and how can our politicians play their part? with us now to talk about what might come next is immigration minister robert jenrick. after labour's big by—election wins, lisa nandy could soon be representing you all over the world — the shadow international development minister joins me from salford. as the un calls conditions inside gaza catastrophic, we'll speak to dr hanan ashrawi — a woman who has spent decades at the heart of palestinian politics. and we'll speak to israel's former prime minister naftali bennett. good morning. you might have seen that we were going to speak to israeli president isaac herzog. he has had to postpone, but we hope he'll be with us on a future programme. in the meantime, welcome to my panel. jasmine el—gamal, a middle east expert who advised the obama administration, also best—selling historian and tv presenter simon sebag montefiore, and lucy fisher, the financial times whitehall editor and host of its political fix podcast. let's have a lok at some of the front pages of the newspapers this morning. a lot of them reflect on the death of football legend sir bobby charlton, who died yesterday at the age of 86. others focus too on the conflict between israel and hamas. the mail on sunday says, israel we will strike the head of the snake iran. the observer says, us holding israel back from strike against hezbollah. that is in lebanon. the sunday times goes with, hamas chief lives in a council house he bought in barnet. and finally, the sunday telegraph says, us tells sunak ban the iranian terror guard. welcome to the programme. jasmine, how do you assess where we are with this conflict today? two how do you assess where we are with this conflict today?— this conflict today? two weeks into the conflict, _ this conflict today? two weeks into the conflict, we _ this conflict today? two weeks into the conflict, we are _ this conflict today? two weeks into the conflict, we are at _ this conflict today? two weeks into the conflict, we are at a _ this conflict today? two weeks into the conflict, we are at a critical- the conflict, we are at a critical juncture, both when it comes to the humanitarian situation and the military situation. obviously the humanitarian crisis is growing worse by the second, over 4000 palestinians killed so far. against that backdrop, the israeli military is preparing for a ground invasion, over 300,000 troops have been mobilised and the israelis say they plan on going in and dismantling and destroying hamas. at the same time, in the west bank, just in gaza, settler violence against palestinian residents has been increasing as the interior ministry of israel has armed the settlers with assault weapons. calling them a civil defence force of sorts. finally, in terms of the region, the us is sending additional assets to the region, preparing for what could be an all—out regional war if iran or hezbollah get involved and that unfortunately today is not something we can take completely off the table. ., ~' , we can take completely off the table. ., ~ , ., i. we can take completely off the table. ., ~' , ., ,, ~' we can take completely off the table. ., ~' , ., ~' . table. how likely do you think that is? it depends _ table. how likely do you think that is? it depends on _ table. how likely do you think that is? it depends on so _ table. how likely do you think that is? it depends on so many - table. how likely do you think that| is? it depends on so many factors, but mostly — is? it depends on so many factors, but mostly right — is? it depends on so many factors, but mostly right now— is? it depends on so many factors, but mostly right now on _ is? it depends on so many factors, but mostly right now on the - but mostly right now on the deterrence capability of the us to iran and to hezbollah. they have the military assets there, giving a huge sign and also conversations behind—the—scenes to say, listen, you do not want to be a part of this, you do not want to get involved. this, you do not want to get involved-— this, you do not want to get involved. ,, ., ., , ., involved. simon, an expert on the histo of involved. simon, an expert on the history of the _ involved. simon, an expert on the history of the region, _ involved. simon, an expert on the history of the region, what - involved. simon, an expert on the history of the region, what can - history of the region, what can history of the region, what can history tell us about what it might go next? history tell us about what it might to next? ~ , ., .,, history tell us about what it might . next? ~ , ., ~ ., go next? dark times, hamas kill rate on israel killing _ go next? dark times, hamas kill rate on israel killing civilians _ go next? dark times, hamas kill rate on israel killing civilians was - go next? dark times, hamas kill rate on israel killing civilians was the - on israel killing civilians was the greatest — on israel killing civilians was the greatest atrocity against jewish people — greatest atrocity against jewish people since the holocaust and really _ people since the holocaust and really belongs injewish history with the — really belongs injewish history with the pogroms in russia in the 16 40s and _ with the pogroms in russia in the 16 40s and early 20th century and the crusades, — 40s and early 20th century and the crusades, slitting throats, raping of women, — crusades, slitting throats, raping of women, taking of hostages, all unprecedented, really. in terms of the state _ unprecedented, really. in terms of the state of israel, the greatest crisis _ the state of israel, the greatest crisis it— the state of israel, the greatest crisis it has faced since 48. israel has to— crisis it has faced since 48. israel has to scatter hamas and launch an incursion— has to scatter hamas and launch an incursion into gaza but it has a huge _ incursion into gaza but it has a huge responsibility to do so surgically and to respect palestinian civilians and every palestinian civilians and every palestinian civilians and every palestinian civilian matters as much as an _ palestinian civilian matters as much as an israeli — palestinian civilian matters as much as an israeli civilian and hamas is not the _ as an israeli civilian and hamas is not the palestinians, that is an essehtial— not the palestinians, that is an essential point. the wider conundrum for israel— essential point. the wider conundrum for israel is _ essential point. the wider conundrum for israel is how to do this respecting civilians and yet at the same _ respecting civilians and yet at the same time — respecting civilians and yet at the same time deterring hezbollah in the north, _ same time deterring hezbollah in the north, as _ same time deterring hezbollah in the north, asjasmine says. the bigger picture. _ north, asjasmine says. the bigger picture, they must be able in the future _ picture, they must be able in the future to— picture, they must be able in the future to talk to their arab friends in the _ future to talk to their arab friends in the moderate arab world, that is the future — in the moderate arab world, that is the future of the middle east. they have to _ the future of the middle east. they have to deter iran and they have to open _ have to deter iran and they have to open a _ have to deter iran and they have to open a dialogue with the palestinian authority _ open a dialogue with the palestinian authority. in the near future. they mustn't _ authority. in the near future. they mustn't do — authority. in the near future. they mustn't do anything that would make that impossible, that is essential. lucy. _ that impossible, that is essential. lucy. can — that impossible, that is essential. lucy. can i — that impossible, that is essential. lucy, can i ask you about domestic news, if i make? the by—elections this week on the double triumph for labour. where does that leave sir keir starmer and rishi sunak? labour. where does that leave sir keir starmerand rishi sunak? i think we have seen labour as much as they try— think we have seen labour as much as they try to— think we have seen labour as much as they try to ward — think we have seen labour as much as they try to ward against _ think we have seen labour as much as they try to ward against complacency. they try to ward against complacency and temper— they try to ward against complacency and temper public— they try to ward against complacency and temper public expectations, - and temper public expectations, really— and temper public expectations, really engaging _ and temper public expectations, really engaging in— and temper public expectations, really engaging in celebration i and temper public expectations, i really engaging in celebration this weekend — really engaging in celebration this weekend after— really engaging in celebration this weekend after the _ really engaging in celebration this weekend after the historic- really engaging in celebration this weekend after the historic results| weekend after the historic results in mid _ weekend after the historic results in mid bedfordshire, _ weekend after the historic results in mid bedfordshire, overturningl weekend after the historic results i in mid bedfordshire, overturning the largest— in mid bedfordshire, overturning the largest numerical— in mid bedfordshire, overturning the largest numerical majority— in mid bedfordshire, overturning the largest numerical majority have - in mid bedfordshire, overturning the largest numerical majority have in l largest numerical majority have in tamworth, — largest numerical majority have in tamworth, second _ largest numerical majority have in tamworth, second biggest - largest numerical majority have in tamworth, second biggest swing. largest numerical majority have in. tamworth, second biggest swing to labour— tamworth, second biggest swing to labour in _ tamworth, second biggest swing to labour in a — tamworth, second biggest swing to labour in a by—election _ tamworth, second biggest swing to labour in a by—election on - tamworth, second biggest swing to labour in a by—election on record. i labour in a by—election on record. keir stanner— labour in a by—election on record. keir starmer very— labour in a by—election on record. keir starmer very much— labour in a by—election on record. keir starmer very much hoping. labour in a by—election on record. keir starmer very much hoping to| keir starmer very much hoping to build _ keir starmer very much hoping to build on _ keir starmer very much hoping to build on this— keir starmer very much hoping to build on this momentum - keir starmer very much hoping to i build on this momentum particularly after the _ build on this momentum particularly after the other— build on this momentum particularly after the other by—election - build on this momentum particularly after the other by—election success. after the other by—election success in rutherglen— after the other by—election success in rutherglen and _ after the other by—election success in rutherglen and hamilton - after the other by—election success in rutherglen and hamilton west l in rutherglen and hamilton west suggesting — in rutherglen and hamilton west suggesting labour— in rutherglen and hamilton west suggesting labour is— in rutherglen and hamilton west suggesting labour is resurgent. in rutherglen and hamilton westj suggesting labour is resurgent in scotland — suggesting labour is resurgent in scotland now— suggesting labour is resurgent in scotland. now they— suggesting labour is resurgent in scotland. now they will - suggesting labour is resurgent in scotland. now they will be - suggesting labour is resurgent in scotland. now they will be trying| suggesting labour is resurgent in. scotland. now they will be trying to carry on _ scotland. now they will be trying to carry on with — scotland. now they will be trying to carry on with this _ scotland. now they will be trying to carry on with this caution _ scotland. now they will be trying to carry on with this caution strategy. carry on with this caution strategy of ensuring — carry on with this caution strategy of ensuring they _ carry on with this caution strategy of ensuring they do _ carry on with this caution strategy of ensuring they do not _ carry on with this caution strategy of ensuring they do not rock- carry on with this caution strategy of ensuring they do not rock the l of ensuring they do not rock the boat _ of ensuring they do not rock the boat or— of ensuring they do not rock the boat or lose _ of ensuring they do not rock the boat or lose the _ of ensuring they do not rock the boat or lose the lead _ of ensuring they do not rock the boat or lose the lead they- of ensuring they do not rock the boat or lose the lead they have i boat or lose the lead they have established. _ boat or lose the lead they have established. things _ boat or lose the lead they have established. things are - boat or lose the lead they have established. things are very i boat or lose the lead they have - established. things are very gloomy and conservative _ established. things are very gloomy and conservative circles, _ established. things are very gloomy and conservative circles, rishi - and conservative circles, rishi sunak— and conservative circles, rishi sunak under— and conservative circles, rishi sunak under severe _ and conservative circles, rishi sunak under severe pressure i sunak under severe pressure following _ sunak under severe pressure following the _ sunak under severe pressure following the defeats - sunak under severe pressure following the defeats this - sunak under severe pressure i following the defeats this week, looking — following the defeats this week, looking at — following the defeats this week, looking at demands _ following the defeats this week, looking at demands from - following the defeats this week, - looking at demands from particularly the right— looking at demands from particularly the right flank— looking at demands from particularly the right flank of— looking at demands from particularly the right flank of his _ looking at demands from particularly the right flank of his party _ looking at demands from particularly the right flank of his party to - the right flank of his party to forge — the right flank of his party to forge ahead _ the right flank of his party to forge ahead with _ the right flank of his party to forge ahead with tax - the right flank of his party to forge ahead with tax cuts, . the right flank of his party to - forge ahead with tax cuts, something he's forge ahead with tax cuts, something has not _ forge ahead with tax cuts, something has not wanting _ forge ahead with tax cuts, something he's not wanting to _ forge ahead with tax cuts, something he's not wanting to do _ forge ahead with tax cuts, something he's not wanting to do because - forge ahead with tax cuts, something he's not wanting to do because the l he's not wanting to do because the public— he's not wanting to do because the public finances _ he's not wanting to do because the public finances are _ he's not wanting to do because the public finances are so _ he's not wanting to do because the public finances are so tight, - he's not wanting to do because the public finances are so tight, therel public finances are so tight, there isn't the _ public finances are so tight, there isn't the headroom _ public finances are so tight, there isn't the headroom to _ public finances are so tight, there isn't the headroom to fund - public finances are so tight, there isn't the headroom to fund it. - isn't the headroom to fund it. others — isn't the headroom to fund it. others on _ isn't the headroom to fund it. others on the _ isn't the headroom to fund it. others on the right _ isn't the headroom to fund it. others on the right calling - isn't the headroom to fund it. others on the right calling for isn't the headroom to fund it. - others on the right calling for echr membership— others on the right calling for echr membership to _ others on the right calling for echr membership to be _ others on the right calling for echr membership to be back— others on the right calling for echr membership to be back on - others on the right calling for echr membership to be back on the - others on the right calling for echr| membership to be back on the table again _ membership to be back on the table again fast— membership to be back on the table again. fast forward _ membership to be back on the table again. fast forward to _ membership to be back on the table again. fast forward to next - membership to be back on the table again. fast forward to next month, i again. fast forward to next month, the kings _ again. fast forward to next month, the kings speech, _ again. fast forward to next month, the kings speech, his _ again. fast forward to next month, the kings speech, his party- again. fast forward to next month, the kings speech, his party urgingl the kings speech, his party urging him to— the kings speech, his party urging him to make — the kings speech, his party urging him to make bigger, _ the kings speech, his party urging him to make bigger, bolder- the kings speech, his party urging i him to make bigger, bolder moves, the autumn — him to make bigger, bolder moves, the autumn statement, _ him to make bigger, bolder moves, the autumn statement, pressure i him to make bigger, bolder moves, l the autumn statement, pressure for tax cuts _ the autumn statement, pressure for tax cuts will — the autumn statement, pressure for tax cuts will be — the autumn statement, pressure for tax cuts will be on, _ the autumn statement, pressure for tax cuts will be on, more _ the autumn statement, pressure for tax cuts will be on, more broadly, i the autumn statement, pressure for tax cuts will be on, more broadly, a| tax cuts will be on, more broadly, a sense _ tax cuts will be on, more broadly, a sense he _ tax cuts will be on, more broadly, a sense he needs _ tax cuts will be on, more broadly, a sense he needs to _ tax cuts will be on, more broadly, a sense he needs to reenergise - tax cuts will be on, more broadly, a sense he needs to reenergise his i sense he needs to reenergise his administration, _ sense he needs to reenergise his administration, possibly- sense he needs to reenergise his administration, possibly with - sense he needs to reenergise his administration, possibly with a l administration, possibly with a wide-ranging _ administration, possibly with a wide—ranging reshuffle - administration, possibly with a i wide—ranging reshuffle because administration, possibly with a - wide—ranging reshuffle because the reset he _ wide—ranging reshuffle because the reset he attempted _ wide—ranging reshuffle because the reset he attempted at _ wide—ranging reshuffle because the reset he attempted at conference l wide—ranging reshuffle because the . reset he attempted at conference has not moved _ reset he attempted at conference has not moved the — reset he attempted at conference has not moved the dial. _ reset he attempted at conference has not moved the dial.— not moved the dial. thank you, we will be back _ not moved the dial. thank you, we will be back with _ not moved the dial. thank you, we will be back with you _ not moved the dial. thank you, we will be back with you soon. - not moved the dial. thank you, we will be back with you soon. we - not moved the dial. thank you, we will be back with you soon. we will obviously be asking robertjenrick about the pressure for tax cuts from some within his party later in the programme. by any measure, the labour party has had a triumphant week. even seasoned political journalists didn't think they'd be able to take two ultra—safe tory seats — tamworth and nadine dorries' former constituency mid bedfordshire. but take them they did, making by—election history and overturning two massive tory majorities in the process. of course, there's a way to go until the general election, but it does make it look a lot more likely that my next guest might soon be representing you on the world stage. lisa nandy, shadow development minister, joins me from salford. good morning. good morning. the prime minister has written in one sunday newspaper today, quote, we all need to see all water supplies to gaza restored were physically possible. does labour agree? absolutely. there was a humanitarian crisis in gaza long before the events, the appalling events, of the 7th of october and there is now a humanitarian emergency that is threatening to tip over into catastrophe. a real issue about the scale of the aid that has gone in, a brief window of light over the last 24 hours, 20 trucks went across the rafah crossing, but no corridor through gaza at the moment so it can reach people in northern gaza and most importantly there is no agreement on fuel and there are serious practical challenges to overcome in order to resolve that, particularly because if there is no fuel, the water cannot flow and the hospitals cannot power up. you want water sopply — hospitals cannot power up. you want water sopply is _ hospitals cannot power up. you want water supply is restored _ hospitals cannot power up. you want water supply is restored and - hospitals cannot power up. you want water supply is restored and israel . water supply is restored and israel should let fuel in.— should let fuel in. there is a practical _ should let fuel in. there is a practical issue _ should let fuel in. there is a practical issue about - should let fuel in. there is a practical issue about fuel. should let fuel in. there is a l practical issue about fuel that should let fuel in. there is a - practical issue about fuel that is currently being dealt with. i spoke to the un humanitarian coordinator about this in the last 48 hours. the problem with fuel is israel is clearly very anxious about the prospect of hamas getting their hands on the fuel and using it to launch rockets. the un and egypt and others are trying to broker a solution to that that would ensure the fuel stays safely in the hands of the united nations and aid agencies and used for the purposes it is intended. i cannot stress the seriousness of this. there are currently incubators being turned off in hospitals for newborn babies because there is insufficient fuel to be able to keep the power on and we have to make sure that is resolved within hours not days. if israeli troops do manage to eliminate hamas, who should run gaza after that? i eliminate hamas, who should run gaza after that? ~ , ., ., after that? i think these are longer term questions _ after that? i think these are longer term questions for _ after that? i think these are longer term questions for the _ after that? i think these are longer term questions for the people - after that? i think these are longer term questions for the people in i term questions for the people in gaza, the palestinian people, for the international community to help broker, and of course for israel as well. d0 broker, and of course for israel as well. , ., broker, and of course for israel as well. ,, . broker, and of course for israel as well. i. ., ., broker, and of course for israel as well. ., ., , ., broker, and of course for israel as well. . ., , well. do you have a vision? does the labour well. do you have a vision? does the labour party — well. do you have a vision? does the labour party have — well. do you have a vision? does the labour party have a _ well. do you have a vision? does the labour party have a vision? - well. do you have a vision? does the labour party have a vision? do - well. do you have a vision? does the labour party have a vision? do you l labour party have a vision? do you want to be representing britain after the next election, what is your vision?— after the next election, what is your vision? after the next election, what is our vision? , ., ., , ., your vision? our vision remains two states living — your vision? our vision remains two states living peacefully _ your vision? our vision remains two states living peacefully side - your vision? our vision remains two states living peacefully side by - states living peacefully side by side. at the moment particularly for palestinians, for a long time, that has seemed like a very distant prospect indeed. when we have resolved the immediate crisis, when we have hostages out and sufficient amounts of aid in, we need to look at the longer term. there was a peace summit in cairo yesterday which laid bare the difficulties with doing that in the current environment. mines are very much focused on the humanitarian emergency in gaza —— minds. do focused on the humanitarian emergency in gaza -- minds. do you think israel— emergency in gaza -- minds. do you think israel should _ emergency in gaza -- minds. do you think israel should have _ emergency in gaza -- minds. do you think israel should have a _ emergency in gaza -- minds. do you think israel should have a strategy i think israel should have a strategy for what happens to gaza after a ground incursion? brute for what happens to gaza after a ground incursion?— for what happens to gaza after a ground incursion? for what happens to gaza after a round incursion? ~ ., �* ~ ., ., ground incursion? we don't know what will happen. — ground incursion? we don't know what will happen, there _ ground incursion? we don't know what will happen, there has _ ground incursion? we don't know what will happen, there has been _ ground incursion? we don't know what will happen, there has been talk - will happen, there has been talk about a ground incursion for days. we know within hours we have to significantly scale up the amount of aid that is going into gaza, food, medicine, water and fuel, and we have got to make sure we elevate the efforts the various hostages, many of whom are in a very critical situation at the moment without access to medication they need. longer term, what we need is the same sort of sustained effort between palestine and israel we have seenin between palestine and israel we have seen in the region in relation to the abraham accords. there is a strong view among the palestinians that the same effort has not been made on the issue of a two—state solution and we have got to show not just we can keep the flame of hope alive through careful sustained diplomacy but to show real progress, and that will be a priority for the next labour government. flan and that will be a priority for the next labour government. can i ask about what — next labour government. can i ask about what keir _ next labour government. can i ask about what keir starmer _ next labour government. can i ask about what keir starmer said - next labour government. can i ask about what keir starmer said on i next labour government. can i askl about what keir starmer said on the 11th of october? he was asked on lbc if an israeli siege was appropriate, including cutting off power and water, and he replied, ithink israel does have that right. why did he say that? he israel does have that right. why did he say that?— he say that? he has clarified that this week that _ he say that? he has clarified that this week that he _ he say that? he has clarified that this week that he was _ he say that? he has clarified that this week that he was answering | he say that? he has clarified that. this week that he was answering the previous question and went on to talk about the importance of international law. i was with keir on the 7th of october when we held a vigil at party conference in support of israeli civilians and what had happened with the horrendous hamas attack. he made the point at the video that international law must be respected and upheld and he has made it many times since —— at the vigil. it took him nine days to issue the clarification you have just referenced and in that time a number of people in britain's muslim community have expressed anger at what he said and the position of the labour party, various muslim councillors have resigned, the labour muslim network has asked for an apology, will they get one? we cannot an apology, will they get one? - cannot apologise for holding a position we have never held. keir starmer has been clear and consistent on this. he starmer has been clear and consistent on this. he wasn't clear on that day _ consistent on this. he wasn't clear on that day with _ consistent on this. he wasn't clear on that day with lbc. _ consistent on this. he wasn't clear on that day with lbc. that - consistent on this. he wasn't clear on that day with lbc. that is - consistent on this. he wasn't clear on that day with lbc. that is why i consistent on this. he wasn't clear. on that day with lbc. that is why he clarified when _ on that day with lbc. that is why he clarified when he _ on that day with lbc. that is why he clarified when he was _ on that day with lbc. that is why he clarified when he was asked - on that day with lbc. that is why he clarified when he was asked about l on that day with lbc. that is why he j clarified when he was asked about it to make sure people here loud and clear from to make sure people here loud and clearfrom us... national law must be upheld. we met with aid agencies this week to talk about the unfolding crisis, the emergency on the ground. i can tell you we are acutely aware of what is happening in gaza at the moment and the urgent need to get help to people. we are acutely aware that palestinians in gaza, this did not start on the 7th of october, they have been in crisis for over a decade and a half with very little prospect of peace. fik. very little prospect of peace. 0k. do ou very little prospect of peace. 0k. do you understand why some muslim labour supporters have felt alienated by what he said? i completely understand why people in the muslim community are in extraordinary amounts of pain right now and they heard those words and felt very concerned and i am glad we have clarified that, i'm glad we have clarified that, i'm glad we have been consistent about that. keir starmer, david lammy and myself, and we continue to be consistent about that, and i'm glad to make that point on your programme because people are very frightened about what is happening to relatives that the men, very worried about what is happening on the streets of britain as well and for their own personal safety —— happening to relatives at the moment. it was important the need to go to friday prayers to express solidarity and to hear the pain and ensure that we are doing everything we can even from the position of opposition, we have influence. let the position of opposition, we have influence. , , ., , influence. let see if you can be clear about _ influence. let see if you can be clear about labour's _ influence. let see if you can be clear about labour's position. i influence. let see if you can be i clear about labour's position. do you think is well breached international law by cutting off water and power supplies? i international law by cutting off water and power supplies? i think it is an extraordinarily _ water and power supplies? i think it is an extraordinarily complex - water and power supplies? i think it is an extraordinarily complex and i is an extraordinarily complex and fast moving situation. there are 200 hostages... fast moving situation. there are 200 hostaues. .. ~ ., fast moving situation. there are 200 hostaaes... ~ . , fast moving situation. there are 200 hostages- - -— hostages... what is the answer to the question? _ hostages. .. what is the answer to the question? israel— hostages... what is the answer to the question? israel has - hostages... what is the answer to the question? israel has the - hostages... what is the answer to the question? israel has the right| the question? israel has the right to self-defence _ the question? israel has the right to self-defence and _ the question? israel has the right to self-defence and it _ the question? israel has the right to self-defence and it has - the question? israel has the right to self-defence and it has the - the question? israel has the right to self-defence and it has the to| to self—defence and it has the to secure the release of hostages. mr; secure the release of hostages. my question was, do you... do you think israel has breached international humanitarian law by cutting off water and fuel supplies? in humanitarian law by cutting off water and fuel supplies? in the last 24 hours, water and fuel supplies? in the last 24 hours. we _ water and fuel supplies? in the last 24 hours, we have _ water and fuel supplies? in the last 24 hours, we have seen _ water and fuel supplies? in the last 24 hours, we have seen water, - 24 hours, we have seen water, medicine and food enter gaza. it is in very limited supply at the moment, but i am hopeful we will be able to amplify and scale up the efforts urgently. there is a very small window in which an israeli government that is responding to fear and pain government that is responding to fearand pain in government that is responding to fear and pain in israel and the egyptian government as well who have serious concerns about the opening of the rafah crossing may be persuaded with the help of the united states and others to notjust allow aid into gaza but allow safe passage through gaza to reach people in the north. ., passage through gaza to reach people in the north-— in the north. forgive me, i am going to ask the question _ in the north. forgive me, i am going to ask the question again, _ in the north. forgive me, i am going to ask the question again, do - in the north. forgive me, i am going to ask the question again, do you - to ask the question again, do you think israel breached international law by cutting off power and water supplies? i law by cutting off power and water su--hes? . , law by cutting off power and water su lies? ., , i. supplies? i will not sit in your studio and — supplies? i will not sit in your studio and grandstand - supplies? i will not sit in your studio and grandstand and . supplies? i will not sit in your| studio and grandstand and tell supplies? i will not sit in your - studio and grandstand and tell you i am going to make big pronouncements about what israel is and isn't doing in what is a very complex, difficult situation, where a number of your panel have just recognised, israel is still having rockets fired against its own people from a proscribed terrorist organisation and where you have got 200 hostages sitting in basements in gaza who haven't yet been released. what we haven't yet been released. what we have to ensure its international law is upheld, that is why the 20 tracks that went into gaza were very important yesterday, but not sufficient and that is why all of our efforts are focused on keeping the window open, keeping the crossing open and scaling up the efforts urgently —— trucks. humanitarian catastrophe looming for people in gaza and that is where we have to focus. people in gaza and that is where we have to focus-— have to focus. thank you for talking to our audience _ have to focus. thank you for talking to our audience this _ have to focus. thank you for talking to our audience this morning, - have to focus. thank you for talking j to our audience this morning, thank you, lisa nandy, from labour. as israel vows to ramp up strikes on the gaza strip, they're warning palestinians still in the north to flee south. meanwhile, the united nations has described conditions in gaza as catastrophic. i've been speaking to dr hanan ashrawi, a veteran palestinian politician who's spent decades campainging for palestinian liberation. i asked her for the latest on what's happening in the gaza strip. there is genocide in the making. the people are notjust besieged and bombed. half of the people, 1.2 million, are now homeless, displaced. and terrified. there is no water, no electricity, no food, no water, no electricity, no food, no medicine, no medical supplies and no medicine, no medical supplies and no fuel. so they are worried that the hospitals will run out of fuel to run the generators. they have about 13,500 injured. and how can they treat and deal with them? hospitals have been bonds, schools have been bombed, homes have been bombed. universities have been bombed. universities have been bombed. it's incredible. this is total devastation. it's beyond a catastrophe. i don't know what it is. it's a deliberate attempt at the total destruction of normal life. the israeli government would absolutely reject that, as you know, they say they target hamas and their military structures, they say they do not target civilians and that they have a right to defend themselves in the wake of the hamas massacre on israeli people. in if ou call massacre on israeli people. in if you call that _ massacre on israeli people. in if you call that a — massacre on israeli people. in f you call that a massacre you should see all the massacres that have happened to the palestinians. if you use the logic of revenge then certainly since the creation of the state of israel we have been subject as palestinians to a series of massacres. as palestinians to a series of massacres-— as palestinians to a series of massacres. . . ., ., , as palestinians to a series of massacres. . ., ., massacres. what have the actions of hamas meant _ massacres. what have the actions of hamas meant for _ massacres. what have the actions of hamas meant for the _ massacres. what have the actions of hamas meant for the chances - massacres. what have the actions of hamas meant for the chances of - massacres. what have the actions of hamas meant for the chances of any| hamas meant for the chances of any resolution to this long—running conflict? resolution to this long-running conflict? ~ �* , ., conflict? well, we've tried several times. everybody _ conflict? well, we've tried several times. everybody tried _ conflict? well, we've tried several times. everybody tried to - conflict? well, we've tried several times. everybody tried to have - conflict? well, we've tried several times. everybody tried to have a i times. everybody tried to have a negotiated settlement and it didn't work because israel insisted on continuing with its occupation, continued with its land grab, its home demolitions, its assassinations and killing of people. that's what really prevented any kind of piece. i wonder if or the hostages, for the rest of the hostages held in gaza were released immediately and unconditionally, that might help. look, we don't like to see any hostages, any civilian hostages taken. we as palestinians have been held hostage since 1967. 80,000 palestinians have been killed. 1 million have been imprisoned. we consider all our prisoners hostages. you do have to acknowledge the barbarity, the brutality of the attack on israelis in southern israel by ham hamas before this can move forwards. filth. israel by ham hamas before this can move forwards.— move forwards. oh, god. i can't believe i'm _ move forwards. oh, god. i can't believe i'm hearing _ move forwards. oh, god. i can't believe i'm hearing the - move forwards. oh, god. i can't believe i'm hearing the same i move forwards. oh, god. i can't. believe i'm hearing the same thing over and over again. this is the preoccupation with the western media. because something happened to israel for the first time in its history, everybody is up in arms and its victims have to condemn themselves. israel has been doing this to us for decades! piecemeal, day in, day out, people killed, homes demolished. we are telling you how many palestinians have been killed by a brutal israeli occupation. total siege on gaza, total destruction in the west bank. nobody says to israelis, isn't this brutal, isn't this genocide? no. but the moment people under siege look at gaza, it's an area where people haven't had a day of normal life and then when they lash out, when they break out, immediately all sorts of horrific labels are used. foretell break out, immediately all sorts of horrific labels are used.— horrific labels are used. well it may create _ horrific labels are used. well it may create israeli _ horrific labels are used. well it may create israeli citizens i may create israeli citizens legitimate targets? —— were israeli citizens legitimate targets? ida. i citizens legitimate targets? no, i don't believe _ citizens legitimate targets? no, i don't believe in _ citizens legitimate targets? no, i don't believe in civilians - citizens legitimate targets? no, i don't believe in civilians being i don't believe in civilians being legitimate targets at all. at all. in the same way as we are not legitimate targets of israel. our homes, our land or not at its disposal, ourfreedom, our rights have been denied. don't put words in my mouth. civilians are never legitimate targets. but what i'm talking about is the double standard. israel is an occupying power. this has to be acknowledged. israel has been torturing the palestinian since 1947. it is time this stops without constantly looking for excuses and blaming the victim. ., ~' ,, , . looking for excuses and blaming the victim. ., ,, i. , . ., victim. thank you very much for bein: victim. thank you very much for being with _ victim. thank you very much for being with us — victim. thank you very much for being with us this _ victim. thank you very much for being with us this morning. i victim. thank you very much for being with us this morning. we | being with us this morning. we appreciate your time. listening to that was immigration minister robertjenrick. good morning. your reaction first. well, we abhor violence and the loss of innocent lives on both sides of this terrible conflict. we do believe it is absolutely essential that israel has the ability to defend itself, to secure its people after the murderous barbaric attack by hamas. and by degrading and eradicating hamas, that both israelis and palestinians will have a path to peace. fin israelis and palestinians will have a path to peace-— israelis and palestinians will have a path to peace. on friday night two us hostages — a path to peace. on friday night two us hostages were _ a path to peace. on friday night two us hostages were released. - a path to peace. on friday night two us hostages were released. rishi i us hostages were released. rishi sunak today writing on a sunday paper says the first thing we must do is support the families of british victims and get hostages back. how confident are you that you will be able to get british hostages out? ~ , ., . , ., out? well, we should celebrate the release of two _ out? well, we should celebrate the release of two innocent _ out? well, we should celebrate the release of two innocent civilians i release of two innocent civilians who are now out of the appalling situation that they were in. we are working intensively with all our partners across the region to secure the release of british nationals being held hostage by hamas. abate the release of british nationals being held hostage by hamas. are you confident that — being held hostage by hamas. are you confident that will _ being held hostage by hamas. are you confident that will happen? _ being held hostage by hamas. are you confident that will happen? i _ being held hostage by hamas. are you confident that will happen? i can't i confident that will happen? i can't comment on _ confident that will happen? i can't comment on the _ confident that will happen? i can't comment on the specific- confident that will happen? i can't comment on the specific cases. i l comment on the specific cases. i hope you can understand that. are hope you can understand that. are not askin: hope you can understand that. are not asking you to. it's _ hope you can understand that. are not asking you to. it's too - hope you can understand that. are not asking you to. it's too serious| not asking you to. it's too serious to do s0- — not asking you to. it's too serious to do so. these _ not asking you to. it's too serious to do so. these things _ not asking you to. it's too serious to do so. these things are - not asking you to. it's too serious to do so. these things are best i to do so. these things are best handled privately and quietly but what the families of those people should know is that the prime minister and foreign secretary are doing absolutely everything that they can. that's one of the reasons why they've been talking to our partners across the region, raising that at the highest level important interlocutors like qatar to trace to secure the release of.— secure the release of. there are also british _ secure the release of. there are also british nationals _ secure the release of. there are also british nationals trapped i secure the release of. there are also british nationals trapped in| also british nationals trapped in the gaza strip. when you get them out and what is it that's stopping people with british passports and other foreign passports being people with british passports and otherforeign passports being able to get out of the gaza strip? melt. to get out of the gaza strip? well, we have a list _ to get out of the gaza strip? well, we have a list of— to get out of the gaza strip? well, we have a list of british _ to get out of the gaza strip? -ii we have a list of british nationals in gaza. there is a british passport holders and their dependents who have registered with the foreign office. we are keeping in close contact and we want to secure their safe passage. d0 contact and we want to secure their safe passage-— safe passage. do you know what is sto -|n~ safe passage. do you know what is stopping them _ safe passage. do you know what is stopping them leaving? _ safe passage. do you know what is stopping them leaving? we - safe passage. do you know what is stopping them leaving? we have l stopping them leaving? we have secured along — stopping them leaving? we have secured along with _ stopping them leaving? we have secured along with other - stopping them leaving? we have| secured along with other partners the supply of humanitarian aid through the rough crossing but not yet foreign nationals including british nationals ability to leave through the rafah crossing. that's one thing that has been raised with the president in egypt. we understand some of the legitimate concerns, the difficult situation in egypt finds itself in. we are working hard to get those individuals out as quickly as we can. we are also playing our part in getting crucial aid, food, water, medical supplies and other support into gaza so that individuals of all nationalities can get some relief from the crisis they find themselves in. it's critical we do that. rishi sunak writing _ in. it's critical we do that. rishi sunak writing in _ in. it's critical we do that. rishi sunak writing in the _ in. it's critical we do that. rishi sunak writing in the newspaper says we need to see water supplies restored were physically possible. at the israelis given you any guarantee that will happen? we've been raising _ guarantee that will happen? we've been raising with _ guarantee that will happen? we've been raising with israel... - guarantee that will happen? we've been raising with israel... are - guarantee that will happen? we've i been raising with israel... are they listenin: ? been raising with israel. .. are they listening? israel— been raising with israel... are they listening? israel doesn't _ been raising with israel... are they listening? israel doesn't want - been raising with israel... are they listening? israel doesn't want to i listening? israel doesn't want to see innocent _ listening? israel doesn't want to see innocent palestinian - listening? israel doesn't want to i see innocent palestinian suffering. their war is with hamas, which is a murderous terrorist regime. turning off the water — murderous terrorist regime. turning off the water affects _ murderous terrorist regime. turning off the water affects all _ off the water affects all palestinians notjust hamas. the palestinians not 'ust hamas. the aood palestinians not 'ust hamas. the good news — palestinians not 'ust hamas. the good news is — palestinians notjust hamas. ire: good news is that the palestinians notjust hamas. i“ie: good news is that the first palestinians notjust hamas. iie: good news is that the first aid has got through. i good news is that the first aid has got through-— good news is that the first aid has got through._ we - got through. i know that. we contributed _ got through. i know that. we contributed to _ got through. i know that. we contributed to that _ got through. i know that. we contributed to that by - got through. i know that. we contributed to that by raising got through. i know that. we l contributed to that by raising it got through. i know that. we - contributed to that by raising it up highest levels. that is a welcome first step and we are coordinating closely with the un. we need to make sure hamas don't use any of those supplies for their own activities and what does go into gaza exclusively goes to support the innocent civilian population. rishi sunak has been _ innocent civilian population. rishi sunak has been visiting _ innocent civilian population. rishi sunak has been visiting various countries. the british government is putting itself at the heart of diplomatic efforts. it would be good to know if you have got a clear vision for how the conflict could be resolved. president biden saying don't make the same mistakes we made after 9/11. does the uk government agree israel needs a clear plan for what happens the day after it gets rid of hamas, assuming it does? this is one of the — rid of hamas, assuming it does? ii 3 is one of the reasons why the prime minister has been engaging with all of our partners and allies throughout the region. we do think that the uk has a role as a very close friend and supporter of israel but also a close partner of a number of other countries in the region. the first step is for israel to be able to secure its borders and to degrade and eradicate hamas. shifter degrade and eradicate hamas. after that? they need _ degrade and eradicate hamas. after that? they need to _ degrade and eradicate hamas. after that? they need to do _ degrade and eradicate hamas. after that? they need to do that - degrade and eradicate hamas. after that? they need to do that in - degrade and eradicate hamas. after that? they need to do that in a - that? they need to do that in a sur: ical that? they need to do that in a surgical way — that? they need to do that in a surgical way that _ that? they need to do that in a surgical way that respects - that? they need to do that in a surgical way that respects the l surgical way that respects the civilian population in gaza. after that of course we want to work towards a world in which there are two states, israel and palestine, three of the tyranny of hamas, in which the israeli and palestinian people can live side by side. that is a long way off. let people can live side by side. that is a long way off.— is a long way off. let me ask you about the — is a long way off. let me ask you about the middle _ is a long way off. let me ask you about the middle bit. _ is a long way off. let me ask you about the middle bit. let's - is a long way off. let me ask you i about the middle bit. let's imagine hamas is destroyed, he replaces them to govern gaza? i’m hamas is destroyed, he replaces them to govern gaza?— to govern gaza? i'm not going to seculate to govern gaza? i'm not going to speculate but — to govern gaza? i'm not going to speculate but those _ to govern gaza? i'm not going to speculate but those are - speculate but those are conversations being discussed by international leaders. does conversations being discussed by international leaders.— international leaders. does the british government _ international leaders. does the british government have - international leaders. does the british government have a - international leaders. does the - british government have a strategy? we are working there is a crucial first step which is that we've got to get hamas degraded, eradicated, out of gaza because it's impossible to see a way to peace when you have a regime running gaza which is dedicated to the destruction of israel and to the murder ofjewish people. that is whatjoe biden was talking about, not making the same mistakes as the uk and the us and other allies post—saddam hussein, there was no plan, that is what i am asking you about post hamas, if israeli troops managed to eliminate hamas, the israelis have said they will not be responsible for life in the gaza strip, the palestinian authority have indicated they would not go back into gaza, there has to be a plan? not go back into gaza, there has to be a lan? , not go back into gaza, there has to bea lan? ,., ., not go back into gaza, there has to be a plan?— not go back into gaza, there has to bealan? ., , , be a plan? does and that is why the uk is playing _ be a plan? does and that is why the uk is playing a _ be a plan? does and that is why the uk is playing a leading _ be a plan? does and that is why the uk is playing a leading role - be a plan? does and that is why the uk is playing a leading role in - uk is playing a leading role in this. ., uk is playing a leading role in this. . , ., uk is playing a leading role in this. ., ., ., ., ., ., this. have you got an idea for that lan? this. have you got an idea for that plan? that — this. have you got an idea for that plan? that is _ this. have you got an idea for that plan? that is not _ this. have you got an idea for that plan? that is not something - this. have you got an idea for that plan? that is not something we i this. have you got an idea for that i plan? that is not something we and israel has spoken _ plan? that is not something we and israel has spoken publicly _ plan? that is not something we and israel has spoken publicly about. i plan? that is not something we and | israel has spoken publicly about. we want to listen to the views of israel and two leaders within the arab world, that is incredibly important and something that perhaps didn't happen in the conflicts you have spoken about in recent past. we want to listen and use the unique role the uk actually has, which is an interlocutor trusted both by partners like egypt and a number of gulf states and also crucially israel. the first step which has to happen is israel has to be able to act to defend themselves. you have made that point. _ act to defend themselves. you have made that point. should _ act to defend themselves. you have made that point. should britain - made that point. should britain accept refugees from israel and gaza, like we did ukrainians, if they want to come here? for reasons ou have they want to come here? for reasons you have just — they want to come here? for reasons you have just described, _ they want to come here? for reasons you have just described, a _ they want to come here? for reasons you have just described, a bit - you havejust described, a bit premature. you havejust described, a bit premature-— you havejust described, a bit premature.- we - you havejust described, a bit premature.- we are - you havejust described, a biti premature.- we are still you havejust described, a bit premature. trailing? we are still working premature. why? we are still working with itit and others _ premature. why? we are still working with itit and others to _ premature. why? we are still working with itit and others to get british nationals out of gaza. —— with egypt and others. trying to get aid into gaza. ii and others. trying to get aid into gaza. ., ,.,, ., gaza. if we are in the position whereby gazans _ gaza. if we are in the position whereby gazans or _ gaza. if we are in the position whereby gazans or israelis i gaza. if we are in the position l whereby gazans or israelis want gaza. if we are in the position - whereby gazans or israelis want to free and one safe haven in the uk, would you set up a scheme similar to the one the uk debt for ukrainian people? i the one the uk debt for ukrainian --eole? ., �* ~' the one the uk debt for ukrainian --eole? ., �* ~ , , , people? i don't think the first step the uk should _ people? i don't think the first step the uk should do _ people? i don't think the first step the uk should do when _ people? i don't think the first step the uk should do when there - people? i don't think the first step the uk should do when there is i people? i don't think the first step the uk should do when there is a i the uk should do when there is a conflict or humanitarian disaster around the world is to reach full migration as the solution —— uk did. i was not suggesting it should be the first step. the i was not suggesting it should be the first step-— the first step. the best thing we can do is use — the first step. the best thing we can do is use our— the first step. the best thing we can do is use our diplomatic- the first step. the best thing we | can do is use our diplomatic heft and significant aid budget to support people in places like gaza and that is what the uk intends to do. we are coordinating closely with the un and looking to see whether there are more things we can do on there are more things we can do on the humanitarian fund in the coming days. that is our priority at the moment. ., ., days. that is our priority at the moment. ., ,, ., days. that is our priority at the moment-— days. that is our priority at the moment. ., ,, ., ., , . , moment. talk about domestic news, last week's by-elections, _ moment. talk about domestic news, last week's by-elections, described l last week's by—elections, described by the election skewer professor john curtice spectacular losses for your party, 48 hours now to reflect, does the buck stop with rishi sunak? we are of course disappointed. does the buck stop _ we are of course disappointed. does the buck stop with _ we are of course disappointed. does the buck stop with him? rishi - we are of course disappointed. does the buck stop with him? rishi sunak| the buck stop with him? rishi sunak is the prime — the buck stop with him? rishi sunak is the prime minister _ the buck stop with him? rishi sunak is the prime minister but _ the buck stop with him? rishi sunak is the prime minister but we - the buck stop with him? rishi sunak is the prime minister but we are - the buck stop with him? rishi sunak is the prime minister but we are all| is the prime minister but we are all in government responsible for the conservative party and what we are doing to deliver for the british public. i think the prime minister is making good progress, we are working extremely hard, we have the right priorities which match those of the public. the key thing is we deliver. ~ ., , ., , of the public. the key thing is we deliver. ~ ., , , ., deliver. where do you see progress? we certainly — deliver. where do you see progress? we certainly didn't _ deliver. where do you see progress? we certainly didn't see _ deliver. where do you see progress? we certainly didn't see it _ what we are delivering for the public, i see inflation is starting to come down, the economy is growing. in my own brief, i see we are beginning to make progress on stopping the boats. numbers are falling. it stopping the boats. numbers are fallina. ., , ., , ., stopping the boats. numbers are fallina. ., , ., , falling. it does not seem to be havin: falling. it does not seem to be having any _ falling. it does not seem to be having any effect _ falling. it does not seem to be having any effect if— falling. it does not seem to be having any effect if you - falling. it does not seem to be having any effect if you look i falling. it does not seem to bei having any effect if you look at what happened in tamworth in mid bedfordshire, labour overturned a majority of almost 19,000, a majority of almost 19,000, a majority of almost 19,000, a majority of 25,000... i majority of almost 19,000, a majority of 25,000. .. i would not read too much _ majority of 25,000. .. i would not read too much into _ majority of 25,000. .. i would not read too much into by-elections. | read too much into by—elections. governments tend to lose by—elections. i was elected in a by—election... by-elections. i was elected in a by-election. . ._ by-elections. i was elected in a by-election. .. they are massive majorities _ by-election. .. they are massive majorities with _ by-election. .. they are massive majorities with double-digit - by-election. .. they are massive - majorities with double-digit swings. majorities with double—digit swings. are you in denial? i majorities with double-digit swings. are you in denial?— are you in denial? i think we'll have to listen _ are you in denial? i think we'll have to listen to _ are you in denial? i think we'll have to listen to what - are you in denial? i think we'll have to listen to what the - are you in denial? i think we'll. have to listen to what the voters are saying in the by—elections but we not read too much into them. my senseis we not read too much into them. my sense is the public are undecided, they are certainly not sold on keir starmer, conservative voters want... they just won two starmer, conservative voters want... theyjust won two by—elections, labour won two by—elections. the theyjust won two by-elections, labour won two by-elections. the key thin as a labour won two by-elections. the key thing as a party _ labour won two by-elections. the key thing as a party is— labour won two by-elections. the key thing as a party is not _ labour won two by-elections. the key thing as a party is not worry _ labour won two by-elections. the key thing as a party is not worry about - thing as a party is not worry about party politics but deliver on the public�*s parties, people are worried about the cost of living, they want us to bear down on inflation which they are doing, they want us to have a strategy to grow the economy and it is growing and of areas of domestic and like illegal migration, they want us to stop the boats. clearly a long way to go in this regard but i am pleased our plan is beginning to bear fruit, regard but i am pleased our plan is beginning to bearfruit, numbers crossing orfalling, but they beginning to bearfruit, numbers crossing or falling, but they are rising by over 100% in places... nowhere near stopping them. but ii nowhere near stopping them. but if ou said to nowhere near stopping them. but if you said to me... _ nowhere near stopping them. but if you said to me... nhs_ nowhere near stopping them. but if you said to me... nhs waiting lists continue going up. how worried are you about your own seat, a majority of 21,816? ems; you about your own seat, a ma'ority of 21,816? �* , ~ , you about your own seat, a ma'ority of 21,816? ~ , ~ , ., you about your own seat, a ma'ority of21,816? ~ , ~ , ., ., ., of 21,816? any member of parliament, foolish to be — of 21,816? any member of parliament, foolish to be complacent. _ of 21,816? any member of parliament, foolish to be complacent. we - of 21,816? any member of parliament, foolish to be complacent. we all - foolish to be complacent. we all have to work hard and be good mps, thatis have to work hard and be good mps, that is what i try to do every day. government's priority is looking at the public�*s challenges, like the economy, immigration, public services, working day in, day out for the rest of this parliament to deliver for the british for the rest of this parliament to deliverfor the british public. did deliver for the british public. did ou 'ust deliver for the british public. did you just say you never said he would stop the boats entirely? ioral’hszat you just say you never said he would stop the boats entirely?— stop the boats entirely? what i said was we are working _ stop the boats entirely? what i said was we are working to _ stop the boats entirely? what i said was we are working to stop - stop the boats entirely? what i said was we are working to stop the - stop the boats entirely? what i said l was we are working to stop the boats completely, that is our objective. 0k. completely, that is our ob'ective. 0k. ., ., completely, that is our ob'ective. 0k. ., , ., ., 0k. not a simple task and anyone who would say that — 0k. not a simple task and anyone who would say that does _ 0k. not a simple task and anyone who would say that does not _ 0k. not a simple task and anyone who would say that does not understand i would say that does not understand theissue, would say that does not understand the issue, one of the most challenging issues facing any developed country in the world. our plan is working. d0 developed country in the world. our plan is working-— plan is working. do you think rishi sunak's a-levels _ plan is working. do you think rishi sunak's a-levels reform _ plan is working. do you think rishi sunak's a-levels reform and - plan is working. do you think rishi i sunak's a-levels reform and smoking sunak's a—levels reform and smoking ban will get your base and in time for a general election?— ban will get your base and in time for a general election? people care passionately _ for a general election? people care passionately about _ for a general election? people care passionately about education... i i passionately about education... i don't see people marching in the streets wanting reform of a—levels. i think people want good technical and vocational education of the same parity of qualifications like a—levels. is that coming up on the doorstep? it that coming up on the doorstep? ii is, actually. that coming up on the doorstep? it is, actually. come _ that coming up on the doorstep? it is, actually. come on. _ that coming up on the doorstep? it is, actually. come on. people - that coming up on the doorstep? it is, actually. come on. people are l is, actually. come on. people are sa ina, is, actually. come on. people are saying. we _ is, actually. come on. people are saying. we need _ is, actually. come on. people are saying, we need to _ is, actually. come on. people are saying, we need to change - is, actually. come on. people are - saying, we need to change a-levels? saying, we need to change a—levels? if you come to a constituency like mine where the majority have not gone to university, many people have got technical and vocational qualifications, they want to think those have the same esteem as a—levels, they don't believe in the constant drive for people to go to university is the only route for success in life. if we can bring them together into a globally respected qualification, i think it is a very positive thing. these are examples, if i may, of why we are taking long—term difficult decisions that tackle real problems... in taking long-term difficult decisions that tackle real problems. . .- that tackle real problems... in the by-elections. _ that tackle real problems... in the by-elections, for _ that tackle real problems... in the by-elections, for example, - that tackle real problems... in the by-elections, for example, you i that tackle real problems... in the | by-elections, for example, you are by—elections, for example, you are not seen... by-elections, for example, you are not seen- - -— not seen... challenging time, we will keep focusing _ not seen... challenging time, we will keep focusing on _ not seen... challenging time, we will keep focusing on the - not seen... challenging time, we | will keep focusing on the issues... let me ask you about cutting taxes, we know what your argument is against it, there are a number of people, a number of voices in your party getting louder and louder same, the only way to win the election is to cut the taxes and you need to bite the bullet and do it, are you listening to them? we all want to cut _ are you listening to them? we all want to cut taxes, _ are you listening to them? we all want to cut taxes, everyone - are you listening to them? we all| want to cut taxes, everyone wants lower taxes, and as a conservative, one of the central tenets of conservatism that we believe in lower taxes. conservatism that we believe in lower taxes-— conservatism that we believe in lower taxes. ., , lower taxes. you may believe in it but actions _ lower taxes. you may believe in it but actions speak _ lower taxes. you may believe in it but actions speak louder- lower taxes. you may believe in it but actions speak louder than -- i but actions speak louder than —— louder than words. the but actions speak louder than -- louder than words.— but actions speak louder than -- louder than words. the first task is to be bearing _ louder than words. the first task is to be bearing down _ louder than words. the first task is to be bearing down on _ to be hearing down on inflation and it is inflation which has been the great evil which has been eroding people's savings, leading to mortgages rising. if we can get it under control, and it seems the plan is working, the governor of the bank of england said we should be on course to halve inflation by the end of the year, of course we should consider what more we will do. you can trust the conservatives to make sensible prudent decisions on the future of the economy... harare sensible prudent decisions on the future of the economy... have you foraotten future of the economy... have you forgotten liz _ future of the economy... have you forgotten liz truss _ future of the economy... have you forgotten liz truss a _ future of the economy... have you forgotten liz truss a year - future of the economy... have you forgotten liz truss a year ago? i future of the economy... have you i forgotten liz truss a year ago? look at the difference _ forgotten liz truss a year ago? look at the difference we _ forgotten liz truss a year ago? look at the difference we have _ forgotten liz truss a year ago? irrrrs; at the difference we have seen in the last 12 months under rishi sunak, we have stabilised the economy, it is growing, inflation is falling, critical issues like immigration, making significant progress for the first time in a long time. progress for the first time in a long time-— progress for the first time in a lona time. ., ., ., ., ., long time. illegal migration at a record high _ long time. illegal migration at a record high in _ long time. illegal migration at a record high in the _ long time. illegal migration at a record high in the latest - long time. illegal migration at a| record high in the latest figures, but we must leave it there, robert jenrick, immigration minister. what do you think of what you've heard this morning? let us know. we absolutely love to hear from you. if you want to read the headlines as they unfold, go to the bbc live page. we started this morning by asking how this conflict can be resolved — a lot of that depends on israel's plan for what comes next. former prime minister naftali bennett was leader of thejewish home party and has described himself as more right wing than the current prime minister netanyahu. we can talk to him now. good morning to you. we can talk to him now. good morning to ou. , ., we can talk to him now. good morning to ou. ., i we can talk to him now. good morning to you-_ i wonder - we can talk to him now. good morning to you._ i wonder if - to you. good morning. i wonder if ou can to you. good morning. i wonder if you can tell— to you. good morning. i wonder if you can tell us — to you. good morning. i wonder if you can tell us where _ to you. good morning. i wonder if you can tell us where you - to you. good morning. i wonder if you can tell us where you think. you can tell us where you think israel is right now with the imminent ground invasion. fiur imminent ground invasion. our ob'ective imminent ground invasion. our objective is _ imminent ground invasion. our objective is for— imminent ground invasion. oi objective is for the citizens imminent ground invasion. (zii objective is for the citizens of israel to be able to return to their homes in the south and to have hostages released, that is our goal. we want to be able to live with security and peace, families here in this town, tens of other families, to note that never again will they be under rockets, terror attacks from gaza. the implication of that is that we need to demilitarise gaza and that is the stated goal of the government. we are planning a counteroffensive against this hamas isis type organisation. tiara counteroffensive against this hamas isis type organisation.— isis type organisation. two us hostaaes isis type organisation. two us hostages released, _ isis type organisation. two us hostages released, i- isis type organisation. two us hostages released, i wonder i isis type organisation. two us i hostages released, i wonder does isis type organisation. two us - hostages released, i wonder does a ground incursion into gaza make it less likely you will get the rest of the hostages out?— less likely you will get the rest of the hostages out? well, there is no 0 tion but the hostages out? well, there is no option but to _ the hostages out? well, there is no option but to eradicate _ the hostages out? well, there is no option but to eradicate hamas. - the hostages out? well, there is no option but to eradicate hamas. ifi option but to eradicate hamas. if anyone has a better idea how to eradicate this hamas isis, let me know. ~ ., ., eradicate this hamas isis, let me know. . ., ., ., ., , .,~ know. what i am asking, does it make it harder to get — know. what i am asking, does it make it harder to get the _ know. what i am asking, does it make it harder to get the hostages - know. what i am asking, does it make it harder to get the hostages out? - it harder to get the hostages out? the hostages is one of the objectives, the other objective is to eradicate hamas, so this sort of thing can never happen. we thought that we can contain and live side by side with this hamas state, that was a mistake across the board, and we are going to fix it.— are going to fix it. writing in the british press _ are going to fix it. writing in the british press this _ are going to fix it. writing in the british press this morning - are going to fix it. writing in the british press this morning the i are going to fix it. writing in the | british press this morning the uk promised a rishi sunak says, palestinian people in gaza are suffering terribly at the moment —— uk prime minister. the foreign secretary says the 28 trucks that went into gaza from egypt was a good start, will more aid be allowed in —— rcredit 20 aid trucks. the start, will more aid be allowed in -- rcredit 20 aid trucks. the world can come — -- rcredit 20 aid trucks. the world can come and _ -- rcredit 20 aid trucks. the world can come and help _ -- rcredit 20 aid trucks. the world can come and help the _ -- rcredit 20 aid trucks. the world can come and help the gazans, i -- rcredit 20 aid trucks. the world i can come and help the gazans, none of our business. the israeli government is allowing that sort of aid in. my approach is humanitarian for humanitarian, it has to be reciprocal, and we now have hundreds of israeli citizens including five—month—old babies held hostage, so if we are focused on humanitarian, it has to be reciprocal. i would tie the two. i understand that, but it is your business, isn't it? you have to clearly demonstrate your fight is with hamas and not with the palestinian people.- with hamas and not with the palestinian people. what is your . uestion? palestinian people. what is your question? you _ palestinian people. what is your question? you said _ palestinian people. what is your question? you said it _ palestinian people. what is your question? you said it wasn't - palestinian people. what is your| question? you said it wasn't your business. — question? you said it wasn't your business. the _ question? you said it wasn't your business, the humanitarian - question? you said it wasn't your i business, the humanitarian situation of gazans. ., ., ., of gazans. no, we are not responsible _ of gazans. no, we are not responsible for _ of gazans. no, we are not responsible for gaza, - of gazans. no, we are not responsible for gaza, just| of gazans. no, we are not- responsible for gaza, just like you are not responsible for france. if others want to take care of the gazans, that is theirs to do. they have got a full—blown palestinian gazans date in 2005. we handed over the entire area, we pulled out our soldiers, we expelled thejews living in gaza and we gave it to mahmoud abbas and there was no siege. the problem is from days after that, they started shooting rockets at us.— after that, they started shooting rockets at us. you do control the borders. cutting _ rockets at us. you do control the borders. cutting off— rockets at us. you do control the borders. cutting off water, - rockets at us. you do control the borders. cutting off water, food, fuel affects all gazans, notjust hamas. fuel affects all gazans, not 'ust hamas. , . ., ., ., hamas. let me be clear now we have an ice estate — hamas. let me be clear now we have an ice estate next _ hamas. let me be clear now we have an ice estate next to _ hamas. let me be clear now we have an ice estate next to us, _ hamas. let me be clear now we have an ice estate next to us, 0k? -- - an ice estate next to us, ok? —— isis state. we were surprised, we will win, but the west is next, if you think it is not going to hit london, you are mistaken, it will. radical islam, terror, it will hit everywhere. we saw isis kill a couple in brussels a few days ago. you are next. we are fighting the war that ultimately needs to and will defend the rest of the world from radical islam. i understand that. from radical islam. i understand that- here _ from radical islam. i understand that. here is _ from radical islam. i understand that. here is what _ from radical islam. i understand that. here is what we _ from radical islam. i understand that. here is what we are - from radical islam. i understand that. here is what we are doing | from radical islam. i understand i that. here is what we are doing on the humanitarian _ that. here is what we are doing on the humanitarian side. _ that. here is what we are doing on the humanitarian side. we - that. here is what we are doing on the humanitarian side. we have i that. here is what we are doing on i the humanitarian side. we have told all the gazans from northern gaza to move to the south before we take action there because our goal is for gaza and civilians not to die. we deliberately go out of our way to prevent that from happening as far as we can. the problem is that hamas, isis, it is using them as human shields. our big lesson is we will defend ourselves. i human shields. our big lesson is we will defend ourselves.— will defend ourselves. i understand that and i hear _ will defend ourselves. i understand that and i hear your _ will defend ourselves. i understand that and i hear your words - will defend ourselves. i understand that and i hear your words very - that and i hear your words very clearly. you will know the head of the un and many others have said walls have rules and forgive me if i quote some of the geneva convention teir —— wars. article 43, the parties to the conflict shall confine operations to the destruction or weakening of military resources of the adversary and should make a distinction between the civilian population and combatants and between civilian objects and military objectives. that is exactly what we are doing, exactly why we are allowing civilians to evacuate before pounding them. it civilians to evacuate before pounding them.— civilians to evacuate before pounding them. it is not exactly what ou pounding them. it is not exactly what you are — pounding them. it is not exactly what you are doing. _ pounding them. it is not exactly what you are doing. would - pounding them. it is not exactly what you are doing. would you | pounding them. it is not exactly i what you are doing. would you let pounding them. it is not exactly - what you are doing. would you let me answer? hamas, _ what you are doing. would you let me answer? hamas, isis, _ what you are doing. would you let me answer? hamas, isis, they— what you are doing. would you let me answer? hamas, isis, they entered i answer? hamas, isis, they entered roughly 30 communities, whenever they can, they butchered babies, i burned them alive, they pulled a baby out of a pregnant mum and beheaded the baby, beheaded the mum, they raped young girls, this is what we are dealing with. with all due respect, they think the geneva convention first and foremost tell a country, you need to defend yourself, and we will defend ourselves. we are going out of our way, i know last week a hospital was fired by islamicjihad, fired a rocket on it, and the bbc said it was israel, but it wasn't israel, and understand the bbc taken the side, the gazans aside, all of your questions are only about the guards civilians. ., , ., questions are only about the guards civilians._ you - civilians. that is not true. you have not _ civilians. that is not true. you have not asked _ civilians. that is not true. you have not asked one _ civilians. that is not true. you have not asked one question | civilians. that is not true. you - have not asked one question about children from the very beginning of this interview, asking me about than... that is not true. it seems you care little about our site. i began by talking about the hostages. what i am asking you about now... i am not talking about the hostages, i am not talking about the hostages, i am talking about babies murdered. you keep on caring about one side but that is the bbc way. let me tell you something. we are here protecting you. we don't need your protection. if you think there is a balance here between two equal sides, you are lacking moral clarity. bbc, i must say, lacking moral clarity. what you did last week, shame on you. before we speak to ou, i week, shame on you. before we speak to you. i spoke — week, shame on you. before we speak to you. i spoke to _ week, shame on you. before we speak to you. i spoke to a — week, shame on you. before we speak to you, i spoke to a veteran _ to you, i spoke to a veteran palestinian politician and i asked her about the massacre of israeli citizens in southern israel. i want to ask you know about the long—term strategy. let us say the israeli military manages to wipe out hamas, who runs because of the day after? i assume they will develop the civilian leadership but it won't be hamas. ~ ., civilian leadership but it won't be hamas. . ., ., ., . ., hamas. right. what about what joe biden said last _ hamas. right. what about what joe biden said last week, _ hamas. right. what about what joe biden said last week, which - hamas. right. what about what joe biden said last week, which is - hamas. right. what about what joe biden said last week, which is of i biden said last week, which is of course israel has the right to defend itself but do not make the mistakes of the uk made after 9/11. what you think he means by that? i don't know, you would need to ask him. what i know is that how big mistake is that for 20 years, we have again and again listened to the world, we've always contained this, we never went out to eradicate hamas. that was the biggest mistake we made. ~ ., hamas. that was the biggest mistake we made. . ., , ., we made. without the rest of the world's fault? _ we made. without the rest of the world's fault? it's _ we made. without the rest of the world's fault? it's our— we made. without the rest of the world's fault? it's our fault. - we made. without the rest of the world's fault? it's our fault. it i we made. without the rest of the world's fault? it's our fault. it is l world's fault? it's our fault. it is only israel's _ world's fault? it's our fault. it is only israel's fault. _ world's fault? it's our fault. it is only israel's fault. the - world's fault? it's our fault. it is only israel's fault. the world, i world's fault? it's our fault. it is i only israel's fault. the world, back then, was telling us go for a ceasefire. our big mistake as we listen to the world. i'm not blaming the world, the world has always been a hypocrite about the jewish state. i'm blaming us for listening to them. because at the end of the day, we have to protect ourselves. i assume you wouldn't want isis to live in your neighbourhood and he would demand that your government eradicate isis. that's what our people want too and we're going to do that. bi people want too and we're going to do that. �* , ., people want too and we're going to do that. �* ,., ,., , ., do that. at some point, will israeli oliticians do that. at some point, will israeli politicians have _ do that. at some point, will israeli politicians have to _ do that. at some point, will israeli politicians have to sit _ do that. at some point, will israeli politicians have to sit down - do that. at some point, will israeli politicians have to sit down with i politicians have to sit down with palestinian politicians to talk about the long—term? palestinian politicians to talk about the long-term?- palestinian politicians to talk about the long-term? look. i'm fine with any talks _ about the long-term? look. i'm fine with any talks always _ about the long-term? look. i'm fine with any talks always but _ about the long-term? look. i'm fine with any talks always but the - about the long-term? look. i'm fine with any talks always but the truth i with any talks always but the truth is, unfortunately, that hamas enjoys massive public palestinian support. that's the sad truth. we massive public palestinian support. that's the sad truth.— that's the sad truth. we actually don't know _ that's the sad truth. we actually don't know that. _ that's the sad truth. we actually don't know that. we _ that's the sad truth. we actually don't know that. we actually - that's the sad truth. we actually don't know that. we actually do. that's the sad truth. we actually - don't know that. we actually do. the last elections — don't know that. we actually do. the last elections were _ don't know that. we actually do. the last elections were in _ don't know that. we actually do. the last elections were in and _ don't know that. we actually do. the last elections were in and six. - don't know that. we actually do. the last elections were in and six. and i last elections were in and six. and ou know last elections were in and six. and you know that _ last elections were in and six. ii.“ic you know that hamas last elections were in and six. el“ic you know that hamas got a full, overwhelming majority of the electorate stop what it was a decade and a half ago. fine, go and do elections. inaudible i apologise, i'm not sure _ elections. inaudible i apologise, i'm not sure why _ elections. inaudible i apologise, i'm not sure why the _ elections. inaudible i apologise, i'm not sure why the signal- elections. inaudible i apologise, | i'm not sure why the signal cutout. let's go back to our panel. jasmine, what do you make of that? it's hard to know where to begin in terms of answering some of the things that naftali bennett was just saying but let me start by saying i was incredibly struck by how he talked about israeli aspirations. he said, people want to return to their homes, people want to live in security and people do not want to live under rockets. you could literally be talking about the palestinian people right now. i mention that because i think that what people seem to forget and what politicians seem to forget that i've been hearing for the last two weeks is that this is an issue of humanity. this is not an issue of two different people whose lives are weighted differently and naftali bennettjust proved that by how he was talking about things. there was a lot of sort of mixing between different terrorist organisations here and i want to make one thing very clear. when he says that he has a hamas estate next to him, if gaza was a hamas state, hamas would control and would control borders, fuel, water, electricity. they control none of those things, israel does. when he talks about israel's responsibility towards gaza whether humanitarian or otherwise, if you can flick on a switch and decide whether a baby dies or not, there are 130 babies now, premature babies, who are about to die because there is a lack of fuel. their lives can'tjust there is a lack of fuel. their lives can't just as there is a lack of fuel. their lives can'tjust as much as a precious israeli babies who were killed. so, we have whose lives matter in the same way and to say that you are not responsible for that is quite disingenuous and we have to push back on that. i disingenuous and we have to push back on that-— disingenuous and we have to push back on that. s, ,, ., ., back on that. i wonder, simon, from what we've — back on that. i wonder, simon, from what we've heard _ back on that. i wonder, simon, from what we've heard this _ back on that. i wonder, simon, from what we've heard this morning - back on that. i wonder, simon, from what we've heard this morning from | what we've heard this morning from naftali bennett, robertjenrick, do you hear anything about a long—term strategy? b. you hear anything about a long-term strate: ? �* ., you hear anything about a long-term strate: 7“ ., ., you hear anything about a long-term strate: ? �* ., ., , you hear anything about a long-term strate: 7“ ., ., strategy? a lot has to be done right now. it's extremely _ strategy? a lot has to be done right now. it's extremely difficult - strategy? a lot has to be done right now. it's extremely difficult to - now. it's extremely difficult to fight _ now. it's extremely difficult to fight your way into this territory. i already — fight your way into this territory. i already listened this time and i think_ i already listened this time and i think more people should to moderate arab voices— think more people should to moderate arab voices from the arab world. there _ arab voices from the arab world. there was— arab voices from the arab world. there was a _ arab voices from the arab world. there was a speech this week by one of the _ there was a speech this week by one of the most — there was a speech this week by one of the most respected saudi statesmen and he, who knows the arab world better— statesmen and he, who knows the arab world better than many of the commentators here, many of whom have been sympathetic to hamas, he really attacked _ been sympathetic to hamas, he really attacked hamas for undermining the saudi _ attacked hamas for undermining the saudi peace with israel.— saudi peace with israel. that's what the want. saudi peace with israel. that's what they want. which _ saudi peace with israel. that's what they want. which the _ saudi peace with israel. that's what they want. which the saudis - saudi peace with israel. that's whati they want. which the saudis believe would have improved _ they want. which the saudis believe would have improved palestinian i would have improved palestinian rights and representation in the west bank. hamas's aim was to destroy those relationships. has it succeeded it _ destroy those relationships. has it succeeded it may _ destroy those relationships. has it succeeded it may well _ destroy those relationships. has it succeeded it may well have - destroy those relationships. has it succeeded it may well have but i destroy those relationships. has it| succeeded it may well have but we mustn't let — succeeded it may well have but we mustn't let it. _ succeeded it may well have but we mustn't let it. its _ succeeded it may well have but we mustn't let it. its aim _ succeeded it may well have but we mustn't let it. its aim was - succeeded it may well have but we mustn't let it. its aim was also - succeeded it may well have but we mustn't let it. its aim was also to l mustn't let it. its aim was also to stop what hamas's chief aim since it was founded in the late 805, which was founded in the late 805, which was to stop a two state solution. and of course, ifeel more was to stop a two state solution. and of course, i feel more strongly than ever that a two state solution is the only way to go but it's going to take a few years after this tragedy. but i would say one thing to jasmine, of course israel controls borders of gaza, but considering that, hamas did manage to get a massive amount of military hardware into that state. and when one listens to arab voices like prince bin faisal and the brilliant female arab interviewer who interviewed khaled moshal, and remember i think she's a saudi interviewer, she accused him of using the palestinian people as human shields. and she said, how many people are you going to kill? who are going to get killed by this disgusting, barbaric operation? and his answer, which was very important is he said, russia lost 30 million people to defeat germany. that is hamas's agenda. iie people to defeat germany. that is hamas's agenda.— people to defeat germany. that is hamas's agenda. he seemed to be suo arestin hamas's agenda. he seemed to be suggesting many — hamas's agenda. he seemed to be suggesting many palestinian - hamas's agenda. he seemed to be suggesting many palestinian livesl suggesting many palestinian lives would be lost in this cause. hamas is a terrorist _ is a terrorist organisation deliberately using the palestinian --eole. ~ ., ~' people. where do you think the diloma people. where do you think the diplomacy goes _ people. where do you think the diplomacy goes next? - people. where do you think the diplomacy goes next? there's i people. where do you think the l diplomacy goes next? there's so people. where do you think the - diplomacy goes next? there's so much to do. diplomacy goes next? there's so much to do- we've — diplomacy goes next? there's so much to do. we've seen _ diplomacy goes next? there's so much to do. we've seen a _ diplomacy goes next? there's so much to do. we've seen a flurry _ diplomacy goes next? there's so much to do. we've seen a flurry this - to do. we've seen a flurry this week — to do. we've seen a flurry this week arab _ to do. we've seen a flurry this week. arab partners, western leaders. — week. arab partners, western leaders, biden, rishi sunakflying in for— leaders, biden, rishi sunakflying in for talks. i was really struck thal— in for talks. i was really struck that after— in for talks. i was really struck that after the hospital explosion in gaza on— that after the hospital explosion in gaza on tuesday, jordan cancelled a summit— gaza on tuesday, jordan cancelled a summit with egypt, with the palestinian president mahmoud abbas, withjoe _ palestinian president mahmoud abbas, withjoe biden. ithink palestinian president mahmoud abbas, withjoe biden. i think that shows how diplomacy is at the mercy of events — how diplomacy is at the mercy of events we — how diplomacy is at the mercy of events. we can see these talks derailed — events. we can see these talks derailed very easily. i was struck listening — derailed very easily. i was struck listening to both robertjenrick and lisa nandy today not willing to even -ive lisa nandy today not willing to even give voice _ lisa nandy today not willing to even give voice to some of the options for a _ give voice to some of the options for a long—term strategy of how gaza is governed — for a long—term strategy of how gaza is governed. i wasn't particularly convinced — is governed. i wasn't particularly convinced by naftali bennett's idea, well, some solution will come from gaza itself — well, some solution will come from gaza itself. we need to hear from israel— gaza itself. we need to hear from israel more — gaza itself. we need to hear from israel more detail in coming days about— israel more detail in coming days about what they are planning. we've heard _ about what they are planning. we've heard in— about what they are planning. we've heard in the — about what they are planning. we've heard in the past 48 hours there suggesting they will cut ties altogether. that could mean they cut electricity— altogether. that could mean they cut electricity supplies, as well as stopping — electricity supplies, as well as stopping any gazans being allowed over the _ stopping any gazans being allowed over the border to work. so, stopping any gazans being allowed overthe borderto work. so, it really— overthe borderto work. so, it really does— overthe borderto work. so, it really does feel like the enclave is going _ really does feel like the enclave is going to _ really does feel like the enclave is going to be completely cut off from the world _ going to be completely cut off from the world unless a solution is found — the world unless a solution is found. ~ ., ,, the world unless a solution is found. . ., ., ., , the world unless a solution is found. . ., ., found. what you want to see happen next? what — found. what you want to see happen next? what i — found. what you want to see happen next? what i want _ found. what you want to see happen next? what i want to _ found. what you want to see happen next? what i want to see _ found. what you want to see happen next? what i want to see is - found. what you want to see happen next? what i want to see is to - found. what you want to see happen next? what i want to see is to set i next? what i want to see is to set u . next? what i want to see is to set u- a next? what i want to see is to set up a pathway _ next? what i want to see is to set up a pathway for _ up a pathway for negotiations. if we think about two things that have to happen for a successful negotiation, you have to have at least some semblance of trust between the parties and if you have no trust that he needed trusted intermediary, trusted by both. i get to that in a second. the second thing you have to do is find a way for both parties to be able to save face in their respective environments, to come out of it saying we got this. those are the two things you need for a potentially successful negotiation. so, if we work backwards from there and we look at the way that israel has conducted operations in gaza over the last two weeks, and this is before a ground invasion, my question to them, and before anyone says anything, i believe every state has a right to defend itself, israel is no exception. let me get that out of the way. so, there is defence and there is extreme fence. there is defence and there is 4000 people dead two weeks. over 1800 of them children. the reason i'm bringing that up is because if you're creating that type of environment, what arab leader is right now going to want to come in and stick their neck out for you and say i will help you with these negotiations? what population is going to be governed 4000 people have died in two weeks? and by prime minister netanyahu's admission, this could take weeks or even years. these are the kinds of things we have to think about now strategically, rationally, so that we can come to a i strategically, rationally, so that we can come to a longterm solution. strategically, rationally, so that we can come to a long—term solution. we are nearly at the end of the programme. in terms of a broker, who is that country?— is that country? traditionally, er nt is that country? traditionally, egypt and _ is that country? traditionally, egypt and jordan _ is that country? traditionally, egypt and jordan have - is that country? traditionally, egypt and jordan have played | is that country? traditionally, - egypt and jordan have played huge roles in the region so those are two potential brokers. the roles in the region so those are two potential brokers.— potential brokers. the saudis have to be involved _ potential brokers. the saudis have to be involved in _ potential brokers. the saudis have to be involved in this _ potential brokers. the saudis have to be involved in this now. - potential brokers. the saudis have to be involved in this now. and i potential brokers. the saudis have i to be involved in this now. and the us. to be involved in this now. and the us- thank — to be involved in this now. and the us- thank you _ to be involved in this now. and the us. thank you so _ to be involved in this now. and the us. thank you so much. _ to be involved in this now. and the us. thank you so much. we - to be involved in this now. and the us. thank you so much. we really| us. thank you so much. we really appreciate your insight and contributions today. for more, join me and paddy o'connell for the weekend newscast. we'll be recording straight after the show. it'll be on bbc sounds by lunchtime. that's it, goodbye. live from jerusalem — this is bbc news. israel warns it will intensify the attacks on gaza, ahead of an expected ground offensive into the palestinian territory. the un's humanitarian chief says talks have been taking place to allow a second aid convoy into gaza later on sunday. syrian state media say the international airports in damascus and aleppo have been hit by israeli missile attacks. the reports say one person was killed. flooding in derbyshire could pose a threat to life, as the effects of storm babet continue to be felt in the uk. good morning. israel has confirmed that 212 people are being held hostage in gaza. this follows the unprecedented attacks in israel two weeks ago. rear admiral daniel hagar said that israeli strikes overnight killed dozens of palestinian fighters, including the deputy chief of hamas rocket forces. meanwhile, israel has already been carrying out intensive aerial bombardment of gaza — since the unprecedented attacks inside israel two weeks ago — orchestrated by hamas — in which 1,400 people were murdered and 210 taken hostage. -- 212.