moment asjoe biden and donald trump face in atlanta. good evening and welcome to newsnight, live on weeknights and packed full of political vitamins, interviews and — tonight — insights about the rematch betweenjoe biden and donald trump that kicks off in three and a half hours. donald trump's are playing, it has just arrived in atlanta. and we are waiting for him to disembark from that. it has landed for at least three minutes but no sign of him. last time 73 million americans watched the debate. polls suggest this time it could be even higher — with 115 million voters likely to tune in. lets go straight over to to cnn hq in atlanta, who are hosting the debate, to the spin room, to speak to catriona perry, the bbc�*s chief dc presenter. any sense of mood? absolutely, the excitement is _ any sense of mood? absolutely, the excitement is building _ any sense of mood? absolutely, the excitement is building already - any sense of mood? absolutely, the excitement is building already and i excitement is building already and we are at georgette university, normally a basketball arena nicknamed as the thriller dome so we will see if it will be a thriller night whenjoe biden and donald trump take to the stage. they are at the studio, a little bit away from the studio, a little bit away from the spin room, because this is a letter firsts and one is at the campaigns have moved away from the traditional committee on presidential debates, to have their own arrangement between the campaign on cnn so we have a lot of firsts including the fact that microphones will be muted and the countdown timer and also with the sitting president debating live on television with a past president, that has not happened. presidents have ran against each other before but never in television debates. so look forward to. as well as the idea that the microphones will be muted and also, i understand that there will not be any audience in the room. interesting fred trump because he likes to feed off an audience. he does he likes to feed off an audience. he: does and there will be no audience because they will be standing at podiums, people were unsure, they will be standing at podiums eight feet apart so if they are muted we will not be able to hear anything but they can hear each other if one continues to talk over so we will see if that works out and speaking to both campaigns of the last half an hour, they do not seem worried about the lack of audience, particularly with donald trump, he loves the energy that he gets but they say he is so on message to sit forward and he will do for the american people and you would expect the same from joe biden but we can expect quite personal contributions from both of them and we have seen the campaign get nasty this week, they both have attack advertisements where it is getting into who has a better character to be president because they both have track records and we know what they do in the oval office. :, ~' , :, and we know what they do in the oval office. :, ~ i. :, :, and we know what they do in the oval office. ., ~' i:, :, :, , office. thank you for 'oining us. ve office. thank you for 'oining us. very exciting h office. thank you for 'oining us. very exciting night _ office. thank you forjoining us. very exciting night ahead. - megyn kelly is the host of the megyn kelly show and podcast, who has moderated six republican primary debates. and, megyn, i want to ask you about how you think donald trump will approach tonight's debate. first, here's what he told a rally last week about his possible strategy... should i be tough and nasty and just say you are the worst president in history? or should i been nice and calm and let him speak? crowd boos. nice and calm and let him speak? megyn kelly, lovely to have you joining us. some division in the trump camp, disagreement about whether he plays to the base or he goes for that smattering of undecided voters who can make a difference in the swing states? i do not think he — difference in the swing states? i u not think he must choose, he can go rough on president biden and be merciless in attacking his record. while still being somewhat polite. i think the challenge for trump is to be polite but i think the challenge forjoe biden is to be upright. for an hour and a half straight, taking questions. which is not the norm for him. trump should not hold back, he should be tough, as tough as ever, on all ofjoe biden's policies that have become deeply unpopular across the board. it isjust have become deeply unpopular across the board. it is just the interrupting that got him in trouble interrupting that got him in trouble in the first debate in 2020.- in the first debate in 2020. donald trump coming _ in the first debate in 2020. donald trump coming from _ in the first debate in 2020. donald trump coming from the _ in the first debate in 2020. donald trump coming from the plane - in the first debate in 2020. donald trump coming from the plane and| trump coming from the plane and we have heard from katrina perry, the microphones will be muted. will that mean it could disturb the flow of the debate? i mean it could disturb the flow of the debate?— mean it could disturb the flow of the debate? ., ,:, ., the debate? i find that so annoying! peole the debate? i find that so annoying! peeple forget _ the debate? i find that so annoying! people forget that _ the debate? i find that so annoying! people forget that it _ the debate? i find that so annoying! people forget that it is _ the debate? i find that so annoying! people forget that it is called - people forget that it is called broadcastjournalism people forget that it is called broadcast journalism for a people forget that it is called broadcastjournalism for a reason. the broadcast piece matters and this is why people like you and me, we put on make—up before going out, the visual presentation is part of the game. and the audio presentation as part of the game. stopping the microphones, stuffing them out when the other candidate is not speaking takes away an important and fun dynamic of the debate, some of the best comebacks come and they can be quick, just that little quick quip when the other person is done speaking and you can tell he has done and you get that zinger in. those are great moments. tv gold. and the interaction of the audience, not much, but the energy that the audience brings two particularly with donald trump. you audience brings two particularly with donald trump.— audience brings two particularly with donald trump. you talk about the challenge _ with donald trump. you talk about the challenge and _ with donald trump. you talk about the challenge and you _ with donald trump. you talk about the challenge and you are - with donald trump. you talk about the challenge and you are slightly| the challenge and you are slightly supercilious, could joe biden stay upright, but you have talked a lot aboutjoe biden prospect mental agility so what does he have to do tonight? he agility so what does he have to do toni . ht? , agility so what does he have to do toniaht? , :, ., :, ., , :, tonight? he needs to avoid a senior moment. tonight? he needs to avoid a senior moment- that _ tonight? he needs to avoid a senior moment. that would _ tonight? he needs to avoid a senior moment. that would be _ tonight? he needs to avoid a senior. moment. that would be devastating. we have seen him lose his train of thought on the campaign trail a lot or he gets completely lost and forgets what he is saying. we have seen him refer to people who have been dead for decades as alive and tell stories about them in recent years, and if he does something like that it would be devastating. we have 100 million people watching this thing. we have 100 million people watching this thin. ~ :, ., , ., :, this thing. we have a situation where donald _ this thing. we have a situation where donald trump - this thing. we have a situation where donald trump has - this thing. we have a situation where donald trump has been j this thing. we have a situation - where donald trump has been making baseless accusations thatjoe biden is taking some sort of cognitive improvement drugs. that could backfire on donald trump because people might say you should cutjoe biden more slack? people might say you should cut joe biden more slack?— biden more slack? trump is half 'okina biden more slack? trump is half joking and _ biden more slack? trump is half joking and half— biden more slack? trump is half joking and half being _ biden more slack? trump is half joking and half being serious. i biden more slack? trump is half joking and half being serious. al joking and half being serious. a different looking joe biden at the state of union address, and we are used to seeing. i follow this very closely. i direct strong sounding joe biden is a thing of the past, it is rare to hear that so teak hear him tonight sparring, you have to be sharp, if he can do that it will settle some of the fears on his side under those considering him and if he does anything other than that, he could contain a steady posture and be ok but if he has one of those moments it would be absolute devastation. ii moments it would be absolute devastation.— moments it would be absolute devastation. if he does better, trum is devastation. if he does better, trump is a _ devastation. if he does better, trump is a great _ devastation. if he does better, trump is a great person - devastation. if he does better, trump is a great person for. devastation. if he does better, - trump is a great person for blaming everything bar his own performance from when he does not go down very well with the audience. trump could be seen as being too aggressive towards biden, overly aggressive? you have an older demographic in america and that might not go down well? , :, , ., ., america and that might not go down well? , :, , ., :, , well? older people and women, they did not like trump's _ well? older people and women, they did not like trump's behaviour - well? older people and women, they did not like trump's behaviour in - did not like trump's behaviour in 2020, they did not like how rude he seemed. toff is not the same thing as rude and it devolves to name calling and speaking over him all the time, not letting him get his point out, he will turn people off. this is a challenge becausejoe biden will be needling him and raising his least favourite topics over and over.— over and over. there is some jeepardy _ over and over. there is some jeopardy for donald - over and over. there is some jeopardy for donald trump i over and over. there is some jeopardy for donald trump in j over and over. there is some - jeopardy for donald trump in terms of the undecideds, does he want to emphasise the fact that he overturned roe versus wade? he is talking about how states can make that decision. he must calibrate that. he that decision. he must calibrate that. :, , ., , , ., that. he will not emphasise that, roe v wade _ that. he will not emphasise that, roe v wade was _ that. he will not emphasise that, roe v wade was overturned, - that. he will not emphasise that, i roe v wade was overturned, which that. he will not emphasise that, - roe v wade was overturned, which was the right decision. it is not popular. he will not fight on abortion, trump was the first republican to moderate the messaging on abortion after roe v wade, the first to say i think it is a state issue, let the states come up with their own plans and the federal government should stay out of that to do that because he understands with the electorate is to shift back to feeling the need to his right—wing base, it would make no sense. right-wing base, it would make no sense. ~ :, :, , ~ , sense. what would be the key thing that miaht sense. what would be the key thing that might swing — sense. what would be the key thing that might swing things _ sense. what would be the key thing that might swing things for - sense. what would be the key thing that might swing things for trump l that might swing things for trump tonight? ii that might swing things for trump toniaht? : :, that might swing things for trump toniaht? :. . ., , that might swing things for trump toniaht? :. : ., , ., tonight? if he can charm us. i have had a very — tonight? if he can charm us. i have had a very weird, _ tonight? if he can charm us. i have had a very weird, long, _ tonight? if he can charm us. i have had a very weird, long, difficult - had a very weird, long, difficult relationship with trump. but he can be very charming, and if trump want to charm you, you probably will be charmed. he was managing and he can be self—deprecating and make fun of himself and he is funny and he can make a himself and he is funny and he can makeajump himself and he is funny and he can make ajump about himself and he is funny and he can make a jump about us as a people or say something more poignant and reflective at this point in his life, that would win major points because we do not see that more reflective side were often although it is there. anything to show a little bit of a softer side because his base knows he can be tough and nasty and they know that and they will vote for trump even if they do not see that tonight, but having a moment like that might give him an opportunity to bring in people who think, is he all bombast or is there somebody with heart in there? thank ou ve somebody with heart in there? thank you very much- _ here in the studio, our guests tonight... ben ansell, professor of comparative democratic institutions at oxford university. and in our washington studio, nile gardiner, director at the heritage foundation, the leading conservative think tank in the us. and here too, nick. let us pick up from how this debate might move the polls are not and you have got polls? than might move the polls are not and you have got polls?— have got polls? an interesting thing about megyn _ have got polls? an interesting thing about megyn kelly, _ have got polls? an interesting thing about megyn kelly, about _ have got polls? an interesting thing about megyn kelly, about the - have got polls? an interesting thing i about megyn kelly, about the supreme court decision with the trump appointees overturning roe versus wade, a month ago i reported that donald trump has been heard to say that the issue is killing him, amongst women, which is why he did pivot and he stresses that this is a matter for the states but let's look at the polls. we have had one eye today, the new york times college poll and we can see thatjoe biden is, if it comes up in a second, on 44% and donald trump is on 48% and the polling guru for the new york times describes that as an outlier so let us be careful. but as he says, outliers can sometimes point in the direction that things are going. a second set, the new york times, this is the national polling average. we can see it tracks along, donald trump at 46%, joe biden at 45%, those are the figures without the independent candidate robert if kennedyjunior, with him it is trump at 41 and biden 39 and kennedy eight. at 41 and biden 39 and kennedy eiaht. ~ :, at 41 and biden 39 and kennedy eiaht. ~ ., :, at 41 and biden 39 and kennedy eiaht.~ ., :, i. at 41 and biden 39 and kennedy eiaht. ~ ., :, ,, ~' at 41 and biden 39 and kennedy eiaht.~ ., :, ~ ., eight. what do you think about the swim eight. what do you think about the swing states? _ eight. what do you think about the swing states? there _ eight. what do you think about the swing states? there is _ eight. what do you think about the swing states? there is an - eight. what do you think about the | swing states? there is an argument that the national— swing states? there is an argument that the national figures _ swing states? there is an argument that the national figures are - that the national figures are meaningless because they have been two examples in the last quarter—century at the person who did not get the plurality of the vote becomes president, al gore in 2000 got more than george bush and in 2016 hillary clinton more than donald trump but you must win in the electoral college so that is why the swing states are important, seven swing states are important, seven swing states are important, seven swing states we look at, six of them won byjoe biden and he is only ahead in i think one of them. wisconsin, won by biden in 2020, trump 42, biden 41, pennsylvania withjoe biden, trump 41, trump 44, biden 41 and georgia, remember that? joe biden won by 11,779, trump 44 and biden 37. joe biden won by 11,779, trump 44 and biden 31— joe biden won by 11,779, trump 44 and biden 37. thank you very much. nile gardiner. _ and biden 37. thank you very much. nile gardiner. you _ and biden 37. thank you very much. nile gardiner. you were _ and biden 37. thank you very much. nile gardiner. you were part - and biden 37. thank you very much. nile gardiner. you were part of- and biden 37. thank you very much. nile gardiner. you were part of a . nile gardiner. you were part of a very influential conservative think tank. what do you want to hear from donald trump on policy?— donald trump on policy? thank you very much. — donald trump on policy? thank you very much. for— donald trump on policy? thank you very much, for having _ donald trump on policy? thank you very much, for having me _ donald trump on policy? thank you very much, for having me on - donald trump on policy? thank you very much, for having me on the i very much, for having me on the show _ very much, for having me on the show. certainly historically it is a vital _ show. certainly historically it is a vital and — show. certainly historically it is a vital and huge debate for the american people. in terms of policy i think_ american people. in terms of policy i think that — american people. in terms of policy i think that two key issues will dominate _ i think that two key issues will dominate the debate tonight, firstly the issue _ dominate the debate tonight, firstly the issue of immigration, mass migration, _ the issue of immigration, mass migration, illegal migration and secondly, the economy, these will be the key— secondly, the economy, these will be the key areas of focus and in both areas _ the key areas of focus and in both areas donald trump has a decisive significant — areas donald trump has a decisive significant lead overjoe biden. and around _ significant lead overjoe biden. and around 10 _ significant lead overjoe biden. and around 10 million illegal migrants have crossed into the united states under _ have crossed into the united states under the _ have crossed into the united states under the biden presidency, astonishing numbers. in the american people _ astonishing numbers. in the american people have _ astonishing numbers. in the american people have really turned against the biden presidency over the immigration issue. and this is a real achilles' heel forjoe biden. real achilles' heel for joe biden. and real achilles' heel forjoe biden. and so— real achilles' heel forjoe biden. and so tonight i think there will be a strong _ and so tonight i think there will be a strong emphasis upon securing america's— a strong emphasis upon securing america's borders, how to deal with illegal— america's borders, how to deal with illegal migration. i think donald trunru — illegal migration. i think donald trunru is — illegal migration. i think donald trump is going to address the issue of the _ trump is going to address the issue of the deportation of millions of illegal— of the deportation of millions of illegal migrants from the united states— illegal migrants from the united states and that is actually a very popular— states and that is actually a very popular stance. let me put that to ben, today he has given leave to remain to the spouses of undocumented people coming into the us. how important is it thatjoe biden looks like he is in command of policy? biden looks like he is in command of oli ? , ., , , policy? nile is absolutely right, immigration — policy? nile is absolutely right, immigration and _ policy? nile is absolutely right, immigration and inflation i policy? nile is absolutely right, immigration and inflation are i policy? nile is absolutely right, l immigration and inflation are the two things— immigration and inflation are the two things that _ immigration and inflation are the two things that are _ immigration and inflation are the two things that are right - immigration and inflation are the two things that are right at - immigration and inflation are the two things that are right at the i immigration and inflation are the i two things that are right at the top of the _ two things that are right at the top of the concerns _ two things that are right at the top of the concerns that _ two things that are right at the top of the concerns that americans i two things that are right at the top i of the concerns that americans have when _ of the concerns that americans have when you _ of the concerns that americans have when you ask— of the concerns that americans have when you ask them _ of the concerns that americans have when you ask them what _ of the concerns that americans have when you ask them what their- of the concerns that americans have when you ask them what their top i when you ask them what their top concerns— when you ask them what their top concerns are _ when you ask them what their top concerns are. neither— when you ask them what their top concerns are. neither of - when you ask them what their top concerns are. neither of those i when you ask them what their top. concerns are. neither of those look good _ concerns are. neither of those look good for— concerns are. neither of those look good for the — concerns are. neither of those look good for the democrats _ concerns are. neither of those look good for the democrats right- concerns are. neither of those look good for the democrats right now. concerns are. neither of those look i good for the democrats right now and that explains — good for the democrats right now and that exulains why— good for the democrats right now and that explains why biden, _ good for the democrats right now and that explains why biden, presiding i that explains why biden, presiding over an _ that explains why biden, presiding over an economy— that explains why biden, presiding over an economy that _ that explains why biden, presiding over an economy that otherwise i that explains why biden, presiding i over an economy that otherwise looks very good, _ over an economy that otherwise looks very good, is— over an economy that otherwise looks very good, is struggling _ over an economy that otherwise looks very good, is struggling with - very good, is struggling with approval— very good, is struggling with approval ratings _ very good, is struggling with approval ratings of - very good, is struggling with approval ratings of 38%. i very good, is struggling withj approval ratings of 38%. the very good, is struggling with i approval ratings of 38%. the kind very good, is struggling with - approval ratings of 38%. the kind of approval— approval ratings of 38%. the kind of approval ratings _ approval ratings of 38%. the kind of approval ratings george _ approval ratings of 38%. the kind of approval ratings george w - approval ratings of 38%. the kind of approval ratings george w bush i approval ratings of 38%. the kind ofj approval ratings george w bush and jimmy— approval ratings george w bush and jimmy carter— approval ratings george w bush and jimmy carter had _ approval ratings george w bush and jimmy carter had but— approval ratings george w bush and jimmy carter had but not— approval ratings george w bush and i jimmy carter had but not much worse than donald _ jimmy carter had but not much worse than donald trump _ jimmy carter had but not much worse than donald trump had _ jimmy carter had but not much worse than donald trump had in _ jimmy carter had but not much worse than donald trump had in 2020. i jimmy carter had but not much worse than donald trump had in 2020. earl than donald trump had in 2020. for the uk in than donald trump had in 2020. the uk in the world there are huge ramifications of what happens in the next few months, particular what happens in ukraine, but we should be looking at this very carefully? absolutely. the funny thing is, from our perspective. _ absolutely. the funny thing is, from our perspective, inflation _ absolutely. the funny thing is, from our perspective, inflation and - our perspective, inflation and immigration _ our perspective, inflation and immigration might— our perspective, inflation and immigration might be - our perspective, inflation and immigration might be driving| immigration might be driving american _ immigration might be driving american voters. _ immigration might be driving american voters. what - immigration might be driving i american voters. what happens immigration might be driving - american voters. what happens to us is the _ american voters. what happens to us is the american — american voters. what happens to us is the american control— american voters. what happens to us is the american control of— american voters. what happens to us is the american control of foreign i is the american control of foreign policy, _ is the american control of foreign policy, and — is the american control of foreign policy. and that— is the american control of foreign policy, and that means _ is the american control of foreign policy, and that means what i is the american control of foreign i policy, and that means what happens with ukraine, — policy, and that means what happens with ukraine, whether— policy, and that means what happens with ukraine, whether trump- with ukraine, whether trump essentially— with ukraine, whether trump essentially ends— with ukraine, whether trump essentially ends military i with ukraine, whether trump essentially ends military aid i with ukraine, whether trump. essentially ends military aid to with ukraine, whether trump- essentially ends military aid to get a military— essentially ends military aid to get a military settlement _ essentially ends military aid to get a military settlement and - essentially ends military aid to get a military settlement and in - essentially ends military aid to get a military settlement and in termsj a military settlement and in terms of the _ a military settlement and in terms of the trade — a military settlement and in terms of the trade wards _ a military settlement and in terms of the trade wards which _ a military settlement and in terms of the trade wards which might i a military settlement and in terms i of the trade wards which might occur with china _ of the trade wards which might occur with china and — of the trade wards which might occur with china and the _ of the trade wards which might occur with china and the european - of the trade wards which might occur with china and the european union i with china and the european union that i_ with china and the european union that i suspect _ with china and the european union that i suspect britain _ with china and the european union that i suspect britain will- with china and the european union that i suspect britain will get - that i suspect britain will get caught— that i suspect britain will get caught up— that i suspect britain will get caught up in _ that i suspect britain will get caught up in— that i suspect britain will get caught up in. that i suspect britain will get cau:-htuin.�* :, :, caught up in. before we come back to ou, nile, caught up in. before we come back to you. nile. let's— caught up in. before we come back to you, nile, let's look— caught up in. before we come back to you, nile, let's look at _ caught up in. before we come back to you, nile, let's look at 2020. - caught up in. before we come back to you, nile, let's look at 2020. in i you, nile, let's look at 2020. in the first debate, donald trump spoke overjoe biden and joe biden's temper became frayed. i'm not going to answer the question because... why won't you answer... the question is... radical left... will you shut up, man? listen, who is on your list, joe? this is sow _ who's on your list? don't ever use the word "smart" with me, don't ever use that word. oh, give me a break. because, you know what? because you were a president screwing things up. you were a senator... you were the worst president america has ever had. joe, let me... come on. this is not about my family or his family, it's about yourfamily, the american people. name one group that supports you, name one group that came out and supported you, go ahead. think — we have time. we don't have time to do anything... no, no, think about it. on the question of the approach from donald trump to the debate, he is inclined to be controversial but could it be that, as he said at the weekend, should i be naughty or nice, how do you think he is going to play it? nice, how do you think he is going to -la it? ., nice, how do you think he is going to -la it? :, ,., nice, how do you think he is going to -la it? :, _, ., to play it? that is a great question- _ to play it? that is a great question. so _ to play it? that is a great question. so trump i to play it? that is a great i question. so trump clearly is in to play it? that is a great _ question. so trump clearly is in the lead right— question. so trump clearly is in the lead right now and that is shown in nearly— lead right now and that is shown in nearly every single swing state, with the — nearly every single swing state, with the exception of wisconsin where — with the exception of wisconsin where it— with the exception of wisconsin where it is a draw at present. so he is in the _ where it is a draw at present. so he is in the driver's seat here. joe biden, — is in the driver's seat here. joe biden, on— is in the driver's seat here. joe biden, on the other hand, is really in a very— biden, on the other hand, is really in a very difficult position and i think— in a very difficult position and i think that _ in a very difficult position and i think that it's important for this debate — think that it's important for this debate to— think that it's important for this debate to be civil, to focus really upon _ debate to be civil, to focus really upon the — debate to be civil, to focus really upon the policy issues and i do think— upon the policy issues and i do think the — upon the policy issues and i do think the donald trump, he will want to look— think the donald trump, he will want to look statesman—like and very presidential, of course, in this debate, — presidential, of course, in this debate, not least because he has already— debate, not least because he has already a — debate, not least because he has already a significant lead in the polls — already a significant lead in the polls. biden is in real trouble in terms _ polls. biden is in real trouble in terms of— polls. biden is in real trouble in terms of his levels of unpopularity. his approval rating, —16 points according _ his approval rating, —16 points according to the average. i think trump _ according to the average. i think trump will— according to the average. i think trump will approach this in a sort of statesman—like manner. we will have to _ of statesman—like manner. we will have to see — of statesman—like manner. we will have to see ifjoe biden gets very angry, _ have to see ifjoe biden gets very angry, as — have to see ifjoe biden gets very angry, as he did in the last presidential debate. i don't think that being rude tonight is going to actually— that being rude tonight is going to actually play very well with the american people. they are really focused — american people. they are really focused on — american people. they are really focused on the policies, actually, that really— focused on the policies, actually, that really matter to the american people _ that really matter to the american people at— that really matter to the american people at this very crucial time. let people at this very crucial time. let me — people at this very crucial time. let me pick up on that now. we can speak to a democratic supporter. let's ask about the mechanics of that and picking up on what nile said about the tone of this. with the microphone is being muted, with the lack of the audience, is there a danger this debate will be very stilted and actually, both men might slightly be put off kilter? i don't thinkjoe biden well. i think donald trump obviously relishes a crowd. he likes the jeering and the heckling and so forth certainly of his opponents but i think thatjoe biden will be on his game. you his opponents but i think that joe biden will be on his game. you think he will be on — biden will be on his game. you think he will be on his _ biden will be on his game. you think he will be on his game _ biden will be on his game. you think he will be on his game but _ biden will be on his game. you think he will be on his game but what i biden will be on his game. you think he will be on his game but what sort| he will be on his game but what sort of game should it be? he was on his game in the state of the union but thatis game in the state of the union but that is such a very different occasion?— that is such a very different occasion? :, , ~ occasion? that is right, i think he will be on — occasion? that is right, i think he will be on his— occasion? that is right, i think he will be on his game _ occasion? that is right, i think he will be on his game because i occasion? that is right, i think he will be on his game because he . occasion? that is right, i think he i will be on his game because he will be appointed, he will be energetic and he will be focused on issues that matter to people such as, for instance, reproductive freedom. i think that is on the ballot when i talk to my voters, my constituents. they are also worried about losing, for instance, their protection that they have are earned under obamacare because republicans talk about repealing it. they worry about losing their $35 a month insulin, which has been earned through the inflation reduction act, whichjoe biden signed into law. fire inflation reduction act, which joe biden signed into law.— inflation reduction act, which joe biden signed into law. are they also worried about _ biden signed into law. are they also worried about exactly _ biden signed into law. are they also worried about exactly what - biden signed into law. are they also worried about exactly what we - biden signed into law. are they also worried about exactly what we were | worried about exactly what we were talking about a minute ago, about the problems of the border and the massive influx of migrants, isn't that major? that is what ben ansell was saying here earlier?— was saying here earlier? sure, but remember. _ was saying here earlier? sure, but remember. one — was saying here earlier? sure, but remember, one of— was saying here earlier? sure, but remember, one of the _ was saying here earlier? sure, but remember, one of the most - remember, one of the most interesting things is thatjoe biden and senate republicans actually negotiated a compromise with regard to the border and a fix to the immigration system and the person that blocked the passage of that compressor dill compromise legislation was none other than donald trump. why? because he didn't want to deliver a win tojoe biden and that proved to be something that was very frustrating to the american people. 50 was very frustrating to the american ”eole. ., was very frustrating to the american --eole. ., ., i. was very frustrating to the american --eole. ., ., ~ was very frustrating to the american --eole. ., ~ , , people. so how do you think, because ou are an people. so how do you think, because you are an insider, _ people. so how do you think, because you are an insider, how _ people. so how do you think, because you are an insider, how do _ people. so how do you think, because you are an insider, how do you - people. so how do you think, because you are an insider, how do you think l you are an insider, how do you think on that whole question of turning the attack which will come migration to a positive forjoe biden, how will they be gaining that? i to a positive forjoe biden, how will they be gaining that? i think that the more _ will they be gaining that? i think that the more that _ will they be gaining that? i think that the more that joe _ will they be gaining that? i think. that the more that joe biden talks that the more thatjoe biden talks about how he is trying to solve that problem, he recognises that, he is trying to solve it but... and democrats and republicans who want to solve it have been frustrated by donald trump and folks like him. i think that it really focuses kind of the debate on, ok, do you want to move forward or do you want to kind of get paralysed by the politics of obstruction? the of get paralysed by the politics of obstruction?— obstruction? the politics of obstruction, _ obstruction? the politics of obstruction, ben _ obstruction? the politics of obstruction, ben ansell? . obstruction? the politics of. obstruction, ben ansell? we obstruction? the politics of - obstruction, ben ansell? we have obstruction? the politics of _ obstruction, ben ansell? we have had the olitics obstruction, ben ansell? we have had the politics of— obstruction, ben ansell? we have had the politics of obstruction _ obstruction, ben ansell? we have had the politics of obstruction in _ the politics of obstruction in america _ the politics of obstruction in america since the early obama years. it didn't_ america since the early obama years. it didn't help barack obama to try and argue — it didn't help barack obama to try and argue that the republicans were not negotiating in good faith. they were not_ not negotiating in good faith. they were not and that strategy worked and in _ were not and that strategy worked and in part— were not and that strategy worked and in part it's the reason why the supreme — and in part it's the reason why the supreme court has so many republican justices, _ supreme court has so many republican justices, because during the tail period _ justices, because during the tail period of— justices, because during the tail period of obama's period in office, he was _ period of obama's period in office, he was unable to get through the supreme — he was unable to get through the supreme courtjustices he wanted. i expect— supreme courtjustices he wanted. i expect complaining about obstruction probably— expect complaining about obstruction probably won't work as a strategy forjoe _ probably won't work as a strategy forjoe biden in here. on the other hand, _ forjoe biden in here. on the other hand. it— forjoe biden in here. on the other hand, it allows him to talk about trump's — hand, it allows him to talk about trump's ability to try and derail american — trump's ability to try and derail american politics. i think that part. — american politics. i think that part. the _ american politics. i think that part, the polarisation argument, which _ part, the polarisation argument, which is — part, the polarisation argument, which is the third biggest concern for americans, that i think biden will come — for americans, that i think biden will come up on. do for americans, that i think biden will come up on.— for americans, that i think biden will come u- on. ., ., will come up on. do you want to come back in on that. _ will come up on. do you want to come back in on that, raja _ back in on that, raja krishnamoorthi? i back in on that, ra'a krishnamoorthi? ., ~' ., krishnamoorthi? i would like to resond, krishnamoorthi? i would like to respond, thank _ krishnamoorthi? i would like to respond, thank you _ krishnamoorthi? i would like to respond, thank you for - krishnamoorthi? i would like to respond, thank you for the - respond, thank you for the opportunity. obama was a two term president. in part, ithink opportunity. obama was a two term president. in part, i think people understood he was committed to solving their everyday problems and i think thatjoe biden needs to do the same. i think he will do the same. i think that the question that he needs to put to the american people is this: do you want someone who is fighting a fire or your family or someone fighting for himself? we know that donald trump is consumed by himself, his own grievances and his enemies list. i just don't think that is where the american people are.— american people are. let's look be ond american people are. let's look beyond where _ american people are. let's look beyond where the _ american people are. let's look beyond where the american - american people are. let's look. beyond where the american people are and look in more detail about the whole question of what the next nine months actually brings. nile, if donald trump wins this election, and we might hear some of this material being covered tonight, it could essentially remake the world order. well, that is a great point. i think there _ well, that is a great point. i think there will— well, that is a great point. i think there will be significant changes on there will be significant changes on the international stage and if you see a _ the international stage and if you see a conservative victory in the united _ see a conservative victory in the united states in november, that will also mirror— united states in november, that will also mirror some of the big political— also mirror some of the big political changes that we are seeing across— political changes that we are seeing across europe as well, countries like france — across europe as well, countries like france and germany, for e> donald trump so far in his rhetoric that, actually, he in any way might be quite sympathetic to putin. i gather the heritage foundation are saying we will stubbled this aid to ukraine and change our position in ukraine. it might suggest that in ukraine, they worry more for their future under a donald trump presidency? well, i think it is significant that the russians invaded ukraine while joe biden— the russians invaded ukraine while joe biden was in office. they did not move — joe biden was in office. they did not move under donald trump, actuaiiy~ — not move under donald trump, actually i— not move under donald trump, actually. i think that is very, very significant — actually. i think that is very, very significant and also as it is significant and also as it is significant the trump administration supplied _ significant the trump administration supplied ukrainians with high—tech weaponry— supplied ukrainians with high—tech weaponry to defend themselves, something of course that the obama administration previously strongly opposed — administration previously strongly opposed. i am administration previously strongly opposed. lam in no administration previously strongly opposed. i am in no doubt, administration previously strongly opposed. lam in no doubt, i administration previously strongly opposed. i am in no doubt, i think if you _ opposed. i am in no doubt, i think if you see — opposed. i am in no doubt, i think if you see a — opposed. i am in no doubt, i think if you see a second trump presidency, it will be very assertive in standing up to moscow, beijing. _ assertive in standing up to moscow, beijing, but also to iran as well. i think— beijing, but also to iran as well. i think that — beijing, but also to iran as well. i think that the united states is going — think that the united states is going to — think that the united states is going to be a lot more assertive in the middle — going to be a lot more assertive in the middle east compared to the biden— the middle east compared to the biden presidency. it is interesting ou talk biden presidency. it is interesting you talk about — biden presidency. it is interesting you talk about that, _ biden presidency. it is interesting you talk about that, about - biden presidency. it is interesting you talk about that, about china, | you talk about that, about china, because it is there a suggestion that actually if the chinese finally moved on taiwan, would there really be an american military response to that under donald trump? meiji. be an american military response to that under donald trump?— that under donald trump? well, i think that donald _ that under donald trump? well, i think that donald trump - that under donald trump? well, i think that donald trump has - think that donald trump has been very robust in the past, in terms of standing _ very robust in the past, in terms of standing up — very robust in the past, in terms of standing up to china. it is significant i think that the chinese have been— significant i think that the chinese have been a lot more menacing and aggressive — have been a lot more menacing and aggressive under the biden presidency, because they see in washington a president who is significantly weaker, actually, and a far more — significantly weaker, actually, and a far more predictable person. i do not think— a far more predictable person. i do not think the chinese well risk invasion— not think the chinese well risk invasion of taiwan if you have a second — invasion of taiwan if you have a second trump presidency, that would be second trump presidency, that would he very— second trump presidency, that would be very dangerous for china. we second trump presidency, that would be very dangerous for china.- be very dangerous for china. we can see the room _ be very dangerous for china. we can see the room is _ be very dangerous for china. we can see the room is starting _ be very dangerous for china. we can see the room is starting to - be very dangerous for china. we can see the room is starting to fill - be very dangerous for china. we can see the room is starting to fill up . see the room is starting to fill up now. we are in a situation tonight where we also have the domestic policy but we also have the idea that international policy is also something that is very polarising for americans, something that is very polarising foramericans, huge something that is very polarising for americans, huge divisions in america? ., , , ' for americans, huge divisions in america? ., , , , ., america? completely different to the exerience america? completely different to the experience we _ america? completely different to the experience we have _ america? completely different to the experience we have in _ america? completely different to the experience we have in the _ america? completely different to the experience we have in the united - experience we have in the united kingdom. — experience we have in the united kingdom. for— experience we have in the united kingdom, for whatever— experience we have in the united kingdom, for whatever else - experience we have in the united kingdom, for whatever else the i kingdom, for whatever else the conservative _ kingdom, for whatever else the conservative party, _ kingdom, for whatever else the conservative party, the - kingdom, for whatever else the conservative party, the labourl kingdom, for whatever else the - conservative party, the labour party and lih— conservative party, the labour party and lib dems — conservative party, the labour party and lib dems disagree _ conservative party, the labour party and lib dems disagree on, - conservative party, the labour party and lib dems disagree on, they- conservative party, the labour party and lib dems disagree on, they all. and lib dems disagree on, they all agree _ and lib dems disagree on, they all agree on— and lib dems disagree on, they all agree on funding _ and lib dems disagree on, they all agree on funding ukraine. - and lib dems disagree on, they all agree on funding ukraine. over- and lib dems disagree on, they all| agree on funding ukraine. overthe last few— agree on funding ukraine. overthe last few years. _ agree on funding ukraine. overthe last few years, republicans - agree on funding ukraine. overthe last few years, republicans have i last few years, republicans have shifted _ last few years, republicans have shifted not — last few years, republicans have shifted not necessarily— last few years, republicans have shifted not necessarily to - last few years, republicans have | shifted not necessarily to support the russians— shifted not necessarily to support the russians but— shifted not necessarily to support the russians but to _ shifted not necessarily to support the russians but to oppose - shifted not necessarily to support i the russians but to oppose funding ukraine _ the russians but to oppose funding ukraine it — the russians but to oppose funding ukraine it was— the russians but to oppose funding ukraine. it was interesting - the russians but to oppose funding ukraine. it was interesting to- the russians but to oppose funding ukraine. it was interesting to see i ukraine. it was interesting to see what _ ukraine. it was interesting to see what happens _ ukraine. it was interesting to see what happens with _ ukraine. it was interesting to see what happens with speaker- ukraine. it was interesting to see . what happens with speakerjohnson when he _ what happens with speakerjohnson when he looked _ what happens with speakerjohnson when he looked at _ what happens with speakerjohnson when he looked at the _ what happens with speakerjohnson when he looked at the intelligencel when he looked at the intelligence that the _ when he looked at the intelligence that the cia — when he looked at the intelligence that the cia and _ when he looked at the intelligence that the cia and fbi _ when he looked at the intelligence that the cia and fbi gave - when he looked at the intelligence that the cia and fbi gave him - when he looked at the intelligence. that the cia and fbi gave him about what was _ that the cia and fbi gave him about what was likely— that the cia and fbi gave him about what was likely to _ that the cia and fbi gave him about what was likely to happen _ that the cia and fbi gave him about what was likely to happen if- that the cia and fbi gave him aboutl what was likely to happen if america stopped _ what was likely to happen if america stopped funding _ what was likely to happen if america stopped funding ukraine, _ what was likely to happen if america stopped funding ukraine, he - what was likely to happen if america stopped funding ukraine, he backed| stopped funding ukraine, he backed off immediately. _ stopped funding ukraine, he backed off immediately. i— stopped funding ukraine, he backed off immediately. i do _ stopped funding ukraine, he backed off immediately. i do wonder- stopped funding ukraine, he backed off immediately. i do wonder if- off immediately. i do wonder if something _ off immediately. i do wonder if something like _ off immediately. i do wonder if something like that _ off immediately. i do wonder if something like that might- off immediately. i do wonder if. something like that might happen under— something like that might happen under president _ something like that might happen under president trump. _ something like that might happen under president trump. if- live from london. this is bbc news with polls placing the candidates neck and neck,joe biden and donald trump go head—to—head in a high stakes battle for the white house. the bbc tracks down a people smuggler behind a channel crossing — in which a seven—year—old girl died. in northern ireland politicians clash on funding for the region's health service in the second major tv debate of the general election campaign. hello i'm martine croxall. in around three hours all eyes will be on atlanta, georgia — asjoe biden and donald trump go head in the first televised presidential debate. its being held unusually early, before either candidate is officially named as the nominee of his respective party. it also comes just two weeks before mr trump is sentenced for his conviction of 3a counts of falsifying business records. microphones will be muted except for when the candidate is asked to speak. the debate will take place without an audience, and neither candidate is allowed to bring notes or props, though they will have a pen and paper. let's go live to my colleague katrina perry, who is in the spin room. tonight this is the cnn spin room, ordinarily a basketball arena here at georgia tech university, locally known as the thriller dome. we would be tonight? we will have to wait and see. we do know it doesn't idea firsts, the first time ever in the area of television debates that there is a sitting president taking on a former president. that means