thank you so much for joining us. cnn prime time starts right now. hi, abby! >> hey, thank you so much. have a good night. good evening, everyone. it is shaping up to be one of the biggest criminal trials in american history. literally. today was the very first televised hearing in that georgia case against donald trump and 18 of his allies. district foreigner fani willis and her team revealed three big things. first, they want to charge and try all 19 co-defendants together. second, this trial could last four months. and third, they'll call more than 150 different witnesses. that means that the former president of the united states could spend a third of the next year sitting in a courtroom. in just one of his cases, while running for a second term. it is just extraordinary. and we are getting a preview of the tensions to come. two of those co-defendants, trump's legal adviser, sidney powell, and the so called architect, they want their cases to be separated. today they started pointing the finger at each other, essentially over who is less crazy? >> she was fired before the conspiracy even started up. she said something that was supposedly crazy and the trump people got rid of her. >> evidence the will show she was not the driving force behind that. >> in the end, the judge did deny their requests so they will be tried together. joining me, the justice correspondent and columnist for the nation magazine. jim, i want to start with you. the fulton county d.a.'s office, they have a plan for a four-month trial. they could hold the trial as soon as next month for all the defendants but will this ensure that we won't even see it in the next year because of how sprawling this all is? >> look, i think you can see perhaps those two tried on the 23rd. but you have to take into consideration the rights of the other defendants there. and them not looking, asking for their speedy trial rights. i think it is unlikely that you will see a trial on the 23rd with all the defendants. i think there will be a will the of pretrial motions. you have 150 witnesses. a lot of motions related to evidentiary issues. a lot of motions to dismiss. and quite frankly, as clean as jack smith's case was, this one is just a mess in terms of trying to manage it from the judge's perspective. sure, there have been cases around the country that all the defendants in that number have been tried before. but i don't think it is likely to happen in this case, given all the complex issues. i think you're not looking at a georgia case until next year or even the year after. >> so -- >> when i say next year, i may not 2025. >> right. the next year after the presidential election. the former justice department prosecutor andrew wiceman, he says that it really is absurd. overtraying a case is never a good thing for the government. there is in a way a principle here of trying to get a conviction. not just trying to make a appoipoint? is he right? >> we only talk about overtrying a case when we have that. we never say when it is about people of color. we never talk about it when it is a drug kingpin or a terrorist. what he saw, i'm glad the american people got to see was a rico trial. yes, it is large, it is complicated. you see why we have the rico statute. what happened in that court ram today within minutes, all the defendants, oh, it was not me, it was her. i don't know nothing. the reason you have a rico trial, you try them all together so they can't get away with it. so they were all part of the same criminal conspiracy. i fundamentally agree that it will take a while. i don't really think that it will happen until 2025 because the nature of rico is messy. but i don't think that because we are doing a rico trial, that necessarily means that anybody is being overcharged or overprosecuted. they all potentially, allegedly, were part of a conspiracy to overthrow the election in georgia. so we are going to try them all together and that is what rico is for. >> jim, you brought up the point -- >> you might even see -- >> go ahead. >> you still have these determinations that need to be made by the federal judge and the folks had a said they need to be tried federally. that'll will delay it even more. they are issues that will be taken up and decided and will delay this thing further down the road. >> so -- >> the federal issues are still live -- >> go ahead. >> i was going to say, the federal issues are still live. we don't know what u.s. district judge jones will do about that case. i don't think meadows has a great case to remove it to federal court. however, because of the nature of rico, if you start taking one defendant out and removing them to federal court, you have an argument, and this came up in the hearing. maybe you have to remove the whole case to federal court. so there's a lot to play out. that means that we are unlikely to see, this is not going to be a snappy law and order resolution right before the commercial break. this will take some time. but you know, the wheels of justice do move slowly but they do move. what we saw today was the start of movement to hold these people accountable for their alleged crimes. >> well, look, fani willis is the one who says she wants to do this quickly as well. some of the defendants have asked for their speedy trial rights. she said i'm ready to go next month. it sounds like based on the case she put together, it can't possibly be as quick as that for all the co-defendants. stand by for me for a moment here. also, new tonight, one of donald trump's aides is flipping on him. that mar-a-lago i.t. worker who was threatened with prosecution in the documents case is cooperating with prosecutors now. and as a result, he will not be prosecuted in that case. this come as trump says that he is willing to testify in his cases. >> if you have to go to trial, will you testify in your own defense? >> oh, yes, absolutely. that i look forward to. >> now, if history is any indicator, don't hold your breath for that. like that time that he declined to testify in the e. jean carroll case, or the time that he refused to testify in the january 6th hearing, or the time he declined to testify in the investigation of his real estate empire, and the time he refused to testify in the hush money case. also, there is the time he wouldn't testify at his own impeachment trial or the time he didn't sit down with robert mueller, even though he said that he would. >> i'm looking forward to it, actually. >> talking about two or three weeks, but i would love tad it. >> you see the trend hear. who is he kidding? >> not me. look, trump is a layer so he is lying. the fact that he's lying is one of the reasons why he can't testify. if he testifies, he will lie. and he will catch himself another indictment. this time for perjury. joe is less of a perjury risk than donald trump putting him on the stand. no lawyer, no lawyer who has been through, i would say, three months of law school would dare to put trump on the stand to lie some more. so no, he won't testify. he knows he won't testify. his lawyers know he won't testify. all of this is another lie from donald trump. >> jim, you know him. you also have the distinction of being a former lawyer for donald trump. what say you? >> so, look. i think this is just more donald trump bravado, right? there is no chance that he will testify at these trials. there is no chance that his lawyers will agree for him to do that. so i agree with everything he's saying. i don't think there's any chance he testifies and there is no lawyer in their right mind that would allow him to testify. >> so we were talking about the mar-a-lago worker who struck the deal with the special counsel's office. he's agreed to testify in the classified documents case. until exchange, he won't be prosecuted. jim, i wonder, this idea if you turn on trump, you don't get prosecuted. can the other co-defendants, or even unindicted co-conspirators hang their hat on that? if they flip, they escape all consequences here? >> it depends on the conduct and the allegations that have been made against those particular defendants in those cases. there may be some break that they're given. they may not be given immunity. they all have to be looking over their shoulder right now, looking at that, looking at that, at that former defendant in the case did. the deal that he made and saying, maybe i should be doing the same thing to save may skin. that has to make trump really nervous. any other defendants in the case nervous, because they'll be looking around saying, had a is going next? >> yeah. >> and from a paurely psychological perspective hour, big of a deal is this for the special counsel's team? >> i think the real issue is that trump doesn't have any more pardons to sell. he's not the president. he can't dangle pardons in front of these people. he can only say if he gets elected president again, maybe he'll pardon them. even that doesn't work for georgia. so one of the reasons trump has been able to avoid accountability prosecution for so long, most of his people had stayed amazingly loyal to him. roger stone, paul manafort, people have done that for donald trump. this might be where it all starts to break down. once his own people start turning on him and start telling the truth to prosecutors and to the states, things will get even worse for a person now under four, five indictments. >> i have a feeling there will be quite a few more twists and turns in this case. you have at least in the documents case, two individuals who have attorneys who are tied to trump. that in and of itself is a big source of problems down the road for those co-defendants and perhaps for trump as well. thank you very much, both of you. up next, a watch dog group sues to keep trump off the ballot, citing the 14th amendment. that group makes its case right here, next. plus, an obama campaign veteran calls his party a bunch of bed wetters and tells them to relax about biden's chances. hours later we're learning that hunter biden is about to be indicted. and we're now seeing video of how the inmate escaped the prison as the manhunt intensifies by the hour. ♪ chevy silverado has what it takes to do it all. with up to 13 camera views. and the z71 off-road package. ♪ you ok? yeah. any truck can help you make a living. this one helps you build a life. chevy silverado. ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ ( ♪ ) woah. ( ♪ ) ( ♪ ) ( ♪ ) ( ♪ ) constant contact delivers the marketing tools your small business needs to keep up, excel, and grow. constant contact. helping the small stand tall. why is aaron happy? well, just days ago, his old wheels gave out, but he knew carvana had his back. that's because carvana had thousands of cars under twenty thousand dollars. and with the new cosigner option, aaron's folks were able to help him out with a new ride. “no way.” yes way. with thousands of cars under $20,000 and our cosigner option we'll drive you happy, at carvana. remember the things you loved... ...before asthma got in the way? fasenra is an add-on treatment for asthma driven by eosinophils. it's designed to target and remove them and helps prevent asthma attacks. fasenra is not for sudden breathing problems or other eosinophilic conditions. allergic reactions may occur. don't stop your asthma treatments without talking with your doctor. tell your doctor if your asthma worsens. headache and sore throat may occur. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. get back to better breathing. ask your doctor about fasenra. my brain. so i choose new neuriva ultra. unlike some others, it supports 7 brain health indicators, including mental alertness from one serving. to help keep me sharp. try new neuriva ultra. think bigger. this donald trump be banned from a ballot? a new lawsuit is trying to make that happen. a watch dog suing on behalf of voters in colorado to keep trump off the 2024 republican primary ballot there. their argument stems from a rarely used provision of the 14th amendment that bans insurrectionists from holding public office. colorado's secretary of state, a democrat, said in a statement, that she hopes this case will provide guidance to election officials on trump's eligibility as candidate for office. the executive director of that watch dog group, citizens for responsibility and ethics in washington, know a bookbinder joins me now. noah, thank you for being hear. >> thanks for having me. >> so noah, i want to put you to the test a little bit here on some of this. while understand what is so appealing about this for a lot of people, frankly, this is really, really untested. i do wonder though, first of all, why clues the state of colorado which biden won pretty handily by almost 500,000 votes? >> colorado really emerged as our lawyers looked state by state as a particularly good first place for this kind of lawsuit for a couple reasons. first of all, different states have different laws as to how you can challenge the qualifications of a candidate for office. and colorado has a statute that says that the secretary of state is required to remove from the ballot anyone who is constitutionally unqualified. it also has a law that says that citizens can go to court to challenge a candidate who is not qualified. it has a procedure built in. a quick procedure. it is relatively early in the primary calendar so that the case will be ready earlier than other places. it had a terrific group of grags plaintiffs willing to take a stand on this. we thought it was a good first stop. it won't be the last stop. we will bring other cases as well. >> so just days before trump launched his presidential bid a year ago, you warned him in a letter that you would pursue this very thing, disqualifying him from holding public office. why did you wait a full year to file? >> we wanted to bring the case when a court was going to consider it to be ripe. when a court wouldn't throw it out as premature. and also, because we are ready to go in with witnesses, with evidence to put on a full case and prove that donald trump is constitutionally disqualified. that takes time to get a team together. to get all that evidence together. that's what we've been hard at work on for that year. >> so what are the sticking points here, that the 14th amendment does not have any context about what the due process is for people who might be subject to it. who does get to decide who has violated the 14th amendment? >> well, as you said, this has been little used and that's a fortunate thing west haven't had a lot of insurrections in this country. but it has been used. there is case law in the 1860s after the civil war and there is a case my organization represents new mexico residents in a case last year gerns a county commissioner, who was an organizer of the january 6th insurrection. >> can i just jump in here only for context for our viewers. tell cases in the civil-war era were against people who actually fought in the civil war. so there is that. then the case you just mentioned about 2022, that individual was actually convicted of playing a role in january 6th. what is missing here for trump is a conviction. >> so it's interesting. so griffin was convicted of a misdemeanor offense of essentially trespassing. he was not convicted of insurrection. and none of the post civil war cases involve people who were charged with or convicted of insurrection. there is actually a whole lot of case law saying this is a totally different thing from criminal cases. this isn't a criminal punishment. it is a qualification. like the constitution says you have to be at least 35 to run for president. and you can go to court. if a 23-year-old runs for president, you can go to court and say this person is not constitutionally qualified. you have to establish with evidence that they're in fact 23 years old. not 35. and if you do, they're off the ballot. it's the same thing here. obviously, the substance is much more serious, but if we can go to court and it's a civil trial. you prove by a preponderance of the evidence that there was an insurrection. that this person, in this case, donald trump engaged in that insurrection, and we did that in the case of griffin in new mexico, totally apart from his misdemeanor conviction, and in that case a judge ruled that he was disqualified. that can happen here as well. >> i don't want to hold you too much to your example of the qualifications on age because i think it is pretty clear, those are not really that comparable. this is a question of who gets to decide, a, what an insurrection is, whether someone's conduct constituted engaging in an insurrection, whether that should be applied in a particular area. it's really quite different. and i will say, because frankly, you can prove from a factual perspective how old a person is. those other questions are difficult. but what underlies a lot of this is, the american people are being asked to say, okay, we'll let judges decide that. do you understand why some people might not be comfortable with that? >> i certainly do. i would say that, look, deciding difficult issues, particularly difficult constitutional issues is why we have courts. that's what our courts do every day. i take your point that somebody's age is a much simpler question. tell american court system decides what the questions mean and who does it apply to on a daily basis, and in this case, whether you look at what the house select committee on january 6th found, or what conservative scholars, professors, a very prominent conservative scholars were, a lot of people across the political spectrum are looking at this and they're saying, the law and the facts are very clear here. now, it is true that certainly one line of criticism is, shouldn't the american people get to vote? and one of the retorts to that is that is what happened in 2020. the american people got to decide whether they wanted to vote for donald trump. they didn't vote for him. he refused to semithe result of that election and actually ultimately incited a violent attack. there is no particular reason to believe that the result would be different this time. so the idea that we just trust it to democracy when you're talking about someone who has literally attacked democracy is not particularly satisfying. >> one of the things you just mentioned is that you are gathering evidence, preparing to go to court. basically to have a trial on the subject. just explain to us here, are you suggesting that basically, you're going to put donald trump on trial in all these different jurisdictions and litigate the factual question of whether or not he participated in an insurrection? that sounds to me similar to the question that is being investigated at the federal level by jack smith. it sounds to me similar to the question being investigated at the state level in georgia. you all are going to do that state by state? >> we are starting in one state. we may well do others. and it is, these are not criminal trials. we're not trying to have anyone go to prison. this is just a question of qualification. but they are, you know, we are ready to make a comprehensive factual showing. and then we'll see what happens from there. that may enable future court cases. it also may empower secretaries of state who can make these constitutional decisions on their own but may not want to do that before a court has had the opportunity to look at evidence. they may be able to go do that without having the same kind of procedure in every state. >> a lot of secretaries of state, we read the statement yesterday to the michigan secretary of state as well. they believe this is going to the supreme court. this is a really conservative supreme court. donald trump has appointed several of its members. what makes you think you would be successful at the supreme court level if this goes there, as it might eventually? >> i do think that this is something that obviously is of tremendous national importance. it is certainly very possible that it will end up in front of the supreme court. and it's always hard to predict what the supreme court will do. i will say that this is a supreme court which actually has been pretty strong in taking the position that donald trump specifically is not exempt from it, not above the law, and is subject to oversight. it took that position in cases that came before it about whether congress could conduct oversight of donald trump. it is not a court that has in any sense seemed to want to condone the kind of insurrectionist activity we saw after the 2020 election. so i think, and i also would point back to the really impressive conservative scholars, including a prominent former judge, they came out and said the facts of the law are clear here that donald trump is disqualified under the 14th amendment. we think that we're going to be prepared to make a strong argument to the supreme court, if it gets that far, that they would be willing to listen. >> all right. we'll see how that turns out. thank you very much for joining us. >> thanks for having me. up next, hunter biden to be indicted. a senator dares republicans to impeach the president. and a former governor says if trump loses, the 2024 race will be the last one decided by ballots rather than bullets. i need it cool at night. you trying to ice me out of the bed? baby, only on game nights. you know you are retired right? am i? ya! thqueen sleep number c2 smart bed is now only $999. pl free home delivery when you add an adjustable base. shop now only at sleep number. ♪ i wanna hold you forever ♪ hey little bear bear. ♪ ♪ ♪ i'm gonna love you forever ♪ ♪ ♪ c'mon, bear. ♪ ♪ ♪ you don't...you don't have to worry... ♪ ♪ be by your side... i'll be there... ♪ ♪ with my arms wrapped around... ♪ here's how tommy lost 30 lbs on noom weight. i'm tom. noom helped him use psychology to lose weight. the mindful aspect made me feel more conscious about what i was eating and why i was eating it. it's actually working. lose weight and make it last with noom weight. sometimes jonah wrestles with falling asleep... ...so he takes zzzquil. the world's #1 sleep aid brand for a better night sleep. so now, he wakes up feeling like himself. the reigning family room middle-weight champion. better days start with zzzquil nights. (♪♪) (♪♪) the new stuffed quesadillas. only at el pollo loco here's why you should switch fo to duckduckgo on all your devie duckduckgo comes with a built n engine like google, but it's pi and doesn't spy on your searchs and duckduckgo lets you browse like chrome, but it blocks cooi and creepy ads that follow youa from google and other companie. and there's no catch, it's fre. we make money from ads, but they don't follow you aroud join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. ♪ the new summer family meal. starting at $24. only at el pollo loco. a brand new court filing from the special counsel investigating hunter biden reveals plans to indict the president's son on gun charges by the end of this month. hunter biden had previously reached a deal involving a gun possession charge which would have allowed him to avoid prosecution if he met certain conditions. but that deal fell apart in court last month. cnn anchor and chief political correspondent dana bash joins me now. this is clearly a legal problem for hunter biden. if you're the white house, the president's campaign, how much of a political problem is this? >> it is certainly not a welcome development. let's make that very clear, just to state the blatant obvious. it is one thing for republicans in congress, particularly those who have control of the house of representatives to be waging investigations into hunter biden, making claim that they haven't yet proven with any kind of evidence about hunter biden and his father. it's a whole different thing when the biden justice department, through a special counsel, who became a special counsel last month, but yet, it is still the biden justice department files charges and what we will likely see will be an indictment of the president's son. now, is this a major issue in the grand scheme of things? no. this is a gun charge, as you mentioned. it is a charge based on the fact that he signed a form when he bought a gun saying that he was not under the influence of drugs, and that was not true. he was taking drugs. he is now very open about the fact that he was addicted to crack cocaine. so the biden, hunter biden legal team, they insist this is something they'll figure out and that they will maybe try to dismiss it down the road. if this present state, it is not great news for biden in any way, legally or politically. >> yeah. it is potentially a double-edged sword for biden. this is all happening on the same day that jim messina who led barack obama's 2012 campaign is sending a message to democrats saying, don't worry so much about the president's re-election chances. he's arguing that biden is in a better position than most people realize. but first of all, the poll say otherwise. and i know you and i remember in 2016 when other obama alums were basically making the same argument about trump. and you know, we ended one donald trump as president of the united states. >> they were wrong. >> yeah. that's right. >> you're exactly right. and also, you and i both know that telling democrats not to be, in jim messina's words, bedwetters is like telling the sun not to rise in the east and telling the ocean not to have waves come up on the beach. it just won't happen. and again, this is democrats who admit this over and over again. the big argument that messina made in this series of slides, in a slide show that he made, was about the economy. and arguing that the economy isn't that bad. he used statistics, talking about the misery index, that it is in a better position when barack obama was reelected and messina ran back. one of the things that has not gotten that much attention in messina's presentation was the idea that a third party candidate and/or a pretty serious challenger within the democratic party could be something the democrats need to be paying much more attention to. he noted that, when you look at the primary challenge, jimmy carter was challenged, didn't win re-election. george h.w. bush was challenged, didn't win re-election. on the flip side, the third party, if it is so tight as we expect it to be, any little bit of erosion when it comes to joe biden's support could help donald trump, and he's talking about people like cornell west or maybe, the no labels organization, still very much flirting with the third party run. >> yeah. that seems to be the thing that a lot of people in biden world are keeping their eye on and most concerned about. i want to get you to respond to this. this is from former arkansas governor mike huckabee who today made some waves when he said this on his show. >> people in power use their police agencies to arrest their opponents for made-up crimes in an attempt to discredit them, bankrupt them, imprison them, exile them, or all the above. if you're not paying attention, you may not realize that joe biden is using exactly those tactics to make sure donald trump is not his opponent in 2024. here's the problem. if these tactics end up winning to keep trump from winning or even running in 2024, it will be the last american election that will be decided by ballots, rather than bullets. >> i mean, you can call it loose language. honestly, it is just, it seems really irresponsible. >> it is part of a pattern. never mind the former president who has used similar language, not just pre-january 6th in 2020 and the beginning of 2021, but even recently as a candidate, and other republicans. and that is what is so dangerous. that this isn't a one-off from a former governor in arkansas. former presidential candidate who knows better, but it is a time when you're hearing from people trying to make the argument against joe biden, making the weaponization argument, the justice department argument, but taking it so much further than they know is responsible to do, especially given the fact that we just have to look at january 6th to see how this kind of rhetoric has consequences. >> yeah. we already, what the consequences are, unfortunately. thank you so much for joining us tonight. really appreciate it. >> great to see you. great to be hear. he crab-walked up a wall, he scaled a fence and more to escape prison. see the video next. and a new twist in the murdoch murder case that no one saw coming. see fit. rosie used part of her refund to build an outdoor patio. clink! drdr. marshall used part of his refund to give his practice a facelilift. emily used part of her refund to buy... i run a wax museum. let innovation refunds help you get started on your erc tax refund. stop waiting. go to innovationrefunds.com you really got the brows. for your most brilliant smile, crest has you covered. ♪ (laughing) nice smile, brad. nice! thanks? crest 3d white. 100% more stain removal. crest. it's started. it's... the side hug. tween milestones like this may start at age 9. hpv vaccination—a type of cancer prevention against certain hpv-related cancers, can start then too. for most, hpv clears on its own. but for others, it can cause certain cancers later in life. you're welcome! now, as the “dad cab”, it's my cue to help protect them. embrace this phase. help protect them in the next. ask their doctor today about hpv vaccination. tonight, a dangerous killer is on the loose after daring to escape from prison. we are now seeing how he did it. just look at this video of convicted murderer danelo cavalcante crab-walking between two wall at chester county, pennsylvania. police say that once he claimed those walls, cavalcante pushed his way through two layers of razor wire, and incredibly, another inmate at that same prison made an identical escape just four months ago. he was captured within a few minutes of his escape. he's, cavalcante has been on the run for a full week. joining me now, kevin, the sheriff in franklin county, new york, when two convicted murderers escaped from prison in 2015. they had help from a former prison employee who was enamored with the man. she smuggled weapons in. one of the inmates was recaptured. the other was killed in a shoot-out with police. now, kevin, the prison warden here in pennsylvania is calling this basically a failure on the human side. what do you see when you watch that video? >> i think it goes to show, inmates, just because they're in jail doesn't may not they're not an intelligent person, doesn't mean they lack fortitude. he does not want to be incarcerated and he would do anything to get out. it is almost ninja-like. it takes a real planner to look at something like this and be able to pull it off. >> he almost makes it look easy. the thing is, just four months ago, another prisoner basically did the same thing. not only escaped from the same prison but used the same climbing method. the prison added the razor wear to try to block access to the roof. can a person ever really be made completely escape proof? >> well, they were the first to ever escape from that state facility. as a franklin county sheriff, i ran the franklin county jail. you do top to bottom inspections and you always try to plan for any given scenario. but you're competing against people who have nothing else to do, 24/7, but to plan their escape and plan their route and plan what they want to do. >> this search has been going on for a week. there have been multiple sightings. investigators have spotted foot prints today. when you led the search for the prisoners from the maximum security prison, that took three weeks. do you think in this case it could take that long? >> i think they're dealing with a lot smaller area than we had. i'm sure they're using as many or maybe even more resources. resources will be the key. the other key is the public. if you see something, say something. it's important to get that communication to the right people in the right hands. i know they've had sightings. that just indicates to me they're getting closer. the thing they have to do is keep pushing him. don't give him a chance to rest. keep pushing him. keep bringing in fresh horses. new dogs, new officers. just keep on the chase. it's important. we have to catch this guy before he hurts somebody. he's a bad man. >> yeah. a convicted murderer here. thank you very much. >> thanks for having me. there's a new twist to the murdoch family murders case. the court clerk is being accused of tampering with the jury. the co-author of that clerk's tell-all book about the trial is here to respond, next. ♪ chevy silverado has what i it takes to do it all. with up to 13 camera views. and d the z71 off-road package. ♪ you ok? yeah. any truck can help you make a living. this one helps you build a life. chevy silverado. i just found the biggest weight loss hack for ya'll! ♪ the truth is there is no quick fix... ...but there is a more effective way to lose weight and it isn't what you think. it's actually noom. it's two times more effective than doing it on your own. get started right now by taking the noom quiz. my frequent heartburn had me taking antacid after antacid all day long but with prilosec otc just one pill a day blocks heartburn for a full 24 hours. for one and done heartburn relief, prilosec otc. one pill a day, 24 hours, zero heartburn. >> one of the most watched trials of the year has a new twist now. attorneys for disgraced lawyer turned convicted murderer alex murdaugh are pushing for a new trial. they are accusing the clerk of the court of tampering with the jury. rebecca hale is accused of advising jurors not to believe murdaugh's testimony in pressuring them to make a guilty verdict. they claim she did these things to secure, for herself, a book deal and media appearances that would not happen in the event of a mistrial. she coauthored that book with my next guest. it is called "behind the doors of justice: the murdaugh murders". hill is not responding to these allegations, but my next guest, neil gordon, is. neil, thanks for being here. i want to first just get you to respond to some of these allegations. one of the jurors says that hail instructed the jury to, quote, watch murdaugh closely and to look at his actions and movement. that juror says they interpreted those instructions to mean that murdaugh was guilty. did she say that? >> not to me. we spent four months together working on that book and i asked her many, many questions about all of her duties, which included working with the jury, with the judge, with the witnesses, with the media and with the public. and we went through just a litany of questions, and nothing like that ever came up whatsoever. and i was not they are at the trial and did not meet becky until three weeks after the trial as well. >> one of the things she is also accused of doing is instructing the jury to not be misled by murdaugh's defense. you have spoken to her recently, as these allegations have come up. what is she saying to all of this? >> right now -- i did speak with her this evening, as a matter of fact, abby, and she has been kind of huddled up in her, home with her husband, reviewing pages and pages of these allegations. and they are taking them one at the time through the affidavits, very carefully. she has attorneys that are advising her. these are very serious allegations. and she is going to answer them one by one, and then passed them on to her attorney, and then the attorney will be presenting things in terms of the response, through a court filing. and, at that point, she will feel comfortable responding to the allegations. but, she is very anxious to respond. >> so, she didn't deny them to you, when you spoke to her today? >> oh, she has said before on a few conversations that have appeared on some cable websites -- she simply said, these are not true. i need time to respond to these allegations. so, that's all that i can tell you. >> the filing also argues that hill pressured jurors to come to their conclusion in their deliberations quickly, even adding that smokers can't smoke and take smoke breaks until after the deliberations were completed. as you pointed out, these are really serious allegations here. does it sound like something, that this person that you have spent quite a lot of time with, would have done? >> very interesting. you know, walter burrel was considered to be, like mayberry. and if walter burrel's mayberry, then becky hale would be much like aunt bee. i don't know if you ever watched mayberry, very much, or on the reruns, but the point is, i have never heard her raise her voice. i have never heard her pressure anyone. i don't think it's in her dna. certain people are just very reserved and very measured with their thoughts. and that is how i would describe becky tua t. so, i find that extremely hard to believe, just from the time that i spent with her. and i don't know too much, again, about the smoke situation that you brought up. but, the way that kind of the court system works is, with becky having so much over arching responsibility in all those areas i described earlier, the chief bailiff, really, his one role, was to carefully watched the jurors. and make sure that they were in the correct place at the right time. >> sure. i want to you to, just before you go or -- i mean, you wrote this book with her, right? and one of the allegations is that the whole point of her trying to get a quick verdict is that she wanted the notoriety that came with this book. that is also a very serious allegation that would kind of embroil you into some of this as well. >> very fair, abby. and i take extreme exception to what the attorneys -- and griffin said at the press conference. they just got it wrong. the fact is, there was no book deal coming her way or our way. we spent $30,000 of our life savings together, our families, to be able to purchase books in advance and get orders, and deal with attorneys, and everything that we needed to do to be able to -- and cover this book. so, not only did we not receive an advance, and money, but we came out pocket. so, none of that made sense to me. >> all. right neil gordon, thanks for joining us. and thanks for answering those questions. >> it's my pleasure, abby. >> and, just in, a surprise announcement from bruce springsteen -- why he is suddenly canceling a month's worth of shows. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ ( ♪ ) ( ♪ ) ( ♪ ) -awww. -awww. -awww. -nope. ( ♪ ) constant contact delivers the marketing tools your small business needs to keep up, excel, and grow. constant contact. helping the small stand tall. (light acoustic music plays) (eagle screeches) (energetic music plays) there he is! it's right there! ♪ oh, he's straight ahead. he's straight ahead. straight ahead. go go go. ♪ cover more ground in the kia sportage turbo-hybrid. kia. movement that inspires. do you struggle with occasional nerve aches in your hands or feet? try nervive nerve relief from the world's number one nerve care company. nervive contains ala to relieve nerve aches, and b-complex vitamins to fortify healthy nerves. try nervive. and, try nervive pain relieving roll-on. my cholesterol is borderline. so i take garlique to help maintain healthy cholesterol safely and naturally. and it's odor free. i'm taking charge of my cholesterol with garlique. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> bad news for fans of the bo