>> we pledge to you that we will wow the communists, marxists, fascists and the radical left dogs that live like vermin within the confines of our country. data from outside forces is far less sinister, dangerous and grave than the threat from within. >> calling your political opponents vermin and the threat from within, we've heard that before. in mein kampf, adolf hitler referred to jews as vermin, worthy of eradication, and benito miscellany would've referred to his opponents as parasites and reptiles. so, donald trump is following in some appalling and tories footsteps of the most violent, dangerous man of the 20th century, or at least some of them. trump did not end there. here he was in the same stump speech, talking about the home invasion and the brutal attack on speaker nancy pelosi's has been, and attack carried out by a right-wing extremists. >> nancy pelosi, who is a crazed lunatic. [applause] she's a lunatic. she is a crazed lunatic, what the hell was going on with her husband, let's not answer. let's not ask. i'll withdraw that statement. by the way, she's got a wall around her house. obviously, in that case, it did not work very well. >> nancy pelosi is a crazed women attack, that kind of glorification of violence, that call to abandon empathy, to stop seeing our shared humanity, that is no longer just donald trump. that rhetoric and behavior has evaded trump's entire party. here was trump's closest rival for the republican nomination, governor ron desantis, in a radio interview today, mocking former governor nikki haley for expressing grief over the killing of george floyd in 2020. >> you know, i remember when the george floyd writes for happening. i called out the national guard. i said i am standing with police. he was tweeting that it needed to be personal and painful for every single person, and i think myself, why did that need to be personal and painful for you or me? we had nothing to do with it. it just shows an example of her adopting this left-wing mindset and accepting the narrative. we need leaders who are going to fight the narrative. >> now, the narrative, to be clear here, according to a jury's verdict, is that george floyd was brutally murdered, as garza back the officer who pressed his knee into floyd's neck for nine minutes, as the onlookers begged for him to stop. but according to governor desantis, any pain, any perceived pain for the public murder of an innocent american means that you are somehow capitulating to the left wing and it's agenda. this is trump's effect on the republican party, a parties were shipped of white male machismo appears to be turning into something brutal and cruel, where violence is not just an accepted outcome in american life but a necessary outcome. nowhere was that more on display than in the halls of congress today. for months now, republican senator markwayne mullin has been in a feud with the head of the teamsters union, because the unions president as referred to senator mullin as a greedy ceo. today, the head of that union, shawn o'brien, testify before the senate health and labor committee, where senator mullin revisited sean o'brien's invitation to settle their dispute anyplace, anytime, coupled. >> sir, this is a time and place, where you can run your mouth, we could be two adults and finish it. here >> that's fine, perfect. >> want to do it? now >> i'd love to do it now. >> stand your butt up then. >> stand your butt up. >> stop it. >> no, no, sit down. you are a united states senator, sit down. >> you are a united states senator, sit down. the wheels are coming off here, a chain reaction started by donald trump now has republicans not just ready to bra with democrats but to brawl with each other. just a few hours ago, republicans under the leadership of the speaker mike johnson could not agree on a way to fund the government, so they had to do it now what they always have to do in the congress, which is to rely on democrats. with 209 democrats and 127 republican votes, the house managed to pass a resolution to funding government for a few more months after weeks of infighting among republicans. if you are a republican right now, this is all completely embarrassing. the party ousted its last speaker for relying on democratic votes to get something done then held the government hostage while trying to figure out, who could possibly lead the republican conference, finally electing a hard liner, who once again had to rely on democratic votes to get the thing done. >> if that all was not just shameful enough for the gop, the last republican house speaker, kevin mccarthy, is reportedly lashing out at the members who cost him that drop in the first place, and when i say lashing, i mean that literally. the day, npr reporter claudio solace was a different republican congressman tim burchett, when the congressman claimed former speaker at the house kevin mccarthy intentionally about him in the kidney. here is the audio from that incident captured by npr. >> why did you a bomey in the back, kevin? hey kevin, you got any guts? jerk. >> has he done that before? >> no. >> that's a new move. >> i'm gonna go talk to him. >> hey kevin, why do walkable me in the back? you've got no guts. you did so. they sat there and the reporter said it right there. it will kind of check movies that? >> i did. not >> your pathetic, man. >> kevin mccarthy later denied that he had hit congressman burchett, with the another display of embarrassing machismo. >> show me a reporter who saw that. >> he said he was in pain. >> oh, come on now. >> joining me now is npr's chief congressional correspondent, claudio gore salas, who was the reporter talking to congressman burchett at the time of that incident. claudia, first, just tell me from your perspective, what happened? did you see kevin mccarthy actually run up on the congressman, as you are interviewing him? >> great to be with you, alex, i was focuses on burchett. he was coming up his hallway, a distance from the meeting room where republicans were meeting, and he had just come over to my side of the hallway, we were speaking, so i was fully focused on him. he maybe set one sense to me before he lunged towards me. we are about two feet apart. i would say that he came about a foot towards me, and it was such a shock, i remember burchett yelling out to mccarthy initially joking, saying, hey, kevin, did you mean to elbow? and then he switched and said, why did you above me in the back, kevin? i start to look at that point, i realize that it's mccarthy and it's detail, they have walked by. and usually, i had thought it was a joke, maybe a joking shove of some kind. but from what it looked like from my perspective, mccarthy had shoved into burchett and appeared to be an elbow, as perchick claimed. >> you know, you think about the incident that you captured, both in audio and on social media, and we're not talking about it, with a quote from former congressman, republican adam kinzinger, who in his book, writes about once i was standing in the aisle that runs on the floor to the park at the chamber. as mccarthy passed, with a security man and some of his boys, mccarthy veered toward me, hit me with a shoulder and then kept going. is body checking fellow republicans run afoul of him, like a thing for speaker mccarthy? i know you're a congressional reporter, claudia, how much the something that he does? you have you heard about this before? >> not before today. it is -- it has been a concern for me in terms of how high tensions have been running, especially with that in the house republican conference, especially since mccarthy was lost it. i have been worried about physical alteration between members. i wrote a piece last week about members and the public infighting, but i was worried that it would build up to a moment. it was surreal that happened to play out right in front of my eyes today. but in terms of mccarthy's history here, no, i was not familiar with it. i heard about kissinger's experience just today from his book. and it's quite shocking to hear both, to hear that case and see what i saw today. >> any talk a little bit more about the sort of tenor, the temperature, actually, inside the republican conference? we're seeing, you know, the explosions of anger in the senate and house, the front runner for the republican nomination makes anger part of his brand. what has been effective in all of that in terms of the legislative body? how does a feeling congressman? >> i think we're seeing a play out. this is a perfect storm. it has been building all year. how speaker mike johnson spoke to him earlier today, before i had shared what i had seen, and he's talking about this pressure cooker in the house, and something that we had been wondering about, especially since october, when mccarthy was speaker, he canceled two weeks of recess. and the work, the struggles, the tensions, the fighting that we saw in the house republican conference go through in october, i just exacerbated a lot of sore feelings that were there earlier, from earlier in the year, they played out. now, republicans were worried about the threats from fellow republican constituents. so, it is very worrisome. in some ways, it is not surprising to see this play out now, but in others, it's very shocking. >> claudia grisales, may i suggest elbow pads, shoulder pads, whatever you need to keep doing your job with this essential reporting. claudia grisales from npr, thank you for your time tonight. >> thank you. >> joining me now is jamelle bouie, new york times opinion columnist. his latest piece of today is titled trump wants to know that he will stop at nothing in 2025. jamele, thank you for joining me. i can think of no better person to help sort of break down what exactly has happened to the grand old party here under the tutelage, if you will, of donald trump. first of all, what did you make of the fireworks, i guess, is the most euphemistic term that we saw in congress today, in the context at the age of trump? >> on one hand, you can attribute some of the aggression, maybe to trump. you can attribute the real anger and the stain that appears to be the republican conference. on the other hand, i remember 2010, 2012 cycle with the tea party and everything, i remember the sort of -- set to those members were up a polak and aggressive, and so forth. i think the difference between now and then right is that now, there are no, no really moderating in the conference. not to say that there were some prior, but there are none now. there is nothing to bring the temperature down, and you have a new crop of members who don't seem to be interested in governing whatsoever. so, all of that together means you have the kind of situation where you're going to have the fireworks that we saw today. >> i do wonder, totally agree with you that there is no moderating influence, but it seems like it's a step beyond the when you talk about 2010, and of course, joe wilson says you lied to president obama. a purse has been the gop thing, but this almost -- we seem to be in a moment where violence and anger and outbursts are incentivize. i'll go back to the piece he wrote today in the new york times. >> it's not there an acceleration or hyperbole to say, it looks like an awful lot like trump's planned could have been reelected. it looks awful like a supplants meant to give the former president the power and unchecked authority of a strongman. i feel like having a sort of idol who is a strongman or wants to be even more of an unchecked strongmen, almost gives license and encourages footsoldiers to be their own miniature happy meal version of strongmen. >> one thing you see, throughout the republican party is the rejection at the idea of persuasion, rejection of doing any kind of way of attempt to speak to someone who disagrees with you on an equal basis and try to bring them to your side. within the republican party, i think we're focusing on that right now, where it's not just a rejection of anything like dialogue or persuasion with democrats, but even amongst republicans, no attempt to do anything to reach out for people to persuade people. but more broadly, the republican party nationally, there's trump, obviously, the entire notion of trying to seize power is in some sense of rejection at the idea that you're doing the work of democratic life. there are state legislatures who create these intense gerrymanders and try to overturn and nullify the actions. again, this idea that there is no democracy to do anymore. we're just going to dominate over everyone around. does this really does seem to be the dominating ethos of so much of the republican party, and it's hard to know what to do about it, about this observant, and hope that it burns itself out. >> i will also say to the point of, like there is no working across the aisle, no democracy worth preserving. the recent that republicans are not shutting down the government, because democrats dug up and save their butts. like, the irony here, as trump vilifies the fascist left, the fastest left is actually saving your butts in congress. with asking nothing than a functioning government. i gotta ask you, jamele, this is so indicative of where the republican party's head is at today. this is senator markwayne mullin, again, senator markwayne mullin on newsmax today, sort of making a historical reference as to why it's totally fine to come to blows in the u.s. senate. let us take a listen. >> could you guys go barnacle if you want to do? >> you know the rules, and he smelled the cane. you can remember president henry jackson challenged nine guys to a dual, and won nine times. and a guy one-time, jackson jumped up, ran across the table and knock the guy out. so, at the end of the day, there is precedence for, if that is something with someone wants to do. >> just a word on precedents, andrew jackson, if republicans are taking their cues from the presidency of andrew jackson, houston, we have a problem. secondly, they got he was skating, i believe was abolitionists charles sumner. talk about two chapters of american history that are probably not where you want to be drawing your marching orders from, jamele? >> yeah, i don't know if i would want to -- i don't know if i'd want to compare myself to president brooks canning of charles sumner. it really was this major event in the history of congress, really galvanized a lot of forces. this glorification, this willingness to speak privately, to act properly, again, it speaks to this -- not just immaturity or aggression or rejection of the base and premise of democratic life, which is that we're going to talk to each other. persuade each other, an attempt to engage each other as equals. saying, i would burn out in congress. in a statement, indicating of seven or, there was a statement. i don't feel any obligations, and that is just not. you can't run a legislative society like that. >> yes, i think that is the takeaway, it's not just congress. you cannot run a society like that. jamelle bouie, thank you, my friend, for your rhythm and thought. i appreciate it. >> thank you. >> we have a lot to get to this evening, including president biden, who is strong a serious contrast with his predecessor, donald trump, on making the most important, the most urgent issue of our lifetimes. plus, the leaked tapes of jenna ellis and sidney powell telling georgia prosecutors what they knew about the conspiracy case and what trump knew, that is next. hat is next (pensive music) (footsteps crunching) (pensive music) (birds tweeting) (pensive music) (broom sweeping) - [narrator] one in five children worldwide are faced with the reality of living without food. no family dinners, no special treats, no full bellies. all around the world, parents are struggling to feed their children. toddlers are suffering from acute malnutrition, which stunts their growth. kids are forced to drop out of school so they can help support their families. covid, conflict, inflation and climate have ignited the worst famine in our lifetime. and we're fed up. fed up with the fact that hunger robs children of their childhood. fed up with the lack of progress. fed up with the injustice. help us brighten the lives of children all over the world by visiting getfedupnow.org. for as little as $10 a month, you can join save the children as we support children and families in desperate need of our help. now is the time to get fed up and give back. when you join the cause, your $10 monthly donation can help communities in need of life-saving treatments and nutrients, prevent children from dropping out of school. support our work with communities and governments to help children go from short-term surviving to long-term thriving. and now thanks to special government grants, every dollar you give before december 31st can multiply up to 10 times the impact. that means more food, water, medicine and help for kids around the world. you'll also receive a free tote bag to share your support for children in need. childhood without food is unimaginable. get fed up. call us now or visit getfedupnow.org today. meet the jennifers. jen x. jen y. and jen z. each planning their future through the chase mobile app. jen x is planning a summer in portugal with some help from j.p. morgan wealth plan. let's go whiskers. jen y is working with a banker to budget for her birthday. you only turn 30 once. and jen z? 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>> the fact that you know to ask if it is hearsay shows -- >> i should get a lot degree. >> first of all, i would say, yes, this is a damaging testimony if it comes in, why? because it shows that it was a plan, not that he really believed that he won the election but rather this was the plan. i think her testimony in one a day questions was, why listened to you over some other lawyers? well, because we are telling them what they wanted to hear. >> that was sidney powell this at the. >> yes, yes. >> that would negate a sort of defense of -- >> advice of counsel. >> exactly, and sticking your head and the sand, but you can't do, all of that. slept stunted flee, this is bad for trump, 100%. but the fact that it is out is a very bad, i think, for the prosecution. >> can you talk more about the. obviously, fani willis is not happy about this. she wants a protective order, file for an emergency protective order on top of the protective order that she asked a judge for. a decision i believe will be made in two weeks about that. why is this bad for her beyond people knowing what the goods are that she has? or is there not a beyond? >> it's mostly that, because it's not just people. now, the defense, the people that she has prosecuted have a complete preview of some of the most, as we're discussing, damaging testimony. now, maybe they already knew this, maybe they know it through discovery, the defense moved that way was given to, but now everyone knows it, and the jury poll knows it, so it's a better argument for the defense to change the jury pool. it prejudices all the arguments why in a court that trump is facing prosecution, people are arguing he should be limited in what he can say publicly, because this is the same thing. you have public statements going out there are prejudicial to him. this is the kind of thing as a prosecutor, you see this come out, and your heart starts having petitions. it is not good to have this out there, i don't think. >> does the release of it presumably from one of the defendants who had access to it in the discovery process, does it count as a form of witness intimidation, putting this out there like the, suggesting to other witnesses, don't talk? >> i mean, her argument in her motion is that it is clearly intended to intimidate witnesses. i don't know if i uglier clearly, but you can certainly have that effect, because if you are someone who is going to cooperate, you say, wait a minute, i thought what i told you was confidential, at least until or unless there is a trial, which there may or may not be. you say that to potential witnesses, all the time as prosecutors. we say, what you tell us, we'll keep confidential, yes, we'll have to turn it over to the defense at some point, may or may not go to trial, so you may or may not have to testify. there are a lot of steps to becoming a public, and so, the impact of that one on someone's willingness to come forward and tell you everything and, to in this particular circumstance, with the reality of the world that we're in, we know that people who support trump and follow trump and believe that this is not a prosecution with integrity, will come after people who are saying things because they're saying something bad against trump, not a surly because of anything else. >> i do have to ask you, just because, it seems like the first evidence, though leaked and problematic for valueless, the first evidence that we may have connecting trump to the fake electors plot is maybe given by kenneth chesebro, who in his agreement and the videotapes says that he has a conversation with the president about the matter of arizona, and then described trump's memo on the fake elector scheme. how meaningful is that, setting aside the obvious concerns about witness intimidation and what does the prosecution? >> again, i think substantively, all of this is good evidence for the prosecution. does not mean that there is not a defense, does not mean that there is not evidence that trump and others are gone, but it is good evidence for the prosecution, which, again, is actually why i think the prosecution does not want it to come out ahead of time. i do think that it is surprising that there was not a protective order in place. that was one of my first thoughts, when i heard this come out. i understand that she had asked for one. the judge had ruled on, but this is a case where -- >> obviously want. one >> you want to follow up on it. >> the a willis said about the possible timing of the trial here, i think this case will be on appeals for years, but i believe in that case, there will be a trial, take many months. i don't expect that will conclude under the winter work, the very early part of 2025. what is your reaction to that? >> i come from a school of shorter is better, so while i recognize that there are many defendants here, i think one as a just trial strategy matters streamline and, also, i am not saying that they're right, but it will give, it will give momentum to the argument that this is interfering within an election if it goes to that time period, although -- >> donald trump would like to have extended to 2025, on the hopes that he is reelected and can't do something about it. we're not quite sure. mimi rocah, thank you for helping me understand just how bad and also strong some of this is. we have a lot more to get to tonight. tens of thousands of people gathered in d.c. today to march for israel, but what that specifically means depends on who you talk to you. first, joe biden did something today that donald trump would never dare to do. what he did is coming up next. coming up next. teeth sensitivity is so common. it immediately feels like somebody's poking directly on the nerve. i recommend sensodyne. sensodyne toothpaste goes inside the tooth and calms the nerve down. and my patients say you know doc, it really works. 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(♪♪) with boost infinite, get iphone 15 pro with titanium and save up to 40% on your monthly bill.y. transcend to a wireless utopia and experience america's smart network. with unparalleled coverage from three of the nation's top wireless networks. no trade-in needed to get iphone 15 pro with titanium on us. save up to 40% on your monthly bill and enjoy the latest iphone every year with unlimited wireless. >> tens of thousands of demonstrators poured on to the national mall in washington d.c. to show their support for israel. among them were high-profile u.s. lawmakers like senate majority leader chuck schumer, and elected speaker of the house, mike johnson. the rally was called the march for israel, and it was a unity event, expression of solidarity with israel. but it was very apparent today that supporting israel in this moment means very different things to different people. uniting the crowd were calls to release the over 200 israeli hostages captured by hamas and messages denouncing the rise in antisemitism. but other issues divided the crowd. particularly the issue of a cease-fire. when one of the speakers, cnn's van jones, said he prayed for peace and for an end to rockets from gaza and bombs falling on the people of gaza, the crowd began to drown out his speech with chants of no cease fire. >> [crowd chanting] >> joining me now is peter beinart. peter, thanks for being here tonight. what do you think, i mean tell me what your impressions of this march are beyond the sort of, we can all agree on these two things. what is the sort of, what is your take away from this sort of show of solidarity with moments of fracture? >> i'll be honest, i would've loved to be at this march. it's one of the biggest marches in jewish history. there's so much pain and suffering and agony in the jewish world today. all of us, including myself, no so many people who know other people who were captured or killed. the collective sense of solidarity, i would have loved to be there. obviously antisemitism is rising. it's a very big problem. those hostages, we can't even imagine what their families are going through. but i personally couldn't go because this was also a rally in support of israel's invasion of gaza, which has killed, now, more than 4000 children, that's more children that died in armed conflict in the entire world in all of last year. and if you're gonna justify killing all of those children, you had better have really good answers about israel strategy is to win this war, and i have not heard them. it reminds me so much of america in 2002, 2003, we're gonna win, we're gonna destroy them. okay. what are you gonna do after you deposed gaza? we all know from experience, is easy to depose a government, it's easy to go, in it's hard to get out. it israel stays there, it will be an insurgency as far as the eye can see, a quagmire. if they try to install the palestinian authority, which is totally discredited, the palestinian authority cannot hold gaza in 2007, and they are far weaker. so they will still be there. that's where i couldn't go. i can't justify this level of killing. i'm not sure i could at all. but certainly not without good answers to hard questions. >> yeah. the washington post writes that at the rally today there were people brandishing plenty of signs in support of israel, in support of israel. but others brandished signs saying make gaza flat again. you're not the only person that thinks entering this without a strategy could be a quagmire. it could also further radicalization. the u.n. special rapporteur, friend jessica albanese, warned lastly week that israel's actions in gaza are likely to ratify radicalized more arabs, in the arab world. >> hamas values are fundamentally antithetical to mine and i think anybody who believes indecent moral values. but we also know, as you are suggesting, that hamas recruits its fighters from the families of people israel has killed. so you go in there. you have now killed more than 10,000 people. you're going to stay in gaza. you're going to have hamas or hamas two point oh is going to have a lot more people to fight you. ultimately you need a political answer to the lack of palestinian freedom. if you don't have a strategy for that, even if you could fight hamas, you'll be fighting the next hamas. >> i do have to ask you, when you talk about the death toll here, obviously there was a staggering death toll for that initial attack. the numbers that we have today put the death toll at 11,240 killed in gaza since the start of the war. the reports from the hospitals, the al-shifa hospital, one of the largest hospitals in gaza, the director of the hospital effectively calls the hospital a cemetery. they have to bury the dead in the hospital. they can't exit the hospital because they are saying that israeli idf planes attack anybody exiting the hospital. there is no food. medical teams are surviving on biscuits and dates. there are 100 dead bodies in the hospital. we are learning at this hour that the idf is carrying out an operation inside the al-shifa hospital. i just wonder, as we hear these varying accounts, what do you think the net effect is on israelis and jewish people across the diaspora who listen to this and want some kind of retribution but also understand that this kind of carnage may not be serving their purposes. >> look, i know what people say. people will say their human shields. hamas is embedding itself in civilian areas. that is probably true. you know what, that's the way all guerrilla movements fight. when america was fighting the vietcong, the indian, and they are betting themselves in villages. it doesn't mean the answer is to kill vast numbers of civilians in order to get a small number of the enemy because you're creating more of the enemy. the only way you can ultimately defeat the guerrilla movement is to deal with the political issue underneath it. palestinians have been fighting israel furlong before hamas and will continue fighting israel, tragically, for long after hamas, unless they have their freedom. and life will never truly be safe for israeli jews, who i care about so deeply, unless palestinians also have freedom and safety and dignity. the two peoples are intertwined. i don't think benjamin netanyahu and his government appreciate that. >> to netanyahu, the point i'm missing now here, less than 4% of jewish israelis report that they trust netanyahu as a reliable source of information regarding the war against hamas. does that surprise you? >> not really. this is the other problem, with allowing this government to lead this high stakes effort with no answers. it's not only an extremist government. it's an incompetent government. if the same government that basically was completely asleep at the wheel on october 7th because they had put so many other soldiers in the west bank to protect radical settlers rather than protect the people in southern israel. do we really think these guys have a good plan? i want the united states to be asking them really tough questions and not giving them a blank check to enter into a quagmire which is going to be horrifying for palestinians, ultimately not provide israelis the safety they deserve. and bad for america. >> oh god, peter, a very difficult time in a very wrenching topic. thank you so much for taking some time out of your night to talk with me about it. peter beinart, editor at large for jewish currents magazine. one more story for you tonight about whether or not defendant donald trump gets to say whatever he wants whenever he wants. that's next. that's next. when you have chronic kidney disease... ...there are places you'd like to be. like here. and here. not so much here. farxiga reduces the risk of kidney failure which can lead to dialysis. ♪far-xi-ga♪ farxiga can cause serious side effects, including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration, urinary tract or genital yeast infections, and low blood sugar. a rare, life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking farxiga and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this infection, an allergic reaction, or ketoacidosis. when you have chronic kidney disease, it's time to ask your doctor for farxiga. because there are places you want to be. if you can't afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help. ♪far-xi-ga♪ [coughing] copd hasn't been pretty. it's tough to breathe and tough to keep wondering if this is as good as it gets. but trelegy has shown me that there's still beauty and breath to be had. because with three medicines in one inhaler, trelegy keeps my airways open and prevents future flare-ups. and with one dose a day, trelegy improves lung function so i can breathe more freely all day and night. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. do not take trelegy more than prescribed. trelegy may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vision changes, or eye pain occur. ♪ what a wonderful world ♪ ask your doctor about once-daily trelegy for copd because breathing should be beautiful. meet the traveling trio. the thrill seeker. the soul searcher. and - ahoy! it's the explorer! each helping to protect their money with chase. woah, a lost card isn't keeping this thrill seeker down. lost her card, not the vibe. the soul searcher, is finding his identity, and helping to protect it. hey! oh yeah, the explorer! she's looking to dive deeper... all while chase looks out for her. because these friends have chase. alerts that help check. tools that help protect. one bank that puts you in control. chase. make more of what's yours. are you still struggling with your bra? >> we have deranged jack smith. it's time for you to try knix. makers of the world's comfiest wireless bras. for revolutionary support without underwires, and sizes up to a g-cup, find your new favorite bra today at knix.com have you ever heard of him? he's a lovely man. the trump aiding prosecutor in the case. his wife and family despise me much more than he does and he decides, he's about a ten. they're about a 15 on a scale of ten. >> that is donald trump this weekend at a campaign rally making disparaging remarks about special counsel jack smith and his family while he still can. next week, the d.c. court of appeals is set to hear arguments about a gag order that judge tanya chutkan imposed on trump in this federal election interference case, the narrow gag order prohibiting trump and his attorneys for making public statements targeting special counsel smith or his staff, the court staff, and any witnesses. but the appeals court put that ruling on pause until it decides whether it can gag trump as it might a normal criminal defendant. so for now, trump is allowed to say whatever he wants. and misty, i'm new filing today, cited trump's campaign event over the weekend as just one of the many reasons to stop him. joining me now is joyce vance, former u.s. attorney for the northern district of alabama and co-host of the #sistersinlaw gassed. joyce, always good to see you. thank you for being here. my first question is, is there a question, in your mind, as to whether this gag order is going to hold up in the appeals court? >> no. there's absolutely no question. this is a very limited restraining order that preserves trump's rights to engage in political speech. the court of appeals may even go ahead and put it back in place during oral argument. that doesn't happen very often, a ruling from the bench during an oral argument. this may be the standout case because of trump's ongoing conduct. >> the fact that trump lustily undiagnosed is on the stomp, targeting the special counsel's family sort of gives rise to the initial criticism as to why the court put a stay on the gag order as they deliberated this. >> yes. i think the administrative state as part of the course of a setting like this. you sort of preserve the status quo while you are taking just a few days to decide issues. but trump's behavior, you know, alex, we all know, it is out of bounds, it is dangerous. just the cavalier comments that he made about paul pelosi, the really trivial comments directed at jack smith, endangering his family. this is the sort of conduct that the courts need to put a stop to immediately. >> we know, joyce, as much as it seems like fairly obvious what's going to happen here, stephen miller, his group america first legal, has filed an amicus brief relating to this gag order, saying it is unconstitutional on the grounds of separation of powers. i think 18 red state attorneys general have also filed a brief saying that the gag order should be lifted. is there anything to the argument that this is a violation of separation of powers? >> no. there really isn't. i mean, this is political theater. this is red state attorney generals continuing their allegiance to trump as opposed to engaging any sort of realistic legal analysis. it's not a separation of powers issue. the law is very clear the judge is entitled to put reasonable restrictions designed to preserve the integrity of the trial in place. >> when you talk about the integrity of the trial, there is a legal battle playing out over whether or not the federal trial should be televised. so it is pretty strong then he doesn't want cameras in the courtroom, saying trump wants to create a carnival atmosphere, and trump saying he wants people seeing all the horrible things all the horrible charges. do you have a opinion on this? do you have a sense of how judge chutkan might rule on this? >> i think those are very different questions. the rules and federal courts are clear. cameras are prohibited. media groups have come in and they have argued a couple of different things, and one is that the rule is unconstitutional, that it violates first amendment rights so judge chutkan should set it aside. the other is a technical argument about the nature of broadcast which says that this can be done in a way that wouldn't violate the rule. i think it's unlikely that judge chutkan would go ahead and alter the long-standing practice in federal court, but that's very unfortunate because this is a case that should be put on television so that everyone can see it as it happens. the real problem is that donald trump's response in this case, this sort of last-minute response that he files, saying they jacks mitt is engaging in a show trial that he wants to conduct under cover of darkness, is really nothing other than theater because that is simply not the case. >> he excels at theater. joyce thank, thank you for your time. now it's time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. good evening, lawrence. lawrence o'>> we have senator y klobuchar