be the first to accept that and admit that. so my party has asked me to lead it through this election campaign and beyond the 2026 parliamentary elections to essentially do two things. first of all, to rebuild trust between the electorate and the snp, and i have always worked throughout my political life to build trust and confidence with the electorate that have chosen me. and secondly, to provide the direction necessary in the scottish government to change people's lives, that's my primary duty as first minister of scotland, to make sure that we change lives and to improve lives of people in scotland, and i've set that programme out by establishing a focus on eradicating child poverty, on achieving the transition to net zero, strengthening the scottish economy and improving our public services. by doing that, i hope to rebuild the trust of people in scotland, which i accept the snp has got to earn on a constant basis. where are you, andrew? are you convinced? welcome i am an englishman, living in yorkshire, — welcome i am an englishman, living in yorkshire, but _ welcome i am an englishman, living in yorkshire, but i— welcome i am an englishman, living in yorkshire, but i have _ welcome i am an englishman, living in yorkshire, but i have family- welcome i am an englishman, living in yorkshire, but i have family in- in yorkshire, but i have family in scotland. — in yorkshire, but i have family in scotland. and _ in yorkshire, but i have family in scotland, and i— in yorkshire, but i have family in scotland, and i have _ in yorkshire, but i have family in scotland, and i have always - in yorkshire, but i have family in| scotland, and i have always been impressed — scotland, and i have always been impressed lry— scotland, and i have always been impressed by the _ scotland, and i have always been impressed by the way— scotland, and i have always been impressed by the way the - scotland, and i have always been impressed by the way the snp i impressed by the way the snp particularly _ impressed by the way the snp particularly held _ impressed by the way the snp particularly held the _ impressed by the way the snp - particularly held the conservatives to account — particularly held the conservatives to account at — particularly held the conservatives to account at westminster, - particularly held the conservatives to account at westminster, you i particularly held the conservatives - to account at westminster, you know, help them _ to account at westminster, you know, help them to — to account at westminster, you know, help them to account _ to account at westminster, you know, help them to account for— to account at westminster, you know, help them to account for their - help them to account for their scandals. _ help them to account for their scandals. so _ help them to account for their scandals, so i _ help them to account for their scandals, so i think— help them to account for their scandals, so i think it - help them to account for their scandals, so i think it has - help them to account for theirl scandals, so i think it has been help them to account for their i scandals, so i think it has been a real disappointment— scandals, so i think it has been a real disappointment this - scandals, so i think it has been a real disappointment this last - scandals, so i think it has been a real disappointment this last 18 i real disappointment this last 18 months — real disappointment this last 18 months or— real disappointment this last 18 months or so _ real disappointment this last 18 months or so with _ real disappointment this last 18 months or so with the - real disappointment this last 18 months or so with the snp, - real disappointment this last 18 months or so with the snp, sol real disappointment this last 18 - months or so with the snp, so that's what i _ months or so with the snp, so that's what i hoping — months or so with the snp, so that's what i hoping to— months or so with the snp, so that's what i hoping to have _ months or so with the snp, so that's what i hoping to have rebuilt, - months or so with the snp, so that's what i hoping to have rebuilt, on - what i hoping to have rebuilt, on behalf— what i hoping to have rebuilt, on behalf of— what i hoping to have rebuilt, on behalf of nry— what i hoping to have rebuilt, on behalf of my family _ what i hoping to have rebuilt, on behalf of my family in _ what i hoping to have rebuilt, on behalf of my family in scotland. i behalf of my family in scotland. how has — behalf of my family in scotland. how has it— behalf of my family in scotland. how has it gone _ behalf of my family in scotland. how has it gone so— behalf of my family in scotland. how has it gone so badly- behalf of my family in scotland. how has it gone so badly wrong? behalf of my family in scotland. - how has it gone so badly wrong? the snp has been known for its party discipline and stability. you've been a key figure for a long time. where has it all gone wrong? they have a sleep in challenges with theissues they have a sleep in challenges with the issues you have set out, and also, we have got to recognise the importance of delivering on the priorities of the public. —— there have obviously been challenges. when i look at the issues we have delivered on, we have recently expanded or doubled the availability of early learning and child care for families in our country, so that every three—year—old and four—year—old, and for many two—year—olds, the access to full—time early learning and child care, which saves a family about £5,500 a year per child, and it is policies like that that make a real difference to the lives of children and young people and families in our country, that we deliver on. we have established a scottish trial payment, which puts about £26 every week into the family, into households of low income families to try to help with the cost of living and to eradicate child poverty. these are examples where i think the snp is delivering to individuals and to households around the country to make that difference, and we have got to do more of that as we take forward our agenda to transform lives within scotland. a question from the woman at the back. it appears the snp has become a bit complacent. — it appears the snp has become a bit complacent. given— it appears the snp has become a bit complacent, given these _ it appears the snp has become a bit complacent, given these scandals. i it appears the snp has become a bit i complacent, given these scandals. do you think— complacent, given these scandals. do you think that — complacent, given these scandals. do you think that is— complacent, given these scandals. do you think that is because _ complacent, given these scandals. do you think that is because of— complacent, given these scandals. do you think that is because of the - you think that is because of the one-party— you think that is because of the one—party domination- you think that is because of the one—party domination of- you think that is because of the one—party domination of the i you think that is because of the i one—party domination of the snp you think that is because of the - one—party domination of the snp in the last— one—party domination of the snp in the last ten— one—party domination of the snp in the last ten years, _ one—party domination of the snp in the last ten years, and _ one—party domination of the snp in the last ten years, and should - one—party domination of the snp in| the last ten years, and should there be some _ the last ten years, and should there be some change _ the last ten years, and should there be some change in— the last ten years, and should there be some change in the _ the last ten years, and should there be some change in the electoral- be some change in the electoral system — be some change in the electoral system to— be some change in the electoral system to allow— be some change in the electoral system to allow for— be some change in the electoral system to allow for more - be some change in the electoral. system to allow for more opinions that might — system to allow for more opinions that might challenge _ system to allow for more opinions that might challenge the - system to allow for more opinions that might challenge the snp- system to allow for more opinions that might challenge the snp and| that might challenge the snp and prevent— that might challenge the snp and prevent this — that might challenge the snp and prevent this complacency? - prevent this complacency? well. _ prevent this complacency? well, actually, _ prevent this complacency? well, actually, if— prevent this complacency? well, actually, if you - prevent this complacency? well, actually, if you lookl prevent this complacency? i well, actually, if you look at prevent this complacency? - well, actually, if you look at the history of the snp government over 17 years, the first four years, we were a minority government, very much so. for a further five years, we were a majority government, and for the next five, a minority, and we are back to being a minority government again, so we actually don't have that overall control of the political system. you know, if i want to get a law passed by the scottish parliament, i can'tjust instruct my colleagues to vote for it, i have got to win friends and allies. so on every piece of legislation, on every budget, we have got to win friends and allies, and one thing i think... but why do you think the woman back their... what is your name?— their... what is your name? grace. wh do their... what is your name? grace. why do you — their. .. what is your name? grace. why do you think— their... what is your name? grace. why do you think what _ their... what is your name? grace. why do you think what she - their... what is your name? grace. why do you think what she is - their... what is your name? grace. | why do you think what she is getting from the snp is complacency? what i from the snp is complacency? what i want to make — from the snp is complacency? what i want to make sure _ from the snp is complacency? what i want to make sure as _ from the snp is complacency? what i want to make sure as we _ from the snp is complacency? what i want to make sure as we don't - from the snp is complacency? what i want to make sure as we don't have l want to make sure as we don't have any whiff of that whatsoever and we work hard, as i answered andrew's question, to win the trust and confidence of the public. one thing that really worries me about politics today, and i accept that i might actually have played a part in creating this, is the polarisation of debate, and i think there is a need to bring people together. i became first ministerjust six and a half weeks ago, and i pledge that i would reach out beyond my party to other parties and other opinions to try to wring people together, because i think what is wrong with our society today is that we are not together, we are polarised, and we need to bring people back together again. k. | applause -- 0k. applause —— ok. let's take a question from sam. where are you? are you going to carry on with independence _ are you going to carry on with independence referenda - are you going to carry on with independence referenda until| are you going to carry on with - independence referenda until you get the answer— independence referenda until you get the answer you — independence referenda until you get the answer you want? _ the answer you want? thank— the answer you want? thank you. _ the answer you want? thank you, sam. - the answeryou want? thank you, sam. no, | the answer you want? . thank you, sam. no, no, the answer you want? - thank you, sam. no, no, very the answer you want? _ thank you, sam. no, no, very qood the answer you want? _ thank you, sam. no, no, very good to hear your question. are you going to carry on with independence referenda until you get the answer you want? thank you for your question, sam, and i accept it is an important question, and one that is on the minds of many people. i think politics nowadays needs to have people setting out what they believe in, and i honestly believe that scotland would be a stronger country, and would have better prospects, if we were an independent country. that has been my... applause that has been my honest view over my entire adult life, but i am a democrat, so i accept that we can't be an independent country until the people of scotland vote for us to be an independent country, and i do believe in the right of the people of scotland to decide their own future. i think generally, there is an accepted view that self—determination, the right of people to decide how they should be governed, is an important political principle, and i think what politics today needs is politicians who will set out what they actually believe in, set it out openly to the public, and ask the public to judge. in, set it out openly to the public, and ask the public tojudge. one of the frustrations i have got is that today in the scottish parliament, there is a majority in favour of there is a majority in favour of there being a referendum on independence, and that scotland should be an independent country, but we are not being permitted by the united kingdom government to put that idea and that concept to the public, and i think we should have the right to do so. applause well, obviously, there was a referendum in 201a, which you lost. you now say in your manifesto independence is front and centre, that if you win the majority of scottish seats at westminster, i think it is 29, that you will consider a mandate to ask the uk government for another way to negotiate independence. i assume that the opposite also applies, that if you do not get the majority of 29, you will also take that as a democratic decision that you should not be pursuing independence? what i want to make sure, and it is related to the point i answered some moments ago, i want to make sure the legitimate decisions of the scottish electorate in 2021, when the scottish parliament was elected with a majority of members favouring independence and a referendum, that that could be respected by the uk. but in your manifesto, you are talking about this election of optional you can't say on one hand, if we win a majority of scottish seats at westminster, that gives us the green light to seek another referendum, but if you don't win them, surely that is giving you the red light? but i don't you saying that. what i want is people in scotland to confidently vote for the snp to make sure we can turn that manifesto into a reality. but just answer question, a reality. butjust answer question, john. and we could actually bring... we could deliver on what people ask the parliament to deliver on in 2021. and if you did not get the majority of scottish seats at westminster, what does that tell you about your mandate to ask for another referendum? what i want to do during the election campaign is to encourage people to vote for the snp... so you are not answering that question. to enable us to deliver on that policy commitment which is right at the heart of our manifesto. are you going to answer, or not? i want people to vote for the snp to... l- to... i think that is a no. you have got a question here. let's get a microphone to you. i am a scottish person living down in england — i am a scottish person living down in england i— i am a scottish person living down in england. i work— i am a scottish person living down in england. i work for— i am a scottish person living down in england. i work for the - in england. i work for the manufacturing _ in england. i work for the manufacturing centre, i in england. i work for the - manufacturing centre, which, you know. _ manufacturing centre, which, you know. at— manufacturing centre, which, you know. at the _ manufacturing centre, which, you know, at the moment _ manufacturing centre, which, you know, at the moment is - manufacturing centre, which, youl know, at the moment is struggling for growth — know, at the moment is struggling for growth all _ know, at the moment is struggling for growth all the _ know, at the moment is struggling for growth all the way _ know, at the moment is struggling for growth all the way through - know, at the moment is struggling for growth all the way through the | for growth all the way through the uk. for growth all the way through the uk -- _ for growth all the way through the uk. —— manufacturing _ for growth all the way through the uk. —— manufacturing sector. - for growth all the way through the uk. —— manufacturing sector. it. uk. —— manufacturing sector. it seems— uk. —— manufacturing sector. it seems to— uk. —— manufacturing sector. it seems to me _ uk. —— manufacturing sector. it seems to me with _ uk. —— manufacturing sector. it seems to me with the - uk. —— manufacturing sector. it seems to me with the snp - uk. —— manufacturing sector. it seems to me with the snp that| uk. —— manufacturing sector. it- seems to me with the snp that every problem _ seems to me with the snp that every problem is. _ seems to me with the snp that every problem is. as— seems to me with the snp that every problem is. as you _ seems to me with the snp that every problem is, as you guys _ seems to me with the snp that every problem is, as you guys keep- seems to me with the snp that every problem is, as you guys keep saying, the road _ problem is, as you guys keep saying, the road leads— problem is, as you guys keep saying, the road leads to _ problem is, as you guys keep saying, the road leads to westminster. - problem is, as you guys keep saying, the road leads to westminster. i- the road leads to westminster. i don't _ the road leads to westminster. i don't believe _ the road leads to westminster. i don't believe that's _ the road leads to westminster. i don't believe that's the - the road leads to westminster. i don't believe that's the case. - the road leads to westminster. i don't believe that's the case. so| don't believe that's the case. so could _ don't believe that's the case. so could you — don't believe that's the case. so could you tell— don't believe that's the case. so could you tell me _ don't believe that's the case. so could you tell me specifically- don't believe that's the case. so l could you tell me specifically what the snp _ could you tell me specifically what the snp would _ could you tell me specifically what the snp would do _ could you tell me specifically what the snp would do to _ could you tell me specifically what the snp would do to support - could you tell me specifically what l the snp would do to support growth in the _ the snp would do to support growth in the manufacturing _ the snp would do to support growth in the manufacturing sector, - the snp would do to support growth in the manufacturing sector, argue, | in the manufacturing sector, argue, as we _ in the manufacturing sector, argue, as we argue — in the manufacturing sector, argue, as we argue in— in the manufacturing sector, argue, as we argue in our— in the manufacturing sector, argue, as we argue in our manifesto, - in the manufacturing sector, argue, as we argue in our manifesto, for. in the manufacturing sector, argue, | as we argue in our manifesto, for us to rejoin _ as we argue in our manifesto, for us to rejoin the — as we argue in our manifesto, for us to rejoin the european _ as we argue in our manifesto, for us to rejoin the european union, - to rejoin the european union, because — to rejoin the european union, because that, _ to rejoin the european union, because that, i— to rejoin the european union, because that, i think, - to rejoin the european union, because that, i think, is- to rejoin the european union, because that, i think, is the l to rejoin the european union, - because that, i think, is the source of the _ because that, i think, is the source of the problems— because that, i think, is the source of the problems in _ because that, i think, is the source of the problems in the _ because that, i think, is the source . of the problems in the manufacturing sector~ _ sector. i applause but given you have to go through a lot of hoops to get there, first of all, securing independence, then you have to get the eu to agree for you to become part of it, i think you want something slightly shorter term? that could be ten years or something. but my point is that there are a couple of big issues in this election campaign that really aren't seeing the light of day, and one of them is the disastrous impact of brexit in the united kingdom economy. and of course, you are free to offer that opinion, but that is not the question you were being asked, so could you answer that question, which is specifically, what with the snp do to boost growth in manufacturing? if i snp do to boost growth in manufacturing?— snp do to boost growth in manufacturing? snp do to boost growth in manufacturin: ? ., ., ., manufacturing? if i look at one of the thins manufacturing? if i look at one of the things we _ manufacturing? if i look at one of the things we are _ manufacturing? if i look at one of the things we are taking - manufacturing? if i look at one of the things we are taking forward l manufacturing? if i look at one of| the things we are taking forward in scotland today, we have got what is called a tech scaler programme, designed to take new emerging companies that have emerged from our universities and partnerships with business to essentially support them and fuelled the growth of those individual companies. what that is about doing is taking new, fresh, dynamic ideas that our views on the future. things are happening today in scotland. we have a facility and in scotland. we have a facility and in shetland which will start launching satellites by rocket into space. if you had said to me a few years ago, scotland will be a satellite launching country, i would have said, ok, that is quite a big ask. but it will be interesting if it happens. it is now happening for some so innovation that comes from our universities can be fuelled with public investment, and that's what the scottish government is doing to support that activity, to strengthen the manufacturing base of scotland, and to strengthen the economic opportunities we face. does that answer your question? not really, because the timescale to me is— not really, because the timescale to me is a _ not really, because the timescale to me is a bit— not really, because the timescale to me is a bit like— not really, because the timescale to me is a bit like the _ not really, because the timescale to me is a bit like the rockets- not really, because the timescale to me is a bit like the rockets going. me is a bit like the rockets going up me is a bit like the rockets going up to— me is a bit like the rockets going up to space _ me is a bit like the rockets going upto space it— me is a bit like the rockets going up to space. it seems— me is a bit like the rockets going up to space. it seems to - me is a bit like the rockets going up to space. it seems to me... i up to space. it seems to me... but— up to space. it seems to me... but that— up to space. it seems to me... but that is— up to space. it seems to me... but that is happening - up to space. it seems to me... but that is happening now. - but that is happening now. yes, but you can take one example in one situation. — yes, but you can take one example in one situation, but— yes, but you can take one example in one situation, but at _ yes, but you can take one example in one situation, but at the _ yes, but you can take one example in one situation, but at the end - yes, but you can take one example in one situation, but at the end of- yes, but you can take one example in one situation, but at the end of the l one situation, but at the end of the day, one situation, but at the end of the day. we _ one situation, but at the end of the day. we all— one situation, but at the end of the day. we all know— one situation, but at the end of the day, we all know how _ one situation, but at the end of the day, we all know how much - one situation, but at the end of the day, we all know how much we - one situation, but at the end of the day, we all know how much we are| one situation, but at the end of the . day, we all know how much we are all paid. _ day, we all know how much we are all paid. and _ day, we all know how much we are all paid. and time. — day, we all know how much we are all paid, and time, and _ day, we all know how much we are all paid, and time, and money, - day, we all know how much we are all paid, and time, and money, from- day, we all know how much we are all paid, and time, and money, from a. paid, and time, and money, from a brexit— paid, and time, and money, from a brexit perspective, _ paid, and time, and money, from a brexit perspective, so— paid, and time, and money, from a brexit perspective, so you - paid, and time, and money, from a brexit perspective, so you are - brexit perspective, so you are talking — brexit perspective, so you are talking about _ brexit perspective, so you are talking about going _ brexit perspective, so you are talking about going into - brexit perspective, so you are talking about going into that i talking about going into that situation _ talking about going into that situation for— talking about going into that situation for the _ talking about going into that. situation for the manufacturing sector. — situation for the manufacturing sector. it — situation for the manufacturing sector. it is _ situation for the manufacturing sector, it isjust— situation for the manufacturing sector, it isjust not— situation for the manufacturing sector, it isjust not helpful. i sector, it isjust not helpful. people _ sector, it isjust not helpful. pecple will_ sector, it isjust not helpful. people will take _ sector, it isjust not helpful. people will take a _ sector, it isjust not helpful. people will take a breath . sector, it isjust not helpful. people will take a breath at| sector, it isjust not helpful. - people will take a breath at that, and think _ and think... shall- and think... shall | - and think... shall i take| and think... - shall i take another and think... — shall i take another question? there are lots of other westerns. the man here in the green shirt. good evening, john. as a long—term swimmer— good evening, john. as a long—term swporter of — good evening, john. as a long—term surlporter of both _ good evening, john. as a long—term supporter of both your— good evening, john. as a long—term supporter of both your party - good evening, john. as a long—term supporter of both your party and - supporter of both your party and independence, _ supporter of both your party and independence, you _ supporter of both your party and independence, you have - supporter of both your party and independence, you have just - supporter of both your party and i independence, you have just said supporter of both your party and - independence, you have just said two minutes_ independence, you have just said two minutes ago— independence, you have just said two minutes ago you _ independence, you have just said two minutes ago you want _ independence, you have just said two minutes ago you want to _ independence, you have just said two minutes ago you want to give - independence, you have just said two minutes ago you want to give us - independence, you have just said two minutes ago you want to give us the. minutes ago you want to give us the confidence _ minutes ago you want to give us the confidence to — minutes ago you want to give us the confidence to vote _ minutes ago you want to give us the confidence to vote for _ minutes ago you want to give us the confidence to vote for you. - minutes ago you want to give us the confidence to vote for you. how - minutes ago you want to give us the confidence to vote for you. how can| confidence to vote for you. how can you convince — confidence to vote for you. how can you convince me _ confidence to vote for you. how can you convince me that _ confidence to vote for you. how can you convince me that you _ confidence to vote for you. how can you convince me that you can - confidence to vote for you. how can you convince me that you can lead i confidence to vote for you. how can| you convince me that you can lead a successfui— you convince me that you can lead a successful independent _ you convince me that you can lead a successful independent nation - you convince me that you can lead a successful independent nation after| successful independent nation after it appears— successful independent nation after it appears the — successful independent nation after it appears the party— successful independent nation after it appears the party has _ successful independent nation after it appears the party has destroyed i it appears the party has destroyed itself— it appears the party has destroyed itself from — it appears the party has destroyed itself from the _ it appears the party has destroyed itself from the top—down, - it appears the party has destroyed itself from the top—down, not - it appears the party has destroyed i itself from the top—down, not from bottom _ itself from the top—down, not from bottom up? — bottom up? let - bottom up? let me - bottom up? - let me perhaps set bottom up? — let me perhaps set out some of the things we have done. since we came to office, for example, gdp per capita in scotland, the growth of the economy, has been faster in scotland and the rest of the uk. productivity in the scottish economy has grown faster under the snp government than in the rest of the united kingdom. iset government than in the rest of the united kingdom. i set out a moment to go the measures we are taking to tackle child poverty, which is keeping 100,000 children out of poverty in scotland today. we have seen also a significant expansion of early learning and child care, which is delivering the best outcome for children and young people in our society. so i would say there is a whole range of decisions that have been made in scotland that are good for scotland, and that is an illustration of what an independent country can do if we have the powers, the broader range of powers, because i accept we need to improve economic performance in scotland, we need to eradicate poverty, child poverty within our society, and we can only do that if we have the broader range of powers. and we have demonstrated with the limited powers we have got how we can make a difference. 0n difference. on that point, let's hear a question from tina greenwood. keep your hands up from tina greenwood. keep your hands up if you want to ask a question, because i will come to you later. tina? if because i will come to you later. tina? ., ., , tina? if no more funding comes throu~h tina? if no more funding comes through from — tina? if no more funding comes through from westminster, - tina? if no more funding comes| through from westminster, how tina? if no more funding comes - through from westminster, how will you fix— through from westminster, how will you fix the _ through from westminster, how will you fix the nhs— through from westminster, how will you fix the nhs in— through from westminster, how will you fix the nhs in scotland? - you fix the nhs in scotland? the nhs, _ you fix the nhs in scotland? the nhs, forgive _ you fix the nhs in scotland? the nhs, forgive me, - you fix the nhs in scotland? the nhs, forgive me, john, | you fix the nhs in scotland? - the nhs, forgive me, john, just for those south of the border who may not be aware, the nhs is a devolved department in scotland, meaning you control and get a block grant from the uk government overall, but you decide how much you want to spend on the nhs, and just to put that into context, in scotland, just over 7000 people are waiting over two years for treatment. people are waiting over two years fortreatment. in people are waiting over two years for treatment. in england, people are waiting over two years fortreatment. in england, it people are waiting over two years for treatment. in england, it is just under 300. the first point, i would accept, and what to say in response to your question is, i accept there are very significant challenges in the nhs in scotland today, some of that is a product of the impact of covid and the necessity of trying to catch up on cases that were delayed, and we are making headway on the long waits that fiona just put to me in the additional part of the question. so i accept first of all there is a real challenge in the nhs and we need to put more funding into do something about that. now, there are two elements to the funding we have available to us. there is the block grant from westminster, which is affected by the same austerity and spending constraints that affect budgets in england and wales, but there is also the money we can raise in scotland, so we took a decision, and we have taken decisions over the last three or four years, to increase tax on higher earners so we could raise more money to invest in public services. we now have £1.5 billion available to us that we invest in public services that would not be there if we had not taken those decisions. that is an example of how we are using the powers that we have today to try to address the very issue that you fairly put to me about the challenges in the nhs. but the deeper problem we have, and this is a problem i think we share with the rest of the uk, is the long—term effects of 1a years of austerity, and i am not hearing coming out of the uk election debate between the labour party and the conservative party the type of financial solution to the challenges in the nhs that we need to hear, because there isjust not enough money proposed to be invested. in improving the public services of the uk, and that would affect scotland as well. but in a sense, you are asking john swinney to live in the real world, that if there is not... you are nodding. if no more funding comes from westminster, how will you fix it the nhs in scotland, something you are responsible for? we will put in the resources to address the most immediate issues, about long waiting times, for example, and we have put 30 million into address some of those issues. how do you explain the discrepancies? the waiting times are bad in england as well butjust 300 over two years, how is that happening, that it is worse in scotland?— happening, that it is worse in scotland? . , . ., scotland? that is the nature of some ofthe scotland? that is the nature of some of the complex _ scotland? that is the nature of some of the complex health _ scotland? that is the nature of some of the complex health conditions - of the complex health conditions people are experiencing and how they are addressed but there will be other indicators of performance, scotland has the best performing a&e system in the uk and has had for the last ten years, so there will be other aspects of looking at the health service to see how we do things differently and perform better than the rest of the uk. pond better than the rest of the uk. and also examples _ better than the rest of the uk. and also examples of where you do worse. there are areas where we can learn from the rest of the uk, but my point is that the debate in the uk is not a realistic debate about the investment that is required in our public services. i think there is a crisis created by 1a years of austerity and we have to address that. , ., austerity and we have to address that. , . ., . . , , , that. there is a woman with glasses. you said you — that. there is a woman with glasses. you said you want _ that. there is a woman with glasses. you said you want to _ that. there is a woman with glasses. you said you want to bring _ that. there is a woman with glasses. you said you want to bring people in | you said you want to bring people in scotland _ you said you want to bring people in scotland together— you said you want to bring people in scotland together but _ you said you want to bring people in scotland together but how _ you said you want to bring people in scotland together but how do - you said you want to bring people in scotland together but how do you i scotland together but how do you think— scotland together but how do you think you — scotland together but how do you think you can— scotland together but how do you think you can go— scotland together but how do you think you can go about _ scotland together but how do you think you can go about bringing . think you can go about bringing people — think you can go about bringing people in— think you can go about bringing people in scotland _ think you can go about bringing people in scotland together - think you can go about bringing . people in scotland together when think you can go about bringing - people in scotland together when you are campaigning _ people in scotland together when you are campaigning for— people in scotland together when you are campaigning for a _ people in scotland together when you are campaigning for a second - people in scotland together when you are campaigning for a second device i are campaigning for a second device independence — are campaigning for a second device independence referendum? - are campaigning for a second device independence referendum? it- are campaigning for a second device independence referendum?- independence referendum? it about havin: a independence referendum? it about having a democratic— independence referendum? it about having a democratic debate - independence referendum? it about having a democratic debate and - having a democratic debate and coming to those conclusions and having the debate in a respectful fashion and i bring to my politics a respectful contribution about other parties, and i look at politicsjust now, i have been involved in a long time but i've never seen politics in as bad a condition as it is today, it is very fractured, notjust in scotland or the uk, but in a wider sense. it is incumbent on political leaders and especially on me is the first minister of scotland to do everything i can to bring people together by respectful debate and thatis together by respectful debate and that is how i go about my business. the man in the blue shirt. in that is howl go about my business. the man in the blue shirt.— the man in the blue shirt. in 2016 scotland voted _ the man in the blue shirt. in 2016 scotland voted as _ the man in the blue shirt. in 2016 scotland voted as a _ the man in the blue shirt. in 2016 scotland voted as a majority - the man in the blue shirt. in 2016 scotland voted as a majority to i scotland voted as a majority to remain — scotland voted as a majority to remain in — scotland voted as a majority to remain in the _ scotland voted as a majority to remain in the eu, _ scotland voted as a majority to remain in the eu, so— scotland voted as a majority to remain in the eu, so surely- scotland voted as a majority to| remain in the eu, so surely that means— remain in the eu, so surely that means that _ remain in the eu, so surely that means that if _ remain in the eu, so surely that means that if that _ remain in the eu, so surely that means that if that is _ remain in the eu, so surely that means that if that is the - remain in the eu, so surely that means that if that is the will- remain in the eu, so surely that means that if that is the will ofi means that if that is the will of the scottish— means that if that is the will of the scottish people _ means that if that is the will of the scottish people to- means that if that is the will of the scottish people to remaini means that if that is the will of. the scottish people to remain in means that if that is the will of- the scottish people to remain in the eu that _ the scottish people to remain in the eu that we — the scottish people to remain in the eu that we should _ the scottish people to remain in the eu that we should be _ the scottish people to remain in the eu that we should be allowed - the scottish people to remain in the i eu that we should be allowed another referendum _ eu that we should be allowed another referendum on— eu that we should be allowed another referendum on freedom _ eu that we should be allowed another referendum on freedom of _ eu that we should be allowed another referendum on freedom of movement and the _ referendum on freedom of movement and the customs _ referendum on freedom of movement and the customs union— referendum on freedom of movement and the customs union or— referendum on freedom of movement and the customs union or even - referendum on freedom of movement and the customs union or even if- referendum on freedom of movement and the customs union or even if it. and the customs union or even if it is the _ and the customs union or even if it is the road — and the customs union or even if it is the road to— and the customs union or even if it is the road to rejoining _ and the customs union or even if it is the road to rejoining the - and the customs union or even if it is the road to rejoining the eu, - is the road to rejoining the eu, independence, _ is the road to rejoining the eu, independence, because - is the road to rejoining the eu, independence, because that i is the road to rejoining the eu, independence, because that is| is the road to rejoining the eu, - independence, because that is what scotland _ independence, because that is what scotland wants? _ independence, because that is what scotland wants? lt— independence, because that is what scotland wants? [it is _ independence, because that is what scotland wants?— scotland wants? it is a very good oint scotland wants? it is a very good point because — scotland wants? it is a very good point because in _ scotland wants? it is a very good point because in 2016 _ scotland wants? it is a very good point because in 2016 scotland . scotland wants? it is a very good - point because in 2016 scotland voted emphatically to stay in the eu and one of the things we were told in the 2014 independence referendum in scotland is that our eu membership was guaranteed by voting no to independence, and two years later the opposite of what was promised actually came to pass. so, for me, thatis actually came to pass. so, for me, that is a very very material change in circumstances that merits another referendum on the question of independence because one of the fundamental building blocks of the arguments against independence was about the continuity of eu membership and we have lost that and the people in scotland are suffering because of the absence of freedom of movement, the absence of access to the single market, the absence of access to the customs union, these things are undermining our economy and our public services in scotland and our public services in scotland and the sooner we can get back into the eu, in my view, the better. applause now we have a question from henry. with scotland leading - in wind and marine energy, some of the best, so why- is your government backtracking by scrapping targets _ and approving new oil licences? why would you not double down on that as _ why would you not double down on that as a _ why would you not double down on that as a nation _ why would you not double down on that as a nation when _ why would you not double down on that as a nation when you - why would you not double down on that as a nation when you are - why would you not double down on that as a nation when you are such| why would you not double down oni that as a nation when you are such a world _ that as a nation when you are such a world leader? — that as a nation when you are such a world leader? you _ that as a nation when you are such a world leader?— world leader? you say you are going to be judged — world leader? you say you are going to be judged on _ world leader? you say you are going to be judged on whether _ world leader? you say you are going to be judged on whether they - world leader? you say you are going to be judged on whether they are i to be judged on whether they are compatible with your climate change goals? compatible with your climate change coals? , ., compatible with your climate change coals? , . . , compatible with your climate change uoals? , ., .,, ., , , ., goals? yes, that has always been our osition, goals? yes, that has always been our position. any — goals? yes, that has always been our position. any new _ goals? yes, that has always been our position, any new licences _ goals? yes, that has always been our position, any new licences have - goals? yes, that has always been our position, any new licences have got l position, any new licences have got to be ones that pass the climate assessment before they can be approved and that needs to be a rigorous process. you approved and that needs to be a rigorous process.— rigorous process. you have the climate change _ rigorous process. you have the climate change committee - rigorous process. you have the i climate change committee saying expansion of fossil fuel production is not in line with net zero. global scientists the world over at say there is no way that you can have new oil wells and gas drilling that is compatible with our climate change goals. the paris agreement as well. how do you think they can be? the committee of climate change do accept they will be a necessity to use fossil fuels and oil and gas for some time to come.— use fossil fuels and oil and gas for some time to come. existing but they are not recommending _ some time to come. existing but they are not recommending we _ some time to come. existing but they are not recommending we drill- some time to come. existing but they are not recommending we drill new i are not recommending we drill new oil wells. , ., are not recommending we drill new oilwells. , ., , , , oilwells. the question is, because we have a multiplicity _ oilwells. the question is, because we have a multiplicity of— oilwells. the question is, because we have a multiplicity of issues - oilwells. the question is, because we have a multiplicity of issues to | we have a multiplicity of issues to deal with about energy security and the journey to net zero, and the 1.1 would make, the key point i would make, thejourney would make, the key point i would make, the journey to would make, the key point i would make, thejourney to net would make, the key point i would make, the journey to net zero would make, the key point i would make, thejourney to net zero is inescapable and we have got to do it for the sake of the planet. but the judgments we have got to make have got to be made on a case—by—case basis where we explore and examine whether any new activity could be compatible with our objectives on climate change. haifa compatible with our ob'ectives on climate changeh climate change. how could it ever be? if, for— climate change. how could it ever be? if, for example, _ climate change. how could it ever be? if, for example, it _ climate change. how could it ever be? if, for example, it passed - climate change. how could it ever| be? if, for example, it passed the assessment _ be? if, for example, it passed the assessment in _ be? if, for example, it passed the assessment in relation _ be? if, for example, it passed the assessment in relation to - be? if, for example, it passed the assessment in relation to energy i assessment in relation to energy security and also in relation to sourcing alternative products, that that might be a justifiable case, but that would have to be assessed rigorously in a climate compatibility assessment. it rigorously in a climate compatibility assessment. it would be sold on the _ compatibility assessment. it would be sold on the open _ compatibility assessment. it would be sold on the open market - compatibility assessment. it would be sold on the open market so - compatibility assessment. it would be sold on the open market so it . be sold on the open market so it would not make us any more secure? it would take into account all the issues about the utilisation of that oil supply, issues about the utilisation of that oilsupply, if issues about the utilisation of that oil supply, if we use oil as an example, so there would have to be a con assessment to do that. the prime minister said he would authorise a hundred new oil and gas licences, i think that is completely and utterly irresponsible. it is essentially to deny the climate emergency, and i would have nothing to do with that. but what i do want to make sure is that we can work with the oil and gas sector to support it in making the transition to net zero because we will need a lot of the skills in the oil and gas sector to be available to help us with the transition to net zero and that is a key part of how the agenda would be taken forward. you key part of how the agenda would be taken forward-— taken forward. you could say, the line in the — taken forward. you could say, the line in the sand _ taken forward. you could say, the line in the sand is _ taken forward. you could say, the line in the sand is here, _ taken forward. you could say, the line in the sand is here, we - taken forward. you could say, the line in the sand is here, we are i taken forward. you could say, the l line in the sand is here, we are not approving — line in the sand is here, we are not approving new— line in the sand is here, we are not approving new licences? _ line in the sand is here, we are not approving new licences? that- line in the sand is here, we are not approving new licences?— line in the sand is here, we are not approving new licences? that is what our approving new licences? that is what your predecessor _ approving new licences? that is what your predecessor nicola _ approving new licences? that is what your predecessor nicola sturgeon - your predecessor nicola sturgeon said. taste your predecessor nicola sturgeon said. ~ ., , your predecessor nicola sturgeon said. . . , . your predecessor nicola sturgeon said. . , . , ,, said. we are putting a process in lace to said. we are putting a process in place to come — said. we are putting a process in place to come to _ said. we are putting a process in place to come to that _ said. we are putting a process in place to come to thatjudgment, | said. we are putting a process in - place to come to thatjudgment, and throughout all of our answers on this we have said climate compatibility assessments are critical in thatjourney but i want to stress the point of the importance of maintaining the skills base which will help us to transition to net zero because we will need those skills to help us on thatjourney. the will need those skills to help us on that journey-— will need those skills to help us on that 'ourne . ., . that 'ourney. the woman in the green to -. that journey. the woman in the green to -. you that journey. the woman in the green top- you talk— that journey. the woman in the green top. you talk about _ that journey. the woman in the green top. you talk about the _ that journey. the woman in the green top. you talk about the climate - top. you talk about the climate emergency. — top. you talk about the climate emergency. so _ top. you talk about the climate emergency, so what _ top. you talk about the climate emergency, so what role - top. you talk about the climate emergency, so what role will . top. you talk about the climate i emergency, so what role will your government— emergency, so what role will your government play— emergency, so what role will your government play in _ emergency, so what role will your government play in tackling - emergency, so what role will your. government play in tackling climate change _ government play in tackling climate change in _ government play in tackling climate change in the — government play in tackling climate change in the uk_ government play in tackling climate change in the uk and _ government play in tackling climate change in the uk and globally? - government play in tackling climate change in the uk and globally? we| change in the uk and globally? c actually change in the uk and globally? actually engage in a lot of change in the uk and globally?“ actually engage in a lot of dialogue with many southern african countries for example about the loss and damage activity, and we became one of the first funders of a loss and damage programme. at a meeting yesterday with the president of zambia who was in edinburgh, and we were discussing the developments of the scottish zambia joint exchange programme which is heavily focused on improving energy sustainability in zambia, part of the loss and damage work we are undertaking and also part of the international partnership work we are doing. we have a domestic responsibility for tackling climate change, and net zero, but i also accept we have a responsibility to reach to other countries and to work with them and to support them, given the fact that as a developed western european country we have created our fair share of the damage to the planet and we have got to address that in the loss and damage programmes with others. ., , . ., . . others. now christina. you have a ruestion. others. now christina. you have a question. which _ others. now christina. you have a question. which westminster- others. now christina. you have a i question. which westminster leader would be the — question. which westminster leader would be the better— question. which westminster leader would be the better choice - question. which westminster leader would be the better choice for- would be the better choice for scotland. _ would be the better choice for scotland, keir— would be the better choice for scotland, keir starmer- would be the better choice for scotland, keir starmer or- would be the better choice forl scotland, keir starmer or rishi sunak? — scotland, keir starmer or rishi sunak? ~ scotland, keir starmer or rishi sunak?- come - scotland, keir starmer or rishi sunak?- come on, - scotland, keir starmer or rishi | sunak?- come on, john. scotland, keir starmer or rishi - sunak?- come on, john. answer sunak? well... come on, john. answer that one put — sunak? well... come on, john. answer that one put pp — sunak? well... come on, john. answer that one put up you _ sunak? well... come on, john. answer that one put up you are _ sunak? well... come on, john. answer that one put up you are asking - sunak? well... come on, john. answer that one put up you are asking me - sunak? well... come on, john. answer that one put up you are asking me a . that one put up you are asking me a very controversial question. we cannot wait to hear your answer! l cannot wait to hear your answer! i think the conservative government has been a calamity so they cannot be out of office quick enough. applause it is an absolutely racing certainty that the labour party will win the election in england and i hope people in scotland will recognise the importance of having strong snp voices in the house of commons who will argue for decisions to be made in scotland for scotland and put the interest of people in scotland first. ., . . , | interest of people in scotland first. ., . . , idid, first. you did get an answer. i did, first. you did get an answer. i did, first time! — first. you did get an answer. i did, first time! annie _ anyone else with a question? my question is about independence, and how that _ question is about independence, and how that trrings— question is about independence, and how that brings two _ question is about independence, and how that brings two countries - question is about independence, and how that brings two countries apart, | how that brings two countries apart, essentially — how that brings two countries apart, essentially. would _ how that brings two countries apart, essentially. would devolution - how that brings two countries apart, essentially. would devolution of - essentially. would devolution of powers — essentially. would devolution of powers to — essentially. would devolution of powers to a _ essentially. would devolution of powers to a trig _ essentially. would devolution of powers to a big extent - essentially. would devolution of powers to a big extent come - essentially. would devolution of powers to a big extent come up| essentially. would devolution of. powers to a big extent come up be essentially. would devolution of - powers to a big extent come up be an option— powers to a big extent come up be an option instead — powers to a big extent come up be an option instead of— powers to a big extent come up be an option instead of full— powers to a big extent come up be an option instead of full independence? i option instead of full independence? 0ver my— option instead of full independence? 0ver my political _ option instead of full independence? 0ver my political life, _ option instead of full independence? 0ver my political life, a _ option instead of full independence? 0ver my political life, a number- option instead of full independence? 0ver my political life, a number of. over my political life, a number of powers have been devolved, and when i was born the scottish parliament did not exist and i was one of the founding members of a 25 years ago and i have welcomed the development of that scottish parliament and i was also part of a commission that secured more powers for the scottish parliament in 2016 so we have strengthened the powers of parliament. i am strengthened the powers of parliament. lam never going strengthened the powers of parliament. i am never going to say no to more powers for the scottish parliament but what i want to be able to do is to do the things that will transform the lives of people, i want to live in a fairer and more equal country and i want to live in a country that prioritises the improvement of our economy and strengthening the rights and responsibilities of people in our country and i do not think that can be achieved for us in the uk which is why i want scotland to be like denmark or sweden as an independent country got up when you look at those countries, they are more prosperous and more equal, fairer than scotland and the uk, that is a price that people are attracted to in scotland. —— prize. john price that people are attracted to in scotland. -- prize. john swinney, that is your— in scotland. -- prize. john swinney, that is your half _ in scotland. -- prize. john swinney, that is your half an _ in scotland. -- prize. john swinney, that is your half an hour. _ in scotland. -- prize. john swinney, that is your half an hour. i _ in scotland. -- prize. john swinney, that is your half an hour. i think - that is your half an hour. i think you have answered most of your questions, if not all! please can you thank, john swinney. 's we are halfway through and before we welcome keir starmer. on monday we have a question time leaders' specialfrom wales. have a question time leaders' special from wales. then, have a question time leaders' specialfrom wales. then, next thursday, we have the normal question time, with the panel and desk and chairs, from birmingham, we are looking for first—time voters in that audience in particular, so go to the website and apply if that issue. the following night after that, in birmingham, we have another question time special, much like tonight but it will be with the green party co—leader and the reform uk leader nigel farage. interesting noises from the audiences. if you want to be in that audience, go to the website as well. but now back to tonight. now please welcome the leader of the labour party, sir keir starmer. applause thank you very much. okey dokey. let me remind you of the general rules, yourjobis me remind you of the general rules, yourjob is to answer the question and if you do not do it clearly, my job is to keep you to the point. the first question is from emma mitchell. ,., ., ., mitchell. good evening. you criticised — mitchell. good evening. you criticised the _ mitchell. good evening. you criticised the tory _ mitchell. good evening. you criticised the tory manifesto mitchell. good evening. you i criticised the tory manifesto as jeremy— criticised the tory manifesto as jeremy corhyn _ criticised the tory manifesto as jeremy corbyn like, _ criticised the tory manifesto as jeremy corbyn like, anything. criticised the tory manifesto as i jeremy corbyn like, anything you want _ jeremy corbyn like, anything you want can— jeremy corbyn like, anything you want can go— jeremy corbyn like, anything you want can go in— jeremy corbyn like, anything you want can go in it, _ jeremy corbyn like, anything you want can go in it, nothing - jeremy corbyn like, anything you want can go in it, nothing is - want can go in it, nothing is costed~ _ want can go in it, nothing is costed~ why— want can go in it, nothing is costed. why did _ want can go in it, nothing is costed. why did you - want can go in it, nothing is costed. why did you back. want can go in it, nothing is| costed. why did you back his original— costed. why did you back his original manifesto— costed. why did you back his original manifesto in- costed. why did you back his original manifesto in 2019? i costed. why did you back his original manifesto in 2019? [j original manifesto in 2019? campaigned then for the original manifesto in 2019?- campaigned then for the labour original manifesto in 2019?_ campaigned then for the labour party as i am always campaigning for the labour party, and i wanted good colleagues to be returned, to parliament, and i knew we had a job and a half to do because i did not think we were going to win that election, and afterwards, because we got the worst result since 1935, the electorate clearly gave their verdict and we did a lot of work on how we needed to change the party and that started with what went wrong. and in all the analysis we did, people said they quite like some of what was in their manifesto, but they thought it was too much and they wanted to see something that was fully costed and fully funded. and that is why my manifesto going forward to this election is fully costed and funded and everything we say we are going to do, we say how much it is going to cost, and where the money is coming from, because thatis the money is coming from, because that is the kind of stability that we need. the other thing that has happened is liz truss put forward a number of unfunded commitments in her case tax cuts, and look what it did to the economy, and there will be people in the audience, people watching, who are still paying the price for that and i said it about rishi sunak�*s manifesto because he has now included unfunded commitments, so he is repeating the mistake, that is a political point going into an election, i grant you, but also important because if you lose control of the economy, it is ordinary people who pay the price, so many people still pay more on their mortgages for example. so that is why i said it because it was overloaded and it was not fully funded and i think that especially now in 2024, the foundation is economic stability. obviously, you're back to that manifesto. you also said in 2019 thatjeremy corbett would make a great prime minister. you thought you were not going to win that election. ——jeremy you were not going to win that election. —— jeremy corbyn. you were not going to win that election. ——jeremy corbyn. did you were not going to win that election. —— jeremy corbyn. did you have yourfingers election. —— jeremy corbyn. did you have your fingers crossed behind your back? it have your fingers crossed behind your back?— your back? it was not a question that arose. _ your back? it was not a question that arose, because _ your back? it was not a question that arose, because i _ your back? it was not a question that arose, because i did - your back? it was not a question that arose, because i did not. your back? it was not a question l that arose, because i did not think we were going to win the election. but we all heard you saying he would be a great prime minister. that was your way of telling the people here, vote for him. did your way of telling the people here, vote for him-— your way of telling the people here, vote for him. did you not mean that? i was vote for him. did you not mean that? l was campaigning — vote for him. did you not mean that? i was campaigning for— vote for him. did you not mean that? i was campaigning for the _ vote for him. did you not mean that? i was campaigning for the labour- i was campaigning for the labour party, and i'm glad i did. but you also campaigned _ party, and i'm glad i did. but you also campaigned for _ party, and i'm glad i did. but you also campaigned forjeremy - party, and i'm glad i did. but you i also campaigned forjeremy corbyn party, and i'm glad i did. but you - also campaigned forjeremy corbyn to be prime minister. l also campaigned forjeremy corbyn to be prime minister.— be prime minister. i was campaigning for the be prime minister. ! was campaigning forthe labour— be prime minister. i was campaigning for the labour party. _ be prime minister. i was campaigning for the labour party. i _ be prime minister. i was campaigning for the labour party. i was _ be prime minister. i was campaigning for the labour party. i was a - be prime minister. i was campaigning for the labour party. i was a labour l for the labour party. i was a labour politician, they wanted to be re—elected and they wanted good colleagues to be re—elected. some of the people around the shadow cabinet table were people whose seats were saved because we campaigned hard for the labour party because ofjust answer this yes or no. the labour party because of 'ust answer this yes or no.�* the labour party because of 'ust answer this yes or no. when you said jeremy corbyn _ answer this yes or no. when you said jeremy corbyn would _ answer this yes or no. when you said jeremy corbyn would make _ answer this yes or no. when you said jeremy corbyn would make a - answer this yes or no. when you said jeremy corbyn would make a good i jeremy corbyn would make a good prime minister, did you mean it? he would be a better prime minister... laughter look what we got, borisjohnson. a man who made massive promises, didn't keep them, and had to leave parliament in disgrace was that you are still not answering the question. are still not answering the question-— are still not answering the ruestion. , ., ~ ., are still not answering the cuestion. , ., ~ ., . ,, question. do you think he would make a treat, question. do you think he would make a great. rrot — question. do you think he would make a great. rrot even _ question. do you think he would make a great, not even just _ question. do you think he would make a great, not even just a _ question. do you think he would make a great, not even just a good, - question. do you think he would make a great, not even just a good, prime i a great, not evenjust a good, prime minister? i don't think we were in a position to win that election. that i don't think we were in a position to win that election.— i don't think we were in a position to win that election. that is not an answer. but the more preparation we have done now, the more convinced i am about that. where are you, emma? what do you think? i am not convinced. it leaves me with— i am not convinced. it leaves me with the — i am not convinced. it leaves me with the same _ i am not convinced. it leaves me with the same question - i am not convinced. it leaves me with the same question about i with the same question about integrity— with the same question about integrity and _ with the same question about integrity and trust _ with the same question about integrity and trust i _ with the same question about integrity and trust i had - with the same question about integrity and trust i had with. with the same question about i integrity and trust i had with the clown— integrity and trust i had with the clown called _ integrity and trust i had with the clown called boris _ integrity and trust i had with the clown called boris johnson, i integrity and trust i had with the clown called borisjohnson, and| clown called borisjohnson, and alsom — clown called boris johnson, and also... �* ., clown called boris johnson, and also... ., ., _ also... don't hold back, obviously! laughter — laughter i would like to vote for someone that i_ i would like to vote for someone that i can — i would like to vote for someone that i can trust. _ that i can trust. so _ that i can trust. so you - that i can trust. so you are i that i can trust. - so you are undecided at that i can trust. _ so you are undecided at the that . trust. — so you are undecided at the moment? yes, i am. ., , so you are undecided at the moment? yes, i am. ., ., so you are undecided at the moment? yes, i am. ., . i. ., so you are undecided at the moment? yes, i am. ., . i. . ., yes, i am. has what you have heard from keir starmer _ yes, i am. has what you have heard from keir starmer persuaded i yes, i am. has what you have heard from keir starmer persuaded you i yes, i am. has what you have heard from keir starmer persuaded you atj from keir starmer persuaded you at all? we have onlyjust started, obviously, but you asked the first question. i obviously, but you asked the first ruestion. . ., question. i might have to give him the next 20 _ question. i might have to give him the next 20 minutes! _ the next 20 minutes! let's _ the next 20 minutes! let's have _ the next 20 minutes! let's have another, i the next 20 minutes! i let's have another, then! the next 20 minutes! - let's have another, then! alice the next 20 minutes! _ let's have another, then! alice tai, where are you? good evening. —— alistair how can you increase — good evening. —— alistair how can you increase spending _ good evening. —— alistair how can you increase spending in - good evening. —— alistair how can you increase spending in the i good evening. —— alistair how can you increase spending in the care| you increase spending in the care system, — you increase spending in the care system, defence _ you increase spending in the care system, defence and _ you increase spending in the care system, defence and the - you increase spending in the care system, defence and the nhs i you increase spending in the care i system, defence and the nhs when you increase spending in the care - system, defence and the nhs when you promise _ system, defence and the nhs when you promise not— system, defence and the nhs when you promise not to — system, defence and the nhs when you promise not to increase _ system, defence and the nhs when you promise not to increase taxation? - promise not to increase taxation? in promise not to increase taxation? in relation— promise not to increase taxation? in relation to _ promise not to increase taxation? in relation to taxation, _ promise not to increase taxation? in relation to taxation, i— promise not to increase taxation? in relation to taxation, i need i promise not to increase taxation? in relation to taxation, i need to i in relation to taxation, i need to be really clear. we are not going to increase income tax, national insurance or vat, and the reason for thatis insurance or vat, and the reason for that is because i think with the tax burden being as high as it is, and a cost of living crisis, that is the wrong thing to do, particularly for working people, so we're not going to do that. we will put some immediate money into our public services. i ran a public service for five years. i believe in our public services and know they need to be properly funded, so we will put money the nhs straight away. the purpose of that will be to allow us to make 40,000 extra appointments and operations every week. that is 2 million a year extra appointments to bring waiting lists down, because it is nearly 8 million now. we have to get it down, that will allow the nhs to be properly... to get back on its feet after making it fit for the future. ~ ., feet after making it fit for the future. ~ . . ,., feet after making it fit for the future. ~ . . . . , future. what about defence? that is also in the question. _ future. what about defence? that is also in the question. where - future. what about defence? that is also in the question. where will i future. what about defence? that is also in the question. where will you| also in the question. where will you find the money for that if you do not increase taxation? defence must be the first priority of any government, defending your country, so we will always make the money available for defence, and as you see at the moment, we live in a particularly volatile world, so we will make the money available for defence, and we will put that extra money into the nhs, and i want to see our public services running properly, and my wife works in the nhs, my mum worked in the nhs, my sister works in the nhs, and to see it in the state that it is in now, where i say it is on its knees, my wife says, no, it is flat on its face, is a complete disgrace after 14 years of this government. we will have to pick it up and put it back on its feet, but also do something else: reform to make it fit for the future. that will require a different, preventative model. i will give one last example. briefly, if you will.- will give one last example. briefly, if you will. went to alder hey children's — briefly, if you will. went to alder hey children's which _ briefly, if you will. went to alder hey children's which some i briefly, if you will. went to alder| hey children's which some people know, a brilliant children's in liverpool, where i saw heart surgery, other wards where they do it, and children aged 0—2, very humbling and uplifting. but i also discovered that the single most common reason that 6—10 —year—olds were admitted to the children's hospital there, the same across the country, is to have their teeth taken out because of tooth decay. that is a complete and utter disgrace, so we need to move the model and change the model for the nhs as well. can i gently encourage you to move back... to can i gently encourage you to move back... ., ., . ,, can i gently encourage you to move back- - -_just - can i gently encourage you to move back- - -_just so - can i gently encourage you to move back. . ._just so we i can i gently encourage you to move i back. . ._just so we can back... to move back! just so we can see more clearly _ back... to move back! just so we can see more clearly at _ back... to move back! just so we can see more clearly at home! _ back... to move back! just so we can see more clearly at home! you i see more clearly at home! you obviously play a lot of football, but you are just better lit there. person at the back the pink top? at the moment, tensions with europe are at— at the moment, tensions with europe are at an _ at the moment, tensions with europe are at an all—time _ at the moment, tensions with europe are at an all—time high, _ at the moment, tensions with europe are at an all—time high, with - at the moment, tensions with europe are at an all—time high, with more i are at an all—time high, with more and more — are at an all—time high, with more and more right—wing _ are at an all—time high, with more and more right—wing governments are at an all—time high, with more i and more right—wing governments in europe _ and more right—wing governments in europe how— and more right—wing governments in europe howare— and more right—wing governments in europe. how are you _ and more right—wing governments in europe. how are you going _ and more right—wing governments in europe. how are you going to - europe. how are you going to negotiate — europe. how are you going to negotiate that— europe. how are you going to negotiate that and _ europe. how are you going to negotiate that and make i europe. how are you going to negotiate that and make surej europe. how are you going to i negotiate that and make sure we europe. how are you going to - negotiate that and make sure we have a safe _ negotiate that and make sure we have a safe relationship? _ a safe relationship? with— a safe relationship? with europe, - a safe relationship? with europe, i- a safe relationship? with europe, i am i a safe relationship? - with europe, i am worried a safe relationship? _ with europe, i am worried about some of the tendencies across europe, because i am obviously leading a progressive party, and i think that the answers to the problems we face globally, whether that is climate, whether that is conflict, whether thatis whether that is conflict, whether that is extreme poverty, getting our economy going, are progressive answers to that. if i am elected, i will have to work with all leaders across europe, but i will always make that progressive argument, but in the end, you have to stabilise your economy, get investment into make sure we get the jobs of the future, and take our climate obligations seriously, and not see them as just a sort of challenge we don't want, but as a brilliant opportunity for the next generation ofjobs, and play ourfull part in the scaling conflict. if we are able to get over the line in two weeks' time, we have a platform for that which is really important, if we look across europe. i am genuinely worried by some of the political trends and moves we see. thank you. the woman in the red top. sorry, i will take it back to the nhs — sorry, i will take it back to the nhs i— sorry, i will take it back to the nhs i am _ sorry, i will take it back to the nhs i am a _ sorry, i will take it back to the nhs. i am a nurse, _ sorry, i will take it back to the nhs. i am a nurse, working i sorry, i will take it back to the| nhs. iam a nurse, working on sorry, i will take it back to the i nhs. i am a nurse, working on a sorry, i will take it back to the - nhs. i am a nurse, working on a very trusy— nhs. i am a nurse, working on a very busy surgical — nhs. i am a nurse, working on a very busy surgical admissions _ nhs. i am a nurse, working on a very busy surgical admissions unit. - nhs. i am a nurse, working on a very busy surgical admissions unit. you i busy surgical admissions unit. you io busy surgical admissions unit. you go on _ busy surgical admissions unit. you go on about— busy surgical admissions unit. you go on about the _ busy surgical admissions unit. you go on about the waiting _ busy surgical admissions unit. you go on about the waiting lists - busy surgical admissions unit. you go on about the waiting lists and i go on about the waiting lists and putting _ go on about the waiting lists and putting money— go on about the waiting lists and putting money in. _ go on about the waiting lists and putting money in, but— go on about the waiting lists and putting money in, but how- go on about the waiting lists and putting money in, but how are l go on about the waiting lists and| putting money in, but how are we going _ putting money in, but how are we going to _ putting money in, but how are we going to see — putting money in, but how are we going to see that _ putting money in, but how are we going to see that on _ putting money in, but how are we going to see that on the - putting money in, but how are we going to see that on the ward? i putting money in, but how are we| going to see that on the ward? all putting money in, but how are we i going to see that on the ward? all i can see _ going to see that on the ward? all i can see is, — going to see that on the ward? all i can see is, we _ going to see that on the ward? all i can see is, we have _ going to see that on the ward? all i can see is, we have got— going to see that on the ward? all i can see is, we have got pressure i going to see that on the ward? all i| can see is, we have got pressure all the time, _ can see is, we have got pressure all the time, and — can see is, we have got pressure all the time, and saying _ can see is, we have got pressure all the time, and saying you _ can see is, we have got pressure all the time, and saying you will- can see is, we have got pressure all the time, and saying you will put i the time, and saying you will put more _ the time, and saying you will put more on... — the time, and saying you will put more on... get— the time, and saying you will put more on... get rid _ the time, and saying you will put more on... get rid of— the time, and saying you will put more on... get rid of the - the time, and saying you will put more on... get rid of the waitingi more on... get rid of the waiting list, _ more on... get rid of the waiting list. that— more on... get rid of the waiting list. that is— more on... get rid of the waiting list, that is putting _ more on... get rid of the waiting list, that is putting more - more on... get rid of the waiting. list, that is putting more pressure on the _ list, that is putting more pressure on the staff, — list, that is putting more pressure on the staff, so _ list, that is putting more pressure on the staff, so what _ list, that is putting more pressure on the staff, so what support - list, that is putting more pressure on the staff, so what support will| on the staff, so what support will you give — on the staff, so what support will you give the _ on the staff, so what support will you give the staff _ on the staff, so what support will you give the staff on _ on the staff, so what support will you give the staff on the - on the staff, so what support will you give the staff on the word? l on the staff, so what support willi you give the staff on the word? 50 cu you give the staff on the word? you can treat more patients? yes, yes. the - yes, yes. the first. yes, yes. - the first thing i yes. yes. — the first thing i would say is, we will treat you with respect. i say that because we have a prime minister who, 18 months or so ago, said i'm going to get the waiting lists down, and hold me personally responsible. he has not done that, and now he blames you. he blames nhs staff. we will never do that, because i know how hard you work all the time, in covid in particular, and the waiting list, but we have to take the pressure of the waiting list. that is an ask of staff. i will not say otherwise. because we will not say otherwise. because we will be working evenings and weekends to get those lists down. it will help, because all of the hospitals i have been to say having that waiting list is a real dragon what else we can do. we will pay the staff properly to do it. i am convinced we can do it, by the way, because in saint thomas's in london and one of the leeds hospitals i went to, i met the team is doing this already, because they have decided they cannot have these waiting lists. taste decided they cannot have these waiting lists.— decided they cannot have these waitin: lists. ~ . . , waiting lists. we have a nurse here. are ou waiting lists. we have a nurse here. are you prepared — waiting lists. we have a nurse here. are you prepared to _ waiting lists. we have a nurse here. are you prepared to do _ waiting lists. we have a nurse here. are you prepared to do that? - waiting lists. we have a nurse here. are you prepared to do that? i - waiting lists. we have a nurse here. i are you prepared to do that? i don't work in a big — are you prepared to do that? i don't work in a big hospital— are you prepared to do that? i don't work in a big hospital in _ are you prepared to do that? i don't work in a big hospital in london - are you prepared to do that? i don't work in a big hospital in london or. work in a big hospital in london or leeds, _ work in a big hospital in london or leeds, i_ work in a big hospital in london or leeds, iwork— work in a big hospital in london or leeds, i work in— work in a big hospital in london or leeds, i work in shropshire, - work in a big hospital in london or leeds, i work in shropshire, and l work in a big hospital in london or leeds, i work in shropshire, and i| leeds, i work in shropshire, and i don't _ leeds, i work in shropshire, and i don't think— leeds, i work in shropshire, and i don't think we _ leeds, i work in shropshire, and i don't think we see _ leeds, i work in shropshire, and i don't think we see that _ leeds, i work in shropshire, and i don't think we see that the - leeds, i work in shropshire, and ii don't think we see that the same. leeds, i work in shropshire, and i- don't think we see that the same. we seem _ don't think we see that the same. we seem to _ don't think we see that the same. we seem to get _ don't think we see that the same. we seem to get forgotten _ don't think we see that the same. we seem to get forgotten about more. i seem to get forgotten about more. but it— seem to get forgotten about more. but ifyou _ seem to get forgotten about more. but ifyou are — seem to get forgotten about more. but if you are asked _ seem to get forgotten about more. but if you are asked to _ seem to get forgotten about more. but if you are asked to work, - seem to get forgotten about more. but if you are asked to work, is - seem to get forgotten about more. but if you are asked to work, is the shadow health secretary is suggesting, extra hours to try and treat more patients... suggesting, extra hours to try and treat more patients. . .— suggesting, extra hours to try and treat more patients... yeah, i would love to, if — treat more patients... yeah, i would love to. if you _ treat more patients... yeah, i would love to. if you got — treat more patients... yeah, i would love to, if you got better _ treat more patients... yeah, i would love to, if you got better pay. - love to, if you got better pay. because — love to, if you got better pay. because at _ love to, if you got better pay. because at the _ love to, if you got better pay. because at the minute, - love to, if you got better pay. because at the minute, all. love to, if you got better pay. because at the minute, all i. love to, if you got better pay. . because at the minute, all i see love to, if you got better pay. - because at the minute, all i see is, it att— because at the minute, all i see is, it all goes— because at the minute, all i see is, it all goes on — because at the minute, all i see is, it all goes on agency— because at the minute, all i see is, it all goes on agency staff, - because at the minute, all i see is, it all goes on agency staff, and - because at the minute, all i see is, it all goes on agency staff, and the | it all goes on agency staff, and the staff that _ it all goes on agency staff, and the staff that are — it all goes on agency staff, and the staff that are willing _ it all goes on agency staff, and the staff that are willing to _ it all goes on agency staff, and the staff that are willing to get - it all goes on agency staff, and the staff that are willing to get the - staff that are willing to get the pay, _ staff that are willing to get the pay. and — staff that are willing to get the pay. and we _ staff that are willing to get the pay, and we don't _ staff that are willing to get the pay, and we don't get - staff that are willing to get the pay, and we don't get the - staff that are willing to get the pay, and we don't get the pay. ithink— pay, and we don't get the pay. i think there _ pay, and we don't get the pay. i think there is _ pay, and we don't get the pay. i think there is a _ pay, and we don't get the pay. i think there is a separate - pay, and we don't get the pay. i i think there is a separate issue there. we are quite right —— you are quite right. we need the workforce can begin so we are not using agency staff in the same way, that requires a workforce plan we have also got fully costed to come into effectively be the panel that comes in to give you the support you need. but that will also take time, won't it? will take years.— it? will take years. yes, let me 'ust deal it? will take years. yes, let me just deal with _ it? will take years. yes, let me just deal with this, _ it? will take years. yes, let me just deal with this, because - it? will take years. yes, let me just deal with this, because i i it? will take years. yes, let me i just deal with this, because i have been leader of labour now for four and a half years, and every year, we have had a winter crisis in the nhs. you will be completely familiar with that. what we do is put a sticking plaster on that about january or february, and itjust about limps through to the summer, and then the only guarantee is, you will have another one next year, which will be worse. everyone says everything else will take too long, don't tell me things that will take 3—4 years, and nothing gets done, so we go round and round in circles, not fixing it, you know, sticking plaster politics. it is one of the biggest problems of politics now, which is politicians not being honest about how long it's actually going to take to fix things. actually going to take to fix thins. �* ., , , ., m things. be honest with us now. if we want to train — things. be honest with us now. if we want to train staff, _ things. be honest with us now. if we want to train staff, let's _ things. be honest with us now. if we want to train staff, let's get - want to train staff, let's get started now, not put it off. taste want to train staff, let's get started now, not put it off. we know how bad waiting _ started now, not put it off. we know how bad waiting lists _ started now, not put it off. we know how bad waiting lists are, _ started now, not put it off. we know how bad waiting lists are, and - started now, not put it off. we know how bad waiting lists are, and most | how bad waiting lists are, and most of us are familiar with some of the problems of the nhs, because we'll use it. so when can the people here expect to see an improvement in the nhs and be able to feel they can get an appointment at least within a month, say? should we wait a year, two years, six months? taste month, say? should we wait a year, two years, six months?— month, say? should we wait a year, two years, six months? we will start work on waiting _ two years, six months? we will start work on waiting lists _ two years, six months? we will start work on waiting lists on _ two years, six months? we will start work on waiting lists on day - two years, six months? we will start work on waiting lists on day one - two years, six months? we will start work on waiting lists on day one in i work on waiting lists on day one in government if we are elected. i have set out the big things we want to do in government, but also the things we will do on the first day. in we will do on the first day. in terms of when we can expect to feel an improvement, how long should we wait? taste an improvement, how long should we wait? ~ an improvement, how long should we wait? ., ., , ., wait? we will get operations going as ruickl wait? we will get operations going as quickly as _ wait? we will get operations going as quickly as we — wait? we will get operations going as quickly as we can _ wait? we will get operations going as quickly as we can with - wait? we will get operations going as quickly as we can with the - wait? we will get operations going as quickly as we can with the staff| as quickly as we can with the staff we have got. we have model from the london and leeds hospitals, and we are asking those teams to go round the country talking to other hospitals, may be the one you work in, saying, this is how we have done it, this is what we would recommend. for example, you are saying... well how long will it take? taste for example, you are saying. .. well how long will it take?— how long will it take? we will make a start on that _ how long will it take? we will make a start on that absolutely _ how long will it take? we will make a start on that absolutely straight l a start on that absolutely straight away. a start on that absolutely straight awa . ., . . . . . away. you have made that clear. eve one away. you have made that clear. everyone here — away. you have made that clear. everyone here will _ away. you have made that clear. everyone here will either - away. you have made that clear. everyone here will either be - away. you have made that clear. everyone here will either be on | away. you have made that clear. i everyone here will either be on a waiting list or know someone who is in one. it is incredibly discomfiting, and means people are not able to go to work. ., ., ., ,, ., ., , , ., ., work. you are making an appeal, and we'll hear and — work. you are making an appeal, and we'll hear and i _ work. you are making an appeal, and we'll hear and i understand _ work. you are making an appeal, and we'll hear and i understand it - work. you are making an appeal, and we'll hear and i understand it to - work. you are making an appeal, and we'll hear and i understand it to be . we'll hear and i understand it to be realistic about how long things take. —— and we all hear it. your pledges to get waiting lists down. when can we expect them to come down to a reasonable level? taste when can we expect them to come down to a reasonable level?— to a reasonable level? we will be able to do — to a reasonable level? we will be able to do 2 _ to a reasonable level? we will be able to do 2 million _ to a reasonable level? we will be able to do 2 million a _ to a reasonable level? we will be able to do 2 million a year- to a reasonable level? we will be able to do 2 million a year on - to a reasonable level? we will be i able to do 2 million a year on this model. that means over the course of the parliament, we will get it down and clear the backlog completely. br; and clear the backlog completely. by the end of the parliament? hear- and clear the backlog completely. by the end of the parliament? hear me | the end of the parliament? hear me out, the end of the parliament? hear me out. because — the end of the parliament? hear me out, because this _ the end of the parliament? hear me out, because this is _ the end of the parliament? hear me out, because this is difficult - out, because this is difficult stuff. we did it last time we were in power. the labour government then said, the waiting lists... you have probably all seen those charts where waiting lists are through the roof when tories come out of government. we then bring them down. labour also spent a lot more on the nhs then and you are pledging. taste nhs then and you are pledging. we not nhs then and you are pledging. , got at the lowest ever level and the highest possible satisfaction in the nhs, and i am really proud we did it. if we were still there, we would not be on the problems we are in in this country. let not be on the problems we are in in this country-— this country. let me take another ruestion. question. with all of the backtracking on policies — with all of the backtracking on policies from _ with all of the backtracking on policies from labour, - with all of the backtracking on. policies from labour, especially around — policies from labour, especially around education _ policies from labour, especially around education and _ policies from labour, especially around education and fees - policies from labour, especially around education and fees for l policies from labour, especially - around education and fees for higher education. _ around education and fees for higher education. why— around education and fees for higher education, why should _ around education and fees for higher education, why should anybody - education, why should anybody believe — education, why should anybody believe that _ education, why should anybody believe that you _ education, why should anybody believe that you will _ education, why should anybody believe that you will produce i education, why should anybody believe that you will produce a| believe that you will produce a stable — believe that you will produce a stable and _ believe that you will produce a stable and trustworthy- believe that you will produce a - stable and trustworthy government? thanks— stable and trustworthy government? thanks for— stable and trustworthy government? thanks for the — stable and trustworthy government? thanks for the question _ stable and trustworthy government? thanks for the question on _ stable and trustworthy government? thanks for the question on tuition i thanks for the question on tuition fees. i'm really glad to get it, because... fees. i'm really glad to get it, because- - -_ because... it's not 'ust about tuition fees. i because... it's not 'ust about tuition fees. hang i because... it's notjust about tuition fees. hang on - because... it's notjust about tuition fees. hang on a i because... it's notjust about i tuition fees. hang on a minute. you are talking about u—turns generally? just generally. 50 are talking about u-turns generally? just generally-— just generally. so scrapping the two child benefit — just generally. so scrapping the two child benefit cap, _ just generally. so scrapping the two child benefit cap, scrapping - just generally. so scrapping the two child benefit cap, scrapping tuition i child benefit cap, scrapping tuition fees, you are going to nationalise mail, railand fees, you are going to nationalise mail, rail and water service, fees, you are going to nationalise mail, railand waterservice, having £29 billion for industry... i could go on, but i don't need to. it is more thanjust go on, but i don't need to. it is more than just education. let me address it straight on. tuition fees. students come out with a huge debt around their name. five years ago, i said we should get rid of them. now, five years down the line, the economy has been very badly damaged. we don't have the money to do everything we want to do. we do need to change the tuition fees, but i have a choice to make, which was, of the available money, do i use it for getting rid of tuition fees, which would help students, i accept, tuition fees, which would help students, iaccept, because i know how hard it is, or do i use that money to get our waiting lists down? that's a political decision that i took. i'm not going to do the tuition fees abolition, because i want to put that money to get our nhs back on its feet. that is my decision, a political decision. i accept it is different to the position i put forward five years ago when the damage had not been done is of the economy, but that is the position, because i don't think until we get those waiting lists down, we can afford we had to make the choice about it, and it is a straight choice. i am saying this to you before the election. if you think that waiting lists down is more important than getting rid of tuition fees, if that is the right choice, then you will go along with me. if you say no, i would rather the waiting lists stay where they were, bad luck to all the people on the waiting list, but at least students are not paying fees, that is a different choice. not the one i would take. the other example you put to me is nationalising energy. when we had the energy the roof, both at home and in their businesses, —— when we had the energy crisis and prices went through the roof, i asked my team to mock up their options. one was nationalising energy, which would have cost tens of billions of pounds. that money would have been spent on shareholders to buy them off, and not a penny could have been used to lower the bills. the alternative was a windfall tax on oil and gas companies to cap the bills of many people in this room and across the country and to ensure that people actually survived through the last two years. i took the second choice. i don't think i could have stood here today and said, i didn't do anything about your bills, sorry about that. you have all had to pay a fortune. but i did pay off the shareholders and nationalise energy. i'm a common—sense politician. i work through the issues, and to me, did not make sense to nationalise energy and not get bills down, sol not make sense to nationalise energy and not get bills down, so i decided we should go for getting the bills down. they are political choices. i'm telling you than before the election, and people can make their minds up according to what they think. that's what our audience will do. let's hear a from susan. is that you, susan? given your severe criticism of the conservatives _ given your severe criticism of the conservatives on _ given your severe criticism of the conservatives on the _ given your severe criticism of the conservatives on the topic - given your severe criticism of the conservatives on the topic of i conservatives on the topic of immigration. _ conservatives on the topic of immigration, do— conservatives on the topic of immigration, do you - conservatives on the topic of immigration, do you think i conservatives on the topic of immigration, do you think it| conservatives on the topic of. immigration, do you think it is acceptable _ immigration, do you think it is acceptable at _ immigration, do you think it is acceptable at this _ immigration, do you think it is acceptable at this point - immigration, do you think it is acceptable at this point so i immigration, do you think it is| acceptable at this point so near immigration, do you think it is- acceptable at this point so near the generat— acceptable at this point so near the general election— acceptable at this point so near the general election for— acceptable at this point so near the general election for your _ acceptable at this point so near the general election for your own - acceptable at this point so near the general election for your own partyi general election for your own party not to— general election for your own party not to commit _ general election for your own party not to commit to _ general election for your own party not to commit to specific _ general election for your own party not to commit to specific targets i not to commit to specific targets around _ not to commit to specific targets around this— not to commit to specific targets around this critical— not to commit to specific targets around this critical topic? - around this critical topic? you — around this critical topic? you are _ around this critical topic? you are talking _ around this critical topic? you are talking about i around this critical topic? i you are talking about overall migration?— migration is at record levels under this government, they completely lost control and we need to get it significantly under control and i'm not going to put an arbitrary figure on that because every single politician has put a number on it and has never met that number. we need to get it done. is and has never met that number. we need to get it done.— need to get it done. is that a reason not — need to get it done. is that a reason not to _ need to get it done. is that a reason not to do _ need to get it done. is that a reason not to do it? - need to get it done. is that a reason not to do it? we i need to get it done. is that a | reason not to do it? we want need to get it done. is that a i reason not to do it? we want to get it down significantly _ reason not to do it? we want to get it down significantly and _ reason not to do it? we want to get it down significantly and it - reason not to do it? we want to get it down significantly and it needs i it down significantly and it needs to be balanced so that it works for the economy and for our country, but if we are going to do that we need to understand what the problem is, and the problem at the moment is we do not have the skills we need in this country, so many people are coming on work visas, so we need a skills strategy to make sure we have the skills in this country to make sure that the workforce is available here for the jobs we need doing, sure that the workforce is available here for thejobs we need doing, and one specific example is social care. many people are coming here into social care and working hard, by the way, but that is because we do not have a plan for the staff within social care, my sister is a care worker, and they are on fragmented contracts, poorterms worker, and they are on fragmented contracts, poor terms and conditions and many of them leave, most of them leaving social care go to work in the nhs, because they have a better framework for pay and for progression, so we have got a problem we need to fix it and we would have a fair pay agreement for all care workers. taste would have a fair pay agreement for all care workers.— all care workers. we are getting away from _ all care workers. we are getting away from having _ all care workers. we are getting away from having a _ all care workers. we are getting away from having a thai -- i all care workers. we are getting i away from having a thai -- target on away from having a thai —— target on migration numbers, and if you are not going to have a target, how can you know how many staff you want to have in the nhs, for example, if you do not know how many people you are anticipating in the country, how can you plan correctly? taste anticipating in the country, how can you plan correctly?— you plan correctly? we want to get the number _ you plan correctly? we want to get the number down. _ you plan correctly? we want to get the number down. but _ you plan correctly? we want to get the number down. but if— you plan correctly? we want to get the number down. but if you i you plan correctly? we want to get the number down. but if you have | you plan correctly? we want to get i the number down. but if you have no idea, not the number down. but if you have no idea. not that _ the number down. but if you have no idea, not that you _ the number down. but if you have no idea, not that you are _ the number down. but if you have no idea, not that you are going - the number down. but if you have no idea, not that you are going to i idea, not that you are going to share with us, of how many people you think is a sensible number two coming to the country, how can you possibly plan for public services? we have a plan for the social care workforce with a fair pay agreement, and a plan to build houses. hagar workforce with a fair pay agreement, and a plan to build houses.— and a plan to build houses. how will ou know and a plan to build houses. how will you know how— and a plan to build houses. how will you know how many _ and a plan to build houses. how will you know how many houses - and a plan to build houses. how will you know how many houses you i and a plan to build houses. how will. you know how many houses you need and a plan to build houses. how will- you know how many houses you need to build? taste you know how many houses you need to build? ~ ' ., ., , , build? we need 1.5 million houses because too _ build? we need 1.5 million houses because too many _ build? we need 1.5 million houses because too many people - build? we need 1.5 million houses because too many people are i build? we need 1.5 million houses. because too many people are waiting for a house, and the dream of homeownership is realfor so many people, they want to own their own home and the average age now for somebody to get on the housing ladder is 36 or 37, it is impossible or near on impossible for young people to get their first home and we have got to build more houses which means we have to take tough decisions on things like planning. i was at housing development in york today, houses being bought by locals, but it took 15 years from the plans being submitted to them being built. taste the plans being submitted to them bein: built. ~ . ., the plans being submitted to them bein: built. . ., ., being built. we are far off migration _ being built. we are far off migration targets. - being built. we are far off migration targets. we i being built. we are far off migration targets. we are being built. we are far off i migration targets. we are well being built. we are far off - migration targets. we are well off the target. we need to directly answer the questions being provided by the answer to audience. three three years ago, you criticised your mp, i rosie duffield, for saying only women have a cervix. - you recently backtracked on this. what do you believe now and how do we know you'll stick to it? _ rosie duffield said in 2020, only women have a cervix, and you said thatis women have a cervix, and you said that is something that should not be said, that is not right. fin that is something that should not be said, that is not right.— said, that is not right. on the biolo: , said, that is not right. on the biology. i _ said, that is not right. on the biology. i agree _ said, that is not right. on the biology, i agree with - said, that is not right. on the biology, i agree with what i said, that is not right. on the i biology, i agree with what tony blair said the other day, in relation to men having he needs on the biology, that does not help with the agenda, and some people do not identify with the gender they are born into, and they go through a lot of anxiety and distress in my view in life is to respect and give dignity to everyone, whatever their position, and i will always do that, and i was worried at the time, you referenced that debate, by the way in which the debate was being conducted, because it got very toxic and very divided and very hard line and very divided and very hard line and we lost sight of people in that, so much so that that drags you to a place where we end up as we did end up, with the prime minister of the united kingdom making a trans— joke in parliament when the mother of the murdered trans teenager was watching on. that is a shocking place to get through. i's you want to come back in? , ., , ., through. i's you want to come back in? , ., ., through. i's you want to come back in? , ., , ., ., ., in? the question is also alluding to tolerance and _ in? the question is also alluding to tolerance and having _ in? the question is also alluding to tolerance and having tolerance - in? the question is also alluding to tolerance and having tolerance of. tolerance and having tolerance of different — tolerance and having tolerance of different views _ tolerance and having tolerance of different views and _ tolerance and having tolerance of different views and i _ tolerance and having tolerance of different views and i do - tolerance and having tolerance ofl different views and i do appreciate your comments _ different views and i do appreciate your comments but— different views and i do appreciate your comments but how— different views and i do appreciate your comments but how are - different views and i do appreciate your comments but how are you . different views and i do appreciate - your comments but how are you going to deel— your comments but how are you going to deal with _ your comments but how are you going to deal with when _ your comments but how are you going to deal with when people _ your comments but how are you going to deal with when people in _ your comments but how are you going to deal with when people in your - to deal with when people in your party— to deal with when people in your party are — to deal with when people in your party are going _ to deal with when people in your party are going to— to deal with when people in your party are going to come - to deal with when people in your party are going to come up- to deal with when people in your. party are going to come up against, and it— party are going to come up against, and it is_ party are going to come up against, and it is likely— party are going to come up against, and it is likely you're _ party are going to come up against, and it is likely you're going - party are going to come up against, and it is likely you're going to- party are going to come up against, and it is likely you're going to be i and it is likely you're going to be in government. _ and it is likely you're going to be in government, but— and it is likely you're going to be in government, but as _ and it is likely you're going to be in government, but as john - and it is likely you're going to be . in government, but asjohn swinney mentioned, — in government, but asjohn swinney mentioned, politics _ in government, but asjohn swinney mentioned, politics can _ in government, but asjohn swinney mentioned, politics can become - mentioned, politics can become polarised. — mentioned, politics can become polarised. so _ mentioned, politics can become polarised, so how— mentioned, politics can become polarised, so how are _ mentioned, politics can become polarised, so how are you - mentioned, politics can become polarised, so how are you going mentioned, politics can become . polarised, so how are you going to reduce _ polarised, so how are you going to reduce the — polarised, so how are you going to reduce the effect _ polarised, so how are you going to reduce the effect of _ polarised, so how are you going to reduce the effect of that? - polarised, so how are you going to reduce the effect of that? by- reduce the effect of that? bringing the country reduce the effect of that?“ bringing the country together, reduce the effect of that?_ bringing the country together, and i think this is such an important point because politics is about policies that you put forward at the election, obviously, but also about how you do politics. and how you deal with difficult topics. i want to do two things if we get into government in two weeks' time, and they are about the mindset of government, the first thing is, i want to return a politics to service, because i think it has got far too much into self entitlement, look at the gambling stuff going on today, politicians who think making money is the reason they are in politics, so we need to return to service, and the second thing to go to your question is i want to take the opportunity to bring the country together because what happened in politics in the last ten, 15 years, it has become more and more divided and toxic and everyone is trying to find the difference between us rather than the points of connection and jo cox who tragically was murdered, she was a good friend of mine, we came into parliament at the same time and our children are the same time and our children are the same age, what she said in her maiden speech, we have far more in common than we do which divides us, and that is what i carry and that is what i want to have the opportunity if we get into power in two weeks, to implement, and we can be good at this as a country. in the pandemic people were looking out for each other, food and medicine but also a gentle knock on the door of a neighbour that maybe we did not know very well, to say, are you all right? we are a good tolerant country we are pretty live and let live, if we do not go down the politics of division, and i want to stop that. irate politics of division, and i want to sto that. ~ ., politics of division, and i want to sto that. ~ . ., ., politics of division, and i want to stothat. ., ., ., ., stop that. we have a lot of questions _ stop that. we have a lot of questions. i— stop that. we have a lot of questions. iwill— stop that. we have a lot of questions. i will take - stop that. we have a lot of questions. i will take a - stop that. we have a lot of. questions. i will take a couple stop that. we have a lot of- questions. i will take a couple in a row. ., , ., , ., questions. i will take a couple in a row. ., , ., ., , ., row. you stated in your manifesto that ou row. you stated in your manifesto that you plan _ row. you stated in your manifesto that you plan on _ row. you stated in your manifesto that you plan on removing - row. you stated in your manifesto that you plan on removing the - row. you stated in your manifesto that you plan on removing the tax breeks— that you plan on removing the tax breaks for— that you plan on removing the tax breaks for private _ that you plan on removing the tax breaks for private schools, - that you plan on removing the tax breaks for private schools, but . that you plan on removing the tax breaks for private schools, but doj breaks for private schools, but do you not— breaks for private schools, but do you not think— breaks for private schools, but do you not think this _ breaks for private schools, but do you not think this will— breaks for private schools, but do you not think this will put - breaks for private schools, but do you not think this will put furtherl you not think this will put further stress _ you not think this will put further stress on — you not think this will put further stress on the _ you not think this will put further stress on the already— you not think this will put further stress on the already strained i you not think this will put further. stress on the already strained state system? _ stress on the already strained state s stem? ., ., �* stress on the already strained state system?_ can _ stress on the already strained state system?_ can we - stress on the already strained state system?_ can we take l stress on the already strained state i system?_ can we take two system? no, i don't. can we take two or three? system? no, i don't. can we take two orthree? i — system? no, i don't. can we take two orthree? iwill— system? no, i don't. can we take two or three? i willjust _ system? no, i don't. can we take two or three? i willjust make _ system? no, i don't. can we take two or three? i willjust make a _ system? no, i don't. can we take two or three? i willjust make a note. - system? no, i don't. can we take two or three? i willjust make a note. a i or three? i will 'ust make a note. a lot of talk or three? i willjust make a note. a lot of talk about _ or three? i willjust make a note. a lot of talk about housing _ or three? i willjust make a note. a lot of talk about housing policies i lot of talk about housing policies and helping people to afford their first deposit but one thing that is not taken — first deposit but one thing that is not taken into consideration is how much _ not taken into consideration is how much money is being spent on rent so how we _ much money is being spent on rent so how we are _ much money is being spent on rent so how we are meant to save money? how iactually— how we are meant to save money? how i actually meant to afford to save for a _ i actually meant to afford to save for a deposit if i am paying all of money— for a deposit if i am paying all of money in — for a deposit if i am paying all of money in rent? and the second part, your track— money in rent? and the second part, your track record for paying rent, when _ your track record for paying rent, when would that count you then being able to _ when would that count you then being able to secure a mortgage? because a lot of people, like myself, i pay £8,000 — lot of people, like myself, i pay £8,000 per month each month in rent but i £8,000 per month each month in rent but i can't _ £8,000 per month each month in rent but i can't get a mortgage. in but i can't get a mortgage. private but i can't get a mortgage. in private schools i understand that families around the country work hard and save hard to send their children to private schools because they are aspirational for their children, but all parents are aspirationalfor their children, but all parents are aspirational for their children, every single parent, and i want every single parent, and i want every single parent, and i want every single child where ever they come from, whatever their background, and whichever school they go to to have the same opportunity and at the moment we do not have the basic teachers we need in state secondary schools for things like maths which is really shocking because if you don't have, some people watching will be familiar, with maths being taught by the supply teacher or the pe teacher, but not a designated maths teacher, but not a designated maths teacher which impacts on the lives of people in our state secondary schools because if you do not do well at maths, that inhibits what you can go on to do at a—level and it will affect thejob you can go on to do at a—level and it will affect the job you can get at apprenticeships and that is intolerable so i want to recruit the staff we need to teach core subjects like maths so that every child, for example, has a maths teacher to teach maths. and in order to find that we are going to remove the tax break on private schools, that is a tough decision, not easy, i know how hard people work, but i have got to look across the board and i have got to make sure teachers are there for all children, and make sure everyone has that so wherever you come from and whatever your background, and on the question of rent and mortgages, you are obviously living it, but young people who are working hard, on a reasonably decent wage, but then having to pay a huge part of that for rent over and over again because rents have gone through the roof and housing is not what it should be. roof and housing is not what it should toe-— roof and housing is not what it shouldbe. ., ,, . , should be. you asked specifically what can be _ should be. you asked specifically what can be done _ should be. you asked specifically what can be done to _ should be. you asked specifically what can be done to help - should be. you asked specifically what can be done to help when i should be. you asked specifically - what can be done to help when rents are high, and especially will how much you pay in rent go towards being able to buy a property? will you change the situation? irate being able to buy a property? will you change the situation? we want a low de osit you change the situation? we want a low deposit scheme _ you change the situation? we want a low deposit scheme so _ you change the situation? we want a low deposit scheme so people - you change the situation? we want a low deposit scheme so people who l low deposit scheme so people who have proved they can pay because they are often paying more for their rent than they pay on their mortgage, so the ability to pay is not the issue but they have not got the ability to save for a mortgage because your mum and dad have not got the money. so that is the first thing. the second thing which is also important for those renting, we have to stop the landlords ripping off tenants who are doing, this bidding war, so when you go to a rented property, the landlord does a bidding war, who will pay more until people are paying through the roof, so we have got to end that. harper people are paying through the roof, so we have got to end that. how will ou enter so we have got to end that. how will you enter that? _ so we have got to end that. how will you enter that? how _ so we have got to end that. how will you enter that? how can _ so we have got to end that. how will you enter that? how can you - so we have got to end that. how will you enter that? how can you stop i you enter that? how can you stop that if it is private landlords? irate that if it is private landlords? we can ass that if it is private landlords? - can pass legislation to stop doing that because it is driving rents through the roof and it is not fair. saying, what, they have got to take the lowest bidder? you saying, what, they have got to take the lowest bidder?— saying, what, they have got to take the lowest bidder? you cannot have a landlord, and... _ the lowest bidder? you cannot have a landlord, and... but— the lowest bidder? you cannot have a landlord, and... but if— the lowest bidder? you cannot have a landlord, and... but if you _ the lowest bidder? you cannot have a landlord, and... but if you have - the lowest bidder? you cannot have a landlord, and... but if you have a - landlord, and... but if you have a rivate landlord, and... but if you have a private landlord _ landlord, and... but if you have a private landlord saying _ landlord, and... but if you have a private landlord saying i - landlord, and... but if you have a private landlord saying i want - landlord, and... but if you have a private landlord saying i want to l private landlord saying i want to give it to this person, how can you legislate? give it to this person, how can you leaislate? ., , ., ., , ., legislate? that is not how they do it. one legislate? that is not how they do it- one person _ legislate? that is not how they do it. one person says, _ legislate? that is not how they do it. one person says, a _ legislate? that is not how they do it. one person says, a certain - it. one person says, a certain amount of money this week and then they go back to the first person and say, i have had a better offerfor this, so you get this bidding war going on until the rents go through the roof. ., ._ , ., going on until the rents go through the roof. ., , ., ., ., the roof. you say they have got to take the first _ the roof. you say they have got to take the first offer? _ the roof. you say they have got to take the first offer? we _ the roof. you say they have got to take the first offer? we cannot. the roof. you say they have got to l take the first offer? we cannot have a biddin: take the first offer? we cannot have a bidding war _ take the first offer? we cannot have a bidding war like _ take the first offer? we cannot have a bidding war like this. _ take the first offer? we cannot have a bidding war like this. so _ take the first offer? we cannot have a bidding war like this. so they - a bidding war like this. so they have to take _ a bidding war like this. so they have to take the _ a bidding war like this. so they have to take the first - a bidding war like this. so they have to take the first offer? i a bidding war like this. so they| have to take the first offer? we need a have to take the first offer? - need a scheme in place to stop them driving the rent up and up. i am need a scheme in place to stop them driving the rent up and up.— driving the rent up and up. i am not entirely clear _ driving the rent up and up. i am not entirely clear how _ driving the rent up and up. i am not entirely clear how you _ driving the rent up and up. i am not entirely clear how you are _ driving the rent up and up. i am not entirely clear how you are going - driving the rent up and up. i am not entirely clear how you are going to l entirely clear how you are going to do that. , , ., ., ., entirely clear how you are going to dothat. , , ., ., ., , do that. deposits, a lot of renters are paying — do that. deposits, a lot of renters are paying huge — do that. deposits, a lot of renters are paying huge deposits, - do that. deposits, a lot of renters are paying huge deposits, and - do that. deposits, a lot of renters are paying huge deposits, and we| are paying huge deposits, and we have got to stop that as well, make sure the conditions are there, but at the end of the day there is no way out of the renting problem unless we build more houses because without the houses that people can afford to buy, more people are renting and that is bingo for landlords who are making a fortune out of this. i5.1"er landlords who are making a fortune out of this. , , ,, out of this. our time is up, sir keir starmer. _ out of this. our time is up, sir keir starmer. thank— out of this. our time is up, sir keir starmer. thank you - out of this. our time is up, sir keir starmer. thank you for i out of this. our time is up, sir i keir starmer. thank you for your time with us this evening. applause right, are you still with me at home? we are into the last half an hour. please welcome our final goes, the conservative leader and of course the prime minister, rishi sunak. —— final guest. applause nice to see you. ok. we have a number of questions. let's begin with the first one from kevin. irate with the first one from kevin. we have had five prime ministers in the last seven _ have had five prime ministers in the last seven years _ have had five prime ministers in the last seven years and _ have had five prime ministers in the last seven years and one _ have had five prime ministers in the last seven years and one of - have had five prime ministers in the last seven years and one of them i last seven years and one of them managed — last seven years and one of them managed to— last seven years and one of them managed to last _ last seven years and one of them managed to last for _ last seven years and one of them managed to last for six _ last seven years and one of them managed to last for six weeks, i last seven years and one of them i managed to last for six weeks, and as a result, — managed to last for six weeks, and as a result, i— managed to last for six weeks, and as a result, i think— managed to last for six weeks, and as a result, i think we _ managed to last for six weeks, and as a result, i think we are - as a result, i think we are something _ as a result, i think we are something of— as a result, i think we are something of an - as a result, i think we are - something of an international taughing _ something of an international laughing stock. _ something of an international laughing stock. i'm _ something of an international laughing stock. i'm asking. something of an international laughing stock. i'm asking if. something of an international. laughing stock. i'm asking if you would _ laughing stock. i'm asking if you would confess _ laughing stock. i'm asking if you would confess to _ laughing stock. i'm asking if you would confess to us _ laughing stock. i'm asking if you would confess to us tonight - laughing stock. i'm asking if you| would confess to us tonight even 'ust would confess to us tonight even just a _ would confess to us tonight even just a smatt— would confess to us tonight even just a small amount _ would confess to us tonight even just a small amount of— would confess to us tonight even - just a small amount of embarrassment to be leading _ just a small amount of embarrassment to be leading the — just a small amount of embarrassment to be leading the conservative - just a small amount of embarrassment to be leading the conservative party. to be leading the conservative party into this _ to be leading the conservative party into this election? _ to be leading the conservative party into this election?— into this election? applause good evening, _ into this election? applause good evening, everyone. - into this election? applause | good evening, everyone. thank into this election? applause - good evening, everyone. thank you for inviting me. when i first got thisjob, i stood on the for inviting me. when i first got this job, i stood on the steps of downing street and spoke to you as prime ministerfor downing street and spoke to you as prime minister for the first time, and i acknowledge that. i said very clearly that mistakes had been made and that is why i was standing there in front of you, and in fact you may remember i spent the summer before that arguing against the policies that arguing against the policies that my predecessor had suggested were right, i did not think they were right, i did not think they were right, i did not think they were right for the country and i said so, but i would ask you to judge me on my 18 months in office, and i came in with one primaryjob, bring back economic stability after the difficult few years we have had. so yesterday, the very welcome news that inflation is back to target, and i know that is only starting to make a difference to your lives and everyone else's but that is the path we are on and if we stick with that part, continue to cut your taxes and give you more financial security, and actually deliver on the things that i know you want me to. the auestion that i know you want me to. the question is _ that i know you want me to. the question is about _ that i know you want me to. the question is about character and trust and integrity, it is fair to say, and we have a question from graham donald on matters more recent. aren't are not these allegations about the recent— are not these allegations about the recent betting _ are not these allegations about the recent betting the _ are not these allegations about the recent betting the sort _ are not these allegations about the recent betting the sort of _ are not these allegations about the recent betting the sort of thing - are not these allegations about the recent betting the sort of thing we i recent betting the sort of thing we have had _ recent betting the sort of thing we have had to — recent betting the sort of thing we have had to tolerate _ recent betting the sort of thing we have had to tolerate from - recent betting the sort of thing we have had to tolerate from the - have had to tolerate from the conservative _ have had to tolerate from the conservative party _ have had to tolerate from the conservative party for- have had to tolerate from the conservative party for years i have had to tolerate from the . conservative party for years and years? — years? to - years? to be i years? - to be clear, for years? — to be clear, for those of you who may not be keeping up, three people are being investigated by the gambling commission about placing a bet on the timing of the election. to our conservative candidates, craig williams and loaned us law tony lee, is the conservative party director of campaigning. there is also an issue of a police officer who has been arrested. these are three people connected with the conservative party. like three people connected with the conservative party.— three people connected with the conservative party. like you, i was incredibly angry — conservative party. like you, i was incredibly angry to _ conservative party. like you, i was incredibly angry to learn _ conservative party. like you, i was incredibly angry to learn of - conservative party. like you, i was incredibly angry to learn of these i incredibly angry to learn of these allegations. it is a really serious matter. it is right they are being investigated properly by the relevant law enforcement authorities, including, as fiona said, a criminal investigation by the police. i want to be crystal clear that if anyone has broken the rules, they should face the full force of the law, and that's what those investigations are there to do, and i hope they do their work as quickly and thoroughly as possible. there are calls for them to be suspended. these are party candidates. but you are happy not to suspend them, to let them carry on to the election. they have not admitted anything, obviously, no one is saying a decision has been taken about their guilt or innocence. but you are happy for them to go into the election and represent you and the election and represent you and the conservative party? like the election and represent you and the conservative party?— the conservative party? like you said, the conservative party? like you said. these _ the conservative party? like you said, these investigations - the conservative party? like you said, these investigations are i said, these investigations are ongoing. they are rightly confidential. one is a criminal investigation being conducted by the police. yes, but that is a police matter. i'm talking about the party candidates. fir i'm talking about the party candidates.— i'm talking about the party candidates. ., , , candidates. or i would say is, they are serious — candidates. or i would say is, they are serious investigations. - candidates. or i would say is, they are serious investigations. it's - are serious investigations. it's right they are done confidentially and thoroughly. the integrity of that process should be respected. but what i can tell you is that if anyone is found to have broken the rules, not only should they face the full consequences of the law, i will make sure they are booted out of the conservative party. the woman in the white t—shirt. as a parent of 17—year—olds who have grown _ as a parent of 17—year—olds who have grown up _ as a parent of 17—year—olds who have grown up in _ as a parent of 17—year—olds who have grown up in the — as a parent of 17—year—olds who have grown up in the last— as a parent of 17—year—olds who have grown up in the last five _ as a parent of 17—year—olds who have grown up in the last five years - grown up in the last five years against — grown up in the last five years against the _ grown up in the last five years against the backdrop - grown up in the last five years against the backdrop of - grown up in the last five years against the backdrop of covid i grown up in the last five years . against the backdrop of covid and the shenanigans— against the backdrop of covid and the shenanigans of— against the backdrop of covid and the shenanigans of the _ against the backdrop of covid and the shenanigans of the tory- against the backdrop of covid and i the shenanigans of the tory party, what _ the shenanigans of the tory party, what are _ the shenanigans of the tory party, what are you — the shenanigans of the tory party, what are you going _ the shenanigans of the tory party, what are you going to _ the shenanigans of the tory party, what are you going to do - the shenanigans of the tory party, what are you going to do as - the shenanigans of the tory party, what are you going to do as a - what are you going to do as a political— what are you going to do as a political party _ what are you going to do as a political party to _ what are you going to do as a political party to rebuild - what are you going to do as a political party to rebuild trust what are you going to do as a . political party to rebuild trust in young _ political party to rebuild trust in young people _ political party to rebuild trust in young people and _ political party to rebuild trust in young people and politicians? i young people and politicians? a bit — young people and politicians? a bit of— young people and politicians? a bit of a _ young people and politicians? a bit of a theme _ young people and politicians? a bit of a theme is _ young people and politicians? a bit of a theme is emerging! | a bit of a theme is emerging! laughter you ask about why you can trust me in particular, and i will tell you, actually, very simply. it is because my grandparents came to this country with very little, and in two generations, i am standing here is your prime minister, so this country did something extraordinary for my family, and ifeelan did something extraordinary for my family, and ifeel an enormous debt of gratitude to repay that, and i am in this so that i can make the same difference to as many people as possible as the difference this country made to my family, so i can happily talk to you about lots of policies, like national service, helping your children get onto the housing ladder with stamp duty cuts, getting on great apprenticeships, but fundamentally, i am in this because of what this country has done for my family, and i will work very hard to repay that and make as many people's lives better in the way that my life has been transformed. national service is not something the people — national service is not something the people i— national service is not something the people i speak— national service is not something the people i speak to— national service is not something the people i speak to are - the people i speak to are pa rticuta rty _ the people i speak to are particularly interested i the people i speak to are| particularly interested in. the people i speak to are - particularly interested in. they do a lot of— particularly interested in. they do a lot of volunteering _ particularly interested in. they do a lot of volunteering and - particularly interested in. they do a lot of volunteering and things i a lot of volunteering and things already— a lot of volunteering and things already on— a lot of volunteering and things already on their— a lot of volunteering and things already on their own. _ a lot of volunteering and things already on their own. it - a lot of volunteering and things already on their own. it was - a lot of volunteering and things i already on their own. it was more about— already on their own. it was more about the — already on their own. it was more about the trust _ already on their own. it was more about the trust that _ already on their own. it was more about the trust that young - already on their own. it was more about the trust that young people can get— about the trust that young people can get from _ about the trust that young people can get from all— about the trust that young people can get from all politicians - about the trust that young people can get from all politicians in - about the trust that young people can get from all politicians in the i can get from all politicians in the last five — can get from all politicians in the last five years, _ can get from all politicians in the last five years, growing - can get from all politicians in the last five years, growing up - can get from all politicians in the i last five years, growing up against that, _ last five years, growing up against that, and — last five years, growing up against that, and the _ last five years, growing up against that, and the trust— last five years, growing up against that, and the trust that _ last five years, growing up against that, and the trust that can - last five years, growing up against that, and the trust that can be - that, and the trust that can be rebuilt — that, and the trust that can be rebuilt in _ that, and the trust that can be rebuilt in politicians— that, and the trust that can be rebuilt in politicians in- that, and the trust that can bel rebuilt in politicians in general. 0k. rebuilt in politicians in general. ok i_ rebuilt in politicians in general. 0k~ ithink— rebuilt in politicians in general. 0k~ ithinkyou— rebuilt in politicians in general. ok. i think you have _ rebuilt in politicians in general. ok. i think you have answeredl rebuilt in politicians in general. - ok. i think you have answered that. let's take another. this man in the blue sweater and blue shirt. despite my personal support for the scheme, _ despite my personal support for the scheme, many— despite my personal support for the scheme, many of— despite my personal support for the scheme, many of my— despite my personal support for the scheme, many of my peers - despite my personal support for the scheme, many of my peers at - despite my personal support for the i scheme, many of my peers at school, so i scheme, many of my peers at school, so i am _ scheme, many of my peers at school, so i am a _ scheme, many of my peers at school, so i am a college _ scheme, many of my peers at school, so i am a college student, _ scheme, many of my peers at school, so i am a college student, can't- scheme, many of my peers at school, so i am a college student, can't see i so i am a college student, can't see the potential— so i am a college student, can't see the potential benefits _ so i am a college student, can't see the potential benefits from - so i am a college student, can't see the potential benefits from the - the potential benefits from the national — the potential benefits from the national service _ the potential benefits from the national service scheme. - the potential benefits from the national service scheme. howl the potential benefits from the i national service scheme. how are the potential benefits from the - national service scheme. how are you going _ national service scheme. how are you going to _ national service scheme. how are you going to enforce — national service scheme. how are you going to enforce and _ national service scheme. how are you going to enforce and also _ going to enforce and also incentivise _ going to enforce and also incentivise young - going to enforce and also incentivise young peoplel going to enforce and also i incentivise young people to going to enforce and also - incentivise young people to take up the scheme? — the scheme ? actually, - the scheme ? actually, i i the scheme? . actually, i have the scheme? - actually, i have been the scheme? — actually, i have been everywhere across the country talking to young people and parents about her, and i have heard an enormous amount of support for it, and i tell you why. i was with someone just the other day who i had seen in the evening, someone in their early 20s, probably not that dissimilar in age from you, and they told me about something that had just happened to them that afternoon. they had seen an elderly person fall and damage their hip quite badly, and because they had volunteered with stjohn's ambulance, they were able to help that person and be with them, give them some sense of reassurance, get them some sense of reassurance, get the ambulance there, and that person was incredibly grateful. i was talking to this person a little more and they were explaining how they had got into stjohn's ambulance, because they had been through a difficult time in their lives and it was something they did to give them a sense of purpose and contribution to society, they found it a fulfilling and meaningful experience, as well as, in that case, giving them some practical skills that have allowed them to help other people in their life, and that's why i think national service is a good idea. that one person's example is a good reason to spread this as many people as possible, make sure everyone can have those skills and opportunities, have a sense of contributing to something bigger than themselves. i think they give people meaning and purpose, and also contribute country as an echo overall resilience and security, and that's why, like i said, that the story encapsulates why this is a good idea. you say you have been talking to young people. have you also talk to your former chief of the naval staff, who senses as it is —— who says it is bonkers? and another, who says it is bonkers? and another, who says it is electoral opportunism? it would not be appropriate to politicise the armed forces in an election campaign. they have been very critical, given they know a bit or two, i thought you might find out why. i they know a bit or two, i thought you might find out why.- you might find out why. i have soken you might find out why. i have spoken to _ you might find out why. i have spoken to lots _ you might find out why. i have spoken to lots of _ you might find out why. i have spoken to lots of people - you might find out why. i have spoken to lots of people in - you might find out why. i have| spoken to lots of people in the armed forces, and they themselves have been working on schemes to make it easier for young people to engage with the armed forces. that's something they themselves have worked on. those decisions i have been having for many months, and it's really important for people to know, the military option is optional. no one will be forced to do it. it will actually be very selective. do it. it will actually be very selective-— do it. it will actually be very selective. ., , selective. the whole thing will be 0 tional, selective. the whole thing will be optional, won't _ selective. the whole thing will be optional, won't it? _ selective. the whole thing will be optional, won't it? national- selective. the whole thing will be i optional, won't it? national service will be compulsory, _ optional, won't it? national service will be compulsory, the _ optional, won't it? national service will be compulsory, the military - will be compulsory, the military option will be something people choose to do. i option will be something people choose to do.— option will be something people choose to do. , ., , ., choose to do. i see. so how will you make people _ choose to do. i see. so how will you make people do _ choose to do. i see. so how will you make people do it? _ make people do it? if national service is going to be compulsory, how will you make people do it? ., ., ., , ., do it? you will have a set of sanctions — do it? you will have a set of sanctions and _ do it? you will have a set of sanctions and incentives, i do it? you will have a set of. sanctions and incentives, and do it? you will have a set of - sanctions and incentives, and we will look at existing models around europe to get the appropriate mix. like what? a range of different options exist. for example? all sorts of things across europe are done, like looking at driving licences, access to finance another thing is not micro access to finance? so if people don't want to do national service, you will take their bank cards away?! no, no! they can't get a loan? no, there are different models around europe, this is being done in multiple countries not micro i don't doubt it, just asking what you will do. there are a range of things, we will have a royal commission to look at that and come back to the government and recommend the appropriate mix of sanctions and incentives. the and recommend the appropriate mix of sanctions and incentives.— sanctions and incentives. the man there. four and a half years ago, the conservative _ four and a half years ago, the conservative party— four and a half years ago, the| conservative party campaigned four and a half years ago, the . conservative party campaigned in four and a half years ago, the - conservative party campaigned in the oven ready— conservative party campaigned in the oven ready deat— conservative party campaigned in the oven ready deal so _ conservative party campaigned in the oven ready deal so that _ conservative party campaigned in the oven ready deal so that brexit - conservative party campaigned in the oven ready deal so that brexit wouldl oven ready deal so that brexit would be done _ oven ready deal so that brexit would be done and — oven ready deal so that brexit would be done and it— oven ready deal so that brexit would be done and it would _ oven ready deal so that brexit would be done and it would be _ oven ready deal so that brexit would be done and it would be great- oven ready deal so that brexit would be done and it would be great for. be done and it would be great for the country. _ be done and it would be great for the country, and _ be done and it would be great for the country, and that— be done and it would be great for the country, and that was - be done and it would be great for the country, and that was the - be done and it would be great for. the country, and that was the heart of your— the country, and that was the heart of your election _ the country, and that was the heart of your election promises. - the country, and that was the heart of your election promises. why - the country, and that was the heart. of your election promises. why now, four and _ of your election promises. why now, four and a _ of your election promises. why now, fourand a half— of your election promises. why now, four and a half years _ of your election promises. why now, four and a half years later, _ of your election promises. why now, four and a half years later, aren't - four and a half years later, aren't you saying. — four and a half years later, aren't you saying. took— four and a half years later, aren't you saying, look how— four and a half years later, aren't you saying, look how great - four and a half years later, aren't| you saying, look how great brexit has been — you saying, look how great brexit has been for _ you saying, look how great brexit has been for us? _ you saying, look how great brexit has been for us? it _ you saying, look how great brexit has been for us? it is _ you saying, look how great brexit has been for us? it is somethingl has been for us? it is something that is— has been for us? it is something that is absent _ has been for us? it is something that is absent from _ has been for us? it is something that is absent from your - has been for us? it is something i that is absent from your manifesto, and what _ that is absent from your manifesto, and what has — that is absent from your manifesto, and what has happened _ that is absent from your manifesto, and what has happened with - that is absent from your manifesto, and what has happened with brexitl and what has happened with brexit has been _ and what has happened with brexit has been particularly— and what has happened with brexit has been particularly affecting - and what has happened with brexit has been particularly affecting to i has been particularly affecting to young _ has been particularly affecting to young people. _ has been particularly affecting to young people, their— has been particularly affecting to young people, their ability- has been particularly affecting to young people, their ability to - has been particularly affecting to i young people, their ability to work and educate — young people, their ability to work and educate abroad, _ young people, their ability to work and educate abroad, and - young people, their ability to work and educate abroad, and we - young people, their ability to work and educate abroad, and we have| and educate abroad, and we have benefited — and educate abroad, and we have benefited from _ and educate abroad, and we have benefited from europe. _ and educate abroad, and we have benefited from europe. we - and educate abroad, and we have - benefited from europe. we benefited from lower— benefited from europe. we benefited from lower house _ benefited from europe. we benefited from lower house prices, _ benefited from europe. we benefited from lower house prices, from - benefited from europe. we benefited from lower house prices, from good. from lower house prices, from good pensions _ from lower house prices, from good pensions we — from lower house prices, from good pensions we have _ from lower house prices, from good pensions. we have throwing - from lower house prices, from good pensions. we have throwing young. pensions. we have throwing young people _ pensions. we have throwing young people into — pensions. we have throwing young people into the _ pensions. we have throwing young people into the fire, _ pensions. we have throwing young people into the fire, and _ pensions. we have throwing young people into the fire, and i- pensions. we have throwing young people into the fire, and ijust - people into the fire, and ijust don't — people into the fire, and ijust don't see _ people into the fire, and ijust don't see anything _ people into the fire, and ijust don't see anything that - people into the fire, and ijust don't see anything that you i people into the fire, and ijustl don't see anything that you are doing _ don't see anything that you are doing for— don't see anything that you are doing for them. _ doing for them. applause - applause sir to be clear, is your question about brexit or about young people? about how brexit has denied young people _ about how brexit has denied young people a _ about how brexit has denied young people a future _ people a future. 0k~ _ 0k. applause prime minister. we had all these debates several years ago. i will not re—litigate them. we had a referendum, and the country decided, and now, thejob is to get on and make sure we realise all the benefits of that. actually, you don't have to go very far from here to see it, and a very tangible thing for young people. in teesside, there is something called a free port, which is something we have created with investment from brexit. it is attracted thousands of pounds worth of investment, created high—qualityjobs. i was there recently talking to young apprentices who are now doing fantastic careers in the growth industries of the future, incredibly excited about what that is for them and that means. you could have urban free ports without leaving the eu, as you know. you can't in the same way, fiona. perhaps not in the same way, but... the way we have done the means we are attracting the investment in creating the jobs, which are attracting the investment in creating thejobs, which is are attracting the investment in creating the jobs, which is already making a difference to so many people's lives. that's a very practical example of what we've done. the choice of this election is about the future. we're not going back to brexit. this is about the future, when it comes the economy, and making sure people who are working hard have the opportunities they deserve, what i want to do is build on the progress we've made and give you and every other young person that you are concerned about the opportunity to get a job with a new apprentice, if that's the right thing for them, keep more of their hardened money by cutting their taxes. that's what i want to do for people, and actually, outside of the eu, we are able to do things that will drive more growth, create more jobs, and allow me to cut more taxes. that's the choice this election. can we take a question from ronald? there you are. mr sunak, recent figures show nhs waiting _ mr sunak, recent figures show nhs waiting list— mr sunak, recent figures show nhs waiting list of— mr sunak, recent figures show nhs waiting list of more _ mr sunak, recent figures show nhs waiting list of more than— mr sunak, recent figures show nhs waiting list of more than doubled i waiting list of more than doubled and your— waiting list of more than doubled and your government. _ waiting list of more than doubled and your government. what - waiting list of more than doubled - and your government. what message do you have _ and your government. what message do you have for— and your government. what message do you have for those — and your government. what message do you have for those on _ and your government. what message do you have for those on waiting _ and your government. what message do you have for those on waiting list, - you have for those on waiting list, pa rticuta rty — you have for those on waiting list, particularly those _ you have for those on waiting list, particularly those who _ you have for those on waiting list, particularly those who have - you have for those on waiting list, particularly those who have beenl you have for those on waiting list, i particularly those who have been on them _ particularly those who have been on them for— particularly those who have been on them for more — particularly those who have been on them for more than _ particularly those who have been on them for more than a _ particularly those who have been on them for more than a year? - particularly those who have been on them for more than a year? —— - particularly those who have been on them for more than a year? —— on i them for more than a year? —— on waiting _ them for more than a year? —— on waiting lists? _ waiting lists? it _ waiting lists? it was - waiting lists? | it was ronald, waiting lists? - it was ronald, wasn't waiting lists? _ it was ronald, wasn't it? i waiting lists? — it was ronald, wasn't it? i come from an nhs family, so i was surrounded by people who dedicated their lives to making their patients' lives a bit easier, that's what i spent my childhood doing and working on, so the nhs matters to me personally. we haven't made as much progress as i would have liked tackling waiting lists in the last 18 months. tackling waiting lists in the last 18 months-— tackling waiting lists in the last 18 months. . ., ., ,, , 18 months. and you have not kept our 18 months. and you have not kept your pledge _ 18 months. and you have not kept your pledge either, _ 18 months. and you have not kept your pledge either, to _ 18 months. and you have not kept your pledge either, to bring - 18 months. and you have not kept your pledge either, to bring them| your pledge either, to bring them down. more specifically, you made a pledge. down. more specifically, you made a ”lede_ . ., down. more specifically, you made a ”ledge ., down. more specifically, you made a ”ledel. ., down. more specifically, you made a ”ledge ., , pledge. what i can tell you is, we are putting _ pledge. what i can tell you is, we are putting record _ pledge. what i can tell you is, we are putting record investment - pledge. what i can tell you is, we are putting record investment in. pledge. what i can tell you is, we i are putting record investment in the nhs. we have more doctors and nurses working in it than ever before, we are training more. we are doing different things, making sure we can diagnose cancers earlier by doing scans because of the people's homes, allowing you to do more things at your pharmacy to get quicker treatment, those things are starting to make a difference. over the past few months, we've seen waiting lists are now starting to come down. they have just gone up! over the past five months, they have gone down by around 200,000. they are still higher than where you predicted, they have just gone up. i freely acknowledge that. but fiona, this is an important point. inflation yesterday hit 2%. when i became prime minister, it was 11. that is something i said i would do, we have done it. things don't happen overnight, they don't happen in a straight line, but if you have a plan and stick to it, you can get the results. you have seen that on inflation, you have seen me stick to a plan, and, yes, during that period, it popped up a couple of times and have once had the same, they said, if we stick to it, we will get it there, and we did. on waiting list, i've not made as much progress as i would like, but because of what we're doing, you have seen waiting list over this year start to come down. there are still a way to go, of course. but we will stick to it and i will get it done. —— there is still a way to go. done. -- there is stilla wa to no. �* -- there is still a way to go. are ou -- there is still a way to go. are you convinced? _ you convinced? no _ you convinced? no so- you convinced? no. so your. you convinced? - no. 50 your message you convinced? - no. so your message to you convinced? _ no. so your message to people you convinced? — no. so your message to people still on waiting _ no. so your message to people still on waiting list — no. so your message to people still on waiting list is, _ no. so your message to people still on waiting list is, sorry, _ no. so your message to people still on waiting list is, sorry, but - no. so your message to people still on waiting list is, sorry, but could i on waiting list is, sorry, but could do better? — do better? i— do better? i want - do better? i want to i do better? - i want to make sure do better? _ i want to make sure they do better? — i want to make sure they get their treatment as quickly as possible, which is where we are putting more money in, hiring more doctors and nurses and doing things differently so they can get the care they need in different ways. often outside of hospitals. i can't promise that will be solved overnight, and to give you the context, here is what we are grappling with. during the pandemic, 6 million referrals that otherwise would have happened didn't happen. think about that for a second. 6 million. that is what we are now grappling with. that is why the nhs is under the pressure that is under. 6 million missed referrals we are now catching up on. the nhs is doing more today than it has ever done in this history because of the investment we have done, and all of the improvements we have made. it is the improvements we have made. it is not treatin? the improvements we have made. it is not treating more people. yes, the nhs today is carrying out more checks, tests, scans, operations, treatments and appointments than ever in its history. but when you are dealing with a 6 million missed referrals we are now catching up on, it will take time to get them down. let's have this man in the front. i am glad, richey, you said that you have family— i am glad, richey, you said that you have family in — i am glad, richey, you said that you have family in the _ i am glad, richey, you said that you have family in the nhs. _ i am glad, richey, you said that you have family in the nhs. you - i am glad, richey, you said that you have family in the nhs. you have i have family in the nhs. you have said there — have family in the nhs. you have said there are _ have family in the nhs. you have said there are more _ have family in the nhs. you have said there are more operations. i| have family in the nhs. you have . said there are more operations. i am a said there are more operations. ! am a front— said there are more operations. i am a front line _ said there are more operations. i am a front line docked _ said there are more operations. i am a front line docked in _ said there are more operations. i am a front line docked in the _ said there are more operations. i am a front line docked in the nhs, - said there are more operations. i am a front line docked in the nhs, i- a front line docked in the nhs, i work— a front line docked in the nhs, i work here, — a front line docked in the nhs, i work here, and _ a front line docked in the nhs, i work here, and i— a front line docked in the nhs, i work here, and i more— a front line docked in the nhs, i| work here, and i more frustrated a front line docked in the nhs, i- work here, and i more frustrated now than before, — work here, and i more frustrated now than before, because _ work here, and i more frustrated now than before, because every— work here, and i more frustrated now than before, because every time, - than before, because every time, there _ than before, because every time, there is— than before, because every time, there is no— than before, because every time, there is no funding, _ than before, because every time, there is no funding, nothing, - than before, because every time, i there is no funding, nothing, even for children — there is no funding, nothing, even for children who _ there is no funding, nothing, even for children who are _ there is no funding, nothing, even for children who are having - for children who are having constipation, _ for children who are having constipation, soiling, - for children who are having constipation, soiling, theyl for children who are having i constipation, soiling, they are being — constipation, soiling, they are being called _ constipation, soiling, they are being called smelly— constipation, soiling, they are being called smelly boys - constipation, soiling, they are| being called smelly boys when constipation, soiling, they are i being called smelly boys when it constipation, soiling, they are - being called smelly boys when it a .irl being called smelly boys when it a girl in _ being called smelly boys when it a girl in the — being called smelly boys when it a girl in the school. _ being called smelly boys when it a girl in the school. that _ being called smelly boys when it a girl in the school. that says - being called smelly boys when it a girl in the school. that says we i being called smelly boys when ital girl in the school. that says we are not providing — girl in the school. that says we are not providing the _ girl in the school. that says we are not providing the service. - girl in the school. that says we are not providing the service. how- girl in the school. that says we are not providing the service. how can| not providing the service. how can you say— not providing the service. how can you say that — not providing the service. how can you say that the _ not providing the service. how can you say that the parents _ not providing the service. how can you say that the parents will - not providing the service. how can you say that the parents will be i you say that the parents will be confident — you say that the parents will be confident who _ you say that the parents will be confident who are _ you say that the parents will be confident who are frustrated i you say that the parents will be i confident who are frustrated now? the nhs _ confident who are frustrated now? the nhs staff— confident who are frustrated now? the nhs staff morale _ confident who are frustrated now? the nhs staff morale is— confident who are frustrated now? the nhs staff morale is now- confident who are frustrated now? the nhs staff morale is now all. the nhs staff morale is now all the way down — the nhs staff morale is now all the way down there _ the nhs staff morale is now all the way down. there are _ the nhs staff morale is now all the way down. there are more - the nhs staff morale is now all the way down. there are more strikesi the nhs staff morale is now all the i way down. there are more strikes and you're _ way down. there are more strikes and you're period — way down. there are more strikes and you're period than _ way down. there are more strikes and you're period than ever— way down. there are more strikes and you're period than ever before. - way down. there are more strikes and you're period than ever before. what. you're period than ever before. what would _ you're period than ever before. what would you _ you're period than ever before. what would you say— you're period than ever before. what would you say to that, _ you're period than ever before. what would you say to that, that - you're period than ever before. what would you say to that, that people i would you say to that, that people are suffering, _ would you say to that, that people are suffering, the _ would you say to that, that people are suffering, the doctors, - would you say to that, that people| are suffering, the doctors, nurses, therapists — are suffering, the doctors, nurses, therapists everywhere, _ are suffering, the doctors, nurses, therapists everywhere, the - are suffering, the doctors, nurses, i therapists everywhere, the patients are suffering, — therapists everywhere, the patients are suffering, waiting _ therapists everywhere, the patients are suffering, waiting lists- therapists everywhere, the patients are suffering, waiting lists are - are suffering, waiting lists are going — are suffering, waiting lists are going up _ are suffering, waiting lists are going up you _ are suffering, waiting lists are going up you say— are suffering, waiting lists are going up. you say it— are suffering, waiting lists are going up. you say it is- are suffering, waiting lists are going up. you say it is going i are suffering, waiting lists are - going up. you say it is going down. i going up. you say it is going down. i don't _ going up. you say it is going down. i don't know— going up. you say it is going down. i don't know what _ going up. you say it is going down. i don't know what is— going up. you say it is going down. i don't know what is said, - going up. you say it is going down. i don't know what is said, and - i don't know what is said, and then you said _ i don't know what is said, and then you said 10 — i don't know what is said, and then you said 10 billion _ i don't know what is said, and then you said 10 billion more _ i don't know what is said, and then| you said 10 billion more investment in your— you said 10 billion more investment in your manifesto. _ you said 10 billion more investment in your manifesto. what _ you said 10 billion more investment in your manifesto. what is - you said 10 billion more investment in your manifesto. what is going i you said 10 billion more investment in your manifesto. what is going to| in your manifesto. what is going to happen? _ in your manifesto. what is going to happen? how— in your manifesto. what is going to happen? how do— in your manifesto. what is going to happen? how do we _ in your manifesto. what is going to happen? how do we trust - in your manifesto. what is going to happen? how do we trust it - in your manifesto. what is going to happen? how do we trust it is - in your manifesto. what is going to| happen? how do we trust it is going to happen? — happen? how do we trust it is going to happen? and— happen? how do we trust it is going to happen? and i_ happen? how do we trust it is going to happen? and i think— happen? how do we trust it is going to happen? and i think in _ happen? how do we trust it is going to happen? and i think in my- happen? how do we trust it is going to happen? and i think in my view, i to happen? and i think in my view, it is not— to happen? and i think in my view, it is not a _ to happen? and i think in my view, it is not a true, _ to happen? and i think in my view, it is not a true, deliverable - to happen? and i think in my view, it is not a true, deliverable goal. i it is not a true, deliverable goal. applause — applause well, sir... there is more money going into the nhs today than there has been in its history, and i'm sure bbc verify after this debate will verify that for you, after this debate will verify that foryou, but after this debate will verify that for you, but that is the fact. inflation might have something to do with that. i absolutely acknowledge your concerns. you and your colleagues are working very hard. you're doing more than we've ever done before, but the situation is challenging because we are dealing with the backlog of missed appointments that you are very well aware of, and i'm sure you are working hard during covid —— were working hard. you saw what didn't happen during that period. you talked about parents and children. i'll give you one practical example of something we are doing that is already making a difference. because of the changes we have made, if your child has an ear infection, a sore throat, sinusitis, instead of having to make a gp appointment, you can now go direct to your pharmacist to get the medicines that you need. that change we have made is making an enormous difference already, saving parents an enormous amount of time, making sure their children get the care and medicines they need much quicker, and if i am re—elected, we will extend that programme to cover more different illnesses, and again, these things all add up. know one thing. the programme, but it's a demonstration to making sure that you and everyone else will have an nhs that is there for them when they need. a, nhs that is there for them when they need. �* , , , nhs that is there for them when they need. . , , , , ., nhs that is there for them when they need. . , ,, , ., ., | need. a bit less frustrated now? i am not need. a bit less frustrated now? i am riot sure! _ am not sure! 0k, - am not sure! ok, let's- am not sure! i ok, let's take am not sure! - ok, let's take another an noi — ok, let's take another question. woman there. employed migrant workers such as myself, _ employed migrant workers such as myself, or— employed migrant workers such as myself, oryour— employed migrant workers such as myself, or your parents, _ employed migrant workers such as myself, or your parents, for- myself, or your parents, for example. _ myself, or your parents, for example, contribute - myself, or your parents, for example, contribute to - myself, or your parents, for example, contribute to curl myself, or your parents, for- example, contribute to our essential services, _ example, contribute to our essential services, fill— example, contribute to our essential services, fill skill— example, contribute to our essential services, fill skill gaps _ example, contribute to our essential services, fill skill gaps and _ services, fill skill gaps and contribute _ services, fill skill gaps and contribute taxes _ services, fill skill gaps and contribute taxes as - services, fill skill gaps and contribute taxes as well. i services, fill skill gaps and i contribute taxes as well. can services, fill skill gaps and - contribute taxes as well. can you tell me _ contribute taxes as well. can you tell me how _ contribute taxes as well. can you tell me how setting _ contribute taxes as well. can you tell me how setting strict - contribute taxes as well. can you i tell me how setting strict migration limits— tell me how setting strict migration limits for— tell me how setting strict migration limits for them _ tell me how setting strict migration limits for them or— tell me how setting strict migration limits forthem ortheir_ tell me how setting strict migration limits for them or their close - limits for them or their close relatives— limits for them or their close relatives is— limits for them or their close relatives is beneficial - limits for them or their close relatives is beneficial when i limits for them or their close i relatives is beneficial when we still have — relatives is beneficial when we still have skill— relatives is beneficial when we still have skill shortages, - still have skill shortages, particularly _ still have skill shortages, particularly in _ still have skill shortages, particularly in the - still have skill shortages, particularly in the nhs? i particularly in the nhs? applause _ particularly in the nhs? applause applause i applause applause right. migrants can make a contribution to this country, like my parents and grandparents but the levels of migration _ my parents and grandparents but the levels of migration we _ my parents and grandparents but the levels of migration we have - my parents and grandparents but the levels of migration we have seen - my parents and grandparents but the levels of migration we have seen are| levels of migration we have seen are too high and they need to come down and that is what we are now doing. if you look at the visas we issued at the start of the year, down by about 30%, the level of net migration is forecast to halve, and if i'm elected there will be a legal migration camp that we vote on in parliament to guarantee the numbers come down every year —— migration cap. come down every year -- migration ca -. come down every year -- migration ca . _ , ., come down every year -- migration ca -. , ., , come down every year -- migration ca. , ., , ., come down every year -- migration cap. the question is about how to encourage — cap. the question is about how to encourage the — cap. the question is about how to encourage the right _ cap. the question is about how to encourage the right kind - cap. the question is about how to encourage the right kind of - cap. the question is about how to i encourage the right kind of workers here and if you are not allowing them to bring theirfamilies, that is a serious disincentive, that is what you are saying?— is a serious disincentive, that is what you are saying? what we have done is if people — what you are saying? what we have done is if people are _ what you are saying? what we have done is if people are going - what you are saying? what we have done is if people are going to - what you are saying? what we have done is if people are going to bring | done is if people are going to bring family members here, they have got to be able to support them and i think that is fair, it is a very reasonable proposition to say, if people are bringing their family, family dependents, they need to demonstrate they can support them, thatis demonstrate they can support them, that is i think a very common—sense measure and that is what we are doing. i measure and that is what we are doini. , ., ., ., ., doing. i understand that and i agree but then you — doing. i understand that and i agree but then you think— doing. i understand that and i agree but then you think that _ doing. i understand that and i agree but then you think that social- but then you think that social workers _ but then you think that social workers coming _ but then you think that social workers coming from - but then you think that social workers coming from abroadl but then you think that social. workers coming from abroad it but then you think that social- workers coming from abroad it should be paid _ workers coming from abroad it should be paid more — workers coming from abroad it should be paid more in— workers coming from abroad it should be paid more in order— workers coming from abroad it should be paid more in orderto_ workers coming from abroad it should be paid more in order to be _ workers coming from abroad it should be paid more in order to be able - workers coming from abroad it should be paid more in order to be able to i be paid more in order to be able to support— be paid more in order to be able to surmort their— be paid more in order to be able to support their families— be paid more in order to be able to support their families because - be paid more in order to be able toi support their families because they will not _ support their families because they will not be — support their families because they will not be able _ support their families because they will not be able to _ support their families because they will not be able to on _ support their families because they will not be able to on the _ support their families because they will not be able to on the kind - support their families because they will not be able to on the kind of i will not be able to on the kind of limits— will not be able to on the kind of limits that — will not be able to on the kind of limits that you _ will not be able to on the kind of limits that you have _ will not be able to on the kind of limits that you have put - will not be able to on the kind of limits that you have put in - will not be able to on the kind of| limits that you have put in place, given _ limits that you have put in place, given their— limits that you have put in place, given their salaries, _ limits that you have put in place, given their salaries, they- limits that you have put in place, given their salaries, they will- limits that you have put in place, given their salaries, they will noti given their salaries, they will not be able _ given their salaries, they will not be able to— given their salaries, they will not be able to support _ given their salaries, they will not be able to support their- given their salaries, they will not| be able to support their families? we have — be able to support their families? we have a — be able to support their families? we have a dedicated _ be able to support their families? we have a dedicated visa - be able to support their families? we have a dedicated visa for- be able to support their families? | we have a dedicated visa for social care because we know how important thatis care because we know how important that is we need to get the right workers which is why there is a dedicated visa for social care, unlike a lot of other areas. the oint unlike a lot of other areas. the point you _ unlike a lot of other areas. the point you are _ unlike a lot of other areas. the point you are making is they were not necessarily be able to support their families on their salaries. there are a lot of people prepared to come to this country because it is a fantastic country, to fill vacancies and do not need to bring family members and we will welcome them here, because what we can't do it support an unlimited number of people coming here, who are not working, that is not simply right or fair comments we may disagree on this but i think migration has got to come down from the levels we have seen. that is what the migration cap will deliver and i think basic things like expecting people to support their family if they are bringing them here isjust fair to everybody and that is what i believe is the right thing to do. my daughter— is the right thing to do. my daughter has lived in australia and is now_ daughter has lived in australia and is now working _ daughter has lived in australia and is now working in _ daughter has lived in australia and is now working in singapore, - daughter has lived in australia and is now working in singapore, and i daughter has lived in australia and| is now working in singapore, and in both of— is now working in singapore, and in both of those — is now working in singapore, and in both of those countries, _ is now working in singapore, and in both of those countries, without i both of those countries, without sponsors — both of those countries, without sponsors or _ both of those countries, without sponsors or a _ both of those countries, without sponsors or a job, _ both of those countries, without sponsors or a job, there - both of those countries, without sponsors or a job, there are - both of those countries, without sponsors or a job, there are no. sponsors or a job, there are no benefits, — sponsors or a job, there are no benefits, no— sponsors or a job, there are no benefits, no health _ sponsors or a job, there are no benefits, no health care, - sponsors or a job, there are no benefits, no health care, as i benefits, no health care, as such, and therefore _ benefits, no health care, as such, and therefore it _ benefits, no health care, as such, and therefore it attracts _ benefits, no health care, as such, and therefore it attracts people i and therefore it attracts people that want — and therefore it attracts people that want to _ and therefore it attracts people that want to go _ and therefore it attracts people that want to go to _ and therefore it attracts people that want to go to work- and therefore it attracts people that want to go to work hard i and therefore it attracts people that want to go to work hard toi and therefore it attracts people - that want to go to work hard to live there~ _ that want to go to work hard to live there~ in— that want to go to work hard to live there~ intern1s_ that want to go to work hard to live there. in terms of— that want to go to work hard to live there. in terms of the _ that want to go to work hard to live there. in terms of the uk, - that want to go to work hard to live there. in terms of the uk, we - that want to go to work hard to live there. in terms of the uk, we do. there. in terms of the uk, we do need— there. in terms of the uk, we do need migration, _ there. in terms of the uk, we do need migration, especially- there. in terms of the uk, we do need migration, especially for. there. in terms of the uk, we dol need migration, especially for the lower— need migration, especially for the lower paid — need migration, especially for the lower paid jobs. _ need migration, especially for the lower paid jobs, because - need migration, especially for the lower paid jobs, because our- need migration, especially for the lower paid jobs, because our lazy| lower paid jobs, because our lazy lot will— lower paid jobs, because our lazy lot will not— lower paid jobs, because our lazy lot will not do _ lower paid jobs, because our lazy lot will not do it. _ lower paid jobs, because our lazy lot will not do it. are— lower paid jobs, because our lazy lot will not do it.— lot will not do it. are you talking about the audience _ lot will not do it. are you talking about the audience here? - lot will not do it. are you talking | about the audience here? maybe lot will not do it. are you talking - about the audience here? maybe some of them. about the audience here? maybe some of them- fighting _ about the audience here? maybe some of them. fighting talk! _ about the audience here? maybe some of them. fighting talk! who _ about the audience here? maybe some of them. fighting talk! who knows? i of them. fighting talk! who knows? what i of them. fighting talk! who knows? what i can't — of them. fighting talk! who knows? what i can't grasn — of them. fighting talk! who knows? what i can't grasp is _ of them. fighting talk! who knows? what i can't grasp is regarding - of them. fighting talk! who knows? what i can't grasp is regarding the l what i can't grasp is regarding the illegal— what i can't grasp is regarding the illegal immigration, _ what i can't grasp is regarding the illegal immigration, if— what i can't grasp is regarding the illegal immigration, if we - what i can't grasp is regarding the illegal immigration, if we did - what i can't grasp is regarding the illegal immigration, if we did not. illegal immigration, if we did not have _ illegal immigration, if we did not have similar— illegal immigration, if we did not have similar policies _ illegal immigration, if we did not have similar policies introduced, | have similar policies introduced, perhaps— have similar policies introduced, perhaps the _ have similar policies introduced, perhaps the attraction _ have similar policies introduced, perhaps the attraction for - have similar policies introduced, perhaps the attraction for the i perhaps the attraction for the illegal— perhaps the attraction for the illegal immigrants, _ perhaps the attraction for the illegal immigrants, it- perhaps the attraction for the illegal immigrants, it would l perhaps the attraction for the . illegal immigrants, it would not perhaps the attraction for the - illegal immigrants, it would not go through— illegal immigrants, it would not go through the — illegal immigrants, it would not go through the tortuous _ illegal immigrants, it would not go through the tortuous journey - illegal immigrants, it would not go through the tortuous journey is - illegal immigrants, it would not go. through the tortuous journey is they io through the tortuous journey is they go through— through the tortuous journey is they go through and _ through the tortuous journey is they go through and we _ through the tortuous journey is they go through and we would _ through the tortuous journey is they go through and we would be - through the tortuous journey is they go through and we would be in - through the tortuous journey is they go through and we would be in the i go through and we would be in the situation _ go through and we would be in the situation now. _ go through and we would be in the situation now, where _ go through and we would be in the situation now, where most- go through and we would be in the situation now, where most of- go through and we would be in the situation now, where most of this| situation now, where most of this election— situation now, where most of this election is— situation now, where most of this election is about _ situation now, where most of this election is about immigration, - situation now, where most of this election is about immigration, i. election is about immigration, i feel _ election is about immigration, i feel why— election is about immigration, i feel why can _ election is about immigration, i feel. why can we _ election is about immigration, i feel. why can we not _ election is about immigration, i feel. why can we not be - feel. why can we not be stricter like other— feel. why can we not be stricter like other countries— feel. why can we not be stricter like other countries are? - feel. why can we not be stricter like other countries are? that. feel. why can we not be stricter like other countries are? that is what i like other countries are? that is what i want _ like other countries are? that is what i want to _ like other countries are? that is what i want to deliver _ like other countries are? that is what i want to deliver because l like other countries are? that is i what i want to deliver because you are right, illegal immigration is wrong and when people jump the queue and come to our country illegally, it undermines the notion and a sense of fairness that the country is built on, and it puts pressure on public services and it causes security issues but fundamentally it is wrong and unfair and that is why i want to stop that. we have made progress but to fix the problem you have identified, mimicking something australia did for a while, as well, we need to remove people who come here illegally and send them somewhere else that is safe. br; somewhere else that is safe. by which you mean rwanda. you are talking about rwanda? yes. which you mean rwanda. you are talking about rwanda?— which you mean rwanda. you are talking about rwanda? yes. we have fliuhts talking about rwanda? yes. we have flights ready — talking about rwanda? yes. we have flights ready to _ talking about rwanda? yes. we have flights ready to go — talking about rwanda? yes. we have flights ready to go that _ talking about rwanda? yes. we have flights ready to go that will _ talking about rwanda? yes. we have flights ready to go that will take - flights ready to go that will take illegal migrants to rwanda and if keir starmer is the prime minister, the illegal migrants we have detained will be out on the streets, they will not be on those planes, and we will become the soft touch of europe just at a time when multiple european countries are agreeing that our approach is the right approach and that is what i want to deliver for you as our prime minister. i do for you as our prime minister. i do believe you _ for you as our prime minister. i do believe you would _ for you as our prime minister. i do believe you would be able to deliver which _ believe you would be able to deliver which trrings— believe you would be able to deliver which trrings me _ believe you would be able to deliver which brings me to— believe you would be able to deliver which brings me to my— believe you would be able to deliver which brings me to my next - which brings me to my next question~~~ _ which brings me to my next question... why— which brings me to my next question... why did - which brings me to my next question... why did you - which brings me to my next| question... why did you call which brings me to my next - question... why did you call the election— question... why did you call the election early? _ question. .. why did you call the election early?— question... why did you call the election early? going back to the second question, _ election early? going back to the second question, my _ election early? going back to the second question, my number- election early? going back to the | second question, my number one election early? going back to the - second question, my number one job second question, my number onejob when i became prime minister was to make sure we had economic stability, and when we had that, when inflation was effectively back to normal, the economy was growing healthily, i thought that was the right time to consider our future, thought that was the right time to consider ourfuture, you have a choice, do we build on the progress we have made? i want to keep cutting taxes. the alternative if keir starmer is the prime minister, taxes are going to go up, and that is the question for everyone in this election and i'm going to fight hard to continue the work we have started and continue cutting taxes and having financial stability. hagar and continue cutting taxes and having financial stability. how do ou think having financial stability. how do you think it _ having financial stability. how do you think it is — having financial stability. how do you think it is going? _ having financial stability. how do you think it is going? it - having financial stability. how do you think it is going? it is - having financial stability. how do you think it is going? it is the - you think it is going? it is the riaht you think it is going? it is the right moment _ you think it is going? it is the right moment to _ you think it is going? it is the right moment to call- you think it is going? it is the right moment to call the - you think it is going? it is the - right moment to call the election for the reasons i outlined and of course these things are difficult but to answer the first question over there, when i was standing against liz truss in the leadership election, at the same questions from everybody, why are you bothering, you are behind, this is all very difficult, and i said no, i'm fighting for what i believe is right. people did not want to hear it at the time but i kept saying what i thought was right for the country and i kept going to the end and i was proved right. that is why you can trust me now when i say what keir starmer is promising you is the same fantasy that is trusted and it is going to be your taxes are going to go up and that matters to me because i do not want that to happen and that is why we are having this election and that is what i'm going to keep fighting for. he election and that is what i'm going to keep fighting for.— to keep fighting for. he obviously disutes to keep fighting for. he obviously disputes that. _ to keep fighting for. he obviously disputes that. we _ to keep fighting for. he obviously disputes that. we now _ to keep fighting for. he obviously disputes that. we now have - to keep fighting for. he obviously disputes that. we now have a - disputes that. we now have a question. a little bit further back, with the glasses. figs question. a little bit further back, with the glasses.— with the glasses. as labour are redicted with the glasses. as labour are predicted to — with the glasses. as labour are predicted to win _ with the glasses. as labour are predicted to win a _ with the glasses. as labour are predicted to win a landslide - predicted to win a landslide victory, _ predicted to win a landslide victory, do _ predicted to win a landslide victory, do you _ predicted to win a landslide victory, do you have - predicted to win a landslide victory, do you have any . predicted to win a landslide - victory, do you have any regrets about _ victory, do you have any regrets about any— victory, do you have any regrets about any actions _ victory, do you have any regrets about any actions you _ victory, do you have any regrets about any actions you have - victory, do you have any regretsl about any actions you have taken during _ about any actions you have taken during your— about any actions you have taken during your premiership? - about any actions you have taken during your premiership? piny- during your premiership? any recrets, during your premiership? any regrets, prime _ during your premiership? 2n- regrets, prime minister. during your premiership? any regrets, prime minister. of. during your premiership? any - regrets, prime minister. of course, nobody gets — regrets, prime minister. of course, nobody gets everything _ regrets, prime minister. of course, nobody gets everything right - regrets, prime minister. of course, nobody gets everything right and i l nobody gets everything right and i have been very open about that and i understand the frustrations with me and the conservative party. what and the conservative party. what recrets and the conservative party. what re . rets do and the conservative party. what regrets do you — and the conservative party. what regrets do you have? _ and the conservative party. what regrets do you have? the - and the conservative party. what| regrets do you have? the election and the conservative party. what. regrets do you have? the election is about the future, _ regrets do you have? the election is about the future, we _ regrets do you have? the election is about the future, we have _ regrets do you have? the election is about the future, we have been - about the future, we have been talking at various things. that is not the question. _ talking at various things. that is not the question. do _ talking at various things. that is not the question. do you - talking at various things. that is not the question. do you have l talking at various things. that is l not the question. do you have any regrets about any decisions taken during your premiership? everyone will have their _ during your premiership? everyone will have their own _ during your premiership? everyone will have their own views. - during your premiership? everyone will have their own views. what - during your premiership? everyone| will have their own views. what are our will have their own views. what are your views? — will have their own views. what are your views? l _ will have their own views. what are your views? i wish _ will have their own views. what are your views? i wish we _ will have their own views. what are your views? i wish we had - will have their own views. what are your views? i wish we had made i will have their own views. what are i your views? i wish we had made more rouress your views? i wish we had made more progress on — your views? i wish we had made more progress on the _ your views? i wish we had made more progress on the waiting _ your views? i wish we had made more progress on the waiting lists. - your views? i wish we had made more progress on the waiting lists. i - progress on the waiting lists. i have been very open about that. i wish we had made more progress, something that was important to me, and we have not made as much progress as i would have liked. fundamentally, the election is about the future, i have had thisjob 18 months and you have seen what i have done, my most importantjob was to make sure the economy was back in good health and it now is. that is the thing you have to think about going forward. we are in a position, i said once we got things back to where they were, we could start cutting taxes, we have put out a proposal. cutting taxes, we have put out a ro osal. ., cutting taxes, we have put out a --roosal. ., ., ., ., cutting taxes, we have put out a --roosal. ., . ., ., proposal. you have made that point alread . it proposal. you have made that point already- it is _ proposal. you have made that point already. it is important _ proposal. you have made that point already. it is important to _ proposal. you have made that point already. it is important to make i already. it is important to make because people _ already. it is important to make because people are _ already. it is important to make because people are asking i already. it is important to make | because people are asking about already. it is important to make i because people are asking about the election. that is the important issue at stake. i'm going to continue cutting taxes for people at every stage of your life, whether you are a pensioner, setting up a small business, or a young couple trying to buy your first time, i will deliver financial security, and the alternative is keir starmer it will put taxes up.— will put taxes up. which he disputes- _ will put taxes up. which he disputes- l _ will put taxes up. which he disputes. i have _ will put taxes up. which he disputes. i have to - will put taxes up. which he disputes. i have to say. i will put taxes up. which he disputes. i have to say. hej will put taxes up. which he i disputes. i have to say. he spent the last three _ disputes. i have to say. he spent the last three days _ disputes. i have to say. he spent the last three days avoiding i disputes. i have to say. he spent i the last three days avoiding anybody about putting up council tax and i'm going to make sure that does not happen. going to make sure that does not ha en. . . going to make sure that does not ha en. , , , , ., going to make sure that does not hauen. , , , , ., happen. this is the biggest tax take under the conservatives _ happen. this is the biggest tax take under the conservatives for - happen. this is the biggest tax take under the conservatives for many i under the conservatives for many years, by the way. another question. are you considering leaving the echr to push— are you considering leaving the echr to push forward — are you considering leaving the echr to push forward your _ are you considering leaving the echr to push forward your rwanda - are you considering leaving the echr to push forward your rwanda policy l to push forward your rwanda policy which _ to push forward your rwanda policy which is _ to push forward your rwanda policy which is devoid _ to push forward your rwanda policy which is devoid of— to push forward your rwanda policy which is devoid of any— to push forward your rwanda policy which is devoid of any strategic i which is devoid of any strategic thinking — which is devoid of any strategic thinking and _ which is devoid of any strategic thinking and is _ which is devoid of any strategic thinking and is inhumane? i which is devoid of any strategic thinking and is inhumane? applause we are talking _ thinking and is inhumane? applause we are talking at _ thinking and is inhumane? applause we are talking at the _ thinking and is inhumane? applause we are talking at the european i thinking and is inhumane? applause we are talking at the european court| we are talking at the european court of human rights. you we are talking at the european court of human rights.— of human rights. you know what ha--ened of human rights. you know what happened last — of human rights. you know what happened last month? _ of human rights. you know what happened last month? 15 - of human rights. you know what happened last month? 15 other l happened last month? 15 other european countries signed a statement about illegal migration and know what they said? all of them agreed, italy, the netherlands, they all agreed that having the ability to remove illegal migrants to a safe third country was an important part of the solution to this problem because it removes the incentive for them to come in the first place. you have your view, and i disagree. you had a point about the policy, and i say i disagree with you, 15 other european countries just a few weeks ago decided they agreed with me. i have been crystal clear, that is why we have passed a new piece of legislation to address the concerns of the courts, they raised concerns and that is why we passed a new piece of legislation and that is why the flights will go ahead, and when it comes to the echr, i believe everything we are doing is compliant with international obligations but if a foreign court including the european court forces me to choose, between our country's national security and membership of that court, i'm going to choose this country's national security every single time. country's national security every single time-— country's national security every single time. when you say it is a foreian single time. when you say it is a foreign court. — single time. when you say it is a foreign court, i _ single time. when you say it is a foreign court, i caught _ single time. when you say it is a foreign court, i caught that i single time. when you say it is a foreign court, i caught that we i single time. when you say it is a i foreign court, i caught that we were part of setting up, as the uk, and it also has a british judge sitting on it, so why is it a foreign court? we were part of establishing it. but it is in we were part of establishing it. emit it is in strasbourg. we were part of establishing it. but it is in strasbourg. but _ we were part of establishing it. but it is in strasbourg. but we - we were part of establishing it. but it is in strasbourg. but we were - it is in strasbourg. but we were art of it is in strasbourg. but we were part of setting _ it is in strasbourg. but we were part of setting it _ it is in strasbourg. but we were part of setting it up. _ it is in strasbourg. but we were part of setting it up. my - it is in strasbourg. but we were part of setting it up. my point l it is in strasbourg. but we were| part of setting it up. my point is clear, we part of setting it up. my point is clear. we are — part of setting it up. my point is clear, we are compliant - part of setting it up. my point is clear, we are compliant with - part of setting it up. my point is| clear, we are compliant with the rules and regulations and the issue is too important to not be able to have a great, and i want to deliver on the thing i promised, i want to get the flights off, and remove the incentive, to build a deterrent, and we disagree on this, you think it is fine for people to come, they should not be removed, but i do not think thatis not be removed, but i do not think that is right for our country and that is right for our country and thatis that is right for our country and that is why i'm prepared to do what it takes to get the problem resolved. it takes to get the problem resolved-— it takes to get the problem resolved. ., ., ., i] resolved. you did not say that? i said, are resolved. you did not say that? i said. are you _ resolved. you did not say that? i said, are you considering - resolved. you did not say that? i said, are you considering leaving the echr — said, are you considering leaving the echr question— said, are you considering leaving the echr question what - said, are you considering leaving the echr question what you - said, are you considering leaving| the echr question what you have said, are you considering leaving - the echr question what you have put words _ the echr question what you have put words in my— the echr question what you have put words in my mouth. _ the echr question what you have put words in my mouth. i— the echr question what you have put words in my mouth.— the echr question what you have put words in my mouth. i appreciate what ou have words in my mouth. i appreciate what you have said- — words in my mouth. i appreciate what you have said. the _ words in my mouth. i appreciate what you have said. the man _ words in my mouth. i appreciate what you have said. the man in _ words in my mouth. i appreciate what you have said. the man in the - words in my mouth. i appreciate what you have said. the man in the black l you have said. the man in the black t—shirt. off you go. fix, you have said. the man in the black t-shirt. off you go.— t-shirt. off you go. a point i would like to make. _ t-shirt. off you go. a point i would like to make, only _ t-shirt. off you go. a point i would like to make, only to _ t-shirt. off you go. a point i would like to make, only to other- like to make, only to other countries _ like to make, only to other countries in _ like to make, only to other countries in the _ like to make, only to other countries in the world - like to make, only to other countries in the world that| like to make, only to other. countries in the world that do like to make, only to other- countries in the world that do not subscribe — countries in the world that do not subscribe to _ countries in the world that do not subscribe to the _ countries in the world that do not subscribe to the echr, _ countries in the world that do not subscribe to the echr, russia - countries in the world that do not| subscribe to the echr, russia and belarus _ subscribe to the echr, russia and belarus. �* . ,, belarus. applause with the _ belarus. applause with the greatest i belarus. applause - with the greatest respect, belarus. applause _ with the greatest respect, we do not need a foreign court to tell us. it need a foreign court to tell us. it is not a foreign court! i believe l is not a foreign court! i believe everything _ is not a foreign court! i believe everything we _ is not a foreign court! i believe everything we are _ is not a foreign court! i believe everything we are doing - is not a foreign court! i believe everything we are doing is - is not a foreign court! i believe - everything we are doing is compliant with our international obligations but if i am put in a position to choose between those things i'm going to put our country first every single time and i make no apology about that. we single time and i make no apology about that. ~ ., ., g; :: single time and i make no apology about that. ~ ., ., ;;:: , , about that. we have about 30 seconds left. i am about that. we have about 30 seconds left- i am 19- — about that. we have about 30 seconds left- iam19- i— about that. we have about 30 seconds left. iam 19. lam— about that. we have about 30 seconds left. i am 19. i am not— about that. we have about 30 seconds left. i am 19. i am not looking - about that. we have about 30 seconds left. i am 19. i am not looking to - left. i am 19. i am not looking to net left. i am 19. i am not looking to get a mortgage _ left. i am 19. i am not looking to get a mortgage in _ left. i am 19. i am not looking to get a mortgage in the _ left. i am 19. i am not looking to get a mortgage in the next - get a mortgage in the next parliament. _ get a mortgage in the next parliament. is— get a mortgage in the next parliament. is there - get a mortgage in the next parliament. is there any i get a mortgage in the next - parliament. is there any policy that would _ parliament. is there any policy that would affect — parliament. is there any policy that would affect people _ parliament. is there any policy that would affect people my— parliament. is there any policy that would affect people my age? - that you could offer me? are you stud inc that you could offer me? are you studying at _ that you could offer me? are you studying at the — that you could offer me? are you studying at the moment? - that you could offer me? are you studying at the moment? we - that you could offer me? are you studying at the moment? we do | that you could offer me? are you i studying at the moment? we do not have any time _ studying at the moment? we do not have any time for— studying at the moment? we do not have any time for these _ studying at the moment? we do not have any time for these niceties. - have any time for these niceties. one policy. have any time for these niceties. 0ne policy-— have any time for these niceties. one oli . ~ one policy. when you get your 'ob, we are one policy. when you get your 'ob, we going _ one policy. when you get your 'ob, we going to i one policy. when you get your 'ob, we are going to cut i one policy. when you get your 'ob, we are going to cut yourfi one policy. when you get your 'ob, we are going to cut your taxes h one policy. when you get yourjob, we are going to cut your taxes and | we are going to cut your taxes and you can spend more of your money on what you want. you can spend more of your money on what you want-— what you want. sorry, i had to cut that short- _ what you want. sorry, i had to cut that short. that _ what you want. sorry, i had to cut that short. that is _ what you want. sorry, i had to cut that short. that is it _ what you want. sorry, i had to cut that short. that is it for _ what you want. sorry, i had to cut that short. that is it for now. - what you want. sorry, i had to cutj that short. that is it for now. well done for your stamina. that short. that is it for now. well done foryourstamina. prime done for your stamina. prime minister, done foryourstamina. prime minister, thanks forjoining us. that is our leaders' special over for now but we have got the plaid cymru special and wales on monday and we are back after that for the usual routine, and then another special, both from birmingham. we will have adrian ramsay from the green party and nigel farage from reform uk. but for now, from everybody here, thank you and goodbye. tonight at ten: with two weeks to go until the general election, the leaders of the four main parties face tough questions from an audience of voters. the prime minister was asked about allegations that bets had been placed on the timing of the general election. i was incredibly angry, incredibly angry to learn of these allegations. it's a really serious matter. we'll be getting the very latest reaction from our politcal editor chris mason. also tonight... i've been watching you, and you watching me. the legendry hollywood actor donald sutherland, star of the hunger games films and mash, has died at the age of 88.