tomorrow. the law firm of andrew weissmann is standing by for a full preview. and later, cc abrams has not spoken extensively about the indictments in fulton county, until now. i asked her about the strength of the case, and her own political future. >> okay, i hope you're sitting down for what i'm about to say. because you might find it a little disorienting. here goes. we are exactly one year out from election day of 2024. one year, exactly. look, i know that for the better part of this decade we've heard a lot of talk about certain elections being the most consequential of our lifetimes. but this one actually kind of feels like it is. a brand-new poll out today from the new york times shows donald trump leading president biden in five out of six swing states. it also shows biden leading trump by just one point, among young voters across the state. there's a while to go, but you still have to pay attention to these numbers, even at this point. so that's the state of the race. at least according to that one poll. and here are the stakes, according to joe biden. >> there comes a time, 16 generations, where the world changes. it changes in a very short time. >> are we at that time? now >> we are. and i think what happens in the next two or three years is going to determine what the world looks like for the next five or six decades. >> what is happening now and over the next few years, and what happens a year from today, both determine what the world looks like for decades. and what is happening now is a pretty high level of dysfunction in washington, and growing divisions across the country. a republican run house is barely towards shutting down the government, and completely failing at the same time to support our allies overseas. they passed an aid package this week for israel, but not for ukraine, not for humanitarian aid in gaza, and not without -- cuts to the irs, which only adds to the deficit. they're not going to pay their taxes. in other words, the bill is dead on arrival in the senate. eating any much needed aid will be delayed. and if speaker mike johnson's delay here wasn't bad enough, there is also republican senator tommy tuberville, who is continuing to block military promotions. that affects readiness in the middle east. even republicans are now fed up, as they should be, given the state of the crisis that we're watching overseas. on the ground in the region today, secretary of state tony blinken met with palestinian authority president abbas in the west bank, as the biden administration privately -- to take additional steps to avoid civilian casualties in gaza. this is all happening as protests about u.s. support for israel break out across the country, with thousands gathering in d.c. this weekend. we're also seeing a sudden and disturbing surge in hate crimes amid the war on israel. antisemitic incidents have risen about 400% since the october 7th terrorist attack. and anti islamic hate crimes have risen almost 200%. cornell university actually canceled classes on friday, citing the extraordinary stress its campus and its students have been under, amid violent antisemitic threats. a pakistani american student at johns hopkins university just detailed being targeted, surrounded, and accosted by other students for being perceived as pro palestinian. that is just a taste of the divisions we've seen this week. if we look one week back, we saw deep divisions over gun legislation in the wake of the latest horrific mass shooting in lewiston, maine. if we look one week ahead, we will see stark divisions over abortion rights, as voters head to the polls in just two days in states including virginia, ohio, and pennsylvania. this is the kind of country the next president will have to deal with. they will be faced with big problems, both here and around the world. so the question one year from now is, who is best equipped to lead the country through turmoil? and between now and then, with so much division here, how do we grapple with the crisis there? joining me now is democratic congressman perjeta jayapal, she's chair of the professional caucus. thank you so much for joining me today. i want to start with your calls for the cease-fire in gaza, given the horrific impact on civilians we've all been watching. there have been a range of calls for a cease-fire's, and different versions of it. so i just want to ask, you when you call for a cease-fire, are you saying you want israel's military operation to end full stop and not restart, or the parameters of a military campaign that you would be comfortable with at any point? >> yes, and thanks for having me on. when i called for a cease-fire, that means a stoppage immediately of israel's bombing, and attacks, airstrikes, as well as the ground attacks. in order to make sure that we can get the hostages back, and that we can get humanitarian aid into gaza, and that we have a plan for how to move forward. i don't think the question is about whether we should allow israel to take out hamas, and whether all the international allies would be in favor of taking out hamas. that is absolutely true. the question is how to do that. and there is increasing toll, both with civilians in gaza, violence in the west bank, but also a question of whether you kill thousands and thousands of palestinians, and thousands of children, and you bomb refugee camps. even if you are taking out some hamas leaders, and it is unclear to me exactly who is being taken out. but let's say you are. the reality is, if you keep doing that, you will radicalize the population and another hamas will arise. most of the top leaders of hamas or not even in gaza, they're in other countries. and so i think we have to be clear that we need a cease-fire, and when i say cease-fire, i understand that you can't ever have a permanent cease-fire. that's not really realistic. but what you do is you call for a cease-fire. it is a negotiated settlement, which is why i say that you can at least have a cessation of hostilities immediately. but, i do think that we need to recognize that this crisis is not going to end and hamas is not going to be taken out, unless there is a political situation that allows both israelis and palestinians to coexist with self determination next to each other. and that is something that can't happen while israel is continuing to bomb and kill innocent civilians in gaza. >> there is no question there needs to be a diplomatic solution here. congresswoman, it sounds like you are open to israeli's using military action if it's more targeted, if the hostages are out, if there's assistance in. you're not determining that, but you're open to a resumption of that. i just want to ask you, speaker nancy pelosi says a cease-fire is a gift to hamas. hillary clinton said the same thing, and people demanding a cease-fire don't understand hamas. it sounds like you're not agreeing with that. what would you say about their views? >> i just don't agree with that, and i think that if you look at the history of how these conflicts have happened, i'm not talking about progressives who have said this. i'm talking about national security experts, experts on terrorism, who have written extensively about instances where countries have gone in, including israel, into lebanon, including the united states going into iraq. and what happens when you do not -- when you essentially go in without a plan for how you move forward? you might succeed, jen, in the immediate short term. you may be able to declare victory is taking out one leader or another. you do not solve the problem. and i think this is very important, and i also think it's important to recognize that the united states is increasingly isolated by -- we are not ready to call for a cease-fire. that we are standing with israel, no matter what that allows impunity for israel to continue to do what it has done and is doing to palestinians. killing children -- gianna, i just have to say. one palestinian child is being murdered every ten minutes at the rate of killings that is happening now. nobody has forgotten what hamas has done to israel on october 7th. i have condemned that. it is horrific, it is a terrorist act, israel absolutely should and the allies, including the united states, should go after hamas. should try to and and take out hamas, and find other solutions. but this is not the way to do it. and the united states is the largest backer of military aid to israel the idea that we cannot do anything about what israel is doing, i do not think is -- it's just not credible. the reality is that if israel continues to go in that direction, i think taxpayers, who were paying for that, deserve to be able to know that the united states is holding israel accountable to what president biden has rightly said in calling for israel to follow international humanitarian law. they are not doing that right now, john. >> congresswoman, i think this is such a complicated, heartbreaking, difficult issue. which is why it's so important to discuss it with people like you. i did want to ask you, because there's a lot of impacts here at home, as we're seeing. a friend of yours, congressman receded tlaib, released a video on friday about the war. in case our viewers haven't, i want to play a piece of it. >> we will remember in 2024. >> now, you've been very outspoken about the need for a cease-fire, about the horrors we've talked about, quite a bit in gaza as well. she is accusing president biden as supporting what she described as the puck genocide of palestinians in gaza. do you agree with that? >> this is heartbreaking. rashida is the only palestinian american woman in the united states congress. she has a grandmother who lives in israel, in the west bank. and the reality is that she is bringing her lived experience to bear. i don't think we can say we want diversity of views, but then not listen to what those views are. i think genocide is a very, very complicated term. i believe that we have to do everything we can to elect joe biden president. you know that i have been an extremely strong supporter of president biden on the domestic front. and i think that it's important that we recognize, though, that the reality, and i've said this to the white house privately for many weeks and then recently publicly, because i think it is important to recognize. that we have a very divided country, as you well know. you have said the polls really don't reflect where people are. i agree with you. but i will tell you this is the first time, jen, that i have felt like the 2024 election is in great trouble for the president. and for our democratic control, which is essential to moving forward. because these young people, muslim americans, arab americans, but also young people, see this conflict as a moral conflict. a moral crisis. and they are not going to be brought back to the table easily, with if we do not address this. >> no doubt, congresswoman. i think we are seeing a generational response to what's happening overseas. language also matters, and genocide is defined as the intentional destruction of an entire ethnic or religious group, and a lot of people do we listen to statements made by members of congress. so i just want to make clear, do you agree with the description of this as genocide, and the presidents role in that? >> i am not willing to say that yet. but i will just tell you that rashida is not the first person to say this. there are credible reports from agencies across the world and the united nations has said we are hurtling towards the genocide of palestinians. that is not an isolated view. but i think it is important for us to focus on what is actually here at the core, which is over 9000 -- i think it somewhere near 9300 palestinians have been killed. over 3000 children, 6600 palestinian children killed. and i think that we are our 2.3 million palestinians going to go? we are they going to go? the attacks on a refugee camp, we're talking about half a mile for this refugee camp. that is the density of how many people live in that area. when you release bombs that are 2000 pound bombs in a dense area, which is something that the united states has signed on and said we will not do that, but israel has not said that. that is what israel did in the jabalia refugee camp. 2000 pound bombs, john. and so the horrors are terrible. i think that there are families of hostages, israeli hostages, who have gone to the icc and said what hamas did is also a war crime, and qualifies as genocide. and i think we have to make sure that we are taking into account all of the innocent civilians, israeli and palestinian. but at the end of the day, humanitarian law exists because we have learned from our past, that you cannot solve these problems by targeting innocent civilians. and the united states has to be very, very clear about this. >> congresswoman primala jayapal, thank you for joining me, for all of your clarity, and for speaking out about these issues. coming up next, donald trump is set to testify in his own trod -- fraud trial in new york city. -- what they're expecting to see. and later, my wide-ranging interview with stacey abrams. i'll ask her about the fulton county indictments, whether trump should serve time in prison, it what she thinks the political landscape looks like one year out from election day. we're back, after a quick break. day wee 'rback, after a quic break. break. is is spring semester at fairfield-suisun unified. they switched to google tools for education because there's never been a reported ransomware attack on a chromebook. now they're focused on learning knowing that their data is secure. 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now, we've seen this tactic work for trump in the world of politics, calling investigations which hunts, insisting on perfect phone calls, attacking prosecutors as deranged, and telling anyone who will listen about stolen elections. and his people tend to follow him. but in a court of law, where the entire point is to settle the facts of a matter based on the law, trump's usual strategy is clearly falling short. he and his team have insisted that their fragile activity was just business as usual. nothing to see here. this is just the real estate business in new york, and you all just don't get it out there. for instance, trump's lead lawyer said that the inflated value of trump's assets simply reflects the change in a complex and sophisticated real estate development corporation. that's it, nothing to see here. and for trump brothers john junior and eric, this is about them, two leaders of the company, it's all just a classic case of accountants being accountants. >> before even having a day in court, i'm apparently guilty, guilty of fraud for relying on my accountants to do, wait for it, accounting. >> i just don't seem to recall anything about this. it i operate properties, i don't focus on appraisals. >> for all of their talk about pouring concrete, give me a break with. that not focusing on appraisals, -- to their direct knowledge about the fraudulent financial statements. their direct knowledge, of course. words for the course words for th >> -- was 33,000 square feet, when it really is 11,000. that's quite a difference. john junior then passed along those questions to a trump organization lawyer, noting that there was a quote, insane amount of stuff there. one week later, the younger donald trump still signed off on a statement that falsely claimed the penthouse was 30,000 square feet. so basically, he echoed the lie, even though he knew better. and then there's eric trump, who initially testified that he didn't know anything about the financial savings until recently. when confronted by the evidence, he acknowledged that he was aware of them as far back as 2013. see, the trump skin gaslight to the cameras outside the courthouse. they may do that tomorrow. they can post online about their complaints and conspiracies, which they certainly will still do. they can describe trump's mood as defiant, which is how they're describing how he's feeling going into tomorrow. but ultimately, that playbook doesn't work inside the confines of a courthouse. and this strategy that has worked for donald trump so well in politics might end up actually costing him big-time in this case. our in-house law firm is here to discuss all of it, and they're coming up after a very quick break. up after a very quick break. quick break. a prime target for cyberattacks. but the same ai-powered security that protects all of google also defends these services for everyone who lives here. ♪ right now get a free footlong at subway. like the new deli heroes. buy one footlong in the app, get one free. it's a pretty big deal. kinda like me. order in the subway app today. i'm sholeh, and i lost 75 pounds with golo. kinda like me. i went from a size 20 to a size 6. before golo, nothing seemed to work. i was exercising for over an hour every day. it was really discouraging. but golo's so easy, the weight just falls off. when the murrays discovered gain scent beads, they fell in love with the irresistible scent. ♪ ♪ huh, huh, so did their dog roger. ♪ ♪ gain scent beads keep even the stinkiest stuff smelling fresh. she runs and plays like a puppy again. his #2s are perfect! he's a brand new dog, all in less than a year. when people switch their dog's food from kibble to the farmer's dog, they often say that it feels like magic. but there's no magic involved. 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>> it's a hobson's choice. i think both are a problem, so you're absolutely right at the start to say this trial is not going well for donald trump. there is no doubt about that. the judge has already basically found fraud. trump has a choice tomorrow, does he continue the 440 times of asserting the fifth amendment or not? the case for him taking the fifth amendment is he's basically going to probably purge or himself one way or another, if he takes the stand. he also is known for giving meandering testimony, so in that deposition, that lasted like seven hours or something like that, he kind of randomly says different things about different -- at all times. and the jean carroll thing, he went so far as to say if you are a star historically, then you're allowed to group women. so if he does actually take the stand, i expect the new york attorney generals office to basically give him a lot of rope. on the other, and if he doesn't take the stand, then new york law, because it's a civil case, not a criminal, says the judge can infer everything against you. so you can read trump's silence to be the absolute worst. so, you know, i can't imagine having a clients like this. it's a little hard -- >> you're probably not a candidate for being hired. andrew, what do you think here? i guess he could not take the stand, i guess you're saying. even though he is scheduled to. he could plead the fifth 400 times again. what do you think his best tactic here is? >> well, he obviously has to appear in court. he is subpoenas as a witness, so he will showed up. whether he decides to answer all of the questions i think remains to be seen. i think some of that goes to the strategy that the attorney generals office uses. now, as you noted, there are a lot of things that they could cross examine him on that go to the sides of his apartment, how he valued mar-a-lago, sort of black and white issues that i think it's extremely hard for him to come up with a consistent theory that's not going to get him in trouble. but they could also go big in the questioning, and asked about all of the lies that are laid out, according to the government, in the d.c. case and in the florida case. in other words, it's relevant that the attorney generals office says they're dealing with somebody who sort of lies as we live and breathe. and so i think when it gets to questioning that might go big, he could take the fifth and say if it relates directly to those outstanding criminal cases, i'm not going to answer. but i think he really is going to be sort of forced to answer strategically, because as neil says, if he doesn't answer, this whole case is over. the court gets to say i'm finding against you just based on your fifth amendment. >> so these cases are all very different. there's a lot of cases donald trump is navigating right now. but if you're jack smith, fani willis, what are you watching for? they all watch each of those cases, what are you looking for? >> two things. one, procedure, to. substance which trials are going one, because they all have to work in some sort of a sequence. so with respect to the trial tomorrow, that's not, fair because that's already started. and you're just watching, is that guy donald trump a different animal when he's on the stand then when he's out in front of the cameras? my suspicion is not, but trump is afraid. he's always been afraid of being questioned, particularly under oath. the guys afraid of being questions in the republican debate. so that's why he's not going, and we all know that the truth is not exactly an element of republican debates. but nonetheless, he's afraid of even showing up there. so given that, i think you're going to be watching what kinds of things might we get him to answer in a court. >> andrew, real quick before we let you to go, what you expect the headline to be tomorrow, when the day wraps? >> i think it's going to be about his incredible answers about the size of the mar-a-lago evaluation, and about the size of his trump tower apartments. i think those are such concrete, clear things that i think that something that newspapers are going to latch onto. because everyone can sort of understand clear black and white issues, and i don't see a way out for trump in giving an explanation here. >> andrew weissmann, neal katyal, thank you both for joining us. lots to watch tomorrow, we'll be on tomorrow night at eight. we'll talk about it. next, one-on-one with stacey abrams. she has some thoughts about whether conviction can change anyone's mind about donald trump. he -- and what we do and should expect from public officials. that conversation is coming up after this very quick break. after this very quick break. students in a new kind of classroom. ♪ using our technology to power different ways of learning. ♪ harnessing ai to plant new beginnings. ♪ so when minds grow, opportunities follow. right now get a free footlong at subway. like the new deli heroes. buy one footlong in the app, get one free. it's a pretty big deal. kinda like me. order in the subway app today. my frequent heartburn had me taking antacid after antacid all day long but with prilosec otc just one pill a day blocks heartburn for a full 24 hours. for one and done heartburn relief, prilosec otc. one pill a day, 24 hours, zero heartburn. >> well, there are lots of factors that led to joe biden's victory in georgia in 2020. one of them was undoubtedly a massive effort to drive up voter turnout, led by stacey abrams and a network of activists. one of the places where that effort plays off was in fulton county, which is now the home to the historic indictment of donald trump and 18 codefendants. cc abrams had not spoken extensively about this case until i spoke down with her for a very wide ranging conversation this week. >> let's dig into fulton county, because you have not spoken extensively about the case against donald trump and his codefendants. let me just start with, what is your reaction to the indictment? >> i believe in our justice system, and as a former attorney, i respect very much the importance of allowing the judicial system to play itself out. to let the process unfold. i think that the district attorney has done a new -- job of building the cases that she's built. we have seen four people plead guilty early on, and we know that there are additional defendants, including the former president. the responsibility that we have is to keep our eye on the ball, which is that this is about election conspiracy and attempting to undermine how our process works. no politician is entitled to it, i know that personally. but we are all in titled to trust the process. and when that process is threatened by outside actors who are willing to undermine election security and undermine and commit fraudulent at -- acts to achieve their ends, then they are forwarding the word of the people. yes, we have the right to question systems. absolutely. but what we do not have the right to do is manufacture information and manufacture crises in order to achieve political ends. >> so you have of course run for office in georgia, you've hinted at you don't necessarily think that republicans in georgia will be moved by these indictments, or this process, unless there's something significant that happens. i heard that, analyzed it as a conviction. do you think something like that could play out in the court system, between now and next november? is that even possible? >> i think the speed of the trials will be entirely determined by the judge and the evidence presented. and the defense is presented. we don't know if the defense is going to -- i would say that in politics, people have fairly hard and belief systems. and those who have seen the former president and action over the last seven years, they know who he is. i am not certain that the outcome of this case itself will shift their beliefs, because it's a question of whether you believe in him, whether you like what he did in office. those are two different dynamics. and there are those who may reviled his behavior but celebrate the outcomes. and that's the case where i think no one who shares my political values should get comfortable. we should not presume that the inputs necessarily connect to the outputs. and there are those who may not care for the persona of donald trump, or even his actions, but do you believe that he is the standard for what they want to see, and that's the place where i'm doing political analysis, we should focus. we should focus on what good we can get done, and not presume that a conviction is going to necessarily believe -- change the belief system of someone who likes what he does. >> that's such an interesting point. because intellectually, many people whose share our views might say that if he is convicted then that will change peoples minds. it sounds like you're saying it may not. it probably won't. >> i grew up in a region of the country where politicians got indicted a lot and still kept their jobs, or came back. >> there are certain minimum requirements in georgia law under the r.i.c.o. statute, as you reference, including jail time. but we're talking about a former president here. there's reviews on this. if he is convicted, do you think he should serve the minimum general choir meant? >> my belief is that there is a status associated with holding the highest office in the land. but that does not exonerate you, or exempt you from having to face punishment. i would argue that depending on what he is convicted of, if he is convicted, there will certainly be a conversation about how to hold him accountable. and if jail time is appropriate, i believe that the court and the prosecution will negotiate what that looks like. >> and determine, nobody is above the law. >> nobody is above the law. however, we recognize if there are different needs for communities. there are people who are given not protections, because they are better people, but protections because they face different outcomes. i think it is disingenuous to believe that a former president it's going to be treated the same in terms of incarceration. we have to understand that there are threats that come along with having held that job that will have to be taken into account when determining punishment. >> and they will determine that through the legal process, you are saying you would be comfortable with their determination. >> absolutely. >> i want to ask you about threats, because this is something that is just been on the rise. i know that you have been the subject of threats, many people have. a man was just indicted for threatening fani willis, as well as of course the fulton county sheriff. fani willis revealed earlier this year that her office was receiving some pretty vital messages, which i am not going to quote. but extremely vile and offensive and threatening. how much do you think the former president's rhetoric has contributed to these types of threats that we're seeing against prosecutors, and others in the legal system? >> it is absolutely connected. the former president has been obliged in his willingness to use -- to make his points. i think unfortunately, he ignores that people who hear him do not see it as rhetoric. they see it as instructional. and as somebody who has seen my threat level increase when he sent out a tweet or makes a comment, i know that there's connective tissue between his willingness to demean and undermine, and to cast dispersions, and the response of the public to say that this is an instruction manual for how we should respond and defend donald trump, or defend some of the ethos that we think is true. >> you've been outspoken about the impact that he and others have had on suppressing voters and voter laws across the state. his role in speaking out against what donald trump did leading up to 2020, and some of the republicans, has received a lot of contention. it was all over the indictment, maybe led in part to the indictment. do you worry that that's going to give him and others a free pass for what they've done to suppress voters in the past? the people won't forget about that? >> it already has. brian kemp did not commit a crime, which is what donald trump called on him to do. and i applaud his refusal to commit a crime. i applaud his refusal to overturn an election that was rightfully conducted. but, that does not create a hero. doing your job is the expectation we should have. and one of the challenges of the last eight years has been a lowering of our threshold for what we expect of public officials. it is insufficient that you are lauded for simply doing the job you are hired to do. and then you get to erase the bad you continue to do. the work done by brian kemp and brad raffensperger to undermine access to the election for average georgians continues to reverberate. and it is a terrible, terrible stain on our democracy. you don't get to claim that you are a defender of democracy when you're still engaged in behavior that undermines it. i can very easily separate yes, thank you brian kemp from not supporting a terrible auction, but that does not exempt you from the bad actions you've already committed. >> more of my conversation with cc abrams is coming up after this break. you'll hear her thoughts on the race for president, as we mark one year to election day. stay with us. one year to election day stay with us stay with us right now get a free footlong at subway. like the new deli heroes. buy one footlong in the app, get one free. it's a pretty big deal. kinda like me. order in the subway app today. - [female narrator] five billion people lack access to safe surgery. thousands of children are suffering and dying from treatable causes. for 40 years, mercy ships has deployed floating hospitals to provide the free surgeries these children need. join us. together, we can give children the hope and healing they never thought possible. it's a mission powered by love, made possible by you. give today. right now get a free footlong at subway. like the new deli heroes. buy one footlong in the app, get one free. it's a pretty big deal. kinda like me. order in the subway app today. >> marking a year out from the election, one of the crucial battleground states for donald trump leads joe biden, and that poll is georgia. where trump is up six points. now, it's important to remember a lot can change in a year, i've done a lot of presidential campaigns, i can promise you that. but one thing that will not change is the major role georgia voters will have in deciding the outcome. nobody understands that better than stacey abrams. during our conversation, i asked her about president biden, the threat of a third party challenger, and the one issue that could tip the scales. the crisis unfolding in the middle east. >> so much is going to be centered around the outcome in georgia, because we are a year out now from the election in 2024. the turnout in the state, that was crucial to president biden's win in 2020. are you satisfied with the job he's done as president? >> i think president joe biden has been an exceptional president on a range of issues, he has overperformed expectations. he has navigated incredibly difficult circumstances, and he has shown that he is willing to stand with the people of georgia, with the people of this country, to move the nation forward. we have to remember what we face if we want to continue to hold on what we've had. but we can't ignore the fact that peoples lives are harder. and this is not because of the president, it is because of the global issues and international challenges, and market conditions, and a whole host of things that don't happen to you when you're sitting at your kitchen table. but for elected officials and those of us who want to see people show up and vote, and participate, and reelect joe biden, we have to meet people where they are. they have baked in the successes they've seen. they need to know what's next. and i think president biden is doing a great job of looking at what that could look like, and painting that picture. >> one of the groups that has been traditionally democratic voters, that has been dissatisfied with the president in recent weeks is the muslim american community. given his support for israel, and their military response to the terrorist attack. let me start with the substance. do you agree with what those have been calling for, a cease-fire? >> i agree with secretary blinken and with senator john, and others. we have a humanitarian crisis unfolding. and let's begin with this. the october 7th attack on israel's unfathomable. it is horrific, and it cannot be allowed to stand. they have the right to defend themselves, and i am proud that the united states stands with israeli democracy. we also know that families are facing bombardment, food shortages, medical shortages, they are landlocked because the rafah gate is insufficient for their exit. and unfortunately, again and again, they have faced the extraordinary trauma, not only of the tragic loss of life, but the loss of children's lives. we have to be able to allow israel to defend itself, but also hold them accountable for the humanitarian cost of that defense. and so i believe that the cease-fire is one of the tools that could be considered. but there has to be humanitarian operation that does recognize that innocent civilians are paying the price for a terrorist organization's actions. >> that's politics. we're talking politics about all of this, but there is this possibility of a third party challenger. they've kept that option on the table, there are a number of names that are thrown out there, the argument is that the american people are dissatisfied with both donald trump and joe biden, and a percentage of people want an alternative. what do you make of that argument, but also what do you think the impact would be on the state of georgia, a key state, in determining the outcome here, if there's a third party candidacy? >> while i believe that if you can stand for office and you are qualified, it is your right to do so, i think the structural nature of elections in the united states for the presidency tend to diminish the utility of a third party. i think that the satisfaction with president biden is strong and high, i do not see a third party candidate making any -- in georgia or many other places. >> could it help elect donald trump in georgia? could it help him win georgia? >> i have not seen that third party candidacy will have any ill effect. >> i want to ask you about the vice president, because she has been under a huge amount of scrutiny through her entire time in office. i think there's a lot of reasons for this. but i want to ask you, as a prominent woman of color who's run for office, do you think that she would be receiving the same critiques if she was white? >> no. >> no, not at all? >> no. we will always question the person behind the person. but we cannot ignore the misogyny and racism that remain very prevalent in our politics. and for those behaviors that don't rise to misogyny or racism, there's also just a difference. our expectations are set for the traditional white male president. >> that's what it's always been. >> it's what it's always been. we are not always great with new. but more importantly, i know that if you filter through the critiques, if you think about how she has -- there is inextricably linked to race and gender. i applaud the poise with which she has responded. >> have you ruled out running for office in the future? >> no. politics is a part of what i am, and part of what i do. my approach is to do the work. politics is one of the tools that i can use to do so. the work that i do, supporting small businesses and defending diversity, equity, and inclusion. the work i'm doing with rewiring america on electrifying everything. all of those are facets to what i believe in most importantly, which is that we should have the right to succeed. the freedom to be successful, the freedom to dream of what can be, and politics is one of the tools that i can use. but for right now, i'm focusing on some other things. >> thank you to stacey abrams for spending a bunch of time with me earlier this week. i've got some exciting announcements about some guests that will be joining me on the show tomorrow night. that's coming up, after a quick break. that's coming up, after a quic break. break. right now get a free footlong at subway. like the new deli heroes. buy one footlong in the app, get one free. it's a pretty big deal. kinda like me. order in the subway app today. do you struggle with occasional nerve aches kinda like me. in your hands or feet? 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(inspirational music) you're probably not easily persuaded to switch mobile providers tha for your business.ble. but what if we told you it's possible that comcast business mobile can save you up to 75% a year on your wireless bill versus the big three carriers? have we piqued your interest? you can get two unlimited lines for just $30 each a month. there are no term contracts or line activation fees. and you can bring your own device. oh, and all on the most reliable 5g mobile network nationwide. we have a jam-packed show on wireless that works for you. it's not just possible. tap for tomorrow night. michael coleman will join us to recap trump's testimony in his new york fraud tria the great, one and only steve kornacki will break down elections across the country this week. pennsylvania governor, josh shapiro, will join me as well. that's all coming up tomorrow night at eight pm. that does it for me today. stay right where you are, because there is much more news straight ahead, on msnbc.