will be back in the room right now seeing a news night with abby. phillip starts the jury is deciding donald trump's fate and he is invoking mother teresa. >> that's tonight on newsnight good evening. >> i'm abby phillip new york tonight. a jury of 12 men and women are considering whether to make donald trump, the first former president to be convicted of a crime after receiving instructions from the judge today, they deliberated for more than four hours and then they send back to notes. you'll hear what those notes were in just a moment and we'll discuss the significance of each of them. but first, you heard the prosecution and the defense making their closing arguments this week, the jury is deliberating over those right now. but now donald trump is making his own closing argument in the court of public opinion. it won't come as a surprise to you that it needs a hell of a lot of fact-checking i mean, what is very unfair as it i'm not campaigning. >> did this room all day from morning to night. >> in the vitamin, which now there were many days before. and during this trial, and we've outlined them here on this show that trump decided not to hit the campaign trail and instead, he wanted to campaign from the court take a look, at where the people come from it's a vitamin which is weaponization to be clear, this is a local case with zero evidence that biden orchestrated these prosecutions so it seems that there are a lot of witnesses. what people that they could have called that they didn't call now they didn't call them obviously because they would've been very bad witnesses but take a look at this. >> and because of the gag order, i want to go down into individual names now, this is an educated guess, but let's assume he's talking about his former cfo, allen weisselberg, who is right now behind bars. >> also, there's keith schiller hello, or his former body man. now the prosecution bears the burden of proof here. the defense didn't call these witnesses either, nor did they call donald trump himself. >> you have a lot of big players, very big players and what he saw the problem or actually would have given us the way we already have the wind we had a fair judge, this case would have been over a long time but a lot of key witnesses, we're not again, the defense his defense lawyers chose not to call the very witnesses that he said, would exonerate him it's not the judge ultimately that made that decision anyway, it's the stone-faced lawyer right there standing right beside him. >> now, here's more from trump earlier it's a disgrace and i mean that mother teresa conducting charges, but we'll see we'll see how we do now. >> it's very unlikely that the st would be involved in paying off porn stars to keep silent about a one night stand. but it's become a trend with trump he likens himself or compares himself to historical figures. there was jesus lincoln, reagan, mandela elvis capone, churchill. and of course, who could forget mona lisa now, as i mentioned earlier, during their deliberations today, the jury they sent two notes back to the judge with some questions. we've got joey jackson here to explain what they were. joey. yes. so abi two big notes. let's talk about what the notes were. note number one, request for four sections of the testimony to be read back. what did that relate to? abby? three things dealing with david pecker, of course, we know ceo of the national enquirer and one dealing with cohen, cohen's important to me because an everyone because of the fact that if you're looking for his testimony, it means a jury did not disregard it. so what specifically what was about the trial transcript number one, abby, the pecker and trump phone call well, when did that happen? june of 2016. what was the nature of that conversation? you remember karen mcdougal, the playboy model, buying the rights so that she could be silenced in a story that was number one. let's look at number two packer saying no deal as it relates to the mcdougal deal, right? saying it's over and you can look at this the transcript for yourself with respect to when he said that is pecker on backing out of it going into and speaking with cohen with respect to what that would look like. >> and so what else we have this whole catch and kill theme now, why is this significant, abby? >> it's significant if you remember the prosecutor's argument, the prosecution really highlighted this, highlighted did what you see it right there. there's august of 2015 meeting where trump tower involving who you see, the people there, what did michael cohen have to say with respect to what happened in that meeting? what did david pecker have to say that happened in the meeting? we know that trump was a part of the meeting. we also know hope hicks hurt her testify she was in and out of the meeting. and so that related to that, what did they do now, juror note number two request to reread the jury instructions relating to how they figure out this case. remember, abby, that the jury is the finder of fact, but they need the law with respect to what to apply it to the instruction tens themselves. some 55 pages, not clear as to whether or not the jurors want specific sections relating to the charges that there'll be deliberating on whether they want the totality of that are along with regard to the jury instructions, read back to them. we'll get more clarity on that tomorrow, but that relates to the notes that we saw today all right. >> joey jackson, standby for us. i'm joined now by anna bauer, court correspondent for lawfare, also with us cnn legal analysts michael moore. he's a former us attorney and criminal defense attorney, or cds. colvin is also with us. this is the moment for the tea leaves, right? the jury's crystal ball. first of all, i want to know but this all means. so what do you see that they come back and they want these very specific sections being red, but they're kind of consistent because they all sort of delve into the david pecker of it all. >> what did your tea leaves tell you about what they might've been looking for? >> well, and i'm glad to be with you this i never put too much stock in jury questions. they're interesting to hear. but if you do go to fall on, then you just need to go buy lottery tickets because you'll have about as much luck. so tried to figure out what they're doing. one thing that i thought was interesting was that they ask these questions about testimony around the same time they asked for the charges that tells me that they're not necessarily early settled one way or another if they already were comfortable in the exact thing they did to find are the piece of testimony they needed or how to treat michael coe or how to treat the corroboration they may not needed the charges. so now we see that they're probably comparing what pecker said versus what cohen said. and as it corroborate because you remember the judge told them you can't go convict based just on what michael cohen said. he's part of this. so i think they're looking for those things. maybe they're trying to discount cohen or they're trying to corroborate them. >> but i think the charge is the fact that they're asking for the charges tells us that there might be they're still trying to figure out exactly how to marry these two things together. >> the conflicts and then the other testimony. yeah. well, that's that would be a huge deal because that is that the crux of the case. you have to marry the two together. what did you see mercedes is a defense attorney looking at those questions that came out, i would feel a little sick to my stomach because i'm thinking to myself, wait, i gave you so you remember todd blanche game ten reasons, to exonerate donald trump none of the teams that those were cast aside and then the focus was was there ever this agreement between these individuals that this pain these payments to stormy daniel's were because of a campaign issue, because of donald trump's campaign. >> and they zeroed in on that, that meeting 2015, about this whole agreement, whether to do the catch and kill that's going to be so critical. that's one of the reasons i'm sure that the defense attorney was feeling a little uncomfortable at some of those reed beds. >> so anna, even in court, all this whole time really, and you were there today when all of this was unfolding. one of the interesting things about how this plays out. there's a buzzer that goes off when they have something to say and you don't know if it's going to be we have a verdict or if it's going to be what it was today. >> so there are some outstanding questions that remain even from the jury's questions will they get the whole jury instructions, re-read to them? >> how are they going to sort some of those things out, right? >> so we will learn more about that tomorrow. we will learn if the jury will have all of those instructions read back to them, they get to tell the judge what they want. that is what justice merchan told them today. he said, you can tell me whatever you come in tomorrow, think about it a little bit, but then we also have this other issue of how much of the testimony that they requested will actually be re-read to them. justice marshall cohen indicated today that it will take about half an hour to reread that testimony because keep in mind, they do have a laptop that has all of the exhibits that were introduced into evidence, things like phone records, text messages, those things, so they can examine that. but if they want to have testimony re-read it up to them, it has to actually be read aloud. so there'll be brought in tomorrow at some point, the parties were working out this afternoon. exactly how much of that testimony to read they were conferring, having a few disagreements i think over and they object to some of the testimony being re-read, even though it's already in evidence, they can definitely. so the lawyers are working out how much of this testimony is going to come in and there's lots of fighting about that. you want contexts, you want it to be fully explained to the jury. otherwise, you're just going to be cherokee. things which are going to be problematic. >> it is interesting that they don't even get access to these so-called transcripts. but you were explaining to me earlier why that is well it takes a court reporter for a certain amount of time to make sure the transcript is accurate and it's fully complete. and so that they need a certified copies. so if you tried to give sort of a real-time coffee or an immediate immediate copy after the trial that can pose a problem because it may in fact have errors in it. you see something that should be a no, that's recorded just in an air. that record is yes. and so it's a problem one of them rely on source a source of more fighting between the lawyers. we saw joey with us because joey the right-wing media saying that in those jury instructions, judge merchan told the jury that they don't need you unanimity to convict on the underlying crime here. is that true or false that would be false and criminal okay. >> so as you need a unanimous verdict and the jury has to make that decision. so let's go back to the video tape, so to speak, in the deliberations, we know we talked about at abbey, there was that 55 page read today, one hour all over that. right. you see the verdict. you can read it for yourself, has to be unanimous. you see what the judge is saying, deliberate. you to do so with a view towards reaching a unanimous verdict. and so by all means, though, all the jurors have to a great, now let's just explain something. there is this law here, right? it is the new york election law. now this new york election law will not read that to you, but it's pretty dense. but there's an explainer as it relates to that abby and as to how this judge and the jury has instruct the jury with respect to make a finding and what is the explainer relating to that? this is the explainer we know about the falsification of business records. what do you need to make that conclusion in accordance with the jury instructions you have to have these records. we know there will ledgers, invoices and checks. they has to be some intention with respect to while suffocation, your job is not done if you're a juror, if you find that, then as we know, it's about concealing some other crime. what does that other crime when you look right here, it relates to a state campaign finance crime. now the jury has to reach the conclusion that you did that engage in that violation for unlawful means. now here's where right-wing media is going left as it relates to explaining that all the jury has to conclude abby, is that there's unlawful means. there's a number of ways for the jury to get there. what are those ways the jury can make that decision by saying that there was a federal campaign finance law violation. the jury can also say was falsification of business records. the jury can also say there was tax fraud as to those issues, as long as they find unlawful means, ball game over, there's a conviction should they not, then of course, there's an acquittal alright. >> joey jackson. thank you very much. and everyone here. thank you very much as well. so how long have other high-profile juries deliberated we'll examine that plus new drama tonight involving a case that we will decide if donald trump has absolute immunity by justice alito is refusing to recuse himself and it's tripping down tripling down on blaming his wife for all of this. and also breaking news in the war, you sides that israel is coming very close to crossing president biden's red line. if they haven't already this is newsnight assignments are going on and the tornado here. i'm thinking, i'm going to die. and i thought that was it fine when earth with liev schreiber, premiere sunday he had nine on cnn are the facts classic first-timers. >> they don't know that nearly half of all us bars have 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businesses like ours before in the stanley cup, fairclough life is on the line right now to now? >> distractions goodness serious still feel high white guy and. sickness. and in health to having to hold and to fly is some flags tonight, the supreme court justice samuel alito has a crystal clear defense for staying on cases related to donald trump in january 6, my wife did it you'll recall an upside down flag, which at the time was a stop the steal symbol was displayed at their home after the insurrection. now, last year, another provocative flag that the maga movement has adopted flew at their beach house in an extraordinary letter to house, the congressional democrats today, alito is refusing to recuse himself from cases like donald trump's claim of absolute immunity here is part of his explanation for that, quote. the two incidents you cite do not meet the conditions for recusal as i have said publicly, i had nothing whatsoever to do with the flag flying i wasn't not even aware the upside down flag of the upside-down flag until it was called to my attention well, it's worth noting. he doesn't deny that the upside down flag does represent the insurrection in that case. and he goes on to say, quote, my wife is a private citizen and she possesses the same first amendment rights as every other amount arkin. she makes her own decisions and i have always respected her right to do so. my wife is fond of flying flags. i am not joining me now, the chief content officer for the daily beast, joanna coals, along with cnn anchor and correspondent audie cornish. she's also the host of the podcast, the assignment. so doing. a this is just such an eyebrow-raising situation. but i think there's there's maybe the legalities of the ethics around the supreme court. and then there's just plain old common sense. are we to really believe you didn't notice an upside down flag flying outside of his home until someone else pointed it out to him. >> well, first, who is mrs. alito and this mysterious figure that suddenly emerged on the on the neighborhood block. i think we're seeing a bit of a new season of the real housewives of the supreme court. >> i do think i've learned quite a lot about mrs. alito. well she's a temper with, her neighbors apparently, she spat on the neighbor's car, but she's actually rather fascinating woman. her father was an air traffic controller for the air force, which maybe where she got her passion for flags from. and she was a librarian before she got married, but we have a wonderful for peace and i wanted to read you a quick line from it now scoville, we just published a piece by her on the beast sad tonight and she says, while he has control over every woman's baby, making uterus, he does not have control over his wife's flag, lowering arms, which i thought was just a great expression actually, yeah, mrs. alito causing some damage on the coldest akre and virginia so lovely yeah i have a lovely place, apparently that called zack, but i mean, adi there's nothing that can be done about this at the end of the de i think we just have to state the obvious. >> they get to decide whether they break ethics rules and they get to decide whether they recused themselves. no one else they're not accountable to anyone else, right? >> i think over the last couple of years when there have been questions, ethics questions around taking gifts from billionaires, whether they be vacations or trips, et cetera. this has come up obviously, with justice clarence thomas, but also with alito himself. and the chief justice tried to do an ethics code like an ethics document, and you're right, it doesn't have an enforcement mechanism. the final say about whether you were qrs is you yourself as a justice and so it has put i think it's put a spotlight on these concerns about ethics without actually any meat on the bones of doing anything about it. and it is the kind of thing i think that as a deleterious effect on the public view of the court terms of whether it's part as it or not or in what ways it's the kind of thing where people look at it and think they just don't care, what, what the public thinks et cetera. yeah. >> go ahead. drown. well, no, i was going to say i think this is also a question that couples across america must be asking themselves this evening, honey, would you lower your flag for me? >> i mean, it's just astonishing xing that he said i asked her to low it and she didn't for several days. and you're like, well, what kind of a marriages this, how fascinating that she refused. >> i agree with you. i thought that was astonishing. i mean, look, that's maybe every marriage in america what drove back, like we tend and to think that partners have outsized influence on their policy making. spouses. i don't know if that's always the case, but it is a very washington thing to think that like, well, so-and-so has their ear. and so what kind of implications does that have? i think this is, this is so underlying because of ginni thomas wright, who has been known to very much be a part of the conversation about the election and the election lies that the president, the former president, was pushing. so i think people think, well that's one strike and then here's another strike. two justices that where you're questioning seeing their allegiances, so to speak, even as they're supposed to be non-partisan figures. >> i was going to say that it's also fascinating because of course justice alito to the dissenting opinion in the windsor case for the defense of marriage act. and so we know that he believes that marriage is a permanent state, so they can't get divorced over this. i mean, happily we can rest assured that she may not take the flag down, but this is not going to come between me and i did not not too investigate their marriage or anything. i don't really care, but the issue is that he is a public figure and that a symbol that is outside of his home is actually a reflection of him and whether you like it or not, that's a that's a fact. i think the issue is the cases before them. >> i mean, there's the presidential immunity case where the seller today challenging so much more important because of the cases before the court and not just the presidential immunity case. they also have a case brought by a january 6 rioter who said that he's been overcharged using a very specific charge about destroying being part of destroying a official proceeding and so it doesn't affect just donald trump. there's also hundreds of people who have been charged to their cases could be affected based on the point of view of the court. >> well, it also seems like a little bit of a shield for these man. maybe it's alito, maybe it's clarence thomas, maybe it's menendez. everybody's wife as responsible for the well, he also says things that are happening. right. and justice alito also pointed out that their weekend house where the flag had also flown over a period of months. i believe we sent one of our reporters just in rural it down to track out the beach house in new jersey. the appeal to heaven flag? >> yes and i think the american flag upside down, but the justice made it very clear that that house was actually bought with his wife's money and it was in her name. so technically, of course, he's living there assuming living as as man and wife, but their house was actually in her name, which is a sort of interesting yeah that is an interesting technique. also everyone is going through this in their neighborhoods around the country, like the battle of the signs, the battle the political battles on their facebook. there's something about this story that strikes a chord because people are going through it in their regular law, the norms. >> it's a straight thankfully strain, none of us are supreme court justices. so be a good consequences are not so great for the rest. rest of us. joanna calls audie cornish great to have both of you here. and i had for us historian john meacham will join me on first lady jill biden's provocative framing of this next election plus new evidence tonight that israel is advancing inside of rafah, despite president biden's warning, democrat jamaal bowman joints me live next like we got ourselves a bad man right here we talked enough in these territories they don't come try, you will take from you until you are wiped clean from this leg he used that much this year everyone had much needed, but yeah in american saga only purples gel flex grid passes the rog tests. no other mattress cradles your body and simultaneously supports your spine. memory foam doesn't come close, get your best sleep guaranteed, safe up to $800 during our memorial day sale visit purple.com or store near you you got better things to do than clean out clog gutters, call me filter today. >> and never clean out clog gutters again, leaf filters technology keeps debris out of your gutters for good, guaranteed hello, a33 least seltzer today, or physically 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russia is we're trying to spy on us we were spying on them i was hadi friday this is a war, but secret was secrets and spies. a nuclear game premiere sunday at ten on cnn tonight either the us is in denial about israel's intentions, or president biden's red line is getting blurrier with each passing day of this war i made it clear that if they go into rafah, they haven't gone in rafah yet if they go into rafah, i'm not supplying the weapons that have been used historically to deal with rafah i deal with the cities that deal with that problem israel is right now advancing in rafah. that is a fact israeli tanks have been seen in the central part of the city's southern, a point which signals a new phrase in there, offensive down there this also comes through after three different israeli airstrikes in and around rod that has killed dozens of civilians and displacement camps. the idf says that its forces are operating being in a targeted and precise way. but of course, that means that they are there in rafah. so what is the red line now? here's what biden told erin burnett just a few weeks ago i've made it clear to bibi and the war cabinet they're not going to get our support. if in fact they go on these population centers here is what the white house is saying. >> now we don't want to see a major ground operation. we haven't seen that at this point. we still don't want to see if he israelis, as we say, smash into rafah with large units so over large pieces of a territory, we won't support a major ground operation in rafah. we haven't seen that happen at this point that red line is getting very thin. >> it seems joining me now to discuss this as democratic congressman jamaal bowman of new york, congressmen, great to have you here in the studio. you've said that we are way past the red line in gaza. what do you think are the consequences of biden setting this red line down? he said they can't go into the population centers. he said that he will stop supplying weapons if that happens. what are the consequences if that red line was there? and it doesn't get enforced. >> well, first of all, i just want to send my condolences to the palestinian people. they have lost so much over the last several months we condemn the attacks of october 7, but we also condemn everything that has happened since october 7. so i want to stop there i'm very concerned about how the united states is perceived on the world stage are we are moral leader, are we a diplomatic leader are we really a leader for peace? injustice, and the liberation of all people who are oppressed and now we focused on keeping everyone safe. now, just the israelis, but the palestinians as well. >> i'm so i'm very concerned about how we look on the global stage. >> and i'm also concerned at biden getting reelected. we need the president to be reelected. we cannot have presidential trump get back into the white house. it will be dangerous for all of us. i'm concerned about all you think he hasn't. >> president biden hasn't addressed this latest strike in rafah that has really touched off a huge firestorm, both here in the united states and around the world. >> well, he should, he should have day one as soon as it happened. and always on the campaign trail, but that's no excuse. i mean, when you when you look on social media, we are us weapons are burning infant children alive and so he has to respond we cannot send another weapon or another dollar to israel and benjamin netanyahu at this point, because they have in moving forward what the icj has called a plausible genocide everyone sees it. my district sees it to country sees it, and we have to start that we need a permanent ceasefire. >> i want to show you what nikki haley, the former republican presidential candidate, would she wrote on such bombs as we've been discussing these bombs that presumptively would be used in rafah she signed finished them on the rocket what's your response to that? >> nikki haley is disgusting. she's a disgusting human being to do that. that's genocidal language. and it's the language that has the american people turning against our government. why do we continue to support not just the consistent attacks in gaza, but the forever war is there are people in our country, their entire lives, me include, it seems like we're constantly at war with someone spending trillions killing millions while people are suffering and starving and dayana, right? here in our country, that is gross, that is disgusting. and nikki haley should be ashamed of ourselves. >> the israeli national security council said that they expect that this war could go on. >> maybe another seven months does it seem to you that some people in israeli government maybe been benjamin netanyahu are waiting this out, wanting to wait until the american election happens to see if donald trump gets reelected. >> i know benjamin netanyahu, ben-gvir, and others. they want to wipe out the palestinians. they want them to either leave or leave, or they will kill them. i know that's what they want. and as horrible and horrific and evil to think that they will stay in this war, in this conflict through the end of the year to do what, how many people that hamas have you killed, and how have you killed the idea that hamas is built upon if we don't make overtures and do real work with policy and resources towards peace and a free palestine. there's gonna be another hamas being nurtured during this time. you can't kill them off, you can't kill the idea. we need a free palestine. so hamas then ceases to need to exist that's what we need i want to ask you about your reelection bid where this issue is a huge one, you are being targeted by aipac approach, israel group that they've said that they are going to spend millions in your district you do you think you're getting the support that you want from the democratic party? >> in this race yes so far, yes. >> and we're gonna get a lot more support going forward. aipac unfortunately has shown itself to be a racist organization and organization has supporting the genocide in gaza right now. and my opponent is partner with them, even though the majority of their donors maga, racist republicans, trying to take our voting rights, trying to take reproductive rights, gutting affirmative action and supporting fascism to ask you a congressman, i mean, there's, there's apac which your view of them is what it is. there's also j. that's a left-leaning jewish group. yeah, they rescinded there horsemen of you because of your statements after october 7 my question is putting aside aipac are you in part responsible for alienating your own constituents? many of whom are jewish. and we're very unhappy with how you responded to october well, my intention is not to alienate anyone. i have to route the way i govern in human rights and our collective humanity and my fight since i've been in office as to make sure we are keeping the people of israel safe. and we are fighting for palestinian state are so-called two-state solution and that's what j. is fighting for as well. and when i went to israel, when j. street, i learned about what was happening there on the ground in israel, in the west bank, as well as in gaza. and so what i learned was we're not making any real strives towards a two-state solution is what they said. >> they said when the rhetoric, the framing, and the approach go too far, that is where we going to hold our line. they're talking about your rhetoricians, jay, j street when they said that they were taking back their endorsement of you your rhetoric, framing, and approach. do you have any regrets about how you talked about this issue, especially in those early days right after the terror attack on october 7. >> well, we condemn the attacks on now it's told her seventh immediately and it wasn't shortly after october 7 that they and endorsed us a couple of months, i think afterwards, you know, i would like j. street to challenge aipac more and not be aipac light in congress so when you say they're left-leaning, i smiled because there are other organizations like if not now, jewish voices for peace and others that are truly left-leaning and truly fighting anti-semitism in a real way. and for free. >> here i mean, some of the things that they're referring to are your use before now, early on the term genocide, when you're talking about this conflict, they're talking about your doubting that sexual violence was committed by hamas. those are some of the examples of the things that people are speaking about when they question how we didn't hear enough for j. street. and it's supposed to you when had evidence of sexual violence, we condemned it. we voted to condemn it and we're we've been on the right side of that. and so for me, this is about accountability and this is about a pathway to peace and j3 wants to be a part of that. we can work together in the future to be a part of that. they made a decision now for whatever their reasons were, but in terms of my own accountability, it's about governing from the perspective of our collective humanity and human rights for all people. that's key. and people are going to disagree with that. unfortunately. >> all right. >> congressman jamaal bowman you so much. this it's always in the studio here and up next for us, another biden campaign surrogate with a dire fair warning about the potential of a second trump term. this time, it's the first lady, jon meacham will join me on that next in one of the most active tornado seasons ever. >> you can't control a tornado what kinds of interventions can we design? go inside the store premiere of wanted earth with liev schreiber. sunday at nine on cnn did you know taking xyz all at night, release allergies while you sleep? so you wake refreshed for more productive day get 24 hour continuous relief that does not fade. you wise old, take xyz off at nigh t nothing comes close to this place in the morning. >> i'm so 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echoing robert de niro in what seems to be a renewed campaign slogan for president biden the donald trump is a walking threat. can you imagine if we put any more republicans on the supreme court? no, no lose all of our rights. so we're talking about women's rights, gay rights. i mean, we will lose our routing right? yes. >> that's the tyrant he's telling us heal if trump returns to the white house, you can kiss these freedoms. goodbye that we all take for granted here with us to discuss this is historian john meacham, his new book, the call to serve, just hit bookshelves. >> donna, we will definitely get to that in just a second, but it's great to have you on the show. president biden when he was running in 2020, he didn't shy away from his warning about trump and democracy, but he had a kind of optimistic view of where the country was headed. now, this seems to be actually quite a a kind of catastrophic view from the first lady. do you think that there has been a shift here and a shift in the president's view about what trump means for this country i don't think there's going to shift and i think that what you see with the campaign which you see what the president, with what you played at the first lady is. >> they're calling them like they see them, and they're taking trump seriously. there taking the former president seriously and what he has said publicly, he would like to do in a second term. and i think one of the things that history tells us is that we don't do ourselves any favors by pretending a threat doesn't exist. if you don't confront something it tends to metastasize. and so i think what you have here is a very stark choice before the american people president biden's a friend of mine. i help him when i can i would disclose that but i'm not a democrat and i'm not a republican, voted for candidates of both parties. but i believe fundamentally that president biden represents a constitutional consensus where we use politics, not as total war but as a means of trying to reach consensus to solve problems. i think president trump, by his own, in his own words, is a much more radical figure as you just noted. >> i mean, you help president biden, right? many of his speeches we are hearing from people around him that he might speak once this trial of donald trump has concluded in new york, what would you advise him to say or not say about the conclusion of this trial once a verdict has been reached i think that's i haven't been part of any of those conversations. i'm not sure what i would say. i think the verdict obviously matters. it is an unprecedented event i think the president the incumbent president, has done a remarkably good job of letting the rule of law unfold, of letting these trials unfold, and we're facing this choice and there are a lot of folks who wish there were different choice but guess what? >> there's not this is what will come before the country and i think i would certainly tell the president that great presidencies are about consistent narratives. thereabout stories that move in a coherent way. i think the president ran not least because of charlottesville because he saw extremism moving from the fringes closer to the mainstream he has, i think we have all seen kind of lawlessness, an extremism led by president trump to put his own power above the constitutional processes i ended. >> i think that's that's that's controversial. and as you pointed out consistent with what he said before, john, i do want to get to hear new book. it's called the call to serve. it takes a look at the life of george h w bush during his centennial year. this is a presidency that often gets overlooked. it's one-term president what should we take away from the images in this book and from the challenges that he faced. >> yeah george hw bush is 100th birthday is coming up on june 12. there's gonna be a big event and college station is presidential library president bush seems remote but he's actually quite resonant. he's a figure who the day before yesterday, was someone who was driven by ambition, but once he was in power, he tended to put the country above himself. and that's a lesson that i think we can't hear enough that we can't contemplate enough it's a party. they're republican party of george herbert walker bush is to say it's an eclipse is kind of an insult to those things that are in eclipse it's just, it's just not a tangible thing anymore. the party of george w bush, as it there's this remarkable reaction that has unfolded. and i think that would president bush senior represents is this idea that you don't have to agree with someone on everything to have a coherent political life. >> yeah, very interesting at the book is called the call to serve right here from jon meacham, job great to have you here. thank you very much for joining us on the show thanks so much and x4, as justice on the diamond for black players as baseball goes, the distance russia is, we're trying to spy 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