all in with chris hayes starts now. >> tonight, on all in. >> you look at what i'm trump is trying to do, you can't do it by himself. he has to have collaborators. the story of mike johnson is a story of a collaborator. >> i collaboration is happening in plain sight. >> we have to blur some of the faces of persons who participated in the events of that day because we don't want them to be retaliated against. and to be charged by the doj. >> tonight, speaker of the house announces plans to help january six rioters escape justice. then, martin gellman on trump's stated plans to use the power of the presidency to evade justice and punish enemies. plus, emergency meeting on florida to replace a republican party chairman of amid disturbing rape allegations. and how one senator's crusade against aircraft carrier poetry just came to a bizarre and. >> we are so woke in the min military. we've got people doing pawns on aircraft carriers over the land loudspeaker. >> when all in starts, right now. >> good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. the first notifications for jury duty have gone out. what is arguably the most important criminal trial in history of democracy. john allen goes hand to what looks like a form for prospective jurors in donald trump's federal election interference trial to begin march 4th of next year, just a few months from now. he has potential jurors of they will be able to attend, quote, five days a week for a period of approximately three months, starting on that date. and it tells them to prepare for more detailed series of questions, starting with february. the person to receive the summons told nbc news the document does not refer to trump by name, based on the days and the length of the trial, you can easily infer what is regarded. both sides in that trial are preparing with legal funds that give some indication the cases they will present, again, in this trial it's gonna happen in three months, according to one recent filing trump's lawyers are apparently going to try to confuse and hoodwink and misdirect the jury with all kinds of ludicrous and debunked conspiracy theories. they are seeking, for example, all documents regarding ray apps or any similar persons who encourage or participated in any new activities and generous ex. ray epps is a january 6th insurrectionists who is accused of being an undercover government agent. fox repeated that line so often me that epps, who pleaded guilty to insurrectionist charges, is now suing the network. bizarrely, the trump campaign is now seeking documents to jon nichols. yes, the longtime well-known liberal journalist from the nation, colleague and friend of mine for decades who, you may remember, from his many appearances on the show. i have to admit, this one was most even me and i do cover the stuff for a living and i read about it all day long, every day. apparently some january six conspiracy theorists believe that john, john nichols, who was in wisconsin on january 6th, not in d.c., appeared at the capitol in order to trick trump supporters into ransacking the place to make them look bad. they have a nickname for him and they think they've identified him on the scaffold. that is the caliber of argument you can expect from the trump legal team. false flag from jon nichols of the nation. bottom of the barrel conspiracy theory. prosecutors special counsel jack smith office said they want to make trump's previous lies about me -- the false claims about the 2012 in 2016 elections are admissible because they demonstrate the defendants common plan of falsely blaming fraud for election resulted as alike as well as his motive, intent, and plan to obstruct the certification of the 2020 election results and illegitimately retain power. the prosecutors also write, quote, the government plans to introduce evidence that trial showing that in the year since the january 6th attack on the capital, the defended his openly and proudly supported individuals who criminally participated in obstructing the count that day, including by suggesting that he will pardon them if reelected, even at as he has conceded that he had the ability to influence their actions during the attack. what's interesting here is that in many ways trump's planned legal arguments are the affirmation of the last point from jack smith. they are indisputably part of the years-long campaign by trump to defend an excuse a violent and criminal insurrectionists who stormed the capitol on january 6th. in this case by putting the blame on somebody else. now this idea that january 6th was a false flag started popping up almost immediately after the attack when people who are supporters of trump had to figure out how to defend an indefensible set of actions. the path of least resistance, ideologically, is to blame the whole thing on the left, to say it was really antifa or, i guess, jon nichols. in fact, just days after the insurrection, trump was already brimming left-wing monitoring protesters. he said antifa was really responsible for the attack, which kevin mccarthy about people responded, quote, it's not antifa, it's marga. i know. i was there. again, so ludicrous it's almost comical, but it's part of an actual real life authoritarian culture created to get permission structure to its followers so they can engage in political violence. it's not just trump. the most powerful republican country, the man who was second in line to the presidency they speak to tonight, speaker of the mike johnson, made a shocking announcement today about the release of raw footage from inside the capital on january 6th. >> house republicans trust the american people to draw their own conclusions. they should not be dictated by some narrative, so they can review the tapes themselves and we're going to have a methodical process of releasing them as quickly as you can. as you know we have to blur some of the faces of persons who participated in the events of that day because we don't want them to be retaliated against and to be charged by the doj and to have other, you know, concerns and problems. >> did you get all that? a lot to unpack. first, when he says republicans trust the american people to draw their own conclusions and not just be spoonfed a narrative about january 6th, he is quite explicitly feeding the conspiracy theories. the people that want this footage released by house republicans want it released because they want to find a hidden federal agents. so the intended audience understands the message loud and clear. but more unbelievable, is the open admission, in front of cameras, said out loud to the nation, that house republicans, the senior house republican, is actively running cover for a criminal insurrectionists. people who in full view of the public, with no expectation of privacy in the nation's capital, stormed said capitol, in some cases of police officers, an attempted a violent coup. but we can show their faces because the -- white really gives away the game is the subsequent halfhearted attempt to walk those comments back after a significant public outcry. johnson's spokes person, raj shah, who is a previously spokesperson at the trump white house, quote, faces are to be blurred from public viewing room footage to prevent all forms of retaliation against private citizens from any non governmental actors actors. to be clear, that is not what the speaker actually said. take a listen. >> as you know, we have to blur some of the faces of persons who participated in the events of that day, because we don't want them to be retaliated against and to be charged by the doj and to have other concerns and problems. >> and to be charged with the doj. snatches, get stitches. we can't have people finding and identifying insurrectionists. those are our people. we don't want them arrested. we don't them charge by the doj. we want them out free. ready to do whatever they need to do, again. all of this is in further and have the same objectives, to protect and excuse a violent mob that attacked the capitol and that is now the official position for mike johnson slips to your ears, the most powerful republican in washington and the republican party as a whole. the simultaneous ludicrous believe the january 6th was a false flag but also was good, that it happened, rioters need to be protected, because as liz cheney, former vice chair of the geniuses committee pointed out to nicole wallace today, and helps to protect the man to encourage them, good them, to storm the capitol in the first place. >> i think this is a situation where you have the republican party actively trying to ensure the people, trying to ensure to, whitewash what happened on the sixth, to collaborate with the former president. i think that's a really important point because the threat that he poses wouldn't be so significant if people heard on the right thing, had said no, it's not who we are. but instead there's obviously this embrace of him, this collaboration with the very damaging efforts he's undertaken. >> coming up on three years since the insurrection. in that time trump in his enablers have made their position about that a clear. the only question remaining is, will he be allowed to finish the job he started three years ago? tim albert is a staff writer at the atlantic, author of brand-new book, the kingdom, the power, in the glory, american evangelicals in an age of extremism. i'm a fugitive that available to the landeck. this is a publisher of the bulwark, and they both join me now. tim, let me start with you. you write incredibly compellingly and personally about the trajectory of american evangelical faith and politics. perhaps the latter catalyzing the former, in ways. here's mike johnson, product of the movement you grew up, in your fathers and evangelical pastor. my mommy shark bar was high, but him saying we're gonna blow the faces, that was shocking to me. how about you? >> one of these things, chris, we are sharking perhaps but not surprising. one of the things i try to explore in the book is this idea that for all of the externalized threats as many conservative even jellicoe's we'll see the culture coming for them, the government coming for them, the secular left coming for them, that there is an internal threat here as well. the internal threat specifically in this context is those christian conservatives who are not willing to rally around trump, not willing to, as liz cheney said, collaborate. so here is mike johnson who, one of his early knit missed litmus tests here in the eyes of many maga devotees, is are you willing to not only defend the president but are you willing to go on offense? >> collaborator formatively. >> obviously we know as a matter of fact that many of the house republicans and senate republicans in the two months between november 5th and january 6th, we know that most of them knew that the election wasn't stolen. we know that they went along with this to appease donald trump. but they told their voters at home one thing even while they knew the truth privately. this is another instance where the speaker is signaling to these folks, where is he and his folks internally, they recognize that this is an entirely different thing. >> sarah, you do a lot of work trying to republicans across the spectrum of conservatism. i hold out hope, and i think it's empirically grounded, that there still is a chunk of the republican party that finds this stuff offensive and creepy. like we're going to blur the faces so they don't get arrested. maybe i'm wrong, but what do you think when you hear that out of the voice of the number one most powerful republican in the government? >> i find it terrible. that was him trying to obstruct justice. >> yes. >> the republican party, the way that voters have internalized much of the january 6th staffed, there is a narrative narrative stage in the way that these arguments take place. you are getting in this before. they start with we didn't do it. it was antifa. and then they move to okay we did it but what about -- ? they're using the word about this. what about black lives matter? wiser to two justices from? and then we were move into the phase now was heck yeah we did it and it was good and we are the victims here. so now you're in this moment of victimization where they are being weaponized against in they're actually going to be seen as heroes. i think the mainstream republican position is more this was an unfortunate day. it's bad that it happened. but it wasn't trump's fault and the media has overblown this. i would say that's the broad position. but there is a, the narrative that they tried to stand, is the sort of stages we're right now they take umbrage. they are the victims in this situation. that's where mike johnson is. >> this is an important part of the theme of the book, and you see it here, the perpetual aggrieved, perpetually the victim. these folks stormed the capitol. they made affirmative decisions about how they wanted to conduct their lives. but we are always put upon. we're always being picked on. we are the victims. we are so persecuted. because of that everything that we do is justified. >> desperate times call for desperate members in the eyes of a lot of these folks. the prosecution complex. this is where a lot of folks don't understand if you have been marinating and language around persecution for generations, and really language around eventual cosmic clash of good versus evil and the good god fearing christians in this country against regardless secularists are gonna come for them, this is animating the thinking of those involved. when trump comes out and says christianity will have power if you like me, joe biden will hurt guard if you elect him, and i will be a retribution against the deep state, he's speaking directly to that prosecution complex in ways that are very difficult for folks outside of the tradition to appreciate understand. >> it's obviously resident. obviously your point about mike johnson's first litmus test. he didn't have to do any of that. sometimes politicians, sarah, you are put in a position, put in a spot, and it's, like which side are you on? you have to vote one way on this. you have to vote one way. johnson's affirmatively gonna release, affirmatively saying we're gonna blow the faces, we're gonna put in the labor to obstruct the investigation into the perpetrators here. that is putting his shoulder to the wheel. that's not him against a wall. >> three or four months ago we had never heard of the sky. notice. we do know that much about him but now that we do, it has become clear this is somebody who was trying to work with donald trump to overturn the election. this guy is a true believer in many different cases of the words, but he thinks the election was stolen. he was trying to defend donald struck trump. he believes the people who charge the capitol on january 6th, they are victims, he has to protect them. he is so internalized this idea that there is a deep state and a weaponized department of justice that he clearly forgot, when he was making those statements, and he has an obligation to the rule of law, an obligation to help law enforcement officials help prosecute people who have broken the law. he seems to have no sense of that whatsoever, only that partisan, that sort of deep partisan sense of i have to protect my own. >> that's really what it comes down to. that's what's so dangerous. sarah longwell, tim alberta, tim's book which is excellent, you can read an excerpt in the atlantic. it is out as of today. tim, thanks a lot. coming up, he already tried overthrow the u.s. government once. there's every reason to believe he's going to do it again, mostly because he tells us. the continued threat, next. ued threat, next >> chase. make more of what's yours. i have moderate to severe crohn's disease. now, there's skyrizi. ♪ things are looking up, i've got symptom relief. 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see the difference. meet the jennifers. each planning their future through the chase mobile app. hellooo new apartment. one bank for now. for later. for life. chase. make more of what's yours. first time i connected with kim, she told me that chase. her husband had passed. and that he took care of all of the internet connected devices in the home. i told her, “i'm here to take care of you.” connecting with kim... made me reconnect with my mom. it's very important to keep loved ones close. we know that creating memories with loved ones brings so much joy to your life. a family trip to the team usa training facility. i don't know how to thank you. >> just days before the last i'm here to thank you. presidential election, the atlantic released a piece written by martin gellman, who predicted with uncanny precedence the donald trump and exempt to subvert the results and overturn american democracy. even laid out the plot to convince mike pence that he had the unilateral power to announce his own reelection and a second term for trump on january six. at the time gellman's warning was not the sense consensus. but now as we approach what may be the repeat of 2020 there is a growing agreement and acute concern across the political spectrum about the explicitly authoritarians threat of a second trump term. former republican congresswoman liz cheney believes that trump will never leave office if he's elected again. new york times published this headline saying a second trump presidency may be more radical than his first. and third of another trump term is the theme of a special atlantic issue. and peace for that issue, barton gellman says if he makes back to the white house, quote, we know what trump would like to do with that power, because he said to outlaw allowed. he wants to scott's criminal charges now pending against him. he wants to re-deploy federal prosecutors against his enemies, beginning with president joe biden. important question is, how much of that agenda he can actually carry out in a second term. barton gellman, dapper staffer atlantic, joins me now. the top line point you make, that we've talked about in the show, we can't forget the fact that the man is literally running for this term. and we're easy to see it in the abstract, he 78 years old, but he could end up in prison. that's not an insane idea. what prison would look like with secret service and but like that's a real thing. he's really scared about. he it is motivating, i think more than anything, the run and desire for power. >> i think there are people who console themselves with the idea that maybe he will already be convicted in one of the cases obtained by the time the election comes around so they've got him. but that is not what's going to happen. even if he does get convicted, in the d.c. case, the only one that looks likely to run its course before the election, the case will be on appeal. >> yes. when >> when the time comes that it's inauguration day. if he wins, his justice department will move to withdraw the case on appeal. there's a legal maneuver called confession of error, and they go to the appeals court and say never mind, we don't think he should've been convicted. >> withdrawn. >> withdrawn. i would be surprised if he doesn't also try to pardon himself. the interesting thing about the pardon is, there's a legitimate debate among constitutional scholars about whether a president can pardon himself. like so many things about trump it sort of irrelevant because if he does pardon himself there is nobody withstanding to go to school to court and challenge that pardon except maybe the justice department, his own justice department. >> this speaks to a thing i keep coming back to in this discussion. the liz cheney line about he's not going to leave. it depends on what other people do. he doesn't have unilateral power. when liz cheney says he's not going to leave if he's elected again i thought, no, the secret service is going to escort him from the building on at noon on january 20th. you could say chris you're being naive, but at some level it's like i feel this battle within myself between warning of the greatness of the danger and not seeing the terrain of his power. does that make sense to you? >> that's right. we shouldn't exaggerate. there are things a president can do when things the president can't do. we don't know to what extent the guardrails will be holding. there is a career civil service. he wants to publicize it. there are courts. >> he wants to steamroll them all. >> there's senate confirmation. but, for example, it's not clear to me that even a republican senate would confirm jeffrey clark's attorney general. >> correct. >> not me either. >> they might not but what trump's people are doing is very clever. he can put in, and the vacancies reform act, he can put someone as attorney general for most of the year as an acting as long as they are in any senate confirmed position around the u.s. government. so if he comes into power in january of 2025, the people already serving in confirmed rules will be biden appointees. but there is more than 100 positions that are senate confirmed that are held by republicans right now. national labor relations board's -- >> statutory boards in positions. >> they must be party balanced. the trump people are looking at those names and trying to figure out what maga is they have got to work with. and they're there for 90 days. he can appoint anybody he likes. mike diverse, kash patel, as a counselor or a section chief in the justice department as long as they are gs 15 or higher in doj. he can then make them acting attorney general. and he can do that with all the other confirmed positions. >> we've got to say, they were very aggressive with -- which is the law that governs a lot of the stuff. constitution requirements for advising the senate. and you sprawling government, the vacancy format which is a pretty blue coral ball written piece of legislation. they were aggressive on it before. but the whole thing you're describing, in the end, what i see in the future is a very immediate constitutional crisis. >> yes well -- >> or people rollover. one of the two. i think the former is as likely as the latter. it's not like just -- he's gonna go very hard and be very aggressive and there are going to be some obstacles in his way. >> the threat is authoritarian government. the threat is lawless government. and people are going to have to stand up to that and resist. i think trump would for sure have more than one constitutional crisis, either you talk to legal experts and they're all full of thoughts about loopholes he could exploit or residual power or things that are profoundly against the norm but then the president could do, if you wanted to go completely off the deep band, but what they don't think about the stuff that's just flat out unlawful. by allegedly president jackson once said that just as marshall has made his decision now let him enforce it. apparently he literally say that but he kind of man that. it's not clear to be who enforces a ruling by the supreme court if trump says i am not doing that. trump has said that any law or regulation or article of the constitution can be terminated under the right circumstances, the right circumstances being his fictions about the election. he said he can terminate it and it's not clear who could stop him. >> barton gellman, that piece is in a special issue of the atlantic. sober reading. still ahead, disturbing new details about the late accusation against the chair of the former republican party is his own deputy calls an emergency meeting to remove him. what we know and where things stand, next. thing stand, next. stand, next. >> no other complete hiv pill uses fewer medicines to help keep you undetectable than dovato. detect this: most hiv pills contain 3 or 4 medicines. dovato is as effective with just 2. if you have hepatitis b, don't stop dovato without talking to 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from liberty and helped draft the original version of the don't say gay bill that governor ron desantis signed into law in 1922. he is joined the chorus of floridians demanding christian ziegler stepped down amid an ongoing investigation. at the center of the allegations are that on october 2nd, christian and his wife brigitte planned to have a consensual sexual encounter with a woman they had known for 20 years. as detailed in the search warrant affidavit first obtained at the florida center for government accountability, the woman told police that christian ziegler chauvin showed up at her prior apartment alone and proceeded to rape her. ziegler has denied wrongdoing and has not been charged with a crime. he sent emails to supporters over the weekend saying we have a country to save and i'm not gonna allow false allegations to put that mission on a bench. his vice chair of the state party has called the emergency meeting of the republican party of florida scheduled to december 17th to force ziegler to step down. this is politics reporter for the miami how. harrelson covering the story closely and she joins me now. can we first track how this story first came out and what we have learned about what is being alleged? >> yes. this is a very developing story, it broke a few days ago, right around the time that governor ron desantis was debating california governor gavin newsom on live tv, on fox news. when all of this happened it was pretty much a month old accusation that was raised against christian ziegler and since then we have found out more details because there has been the release of an affidavit that we have seen where there are details of how close a relationship was with this woman, between not just christians the clear but his wife, brigitte, who has been pretty active in political circles, especially conservative circles here in florida and across the country, with her influence in the parental rights movement. and so we have been seeing this develop, drips by drips of information, in the last few days. and now we are seeing a chorus of pretty much every single major republican in florida calling for his resignation, and it appears there might be gearing up for a meeting in december 17th, where that could potentially happen and be a showdown. >> just to reestablish the facts here again. he has denied that this happened, but allegations that could mean a lot of things. in this case the police were called for a wellness check to the alleged victim here. and their subsequent police affidavits that report in detail that she alleges that he sexually assaulted her. there are subsequent, if i'm not mistaken, messages between the two in which she says i don't like what you did to me, i'm upset, i can't go to work. there was an interview with the wife. detectives interviewed brigitte ziegler again, this is the moms for liberty leader, and that it only happened one time she confirmed having a sexual encounter with the victim and christian over a year ago. also interviewed in the affidavit, christian ziegler, with his attorney president, he said he had conceptual sent sex with the victim, took a video of the counter, it said he initially deleted it. something happened here. there's a lot of established other than a person said i think happened. just to be clear about this. it seems like that's provoking the cascade of calls for him to resign. >> right. these are very serious allegations. when you raise those details, those are details that were outlined in official documents. this is not someone who went to the media and is making these accusations. it's someone who has reported to authorities and it was an incredible threat, enough that there was this affidavit filed with the court. and now we are really seeing the demand for taking these accusations seriously. it has been interesting to see this develop, because christians ziegler in particular has someone who has a really espoused abilities of never apologizing when it comes to your political foes and he has really adopted that at the beginning. but now you are starting to see the tables turn a little bit on whether this accusation should be taken more seriously and whether it's too much of a distraction for him to be able to continue leading the party. >> this has to be one of the most connected influential conservative couples in the state of florida. she's the cofounder of moms for liberty. i imagine it sent shock waves through the upper echelons of the entire state party at this point. >> absolutely. there's an upcoming election next year. it's just months away. republicans are coming off fresh from a pretty big victory in november, 2022. they want to keep the momentum going. those two famous floridians on the ballot for the presidential election next year, the most famous florida resident, former president donald trump and the governor, ron desantis. so there's a lot of pressure going on in maintaining the at least civility of the party. so this is definitely garnering the attention of every single republican in every pocket of the state, including even school board politics when it comes to the involvement of his wife, brigitte. >> all right, ana ceballos thank you so much for spending sharing time with us. still coming, alabama senator tommy tuberville -- why now? insight into why it happened to begin with. next. begin with next >> ok, i lied. noooo! aaaah! 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thanks, senator tuberville. tuberville says he finally relented in the face of a. democratic plan to temporarily go around the chambers rules to allow confirmation of almost all military nominees as a block, and he was probably going to lose on that. this afternoon, just hours after tuberville dropped the hold, -- >> the question is, on the nominations unblock, all in jim per se i. oppose, no. the ayes appear to have it. the ayes have it. the nominations are confirmed on block. >> friday 35 that delayed promotions unanimously approved in a matter of seconds. in a statement, president biden weighed in on the senseless destruction tuberville caused saying in part, quote, in the end, this was all pointless. senator tuberville and republicans who stood with him needlessly hurt hundreds of service members and military families, and threatened our national security, all the bush apart is an agenda. i hope no one forgets what he did. it certainly has been imagining episode as well as a revealing one. the tuberville blockade demonstrated the republican party is so committed to banning reproductive rights, they're willing to let one senator take a hammer to the entire upper echelon of the nation's defense personnel. now, as tuberville himself noted, he is still holding on to the most high-level nominations of about a dozen four star generals, which is a little odd. why would he not give in on those when it seems clear that he lost to the original argument? former republican congresswoman liz cheney floated a theory that it could be all about the, vostochny trump. >> tommy tuberville holding nominations for the most senior physicians at the pentagon, why is tommy tuberville doing that? it's causing great damage to this nation's military readiness. is he holding those positions open so that donald trump can fill them? what is he doing? it's certainly not serving the purposes of the united states of america. >> tommy tuberville's scheme is not a -- people on all sides to put the pressure on tuberville to get to this point, successively, as maddening as it was, shouldn't let up until he is fully defeated. tes postal service. delivering for america. meet the traveling trio. the thrill seeker. the soul searcher. and - ahoy! it's the explorer! each helping to protect their money with chase. woah, a lost card isn't keeping this thrill seeker down. lost her card, not the vibe. the soul searcher, is finding his identity, and helping to protect it. hey! oh yeah, the explorer! she's looking to dive deeper... all while chase looks out for her. because these friends have chase. alerts that help check. tools that help protect. one bank that puts you in control. chase. make more of what's yours. why are we the only birds heading this way? chase. ♪ ♪ what is that? duck à l'orange. what's duck à l'orange? it's you, with l'orange on top. in the seven-day truce in the war between israel and hamas, 105 israeli hostages, 240 palestinian detainees where released, and there was enormous increase in the amount of aid that was allowed into gaza during that time. joyce ended nearly five days ago. since then, the israeli military encouraging into gaza has intensified. back in october, the start of this war, israeli forces told people in gaza who were in the north to move from the north through the south, hundreds of thousands of people followed that order. about 1.9 people, over 80% of the population, have been displaced since the war began. many ended up sheltering in the south. now, israel is expanding its military efforts in southern gaza, including the largest city, leaving entire populations and gaza with, basically, nowhere to go. this is raising enormous alarms about what the toll on civilians will be in this stage of the war. 16,000 people have already been killed, according to gaza health officials, since the war began in october. but jeremy konyndyk is the president of refugees international. he previously served in the united states agency of international development under both president biden and president obama, and worked at the covid-19 response as well. he joins me now. good to have you here. >> thanks. >> i want to read to you's statement. you fight to refugees worldwide, obviously, the populations in both west bank and gaza are refugees in an international, legal sense. they are not internally displaced in gaza. the renewed fighting takes place in the midst of a rapidly spiraling humanitarian catastrophe. there is growing likelihood of large-scale secondary mortality among displaced palestinian, spacex or forces have been destroyed, access to food and water withheld, the spread of diseases worsening. what is the sort of most pressing concern from your perspective? >> we are seeing a pattern here that is very familiar to humanitarian experts. the u.n. monetary in court meter has warned that a much more hellish scenario was about to unfold, a public health emergency layered on top of the damage we are seeing so far. the pattern we see is a few things. 80% displacement of the population, as you said earlier. huge cuts in food availability. only 10% of the food required to sustain the population has been getting in since the war started to. food prices are going up. wfp is warning now the area is on the brink of [inaudible] we're starting to see a spread of waterborne disease. that is a cocktail very familiar to humanitarians, it's what proceeds the scale of mortality in famine or humanitarian crisis. >> i want to be clear, quote the world food programme, saying eight weeks of the war is a high risk of famine for all the people of gaza, especially for those with chronic diseases, older persons, children, and those living disabilities. but the very high casualty toll, we think, again, according to statistics we have, which comes from the gaza health ministry, as many as 6000 children, possibly more, the vast majority, to my understanding, are from direct result of israeli airstrikes, bombardment, and mortars, right? you are saying there is now a real possibility of this secondary mortality. >> right. what -- you look at something like the famine in somalia in 2011 that killed people, those weren't killed in fighting. they were killed because they died from the famine, and that's what one -- >> precipitated by fighting. >> precipitated by fighting, but in that case by a drought. a shortage of food. here, the shortage of food is man-made because it is mostly imported into gaza, and that's been largely cut off since the war started. >> the israeli defense forces, the israeli army has put out these maps. they almost look like -- i don't know if we have one here, but they almost look like census trump maps. they are very finally -- they have numbers. there's a place they tell folks in gaza to go, i think, online, if i'm not mistaken, to find out what the direction is of where in this map to go. the israeli government says we are going through tremendous pains to make these very fine distinctions about what is safe, what is not, so as to avoid civilian harm. what do you think of that? >> it's not a serious dumped to avoid civilian harm. it reads more like an attempt to defer the blame for civilian harm on to the civilians rather than the idf. it looks like the worst records i've seen in my life. it's not a practical way to protect civilians. every day, they are ordering new neighborhoods cleared out, hundreds of thousands of new people to move, and pushing them further and further south into areas that are already badly overcrowded. it really does look like what the idf is trying to do is excuse then turning these areas into some version of a free fire zone, and in the way that some israeli officials are talking about it, that is how it sounds. you hear them when they're challenged, like mark was challenged by jake tapper the other day. their defense is, well, those people shouldn't have been where they are because we told them to move. that is not how international law works. the way it works, he still have to protect civilians even if they -- got >> you worked in the biden administration, in the obama administration. this administration has been very stalwart in support of israel's war efforts here, support for the netanyahu government, the coalition unity government. as someone who personally worked in this administration, what do you think about that? >> i think they are in a very hard spot, and it is partly a very hard sport of their own creation. they're very sincere in wanting to protect civilians in gaza. i think they are not yet ready to recognize, and to make some of the policy trade-offs that would entail. they want to have two things simultaneously, they want to support the israeli military offensive, and continue to arm it, equip it, and give it diplomatic backing. at the same time, they want, and they have said, how israel does that matters. israel needs to do that in a way that is in line with international law. when senior administration officials are asked, well, is this in line with international law? they tied themselves in knots, not answering that question. >> what would you say to that? >> i would say, to all appearances, it is not. >> jeremy konyndyk of refugees international. thank you for making time for us tonight. appreciate it. that is all in on this tuesday night. alex wagner tonight starts right now. good evening, alex. >> thank you, my friend. always a great show. thanks to you at home for joining me this hour. i want to start off tonight with something out of playboy ma