Transcripts For MSNBCW The 20240702

coming up this hour, home free. the emotional homecoming as the first group of hostages released by hamas are united with loved ones. a second set of hostages is expected to be released any moment now. we will have a live report of what is happening in the region and whether this fragile truce between israel and hamas can continue to hold. shock and awful. congress prepares to return next week, and nearly reach revealed interview highlights the extreme and shocking views of knew how speaker, mike johnson. even comparing abortion to an american holocaust. we'll have more on that in his mar-a-lago meeting with donald trump. later, sounding the alarm. a call for conservative leaders to stand up for donald trump's assault on the constitution. judge michael bedyk joins me live to a new legal movement to counter the danger of a second trump presidency. all of that and more is coming up. any moment now we are expecting news of yet another release of hostages by hamas in exchange for a release of palestinian prisoners by israel. meanwhile, the people of gaza are experiencing some relief for. the first time and weeks palestinians flock to markets in gaza on the second day of the truce. but first break in the seek war between hamas and israel. yesterday, hamas released 24 hostages from the gaza strip. 13 israeli women and children ranging in age from today 85. ten-time nationals, one filipino. in exchange, israel released from its jails 39 palestinian prisoners, mostly women and teenage boys. meanwhile, more humanitarian aid has finally entered the region as part of the truce. more than 300 trucks are set to roll into gaza today including at least 130,000 tons of fuel. this humanitarian aid is desperately needed a supplies of food, water, and medicine have dwindled for civilians while the barrage of missiles made it too dangerous for aid workers to deliver those needed goods. joining me now live from tel aviv is nbc news correspondent, erin mclaughlin. erin, thank you for being here. what can you share with our viewers about the next group of hostages set to be released today, day two of the four-day cease-fire? >> reporter: katie, what the cease-fire appears to hold we are waiting for word of the release of more hostages and palestinians. although we have been told by white house officials that americans are not expected to be among the hostages released today. a diplomat with knowledge of this process telling nbc news that at least 13 israeli hostages are expected to be released. meanwhile, we are getting these heartwarming images of families reunited. we saw the image of nine-year-old ohana or munder running into his father's arms inside of an israeli hospital. we'll ohad and his mother were among the 13 israeli hostages released yesterday, along with his grandmother. two little girls, four and two years old also released. now reunited in a hospital with their father, yoni. it is these images that are so powerful to the families of the hostages that remain inside gaza. i spoke earlier today with a man who has family still inside of gaza. he was telling me that seeing these reunification's gives him hope. with each release there will be more and more of these hostages released meanwhile in gaza there is relief this morning. the largest aid convoy 61 trucks long full of essential supplies, food, and medicine crossed from egypt into the gaza strip. this, shortly after hamas complain that not enough aid was getting into gaza as part of this deal. the essential supplies that they needed by palestinians. each and every day of the cease-fire matters greatly to the people inside of gaza. the israeli military, of course, warning the palestinians not to try to return to their homes in the north because this war is not over and that the cease-fire is temporary. katie? >> nbc news correspondent, erin mclaughlin. thank you for being here, please stay safe. i appreciate you. joining me now former chief of staff at the cia and the department of defense, jeremy bash. jeremy, it is good to see you. obviously, the good news is day one of the cease-fire unrolled or an rambled without any major complications. 24 hostages released. any moment that we are expecting to see more hostages released. your take on whether or not this four-day cease-fire may actually be the beginning of the extension of more cease-fire days and a longer truce. >> i hope it can be the beginning of more hostage releases. after yesterday, there are still 90% of the hostages in captivity. more than 220 people are still away from their loved ones, including ten americans, katie. we cannot take our foot off the gas. until all of those hostages are brought home, this crisis will not be over. and it will demand the world's attention. with respect to the americans, you have four year old abigail. you have women, someone like hersh goldberg, previously wounded. we saw in that video his arm being blown off after he was attending the music festival. the american hostages, american citizens, must be reunited with their family. with respect to what happens after day for, i don't in the world wants us to take our foot off the gas in terms of an anti hamas campaign. if you support state solution, if you support political reconciliation between israelis and palestinians, you want hamas degraded. because hamas absolutely opposes any peace for israel and its neighbors. >> jeremy, i am stuck on the news that nbc has reported that hamas claims they can only account for a certain amount of hostages. there are other factions like palestinian islamic jihad who say that they have custody of somebody's captive hostages. how much more complicated does this deal become if that is the case? and the goal is to get every single hostage home safe and sound? >> honestly, katie, this sounds a little bit to me like hamas is trying to avoid responsibility. it doesn't defy the laws of physics to ask people who they are holding on to demand that information and to produce that information. also, to allow the international committee and the red cross to have access to those captives. cross toyou cover legal issues s show. i think it goes without saying that hostage taking, taking people hostage and not giving them access to the international red cross is the very center of the violation of the laws of war. it is the very definition of a war crime. so, is by the, way using a medical facility as a terrorist hub. that is also the definition of a war crime. hamas says that palestinian islamic jihad, and other offshoot groups, maybe holding these people. well, go find out where they are! if you are the government in gaza, which is what you are and what you ultimately seek to be, it is your responsibility to make sure that all americans, all people from the 30 nationalities. not just israelis, not just the jewish people, 30 nationalities and all religions, that they can be brought home safely. >> jeremy, a spokesperson for hamas said it is open for talks extending the truce and ultimately wants a cease-fire. but, quote, if you will have no right to decide who will control gaza after the war. we know benjamin and yahoo has expressed israel doesn't have an interest in iran gaza but they do want to make sure can security controls are in place. does this complicated two-state solution? does this complicate seeing a peaceful resolution to what's going on right now? >> a little historical context. between 1950 and 1967, egypt controlled the gaza strip. in 1978 in 1979, israel made peace with egypt, israel sought to return the gaza strip to egypt. in 2005 israel left the gaza strip completely. israelis do not have a political, national, or religious connection to the gaza strip. one thing that i do agree with is the statement that israel will not ultimately control gaza. this is going to be the responsibility for the arab world. it is gonna be responsibility for egypt, if aerials other arab neighbors including jordan, its golf era partners, to figure out what governance, what security looks like in gaza. if we just returned to a terrorist state on the border of an american, democratic, l.a.. one that can reign terror, kill civilians, take hostages, rape women, and kill children, that is not going to be acceptable to israel, to the world, or to the middle east and the united states. the arab world is really gonna have to step up and help put in place a permanent governing solution for the gaza strip. >> jeremy, i have to ask about the hypocrisy of having qatar be a part of these negotiations to get these deals done. seeing how the house a lot of the leaders of hamas. is this something that is a necessary part of negotiations? to make sure the region can secure some type of safe status? the fact that qatar is involved in these negotiations? >> look, i don't like seeing hamas leaders walk free in any capital, let alone in a capital like doha where we have an american military base. the united states does enjoy an important relationship with qatar. at this point, in this moment in time, i would rather have a country like qatar providing the mediation, providing that forum, so the u.s., israel, qataris and egyptians can talk to hamas. that is vitally important. qatar also played an important role in helping resettle people out of afghanistan. they have helped facilitate other difficult diplomacy for the united states. i think they're playing a constructive role here. i am with president biden. i applaud the emir of qatar for playing this role. i think we will need them for the weeks and months ahead. >> jeremy bash, as always, thank you for being here with your insight and analysis. i appreciate you. we are going to bring you the very latest with the second wave of hostages being expected to be released today when it happens. still to come on the katie phang show, my saturday morning power political panel as congress prepares to return to capitol hill next week. newly-surfaced audio from new republican house speaker, mike johnson, detailing his disturbing views on abortion and other issues. we've got a lot to cover this morning, don't go anywhere. re . with two times more menthol per drop, and powerful vicks vapors to vaporize sore throat pain. vicks vapocool drops. vaporize sore throat pain. please be a phone, please be a phone. is it a phone? oh, it smells like a cat nip toy from chewy. that's not a phone. get up to 50% off black friday deals at chewy. this is better than toilet paper get black friday deals that deliver excitement, at chewy. in order for small businesses to thrive, vic they need to bes. smart, efficient, savvy. making the most of every opportunity. that's why comcast business is introducing the small business bonus. for a limited time you can get up to a $1000 prepaid card with qualifying internet. yep, $1000. so switch to business internet from the company with the largest fastest reliable network and that powers more businesses than anyone else. learn how you can get $1000 back for your business today. with just a few days left comcast business. powering possibilities. until lawmakers return to capitol hill, this week we got a closer look at who newly minted house speaker, mike johnson, really is. on monday, johnson, who donald trump has dubbed manga mike, travel down to florida to kiss the ring of the twice impeached, quadruple indicted, ex president. it was johnson's first visit as speaker and came just days after he publicly endorsed trump for president 2024. also this week, cnn unearth audio of mike johnson highlighting his extreme views on abortion and human behavior in a radio interview just last year. >> it is truly an american holocaust. the reality is that planned parenthood and all of these big abortion, they set up their clinics and intercity. they are, you know, they regard these people as easy prey. we have to acknowledge collectively that man is inherently evil needs to be restrained. that, see that is a problem with radical left. they do not acknowledge a god. >> joining me now msnbc political analyst and former republican congressman, david jolly. and democratic strategist, nina smith. good morning to my political panel. david, i would love to start with you. what did these comments say to you about the extremism of speaker mike johnson? i'm going to say he is more far-right than kevin mccarthy ever was. >> he certainly is. half of the republicans have now alleviated a speaker who is a fundamentalist in evangelical. that is something that mike johnson wears other bad to honor. he wears on his sleeve. i think the interesting thing is how he is willing to inject into discourse around public policy. many in -- well, i shouldn't say many, actually, but a good number of people in the caucus would refer the more libertarian approach to supporting the evangelical movement. which is the way you create as much freedom in the country as possible and allow the church to be the church. that is mike johnson's philosophy. i think that this is also an important time for the nation to see that. this is the direction republicans want to go. it is adjacent to donald trump trying to take us back to 100 years through his white nationalist platform and a return to christian america. either view freedom of the opportunity to worship who you want and do the things you want or you view freedom of something that is biblical. mike johnson sees it as public. will the nation get surrender judgment on his view of the world. >> nina, we have a tamed version of the evangelical in mike pence. but he was a whole bunch of won plump with his attempts to become the next president of the united states. we also see that in support of abortion rights have seen some massive winds lately in red leading states. republicans are just completely tone-deaf when it comes to what the voting public really wants, right? >> absolutely. this is consistent on a number of different issues guns to voting rights, et cetera, that the republican conference is not in line with the american public. these views are extreme. they are completely out of step with the american people. as the former congressman just mentioned, they will have that opportunity to elect a new congress next year. just to rectify and change some of the direction of congress, currently. >> david, speaker johnson deciding to release thousands of hours of january 6th footage which, he says, i am paying back part of the deal for me becoming speaker. marjorie taylor greene, mtg, calling for new january six committee. a committee to investigate the committee. which is completely on brand for the gop. how likely is this actually happen though given the speaker's role in trying to overturn the 2020 election results? >> listen, mike johnson is now playing the kevin mccarthy game. his first big act was to work with democrats to keep the government open. what did he do to distract them pay back the hard right? he endorsed donald trump publicly. he went to visit donald trump. and now he is playing the january six conspiracy game. again, it is important for the nation to see that. look, mike johnson is somebody that world don't know much about. the last speaker we had like that was devin hester. i'm not crawling a comparison to criminality, but i'm saying there's a lot about mike johnson we will learn going forward. ultimately the important thing is the entire republican conference owns mike johnson. they elevated him, unanimously. chose him. he is not unique in the republican conference, he is a reflection of the republican conference. it is good that america gets to see that right now. >> nina, to david's point, the democrats should be celebrating the fact that republicans own whatever mike johnson ends up being. he is going through the vetting process in realtime as we speak. should democrats actually be capitalizing on the messaging that it sends out saying, look, this is the kind of person who ends up being the speaker of the house when you elect republicans. they end up having a voting majority in our congressional hallways. >> absolutely. as the former congressman mentioned, speaker johnson has shown his fealty to trump. what we can see here, clearly, is what american leadership will look like with republicans in charge. with speaker johnson leading congress. should the former president be reelected, it would look like this to have him in the white house. extreme views. you know? all sorts of discrimination against vulnerable people. a complete diversion from the issues that everyday americans care about. this is a situation that americans can see very clearly what the republican conference is going to do. their leadership in congress, what donald trump will clearly do should he be elected to the white house. >> david, i'm kind of stuck on this issue. there are whole bunch of people who have come forward, some of whom have written books, we their third in the administration or support of the trump or now saying, obviously, look what he has in store for a second trump presidency. look at what he's planning to do. he is being open and vittorio's about what his plans are. mike johnson, back in 2015, said the trump lacks the character and the moral center that we desperately need again in the white house. he is a hothead by nature. which is a dangerous trait to have in a commander-in-chief. when does the hypocrisy stop and actually have some accountability? when did actually have some consequence? >> when the nation takes responsibility for who our leader will be. this is a dangerous moment. donald trump is a dangerous person. whatever you think of those who were with him in the first administration who said, hey, i only stay because it would've been worse without me, i don't really buy. and i know some people do. none of those people will be around him and his second term. his second term is a retribution, shattering the norms of the constitution. this cannot be spoken of enough, or too much. half of the nation has suggested that they want donald trump back in office. that is a dangerous, dangerous, moment for the country. we need to recognize it as such. >> david jolly, nina smith, by saturday morning power political panel. thank you for being here, i appreciate you both. coming up next, inside the deal. a behind the scene looks at the diplomacy involved in putting together that successful hostage release deal between israel and hamas. plus, the big role that president biden played in convincing israel's prime minister, benjamin netanyahu, to get it done. keep it right here, you are watching msnbc. from alaska to alabama. but right now, people like you are losing their freedoms. some in power are suppressing voting rights. banning our kids books from libraries and attacking our right to make private health care decisions. we must act now to defend these freedoms and protect our democracy. and we can't do it without you. we are the american civil liberties union, and we're asking you to join us in protecting our democracy at the national level and in communities like yours. call or go online to myaclu.org to become a guardian of liberty today. your gift of just $19 a month. only $0.63 a day will help ensure that together we can continue to fight for the freedoms of all americans, no matter your zip code. if you also believe in the right to vote, the right to free speech, the right to learn, the right to bodily autonomy. please join us now. these are your fundamental rights that people are playing with. and so you need to get involved, because if you don't, then someone else is going to decide whether or not you get to choose what happens to your own body. so please call or go to myaclu.org and become an aclu guardian of liberty for just $19 a month. when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special we the people t-shirt and more to show you're part of a movement to protect the rights of all people. we can't make systemic change in the way that we want to doing it by ourselves. we have to work together because we the people, means all of us. from sea to shining sea. so please call or go online to myaclu.org to become a guardian of liberty today. ♪ we're building a better postal service. with easy, more affordable ways to ship. so you can deliver even more holiday joy. the united states postal service. delivering for america. this morning we are waiting for ok, someone just did laundry... no, i add downy light so the freshness really lasts. yeah, most scented stuff gives me a headache, but this is just right. and i don't like anything. but i like this. get a light scent that lasts with no heavy perfumes or dyes. ( ♪ ♪ ) a new round of hostage releases in the israel-hamas war. the breakthrough in negotiation which led to the first 24 hostages being held by hamas came after weeks of top secret talks betweens., israeli, qatari, and egyptian officials. according to reporting by msnbc news, israel's requirement that hamasovided and find information in proof of life of the hostages flowed negotiations. so did hamas's demand that more trucks carrying aid and fuel be allowed to enter gaza. joining me now for more live information from doha, qatar. nbc's chief international correspondent, keir simmons. here, it is always so good to see you. what more can you share with our viewers about the hostage negotiations and why things currently stand? >> reporter: these are tense hours, katie. after yesterday where the lead negotiation for the qataris told me it was an intense day. i think they are taking things day by day, hour by hour even. as an example, there has been those hopes that americans will be among the hostages released yesterday. it didn't turn out to be the case. every day, my understanding is, hamas is announcing, if you like, to the governments and to the qataris here and the israelis who they were released based on a list of people they have been given. civilian, women and children, that various countries including, of course, the israelis and the israelis want to see released. it is and every day process. the lead negotiator in qatar tells me that he is hopeful that americans will be among the 50 who will be released during these four days and that they will be able to find women, children, civilians even if they're being held by other groups. take a listen. >> reporter: the plan is, has been, for hamas to ascertain, we are told, where some of the hostages are as well as releasing the hostages they have immediately in their captivity. is there progress being made on that? >> so, again, the agreement has clearly mentioned each side to grimm in. to this moment i can assure you that the parties are doing their best to fulfill that commitment. this is only a seed toward a brighter path in this conflict. >> reporter: to give you an example, katie, of some of the hurdles that have been faced in the past 24 hours, hamas complaining today that not enough aid trucks were reaching the north of gaza. hours later, the international red crescent announcing that 61 trucks, the largest number it's ed, or now going in and were on their way to northern gaza. and there are a number of hurdles and challenges they face. clearly, as these things come up their being fixed, if you like, by the qataris, by the americans, in any of the parties involved, including the international committee of the red cross. it is clearly a diplomatic flare right now. a guitar plan just landed, untold, in israel with officials on board to negotiate and talk further about making sure that this all run smoothly. the qataris hope that, perhaps, there will be more days of pauses and somewhere down the line, a peace deal. the israelis are saying that that is not the case. they will return to fighting once this hold and negotiations are over. >> unbelievably difficult and delicate at this time. nbc news chief correspondent, here simmons, thank you for being here. i appreciate you. images of jubilation pouring in following the initial release of hostages following the four-day truce. israelis gathering at the hostage square outside of the art museum in tel aviv as the first group of israeli hostages safely returned after being held in gaza for weeks. palestinians celebrated in the streets of the west bank as 39 palestinian prisoners, 24 women and 15 children were released from jails on friday, as well. joining me now david rohde, and nbc senior editor who himself was taken hostage by the taliban in 2008 and managed to escape. dave, it is good to have you here. i want to get your reaction to the first release of those 24 hostages, which included 13 israelis yesterday, freed from gaza. what does this deal signify to you in terms of where we are in the progression of the war itself? f where we>> i think it is a pa. it is a joyous moment for these families. as a former hostage, i couldn't be haier for the captives themselves and theirfamilies but i think there are a longer term challenges ahead. one major issue is, as noted, there were the painstaking negotiations going on. throughout it, hamas said they have only control over 120 of the 240 people who are believed to be kidnapped. hamas is claiming that many civilians streamed into israel after hamas fighters broach the israeli border wall and that many civilians and border groups, potentially islamic jihad, crowd is really captives, as well. this entire situation is the responsibility of hamas. that is the challenge. what happens after these four days? what happens when hamas says we don't have all of these women and children to release? that is the real question as to how this gets extended. >> david, yesterday president biden made comments from nantucket saying that, quote, we need to renew our resolve to push to the two-state solution where israelis and palestinians can one day live side-by-side. in a two-state solution with equal measure of freedom and dignity. reporting has been clear that president biden played a key role in getting this negotiating deal done. pressuring netanyahu and others to make sure that the hostages could start to come home. the messaging that we are hearing from president biden, do you think that that is going to facilitate maybe finding a two-state solution somewhere down the road? >> the response so far, at least from prime minister netanyahu, is no. for long term, netanyahu has opposed to two-state solution. he is now in a unity government which includes the israeli opposition. prior to this he wasn't a government that consisted of simple far-right israeli parties and also opposed to two-state solution. this is a great question integrating your pointing out. this gets back to what is the long term solution here? there has been aggressive report from president biden towards israel, which has upset some democrats. yet, there is this looming golf between the biden administration and netanyahu in terms of two-state solution. netanyahu has also talked about keeping israeli forces in gaza. he has talked about permanent military buffer zones being established in gaza. the issue there is palestinians will see this as israel seizing more palestinian territory. many palestinians and people in the region see this whole effort as an attempt to push palestinians out of gaza and for israel to control that territory. >> it will have made it clear the, david, that it doesn't have an interest in occupying gaza. they want to make sure they have a security presence to be able to safeguard the interest and lies of israelis. let's be clear, that region is not just what is happening now between israel and hamas. you have lebanon in the north. you have the military interactions that are happening there. the concern that i have, it i think others have, if the cease-fire is one of several that may occur allows hamas, a known terrorist organization, to regroup and get aid from iran, for example. and then further complicates the regions dynamics. how much does a third party actor like a run play into what is happening right now? >> iran is a very destructive force. the reports that they help some of the hamas fighters trained for this attack. hamas exists largely because of iran, iranian funding in weaponry. you are exactly right. the issue is, in the long term, the stability of the region according to the biden administration involve some form of palestinian self government. the palestinian authority, which is a rival of hamas, has huge problems with corruption. at least the palestinian authority has renounced terrorism at this point. they are seen, in american eyes in the eyes of the administration as a possible partner. the palestinian authority who rules over the west bank lost the election back in 2006 to hamas. they have had no elections in gaza since then. simply put, or their palestinian partners? is there someone some party or force that would establish a two-state solution that would respect israel security? the palestinian authority say they are willing to do that but talks have been stalled now for many many years and again there has been opposition from the israeli right in from netanyahu to a two-state solution. >> david, and understanding that everyone's experiences can be unique especially the trauma of being held with a hostage out alina your personal experience just as a minute and ask you about what it's going to be like for the hostages that have been released. those who have been sent back to israel not all of whom were israelis and they had family members of a man and his wife who were taken hostage or believe tube until you nonstick by hamas in the last hour putting aside just how personal this is how much anguish these family members are going through, people themselves, like you, what is it like when they come back? you, what is it l>> it is puree beginning. it is just incredible. you feel terrible. you worry about your own survival. you also worry about your family. they are worried about you an incredible amount. they are delighted when you come home. but i do want to state that there are ten american citizens being held. we do not know if they're gonna come out today. we don't know if they're gonna come out in the next few days. it is a huge up of the biden administration. i began edan, an american citizen who turned four years old yesterday is one of the captives. i pray that she comes out in the days ahead. it is a joyous moment for the hostages. there is a position in the long term where you are so happy to be home but then it's like, what do you do with your life now? it is overwhelming. you make this transition, you get tremendous support from your family and friends and then you move on with your life. you do not want the kidnapping to define you. that is something that you didn't control so, they will come back. they will be overjoyed. they will struggle. potentially, for a period but they will recover from this. i'm praying for more and more of them to come home. >> as we all. or david rohde, as always, thank you for being here. we appreciated. we will continue to bring you the latest on the hostage release deal throughout the day here on msnbc. coming up on the show, after a quick break, it is small business saturday. why many consumers are holding off, yesterday, black friday and this coming monday, cyber monday, to do their holiday shopping. a huge difference you may make by shopping locally instead. you will want to miss this. keep it right here on msnbc. things at once. two things at once! ♪ two things at once. i'll have the... ...two things at once, please. now back to two things at once. ♪ two things at once. that's not two things at once. moooom! travis? ask about getting this season's covid-19 shot when getting your flu shot. only at vanguard you're more than just an investor you're an owner. that means your priorities are ours too. our retirement tools and advice can help you leave a legacy for the ones you love. that's the value of ownership. it is small business saturday. a day that solely focuses at shopping in small, independently owned retailers and restaurants. last year at this time the consumer spend an estimated 17.9 billion dollars. that is according to the 2022 small business saturday consumer insights survey commissioned by american express. in that same survey, 72% of shoppers strongly agreed the day we continue to shop in the local community throughout the holiday season. small business saturday was initially launched by american express in 2010 to support the 33 million independent businesses in the united states. in 2011, the day was co-sponsor by the co-sponsor administration after the senate passed a resolution officially recognizing it as a holiday. more than a decade later, the tradition of small business saturday continues. joining me now, isabelle guzman, administrator at the small business administration. it is so good to see you, isabelle. how does business saturday really benefit and impact local communities and the economy? >> great to see you too, katie. thank you for having me. small businesses are the backbone of the economy, as people say. that is because they create two thirds of new jobs. they employ nearly half the private workforce. they really define our neighborhoods, creating the products and services that we depend on every day. they hire locally and they really give back to the communities. their survival their resilience, is really critical for our economy. they also produce over 40% of our output. and they are innovators. as we look to the holiday season, which is such a critical time for american businesses, we want to make sure that small businesses get their share during small business saturday, shop locally. >> the biden administration deftly putting its money where its mouth. is this fiscal year the sba transforming its programs to nearly 50 billion dollars to further america small business bloom under this particular menstruation. how is the spca addressing this to systemic gaps in funding for underserved small businesses? >> i grew up in a small business family. i started my office pompous. now i'm leading this agency that focuses on the american dream of business ownership. we get to meet small business owners across the country. their challenges often time about getting the funding that they need. the affordable capital to grow their businesses, as well as, of course, knowing hadn't navigate challenges in the marketplace. to go after broader revenues. and the sba, under the biden harris administration, has expanded its network on the ground. we have over 1600 center supporting our small businesses with technical assistance and resources that they need. beyond that, the capital as you mentioned, we have put out over 50 billion dollars last year gaining small dollar loans, affordable capital to buy buildings, expand manufacturing into our local businesses. the biden harris administration has really been focused on investing in america. we want our small businesses from senator benefit from that, as well. >> on tuesday it was national entrepreneur's day. since president biden took office there haseen 14.1 million smalbusiness applications nationwide, including a number of black -owned brands and hispanic businesses. isabel, how can we find these new and small businesses today to shop it on small business saturday? >> it really has been a historic small business boom. 65% higher than any period in history. it is really an accomplishment. it shows confidence and optimism to see these types of entrepreneurial leaps here in the country. the small businesses that started up around the country visited with a new roofing company in cincinnati, a new ice cream company now in illinois. a new café down in new orleans. there are so many main street businesses as well as different brands and products being rolled out across the country. as well as our established businesses. getting out there, supporting your local businesses on main street, shopping small, dining small, as well as promoting them on social media. more and more our small media -- have adapted digital technology including e-commerce sites and making sure that you are supporting those businesses in all ways to get them promoted and resilient. >> the biden administration is doing its part. the rest of us need to do hours. on small business saturday, isabelle cacias guzman from the small business administration, thank you for being here. i appreciate. it >> my pleasure, katie. thank you for having me. >> i had, a call to action. former federal judge, michael luttig, on how the federal societies failing to stand up to relentless attacks to our democracy by a new organization of conservative lawyers needed to protect the rule of law against donald trump's unique brand of fascism. you are watching msnbc. for people who love their vehicles, there is only one name on their holiday list... weathertech... laser measured floorliners that fit perfectly in the front and rear... seat protector to guard against spills and messes... cargoliner, bumpstep, and no drill mudflaps to protect the exterior... and cupfone keeps phones secure and handy... 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[music playing] i'm orlando and i'm living with hiv. i don't have to worry about daily hiv pills because i switched to every-other-month cabenuva. for adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete long-acting hiv treatment you can get every other month. it's two injections from a healthcare provider. now when i have people over, hiv pills aren't on my mind. don't receive cabenuva if you're allergic to its ingredients, or if you're taking certain medicines, which may interact with cabenuva. serious side effects include allergic reactions, post-injection reactions, liver problems, and depression. if you have a rash and other allergic reaction symptoms, stop cabenuva and get medical help right away. tell your doctor if you have liver problems or mental health concerns, and if you are pregnant, breastfeeding, or considering pregnancy. some of the most common side effects include injection-site reactions, fever, and tiredness. if you switch to cabenuva, attend all treatment appointments. it feels good to just live in the moment. with every-other-month cabenuva, i'm good to go. ask your doctor about cabenuva today. as i said before the congress over a year and a half ago. the former president and his unanalyzed were, as of january 6th 2021, a clear and present danger to american democracy. >> former judge, jay michael luttig, has been ringing the alarm for a while about the fact that twice impeached, quadruple -- judge luttig ruled to lower crumpling that finds that trump engaged in an insurrection by inciting the riot at the capitol on january six, 2021. also found the constitutional impeachment of holding office after engaging in a rebellion did not apply to the office of the presidency. while taking place to borrow trump in the 2024 ballot. the danger of trump has banded together to form a legal scholar group, society for the legal -- in the op-ed to the new york times they write, quote, we need an organization of conservative lawyers committed to the foundational constitutional principles we want all agreed upon. the primacy of american democracy, the sanctity of the constitution, and there will evolve. joining me now former federal judge of the united states court of appeals of the fourth circuit judge jay michael luttig. judge, it is an honor to have you on the show. my guess my first question to you would be this. we do not just any conservative lawyers, we need all lawyers to pledge, to uphold, the united states constitution. in an article that you will work you wrote something that i found to be so startling. the growing crowd of grifters, frauds, and common who are willing to subvert the constitution and the long established -- the actions of these conservative republican lawyers are increasingly becoming the new normal for a group of lawyers sworn to uphold the constitution, this is an indictment of the nations legal profession. how do you get those conservative lawyers to stop doing comes dirty work? >> thank you for having me on with you this morning, katie. in recent weeks the former president has vehemently escalated his contemptuous, rhetorical, attacks on the institutions of law and democracy in our country. the purpose and the intent of these attacks is to de-legitimize these institutions in the eyes of the american people in anticipation of his campaign for the presidency as the republican nominee. also, to serve his own purposes, as he faces criminal crimes in multiple jurisdictions. the former president, unfortunately, has largely succeeded in doing largely that over the past two years. he has delegitimized in the eyes of the american people of the institutions of law and democracy. millions of americans today no longer believe in their democracy, their elections, and their institutions of democracy and law. today, we see the former president viciously attacking the federal courts. even the individual judges who will press side over his cases in an effort to de-legitimize the federal courts and the state courts, and the judges who hold office in the judiciary's. the prohibitively high cost to the nation at this point though is that over the past three years, if not longer, the former president has normalized his behavior and his delegitimizing and dehumanizing rhetoric into our political culture where it will stay forever. this is one of the reasons that my colleagues and i formed the new society for the rule of law. we believe that the legal profession is uniquely positioned and uniquely obligated to support and defend american democracy and the rule of law. this particular moment in our history, these are the causes of our times. >> judge luttig, the biggest bone that i have to pick is with the lawyers. the loyalist lawyers. i call them the enabler. they're the ones who legitimize the filings your main that you and i would look at and say, that doesn't pass any kind of constitutional legal muster. they are the ones who go to court in the stand in front and the members of the judicial in federal court and make arguments that are not in good faith. what obligation does the bar so ca shun, the state barr and federal barr, what obligations today have to police this type of conduct? today have ti humbly submit to , without these lawyers, someone like donald trump couldn't do have the stuff that he does. >> katie, the legal profession and the bar association, and other similarly situated, have the highest obligation in their histories, frankly, too police if you want to call it the, the legal profession. many americans throughout our history joke about lawyers. the legal profession is a noble profession. and as with any organization, certainly any profession, the nobility of that profession depends upon the individual members. here, individual lawyers around the country over the many years now have not represented the constitution and the rule of law in the way that we have formed the new society for the rule of law, believe that they should have. i am also a co-chair of the american bar association task force with former homeland security chief, jay johnson. that task force also is going to turn its attention to the legal profession and as it ought to do, and address these problems at the national level, as well. >> judge michael luttig, it is an honor to have you on the show. we have to have you back so we can talk about what is happening in colorado. section three in the 14th amendment. thank you for being here this morning. i appreciate it. >> thank you, katie. >> thanks to all of you for ining me this morning. i will be back here tomorrow where i will welcome former senator and attorney for alabama, doug jones. talking about a key ruling that dismayed part of the landmark 1965 voting rights act in light will likely stand up in front of the united states supreme court. you can follow us at the katie phang show on tiktok, instagram, and. next a tuned, more news coming up with charles coleman junior, who is in for ali velshi. good morning, charles. >> good morning my friend, how are you feeling, katie? >> i am good. i wanted to ask your thoughts on what judge luttig just said about the responsibility of some lawyers, you are not being lawyers, when it comes to donald trump? >> katie, i have been wondering but i don't want to make this hyperbole, is the long right now being you as a weapon? is it weaponized in a way that our profession should be concerned? or, is this a matter of, this is what the system is supposed to do. this is how the law is supposed to be used in conjunction with quality and legislation? i have been wrestling with this for a very long time. there are a lot of people who feel like, look, this is not how the laws would be used. there are some lawyer to argue that this is exactly what the law is supposed to do. how are you supposed to wield it? i'm curious to hear your thoughts. >> i think that there is a perversion of justice that is happening. as i told judge luttig, i blame the lawyers. i think shakespeare said that. the first things will do is something to

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