we have enough that do exist. >> i thought it was much ado about nothing. look, i know you don't want to talk about it. this is why -- this is the reason i wrote the book. this is why you have conversations with people who don't look like you so that you can have a degree of comfort with them to be able to discuss these things and you know their intentions. so as i always say and i've said to you since i met you, and you know that, if you don't have a friend who looks -- doesn't look like you, you're not doing it right. >> i hear you. look, i got a lot of black friends, but none like you. i tell you why i thought it was relevant, one, always happy to talk about what i say. i'm more inclined to talk about what i do versus what other people do when they want to talk about what i said. say. but we'll leave that to the side. people don't follow these issues. the reason i thought meghan markle was really impressive to me was, one, talking about your pain ain't easy. >> it's not. >> even with oprah winfrey who may be the most em ppathic pers i've seen on television. >> you said what? oprah said that? you can't believe it, right. >> she's real. she's real, beautiful to watch. why is the right coming after meghan markle? i thought they were about anti-elitism. i thought they were about 1776 again. why are they coming after her for saying that the royals didn't like the shade of the baby? why doesn't the kid have any standard? why does she lie? what does this do for her, what does this do for her husband? >> because they're absolutely willing to believe that -- i think they believe that the mental health angle of it may be correct, right, that the maybe postpartum depression part of it may be -- >> why would harry feel that way? it's not contagious. >> but they're not willing to believe the racism or racist part of it. what does it say about the people who are coming after her? and there are a lot of people who are -- a number of people out there coming after her. they're doing it because they want to be relevant. catas that's it, nothing more, nothing less. >> it's more pernicious than that to me. there are always people looking to hate. it works great on the internet. it was so weird to me -- >> it says more about them than it says about her. >> look, again, i didn't -- i'm a pretty good judge of credibility. i've been observing human behavior for 25 years. she had no motive, nothing to gain. she's not suing. why would so many people on the right think it's important that this brown person was messed up for saying how these white people didn't like the color of her baby? and then, look, the mental health stuff to me was a home run. to discuss pain -- forget illness. to discuss pain that your husband was worried about, he didn't know how to handle it, he felt weird about it, that the institution of royals didn't want you to get help. somt people live with that. the institution is your family, your job, your social standing. i was knocked out by it. i hope it helps people open up. >> people don't want to believe it. listen, people don't want to deal with the original sin of this country. people don't want to deal with racism. there are racism deniers all over. we're living in a racism denier time in the united states and in the u.k. as well. people don't want to deal with it because -- and that is, as i say to you, chris, that's the height of privilege. for you to be able to live in a world where it does not exist, or that you can deny it is the height of privilege, until harry, sadly, had this very rude awakening when all of of a sudden he got a black fiancee and the black wife and black baby. he had a rude awakening i'm glad he had this epiphany because now he knows. most people don't have to deal with it because they don't. it doesn't exist to them. if it doesn't exist, what does that mean? you can absolutely deny it. >> absolutely. and there is a comfort that people take -- and i've seen it in and around me. look, i'm not like that. so that's enough. no, only the majority can change racism. the minority can't change it. they don't have the power. it has to be that it is unacceptable to the majority on every level of systemic inequality. and now that's called an ally and there is still a lot of reflex ugliness. oh, look at them. look at cuomo trying to do anything he can, you know, to be with the black community, the brown community. there is still a stigma attached to that, too. it was like stigma fest watching that interview for me. it was. it was like -- wait, why are these conservatives attacking her for lying about the royals? it has to be a color play. how can it not be about it? >> as i said, it says -- sometimes when people speak up and say things, it reveals more about them than they want to reveal or that they should. so i think all those people who are coming after her, rather than saying -- rather than doing it with empathy or with an open mind or saying, well, rather than being -- they're being judgmental and accusatory instead of curious, why does she feel that way, why might she feel that way? >> why won't she say the name? i'm glad they didn't say the name. she's hurt, but why would she want to destroy the person? >> perhaps she has an issue. perhaps i have a shortcoming. perhaps i have an unconscious bias. until you do that, it's never going to change. >> i hear you. >> you live in that world. >> i want to put something up for you then leave you alone. covering this trial is going to be a bear with derek chauvin because there is going to be a flood of conflicting testimony from the officers at the scene. >> and? >> the problem for a jury is, what are you doing? you're trying to assess whether any other explanation other than the prosecutors makes as much sense as their story. that's beyond a reasonable doubt layman's version. when you're in the room. does anything else make as much sense as what they're saying? when you have a flood of testimony from all people involved in an event, it can get confusing fast. them adding the third degree murder charge -- i've been looking into it -- they were moved -- laura coates was spot on as always, so smart. it really goes to like almost terrorism without the political motivation, where you drive into a crowd. in new york they call it a deprived mind. they want to add it back. i think it is a window they know they have a tough case. >> i think beyond that it's also going to be the character assassination on -- during the trial. >> you'll hear that in the testimony. he seemed like he was on drugs. you know, he seemed like -- >> it doesn't have anything to do with anything except for the court of public opinion, and maybe it could sway a jury. >> if it gets into a trial, we're going to cover it, we're probably going to cover it together. it will be a bear. they have to listen, be open and -- >> i have to run. >> i love you, d. lemon. >> i love you, too, my brotha. talk to you soon. this is cnn tonight, i'm don lemon. look, we went on, we've got a lot to talk about. go with me here. no matter how you feel about this meghan markle, prince harry interview, whether you think she should have stuck it out with the royal family longer, she wasn't a royal long enough, whatever you feel, they're profiting, whatever you feel, okay, fine, i've heard all of it today. but i want to bring this to human terms, okay? okay? so, i want all of you as people who have family and children, i want you to just imagine this. imagine, right, put yourself in someone else's shoes. just imagine being told your unborn baby won't have the same privileges, won't have the same protections as everyone else in the family. imagine one of your in-laws asking questions about the color of your unborn baby's skin. >> in those months when i was pregnant, all around this same time, so we have in tandem the conversation of, he won't be given security, not going to be given a title, and also concerns and conversations about how dark his skin might be when he's born. >> what? >> and -- >> who is having that conversation? with you? what? >> so, um, there is a -- >> hold up. >> there are several conversations. >> there's a conversation with you -- >> with harry. >> -- about how dark your baby is going to be? >> potentially, and what that would mean or look like. >> conversation like that about your baby. imagine people talking that way about your baby. before your baby is even born. it's awful. but sadly it's not shocking, not at all, not to people of color. i don't think anybody who watched harry and meghan's interview could really be surprised about that. remember the racist lie about meghan being almost straight out of compton? right, that's the daily mail. straight out of compton. racism is racism. doesn't matter whether you live in a shack or a palace. prince harry says that he will never share that conversation about his son. but he tells oprah it wasn't with the queen or prince philip. >> it was not his grandmother nor his grandfather that were a part of those conversations? >> so, and harry says racism directed at meghan and their son archie, racism especially from the british press, he said, was a big part of why they stepped away from the royal family. >> did you leave the country because of racism? >> it was a large part of it. i remember that from the fund-raiser, one of the people at that dinner said to me, please don't, please don't do this with the media. they will destroy your life. >> so, let's be clear about this. the monarchy, the british monarchy is a caste system, hierarchy based on blood lines. think about that. and ask yourself again if it is a surprise that they wondered, you know, what would baby archie's skin color be. skin color has really been whispered about, talked about right out loud for centuries. as i just talked to chris about, i write about it in my book "this is a fire." what do i say to my friends about racism. i just want to share the words that i've heard and wrote about. people who were three quarters black were grifts. so on, down to the 1/64 black. these anachronistic terms offend our ears now. but the old paper bag sliding valuation of skin tone versus stature still whispers in the subconscious mind of the job interviewer and the job applicant, the loan officer, and the loan applicant, the teacher and the student, the cop and the citizen. we'd like to think that we have moved beyond all that, but have we really? now we can add, duchess, princess and prince to that list. meghan and harry's story is a story of how hard it can be to change institutions, to change societies and cultures. how hard it is to talk about race sometimes. now, we haven't heard from the royal family since meghan and harry's interview with oprah tonight. some people will say we haven't heard from the other side. but they didn't listen to one of their own. they let him go. and somehow this painful story for a real couple, their son, their unborn daughter, somehow it's just because it's another chapter of a culture wars on the right, it has become that. fox news, of course, fox news, apparently thinks that racism magically disappears if you have enough money. >> although the royal couple now lives in a $14 million mansion, duchess meghan maintains they are just trying to get back to the basics. >> it's hard for me to believe they are the victims in this. we know prince harry got $20 million when his mother died. there is so much money it's hard to pity them. >> they're going to have plenty money the rest of their lives. i don't know what the point of that interview was. >> what does money have to do with -- what does that -- money takes away racism and makes it not a this can? come on, y'all, all of you. when you're living in privilege you don't see racism. even when it's happening right before your eyes. even when you see a white police officer with his knee on the neck of a black man begging for his life, 8 minutes 46 seconds. by the way, the trial of police officer derek chauvin in the death of george floyd set to begin tomorrow morning. the new poll finds 60% of black americans describe it as murder. only 28% of white americans said this was murder. i'm going to talk to a member of floyd's family later on in the show, and all of this is happening as president joe biden, his $1.9 trillion covid relief bill goes back to the house wednesday for a final vote. a bill that could give desperately needed aid to people who can't pay rent or put food on the table. or build that path while the gop was stoking the outrage machine over dr. seuss. what has happened to the gop? what are they running on if not relief for desperate americans? they're running on empty, pointless culture wars and tying themselves up into knots over a former president who is in the rearview mirror. >> i could say, you know, that's it, it's over, it's done. that's just too easy. >> that's exactly what you said. remember? >> we've had a hell of a journey. i hate it being this way. oh, my god, i hate it. from my point of view, he's been a consequential president. but today, first thing you'll see, all i can say is count me out. enough is enough. >> that was then. that's when the capitol was still being cleaned up after a deadly riot. this is now. republicans like lindsey graham are back in thrall to a twice impeached former president. >> there is something about trump. there is a dark side and there's some magic there. what i'm trying to do is just harness the magic. to me donald trump is sort of a cross between jesse helms, ronald regan and p.t. barnum. >> magic? it is nothing but an empty trick. it's a con. the last administration brought us insurrection, division and racism. and that's the last thing america needs. president joe biden is about to give one of his top priorities, his covid relief bill without support from even one single republican. is the gop making a big mistake here? plus the palace in turmoil over harry and meghan's nrp view with oprah. >> they were willing to lie to protect other members of the family, but they weren't willing to tell the truth to protect me and my husband. with our highest concentration of prebiotic oat intensely moisturizes over time to improve skin's resilience. aveeno® healthy. it's our nature™. so you want to make the best burger ever? 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because the bill has the bipartisan support of the american people. >> it does. i mean, most polls show more than a majority, vast majority of americans say that they support this, which is almost certainly why republicans were not out there railing against the bill. they weren't railing against the substance -- i mean, you certainly heard some around the margins talking about the size and the scope and about the extraneous things that they said were in this bill that didn't belong in this bill. however, for the most part the republican talking points over the past week have been about something completely different, which is the culture wars, which is dr. seuss and things that they know really galvanize, particularly the trump base, especially at a time when this same base was told by the former president that they should support big direct payments. in fact, bigger than what the democrats had in their bill. so that's a big reason why, for the most part, we heard them side stepping the criticism of this bill. >> governor kasich, you said the bill is overstuffed, no one expects republicans to sign onto a massive spending package, but a lot of the party would rather focus on dr. seuss, on mr. potato head, fanning the culture wars. i mean, it's not even red meat for the base. it's a steady diet of cancel culture. >> no, i mean, look, don, my sense of this is i would really hope we could have been at 1-2, 1-3, republicans committing to vote for that. that's how a negotiation starts. let's trim it back. you can't go back to what you said as republicans. after all biden was elected president. on the republican side, i don't think they had the votes people willing to stand up and say we support a package. on the democrat side they weren't interested in a compromise. i believe we live in an "i" culture, not "we" culture. as teddy roosevelt said, at the end, we go up or down together. i think the republicans made a mistake. there are a lot of people hurting. i'm worried about the inflation. do i wish the bill were smaller? but in the end it's amazing to me not one republican supported t. i'm the budget hawk among all budget hawk. >> he said he wanted republicans to be involved in biden's next package. let's listen and talk about it. >> if democrats -- my fellow democrats brought on you had no republican friends that worked in a reasonable manner, i don't subscribe to that and i am not going to get on a bill that cuts them out completely. >> do you believe you can get ten republicans on an infrastructure bill? >> i sure do. if we do it right. >> dana, do republicans have any desire to work with biden or are they going to continue to be obstructionist? >> you know, i'm going to maybe sound like pollyanna here, but i do think depending on the issue, the answer is yes, there could be room for negotiation and for compromise, depending on the issue and depending on how it ends up. and the reason for that is that particularly after the way that things went in 2020 at the polls, not just at the presidential level, but when it came to the u.s. senate and democrats taking control. there are a number of republicans i talked to who are currently serving in the senate who say that they do feel that they have to show that they know how to govern at some point, at some point soon. they are looking for ways to do that. was it on this bill? of course not. they didn't see it that way at all for the reasons that governor kasich just laid out in terms of the actual -- the politics of it, but the actual size of the bill. but, you know, infrastructure has kind of been the white whale of compromises in recent years here in washington. perhaps that is a place where they can go. but just like you heard joe manchin also say in separate interviews and also republicans say, let's just say that they have infrastructure on the table. how are they going to do it? is it going to be with government spending? is it going to be with significant tax breaks? is it going to be a combination of both? the answers to those questions will be dependent on the yes or no getting a deal. >> we had a lot of infrastructure week. so with the last administration. quick, answer for me if you can, john, manchin is signaling he's open to the filibuster reform. you have historically been behind keeping the filibuster. even if you disagree with getting rid of it, what's the alternative if republicans aren't acting in good faith? >> i think, first of all, joe manchin may be signalling to republicans -- i thought about this tonight. he may be saying, if you're not going to cooperate on anything, you're going to wear out my patience and i want to see things happen. on the infrastructure bill, i mean, listen, republicans and democrats all like filling potholes and going to bridge opening ands everything else. that's the best chance. but i would like to see compromise on health care, i would like to see compromise on immigration. i'd like to see come premize when it comes to the wealth game. there are many issues they can agree on. what i worry about, don, is republicans say or think, we'll just oppose them on everybody, call them a bunch of socialists the and win back the senate. that's not the way. that's back to the i. i want to be in charge. i want to be important. er that's baloney when it comes to serving the public. we need we, not i. >> appreciate you both. thank you. the world reacting to harry and meghan's interview with one exception. we are live in windsor next. so what do you love about your always pan? 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>> and -- >> who, who is having that conversation? with you? what? >> so, um, there is a -- >> hold up, hold up. >> there are several conversations. >> reporter: which member or members of the royal family was it harry and meghan wouldn't say. oprah winfrey on monday only saying she knows who it wasn't. >> but he wanted to make sure that i knew and if i had an opportunity to share it, that it was not his grandmother nor his grandfather that were a part of those conversations. >> reporter: leaving open the question just who could have said it. another shock, their son wouldn't be given a title or the security protections normally a afforded to members of the royal family with no reason given for why. >> the idea of our son not being safe and also the idea of the first member of color in this family not being titled in the same way that other grandchildren would be. >> reporter: racism clearly emerging from the interview with one of the key factors driving harry and meghan from the royal family. the couple saying had they only had the family's support, they would have gladly stayed. the very tabloids that harry and meghan say drove their mental health to the brink were swift to get the splashy headlines. the daily mail, u.k., saying harry twists the knife. meanwhile,ed brought chief at daily telegraph, the sussexes drop enough bombshells to sink a flotilla. >> we covered the wedding together, max. good to see you again. i can only imagine the turmoil inside the palace right now. what do you think is going on and will we see a statement from the palace soon? >> reporter: i think this is, you know, this is a family business, isn't it? this is where the challenge is, so there are some very personal stuff said there by the sussexes over in california. they're having to digest that. then you have a situation where they're profound issues having to address here. there are only three, prince harry, the queen, this is windsor where she's based, frog more cottage, the sussexes as well. they're going to have to sit around a table, a virtual table, of course, and try to work out how to deal, unpick all of the many elements here that are challenging to the monarchy. on top of the list you have them there, the race issue. their subjects they have to address somehow. the british public want answers on that's correct but they're very sensitive issues. everyone too emotional to deal with them rationally. there will be lots of aides weighing in. very complex matters. that's why it's taking longer for this to come out. i have to say, don, in the last couple of hours, reports coming out of the u.k. papers the queen was presented with a statement but she wasn't comfortable with it, didn't want to sign it off. was it too aggressive for her, written by charles or william. details will come tomorrow. >> max foster, thank you very much. appreciate your reporting. if you or someone you know please call the national suicide prevention lifeline at 1-800-273-8255. and if you want more information about how you can support suicide prevention, please go to cnn.com/impact. make sure you stay with us. more on meghan and harry's interview. shocking, oprah isn't surprised for the reason you think. >> when you say you were surprised about the skin tone conversation, were you surprised that would be true inside the palace or were you surprised they were telling you about it? 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(doorbell) rock on. tonight i'll be eating lobster thermidor au gratin. really? sh-yeah, and monkeys might fly out of my butt. make it two calzones! meghan and harry's explosive interview airing tonight on british tv. the fallout has been intense since it was broadcast here in the united states especially over the allegation that someone in the royal family expressed concern about the skin color of the couple's son an schi. so i want to bring in now tv presenter trisha goddard. i know you have been working around the clock on this story. i've been watching you all day. we have never gotten -- thank you for joining us, by the way. we've never gotten a look inside the royal family like this. what did you think when you heard meghan markle say an unnamed family member was concerned or had conversations with harry about how dark archie's skin color might be? >> shocked, but not surprised really. you know, that is what the british empire is, after all, built on. here's the problem in britain. it's very different, i think, in the united states compared to britain and there are two things -- many things at play here. for one thing, i think racism -- british people, in general, don't see racism as a problem. british white people. and they define racism as something like being beaten up for your color, very overt things. the whole concept of systemic racism while it's discussed quite a lot in the united states, it's not really discussed in britain. the united states, you had slaves on this soil. in britain, they did their slavery overseas. they went into countries like the west indies where my mother is from. they took slaves, they did their slavery offshore, if you like. i think the british approach is we didn't have slaves so we were nice, we're benign. it's not a conversation that's really been had. when you come out and say, americans say does this mean that the royal family is racist? in most british minds the people are saying, if they were racist, they wouldn't have let harry marry her. and one newspaper editor, assistant editor actually said, oh, come on, meghan's absolutely stunning. she's gorgeous. i mean, she's not black. she's not like oprah. now that's a black woman. yeah, and i was going to start one of my interviews with one of the commentators, am i pretty or am i black? there are lots of issues like that. we don't have the level of recognition. black lives matter was, you know, slightly more surface, sadly, not for -- >> well, let me continue with this issue of colorism. are you pretty or are you black, right? prince harry explained how the pressure typically felt by royals was different this time because of race. he says that it triggered him to talk to the palace. he is someone who comes from incredible privilege and he is being confronted with something that he has never had to deal with intimately before. he took a walk in her shoes. >> and it's not just privilege. i have been absolutely inundated, don, from people in mixed relationships, either racially or religious, and they can all identify with their partner who comes from, if you like, the dominant culture. i have a white jewish boyfriend, and although he knows very much -- we talk about anti-semitism, he has been shocked by some of the things that i'm always catching like, yeah, that happened. he's enraged by it. he'll confront people about it. and my thing is, and it sounds awful. if i did that every single day, i would have died 20 years ago of sheer exhaustion. you almost become used to it, which is really sad. so, you know, meghan, i was trying to explain to people that somebody -- people saying, it can't be that bad, someone asking about the color of your child. you have to add to that all the micro aggressions before that, all the comparisons with kate, the english rose. and all the micro aggression she would have gone through much earlier in her life. and harry is seeing that for the first time. now, i don't remember -- if you remember when harry was younger and was criticized for doing fancy dress and dressing up as hit letter a hitler and calling one of his friends from pakistan a slur, he's learned. i never condemn anyone for doing stupid things when they're young. he has been on a very steep learning curve. one comment that has been heard many times, maybe he's doing what charles should have done with diana, you know. >> that's right. >> he's coming out swinging for his family. he's protecting his family. he wants to keep his family together and he wants to keep the press from hounding them and creating a situation, as he said, revisiting the past. >> well, there is so much to continue to talk about and we'll have you back and discuss because as you know, as we were both covering this three years ago and here we are now, so there's bound to be more developments. thank you, trisha. it's good to see you. get some rest, please. >> i will, thank you very much for having me. >> thank you. so, papa john's founder says he is not racist and as evidence, he says he spent -- and take this, the last 20 months trying to rid his mind of the n-word, yeah, 20 months. so you want to make the best burger ever? 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(ding)... you got paid! that means... best burger ever. intuit quickbooks helps small businesses be more successful with payments, payroll, banking and live bookkeeping. the harry's razor is not the same our razors have 5 german-engineered blades designed to stay sharp so you can enjoy lasting comfort and we never upcharge you for high quality harry's. available in store and at harrys.com it's an important time to save. with priceline, you can get up to 60% off amazing hotels. and when you get a big deal... you feel like a big deal. ♪ priceline. every trip is a big deal. so take this. the founder and former ceo of papa john's pizza, going after the company's board for using the "n"-word during a meeting. he says he's been working for 20 months to get the slur out of his vocabulary. >> they paint the founder as a racist, they know he's not a racist. it's just unbelievable. and i used to lay in bed just going, how did they do this? we've had three goals for the last 20 months. to get rid of this "n"-word in my vocabulary and dictionary, and everything else. because it's just not true. figure out how they did this, and get on with my life. >> let's remember the context of his use of the word. we had a report that colonel sanders never faced backlash for calling blacks the "n"-word, and he said it in an internal diversity training for papa john's. after he said the company's sales were hurt after nfl players kneeled. he later apologized, but said the word isn't a slur. >> it wasn't a slur. it was a session on media planning and training, and i repeated something else that somebody said. i said, we're not going to say that. we don't use that kind of language and vocabulary. sure, it got taken out of context and twisted. but i hurt people's feelings, that is what matters here. and for that, i'm sorry. >> fast forward to now. he says he's worked for 20 months to get the "n"-word out of his vocabulary. just wondering why it took that long. why it was in there in the first place. new guidelines out today. the cdc releasing their advice for fully vaccinated people. what they're saying about seeing grandma, next. ♪ jackson hewitt knows times have changed... ...both how and where you work. and your taxes could have changed too. let our tax pros work for you and fight for every dollar you deserve. 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