florida. that was a classified documents case. a continuation of what we have become so used to in this case. trump appointed judge, eileen cannon entertaining wonky and far-fetched attempts i trump's legal team to dismiss the case. the afternoon focus on a motion brought by special counsel jack smith. the centered of one of the most dangerous lies donald trump has ever told you might recall back in may trump seized upon a righteous conspiracy theory percolating in far right circles , a theory based upon an extreme mischaracterization of the fbi search one -- warrant on mar-a- lago. he claimed that president biden and the fbi were, quote, locked and loaded to take me out during the 2022 search of mar-a- lago. he posted the biden authorized the fbi to use deadly lethal force. what truck tried to portray as an attempt on his life just a distortion of the standard language that companies every search for the false narrative was based entirely on this, the fbi's policy on the use of force. basically it says that agents can respond with deadly force only when their wives are in imminent danger. that language, not unique to the search of mar-a-lago. in fact, it was the very same policy that the fbi used in their search for president biden home as well. anything throughout the process of recovering the documents from mar-a-lago, trump got an unusual amount of leniency including the fact that the fbi notified the secret service for executing the warrant. oh, one other thing. trump and his family were not at mar-a-lago while the search took place. none of those backstop trump's allies from amplifying his life. >> they are saying trump will unleash assassination squads on his enemies but biden unleashed armed agents into trump's house , authorizing them to use deadly force. they were looking for a little action. >> something could have gone down at mar-a-lago the on looking for the documents. >> why was merrick garland prepping for possible shootout? >> merrick garland issued a kill order for president trump. >> all of that was cause for concern. in a recent filing as judge cannon imposed a narrow modification to the true -- terms of trump police. he is left to argue that the first amendment will be eroded unless he is permitted to lie about fbi agents intending to murder him and his family. the law requires no such thing. he then pointed to how trump's rhetoric has led to threats to law enforcement. including sample of a trump supporter arm with an ar-15 and a nail gun attempting to attack an fbi office in ohio three days after the mar-a-lago search took place. he pointed out that hours after trump posted on his social media platform about the search. the supporter posted, kill fbi on-site. this afternoon jack smith's parties made their case. they cited trump's faults claims that he was the target of an assassination attempt. he told the court there was no reason for such language that would invite violence as retribution from trump supporters. in response judge cannon asked, where do you see the call to violence? during another exchange cannon group so foster that she said, i don't like your tone. she said that to a prosecutor just trying to protect law enforcement from threats of violence. i wish i could say that i am surprised. kristy greenberg is the former deputy chiefs in the southern district of new york. mary is a former deputy assistant attorney general for national security at the department of justice. katie phang is the host of the katie phang show on msnbc. she was in court today in fort pierce, florida. katie, let us start with you. jack smith was in the courthouse today. it seems like this hearing got fairly heated at certain points. your big takeaways. >> reporter: you are right about that. i was focusing on jack smith because i want to see the expression on his face when david harbaugh, a part of the special counsel legal team was having the back and forth with judge cannon. judge cannon on previous occasions with this particular attorney, david harbaugh, has had issues with him and vice versa. i don't think that she appreciates the gravity of what was being presented to her because she immediately, not because there were suggested made by the other side in terms of the defense, but she merely said what about the fact that redactions have been done on the names of law enforcement and other witnesses? how is that not enough for me to consider when you make this argument that there is some danger or rest of the law enforcement officers. she put on her hat with what happened today. the hearing was about two hours. jack smith, poker face the entire time. even when there was a lot of heated exchange between judge cannon and the attorney for the special counsel's office. there were some striking things that stood out. one of the things, the special counsel saying, you don't need a tragedy to strike in order to get a modification for the law supports the context and the idea. it was also another phrase that we used. they said trump has a peculiar potent tool. that is his ability to reach his followers on social media. trump has acknowledged in writing and verbal statements that he knows the power of social media for him. that is why there was the argument from the special counsel's office that you don't need something bad to happen. you do not need a link between those examples you just read and explain to our viewers. and then donald trump to say it creates the need. it is actually the threat of significant danger. two of his officers. todd blanche, on behalf of donald trump, did his meandering thing that he does. he said, judge, eventually this will have to happen. maybe at trial when the witnesses are called but otherwise, you do not have a link in the direct connection between trump and these incidents that have been raised as exhibits and examples in the special counsel's motion. because of that, it is a prior restraint on free speech. he is a little account of the office of the president. it is on the either presidential debate and you should not do it. >> how would you push back against the supposedly lack of connective tissue between donald trump's words and the threat of violence against law enforcement officials? >> i think the way to push back is the way that jack smith and his team have done -- have explained in every court where they sought an order like this. this is about modifying the conditions of his bail in order to restrict certain speech that causes that significant and imminent foreseeable danger to law enforcement. in every other case, including in d.c. and manhattan, the prosecutors have given example after example of things that mr. trump says over social media or at campaign rallies and actions and threats taken by individuals out in the united states. those might be call in threats, threatening witnesses, threatening judges' staff, prosecutors and their staff. it might be actual efforts to commit an act of violence, like the example from right after the search of mar-a-lago. there are many, many of these that they have to point two. to suggest there is not a cause and effect, i think really is to ignore what several years now have shown us. i think it was reasonable for her to ask, would redactions take care of it? what mr. harbaugh explained, even with redactions, there have been leaks of the names of the agents and those are available out there still. they cannot be taken down once that has leaked. i actually think the reaction -- redactions have probably repented -- prevented them from being that tragedy that, you know, we do not want to have to wait for. someone can certainly find out the identity of these agents. >> katie had her eyes on jack smith for a reason. you had your eyes on eileen can and you wrote, only judge cannon could use a hearing about the dangers lie that the fbi was out to kill him and his family as an opportunity school the prosecutor and not trump or lack of decorum. >> it made sense that this prosecutor was getting fired up about this. this is a prosecutor who has worked with these agents and built these cases and knows these people and knows they're putting their lives on the line every day for us. this idea that she would be so cavalier to the fact that there really is a threat to them. this motion was filed a month ago. clearly, she does not see any threat because we are not dealing with it right away. she sat on it. while she was sitting on, what happened? well, there was a threat to the fbi agent on hunter biden's case. that person said if trump wins, you go to jail but if trump loses, you will be slaughtered and your family will be slaughtered. those are the kind of threats for this idea that judge cannon is a where is the cause-and- effect? donald trump did not have that person to say this. donald trump, himself, connects capital a to b he said in a cnn town hall that they listen to me. they listen to me like no one else. he knows the effect that he had . we all know the effect he has. so does judge cannon. this idea of the there is not an imminent threat to these agents is just laughable. the idea that she is scolding the prosecutor for getting upset about that and for trying to make his point rather than say to a criminal defendant, you cannot talk about the case agents that way. you cannot save these things and any other criminal defendant or judge would be scolding a criminal defendant for making statements like that. >> giving that she is not moving, what comes next for this motion on the modification? >> reporter: she is allowing each side to file supplements if they want to. for purposes of the viewers to understand, these types of hearings, you have to have record evidence. the government relied upon 11 exhibits and supplement with two extra today with a truth social post and another post done last year. the judge is allowing a couple more days for each site to decide if they want to supplement because there were a few more exhibits included in the government's reply, which is lasting the government filed. however, i am not holding my breath on having any quick thing. as christie notes, this was filed in may after a particularly bad week in may of 2024. really egregious post with statements by donald trump we are having this hearing. i don't expect her to rule on anytime soon. i'm going to say the judge is going to deny the motion for bond modification. it seems obvious that she thought the law and the facts were squarely on the defense's side. the defense had their work done for them today by judge cannon. todd blanche did not have a lot to say when he got up to speak. the burden was on the government because it was their bond motion. the government did not seek a gag order because they anticipated a first amendment speech restraint argument. we have seen gag orders in chutkan and in as well as judge merchan. i think they knew there would be a prior restraint argument that was going to come from the defense. >> i wonder what you make from the fact that jack smith chose the state to be in court. >> i think it shows, frankly, the solidarity with the agents that have built this case whose lives are at risk because of the dangerous rhetoric and lies that mr. trump is telling. i do think it is important and we have seen the special counsel in court, not every single hearing at mar-a-lago or up in d.c. but as often as possible. i think it is a good signal to send but it also sends the message that the prosecutor arguing has the full backing of the special counsel himself. so, that is something that, you know, i just cannot think, maybe this prosecutor is going be on with the special counsel would want. special counsel is sitting right there and he can have a conversation with the prosecutor on his team if he wanted to do so. i think it really firms up that support for the arguments being made. i would also just add to katie's point on why they decided on moving to modify conditions of release as opposed to a gag order. i agreed that the first amendment applies a little differently. i also think that it is the right thing to do. this is pretty typical in a case where you have a defendant who is saying things that are threatening to witnesses, including law enforcement. it is a pretty typical condition of release to require them not to make, you know, those kinds of statements or threats. it is very typical to say, you cannot have conversation with witnesses. trump was ordered not to have conversations with his co- defendants, except to the extent that mr. noda is working for him and he has to have conversations related to work. >> we have about 30 seconds left but i do want to ask you, kristi to what happened this morning you have trump saying that this is all president biden pulling the strings. and then you have his legal team arguing that jack smith has no oversight. which one is that? >> joe biden has nothing to do with this. all he did was put forth merrick garland. it is merrick garland's department of justice but joe biden has nothing to do with it. as to garland's oversight, the special counsel says there is some oversight. the special counsel regulations provide for that. it is a balance between independence and some accountability. any time there is a significant event, there has to be a notification from the special counsel to merrick garland. what does that mean? likely a search warrant on a former president residence and likely in a diamond. they did not go into those details. the regulations provide for some oversight for these notifications to happen. if a special counsel is going rogue and doing things completely not run afoul of doj rules, the attorney general can step in and say, i am overruling you. i'm not letting you do it. >> christie, thank you so much. katie phang, thank you. coming up, the president of united states and a convicted felon walk into a debate stage. it is actually happening and it is happening thursday night. tim miller and claire mccaskill are standing by and they will join me in just 60 seconds. 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how does he make the case to millions of undecided voters that donald trump's criminality should matter to them. mitch landor offered this on meet the press just yesterday. >> the sky is blue sometimes and donald trump is a convicted felon. the american people have to sit in that. the person who wants to be present has to sit with his probation officer before he goes to the debate. it is just a fact. it is not just to call donald trump to a convicted felon but it goes to his behavior and character. he is actually file bankruptcy six times. that means he's not just a bad business guy, it means he screwed all of the people who actually relied on him for a living. the american people will see that. >> tim miller is a former republican strategist and host of the bull shark podcast but claire mccaskill is a former democratic senator from missouri and cohost of the msnbc podcast, how to win 2024. both are msnbc contributors and both are going to be in atlanta for the debate this week. senator mccaskill, i want to pick up where mitch landor left off. discussion of the criminality. there is some handling about whether or not president biden was going to go after former president trump on this question. we have now seen the biden campaign released an ad that goes squarely after him on this topic. do you think he goes after him on thursday night? >> i think he will go after him. i don't know how important it is to remind everyone that donald trump is a felon. think everyone in america knows he has been convicted. there is this calcified group of people that are believing what trump is saying. somehow this is not a valid conviction. it is more important for joe biden to go after donald trump, literally. he needs to be the state of the union joe biden. he needs -- i mean, what a gift he has been given. think about it. donald trump has spent the last six months telling everyone joe biden cannot walk or talk and all joe biden has to do is show scrappy joe biden from scranton , he does not respect trump he knows that trump lies all the time. he needs to say shut up and stop your yapping and do all of those things to put trump in his place and stand up to him. this is about biden showing strength. not so much what he says. >> it is funny, tim, the senator use the term junkyard dog with me over the weekend, which i think does sum up the president biden that we may see it at the same time that you have joe biden preparing for this debate, you have reports that trump is not doing mock debates with anyone standing in for biden but he said it easily with j.d. vance, marco rubio, eric schmidt . wonder what that tells you about the performance he is planning to put on thursday. >> can you even believe what comes out of the truck world? i take all of those reports with a grain of salt. i do think what we can see publicly is that donald trump is concerned about how this debate is being framed up as you leave into the debate. that is why he is doing all of the weird stuff about joe biden being on drugs. it is worth reminding everyone that he tried this playbook in 2020 and a losing debates. you don't remember that because time is a flat circle with these new cycles flashing away. he already tried this joe biden is on drug things and it did not work then. it is absurd. you also see it with him, there was the example of the weekend where he said it was not true but he called the troop suckers and losers. to me, that shows he is a little worried about the debate. he is thinking about what joe biden the tax might be on him and he's trying to take the air out of the blue ahead of time. there is a lot of evidence that trump yields and concerned about the debate how that manifests in his mind and what he is prepping, i am not sure. i can think we can see that he is concerned. >> i think we all except there is an asymmetry here in terms of the fact that we expect president biden to talk about policy and talk about his record and the things that he would want to do in a second term. we don't necessarily expect that of former president trump it over the weekend, i was able to speak with the head of the heritage foundation. asked about project 2025 and basically said it was extending trump is him. just remind everyone project 2025, a blueprint to disassemble the administrative state and implement a christian national agenda. how does president biden take that and pin that on donald trump? >> i think he can do it pretty simply. this campaign for biden is all about contrast it is competence versus chaos. it is darkness versus light. it is a polonius landor pearl -- it is job creation versus thing that america sucks. this really is such a contrast. biden just has to keep drawing that contrast. it is part acting women's freedoms versus bragging about bring down roe v. wade. there are so many things were biden can just quickly pivots of a contrast and it is going to be very hard for trump to do anything but lather in life. he does not do well when he is called to task. if the mics are not on when it is not his turn to talk, i think this could go very badly for donald trump. we will see. frankly, i'm not sure it will make a huge amount of difference either way how this debate goes. i do believe that these independent voters, as they watch donald trump more and more on media, they are seeing how unhinged he has become with electric boat and weird stuff. he is saying really weird stuff now. stuff that makes no sense. >> i will tell you every time i get a -- i realize halfway through the syntax makes no sense and i could not deliver a worthy performance of it. tim, let us talk about those independent that senator mccaskill reference. i feel naked without my whiteboard but you saw those numbers. they are moving in the right direction for president biden. claire gave a little sense of why she thinks that is. i want to know why you think we are seeing that movement and what could happen on thursday night that could further extend those numbers. >> i think there are two groups that are the key for joe biden when it comes to continuing to improve those numbers. i think he is been doing better with both groups. a rare moment of fax over there on fox. that was refreshing to hear. the first with the double haters. these are the independents that do not really like joe biden and they really dislike donald trump. hate is the right word with donald trump. there are feelings about biden that are more mixed. they think he is too old. he is starting to improve with that group and i think he can continue to do if he puts up a compelling performance, a strong performance as claire said on thursday. the other group is a democratic coalition group. it is younger voters. it is voters of color, black and hispanic men that have voted with the democrats. a lot of them are unhappy about inflation. a lot of the younger voters with gaza or other issues. joe biden has to use seal up that base but he can still improve his numbers not by winning over trump voters but by finishing the job of consolidating people that are in the democratic camp those are the two groups he has to talk to. >> i found it interesting in recent biden ads that they have been going after the concept of inflation as actually being about corporate greed. tim miller, claire mccaskill, thanks so much for being with us. today marks two years and supreme court overturned roe v. wade. the movement in this country is just getting started. democratic center catherine cortez masto is standing by. she joins me after a quick break. break. shingles is a painful, blistering rash that can last for weeks. ahhh, there's nothing like a day out with friends. that's nice, but shingles doesn't care! 99% of adults 50 years or older already have the virus that causes shingles inside them, and it can reactivate at any time. a perfect day for a family outing! guess what? 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(knock on the door) are you using all the old spice? oops. ♪ (old spice mnemonic) ♪ dave's company just scored the comcast business 5-year price lock guarantee. high five! high five... -i'm on a call. it's 5 years of reliable, gig speed internet... five years of advanced security... five years of a great rate that won't change. yep, dave's feeling it. yes. but it's only for a limited time. five years? -five years. introducing the comcast business 5-year price lock guarantee. powering 5 years of savings. powering possibilities. we spoke to kevin roberts, one of the architects of project 2025. the blueprint for donald trump if he wins in november. i want to play you what exchange from our interview. >> does heritage and project 2025 believe a woman should have an abortion effort dr. says that she needs one? it is a yes or no question. >> abortion is not healthcare. >> abortion is not healthcare. you should tell that to the countless women whose lives have been put at risk by abortion bans like the wood that michael met in oklahoma was told to sit in a park and tell her as he got worse. or the woman in ohio who was bleeding profusely from a miscarriage and was sent home to wait. or the woman from louisiana who was featured in a new ad from the biting campaign out today. >> i was probably about 11 weeks and i had a miscarriage and the feeling was excruciating. i was turned away from two emergency rooms for that was a direct result of donald trump overturning roe v. wade he is not a convicted felon. trump's thinks he's not be held accountable for his own actions. he will but women and doctors be punished. >> joined me now senator catherine cortez masto of nevada. senator, thanks for being with us i hope you are the architect of 2025 says that abortion is not healthcare. your response. >> first of all, i am outraged. abortion is healthcare. let me say from a state of nevada where i am a proud third- generation, we are proud pro- choice statement upward of voters support a woman's right to choose in the country and that is why we passed a law codifying that in our statues but it will be on the ballot as well. that is no different than the majority of the country. there is not just women, it is men and republicans and democrats. it is nonpartisan. they believe in a woman's right to choose. as you just pointed out, there is an ultraconservative right- wing but does not think the majority knows better or that women no better and is trying to prevent us from accessing 21st-century medication. they will do whatever they can't whether it is passing a ban, using the right wing court or continuing to use our statehouses and legislature been that is why it is important along with tina smith, my colleague from minnesota and other colleagues to actually stop the act and introduce the legislation to protect women's rights. >> i want to talk about that legislation. it can sort of seem like a nebulous and wonky policy thing. it is. it is a zombie law but it is a thing we should not be talking about and yet because the antiabortion movement is insatiable, it is very likely the next frontier of this fight , how would this legislation addresses that challenge? >> what you said. there is an old law from the 1800s that actually prevents us from sending in the medicated abortion, which right now we can access in nevada. we can access across the country. it is not illegal. project 2025 and the ultra right observers with the help of donald trump, he will help them do this if he gets back in the white house. they are going to invoke the act because it is already law that says you cannot transport through the mail this type of literature related to abortion or something like medicated abortion pills. they will invoke it and try to use it. that is why is important to introduce legislation to prevent that from happening. that is what the legislation does which is why these call it stop the compact act. let me bring it home even more so. this is the two year anniversary over overturning roe v. wade. i think we all remember where we were. i remember exactly where i was at that moment and went to the supreme court steps and protested like so many people with the overturning of roe v. wade. it was opinion that set let us leave it to the states. what we have seen is that opinion open the door to not only invoking state rights overturning states rights allowing states to criminalize women if they want to travel, criminalize doctors in states like nevada, if they want to help women with their healthcare needs when it comes to reproductive freedom. to stop contraception and access to mifepristone, which we just talked about. to stop ivf. i can go on and on. this is an effort by the right wing with the help of donald trump to do whatever they can to prevent women's freedoms in this country when it comes to the reproductive rights. that is what this is about. you have to look out this manifesto, the ultraconservative that project 2025. they talk exactly how they will do it. we have to believe them when they say they will do just this. >> i was struck by a recent biting campaign ad where they talk about abortion access and they land on we are up against extremism. it made me think about when i interviewed you in nevada about a year and half ago on the precipice of your re-election. when i was beat to voters in nevada, a lot of them are very often misunderstood on this issue, the way they talk to me about abortion was a question of extremism that republicans were overreaching. i wonder when you talk to nevadans, what you hear from them? >> you are absolutely right. nevada, what i have to say people it is a proud pro-choice statement it runs the gamut for men, women, nonpartisan part of the reason why i was re-elected is because of what you just said. people saw what was happening with reproductive freedom for women and they want us to stand guard to make sure that there could not be a federal abortion ban. that is still -- that is the tone of people in nevada right now. i believe the majority of this country believes the same way. that there is a minority that thinks that may no better than women that they know better than doctors. that they should prevent women from accessing 21st-century healthcare and medication. it is just outrageous to me. that is why we have to be just as vigilant. we have to push back and we have to support and elect pro- choice candidates. we have to get joe biden elected because he stands with us but we have to get jacky rosen re-elected because she stands with us and we clearly have set a record not supporting a woman's right to choose. there is so much at stake in this election but whether it is who we elect or who sits on our federal court but also who sits in the white house and in our statehouses. we have to push back and have a strategy to continue to move forward. that is why we have to pass the act and so much literacy that protects women's freedoms. >> center catherine cortez masto who is leading the charge in the u.s. senate. thank you. coming up, if there's one thing people in trump's life have what might have learned from him, it would be the art of the graph. he was taking copious notes and we have brand-new reporting on that when we come back. the promise of america is freedom, equality, but right now, those pillars of our democracy are fragile and our rights are under attack. reproductive rights, voting rights, the right to make your own choices and to have your voice heard. we must act now to restore and protect these freedoms for us and for the future, and we can't do it without you. we are the american civil liberties union. will you join us? call or go online to my aclu.org to become a guardian of liberty today. your gift of just $19 a month, only $0.63 a day, will help ensure that together we can continue to fight for free speech, liberty and justice. your support is more urgently needed than ever. reproductive rights are on the line and we are looking at going backwards. we have got to be here. we've got to be strong to protect those rights. so please join the aclu now. call or go to my aclu.org and become an aclu guardian of liberty for just $19 a month. when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special we the people t-shirt member card magazine and more to show you're part of a movement to protect the rights of all people. for over 100 years, the aclu has fought for everyone to have a voice and equal justice. and we will never stop because we the people, means all of us. so please call or go online to my aclu.org to become a guardian of liberty today. so, what are you thinking? i'm thinking... (speaking to self) about our honeymoon. what about africa? safari? hot air balloon ride? swim with elephants? wait, can we afford a safari? great question. like everything, it takes a little planning. or, put the money towards a down-payment... ...on a ranch ...in montana ...with horses let's take a look at those scenarios. j.p. morgan wealth management has advisors in chase branches and tools, like wealth plan to keep you on track. when you're planning for it all... the answer is j.p. morgan wealth management. sometimes jonah wrestles with falling asleep... ...so he takes zzzquil. the world's #1 sleep aid brand. and wakes up feeling like himself. get the rest to be your best with non-habit forming zzzquil. ♪ ♪ on january 20, 2017, doug flynn began his toes of donald trump's national security adviser. it stemmed from his contact with then russian ambassador surrogate. within a day the fbi was questioning flynn up out those contacts. in a month flynn was out of a job after it became clear that he misled the trump administration about them. since that time flynn has rebranded as something of a here on the fringe of the far right. he paid lip service to all kinds of ridiculous conspiracy theories. an excellent new piece by david baron of the new york times, that rebanding was proven very lucrative to flynn and his family. the new york times investigation found flynn ramirez had made $2.2 million monetizing michael flynn's right ring to start him in recent years. with more than half of that going to flynn directly. the report indicates the number is certainly an underestimate of the cash flynn has brought in on the circuit. including 60 grand a year for what was a no-show job as the chairman of conservative charities. flynn is hardly the first number to use notoriety as the launchpad of the right wing lifting really giuliana, the bankrupt and twice in that a former mayor of new york city got in the game. >> you know i stand by the truth. i put my name on something, i believe in it today i am thrilled to introduce you to something i've been credibly proud of. my own brand of organic specialty coffee, rudy coffee. believe me when i say it is the best coffee you will ever try. >> we cannot also bibles. the best coffee you will ever try. there is like lindell, one of the top supporters of the big lie of us dolan election but he's made his name selling pillows atop amazon reviews calls, quote, super lumpy. of course, all these grifters were learning from the best. donald trump's entire career has been one long graft. we could dedicate an entire hour to his schemes and is single business fraud to his focus on trump university to drumsticks, trump vodka and the perfume. like his own personal brand of digital trading cards and the shiny gold sneakers. david has been covering these for years and putting that reporting on mike flynn but he joins me like you break it all down. that is next. well, it's easy. we know a great price on a great product is better than one of those things. right? does big wireless really believe that these things actually work? 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(tony hawk) skating for over 45 years has taken a toll on my body. i take qunol turmeric because it helpsorg with healthy joints and inflammation support. why qunol? it has superior absorption compared to regular turmeric. qunol. the brand i trust. you probably have not spent a lot of time thing about national security adviser michael flynn as he resigned in disgrace more than seven years ago. david baron hold has been keeping close tabs on him. because flynn has spun his maga notoriety in a lucrative career with the far right. since leaving the trump administration under an ethical cloud, michael flynn has converted his celebrity with lucrative and sprawling family business. his relatives have marketed the retired general as a martyr raising hundreds of thousands of dollars for a legal defense fund and then pocketing leftover money. sound familiar? david is investigative reporter for the new york times. david, always good to see you. you say flynn has manufactured a, quote, sprawling family business. what does that look like? >> reporter: it has a for profit and nonprofit arms. there is two nonprofits that he and his family have been involved in. one that has employed six different members in the last few years. he also has four profit investments with reawakened tour , this christian nationalist tour. he has a penny stock company with t-shirt. there is a whole variety of things but they are all, as you said, aimed at the same audience. people who believe mike flynn is martyr. and flynn has been pushed more by reaching out to people who want to believe in either for right conspiracy 30s. he has sucked up and amplified the qanon conspiracy theory or theories like it to increase the scope of his empire. >> the scope of his empire. my goodness. what can you tell us about his work with the conservative group america's future? >> reporter: this is an odd nonprofit. it was started in the 1940s but it was an anti-communist nonprofit for a long time. flynn took it over in 2021 and it was dormant. it had made leaders that diapered flynn takes it over and is a $3 million in the bank but it is a blank slate. what he did was to put a bunch of his relatives on the payroll. this is the kind of organization that is so small, typically the board and the chairman work for free. in this case he paid himself. he paid $40,000 the first year and $60,000 the second year for working two hours a week. he also paid his brother and two of his sister, one of his nieces and his sister in law. at a time when the nonprofit was not doing that well. it was losing money and selling off assets. he actually tripled the amount he was paying to his relatives. >> incredible. what have you heard from flynn and his family in response to your reporting? >> reporter: we spent a lot of time trying to reach out to them. we called and sent questions. and did not get a response directly from any of them. we reached out to all the ones involved in these businesses. we heard from a lawyer who said two things. one whatever they got paid winners from the legal defense fund or the nonprofit or from the for profit, they earned it all but none of it was done, it was all worked they had earned if there were errors and it appears there were errors the fine with the government instances where they left out what they were supposed to declare when the nonprofit was doing business with family members. the lawyer said, those were all unintentional. >> here is the thing i need you to help me understand that every time we talk about this is the question, who is buying into best? who is hearing these pleas and reaching into their own wallet to grab their credit card and sign up for this grift ? >> reporter: it is an issue in question. the first thing that flynn did to raise money for this nonprofit and he was using it to pay himself was a strict patriotism appeal. you could become a member of this group of america's future. he had a pocket constitution and some sign things with his name on them. a t-shirt. it was sort of be a great american like mike flynn and travis for $100. they only got about 170 people to sign up that way which was not nearly enough to support the burn rate they were going for with cash. and then they turn to a different audience, which is sort of a qanon and three adjacent audience. what they were doing after couple years of poor financial performance is appealing to the idea that there is pedophiles behind everything, behind the media and politics. and holding training so you could go to in person and pay $40 a person to go to. you can be trained by mike flynn to look at the forces of evil with the which they tell you are everywhere. that turned towards the treasury priest out conspiracy theories only happen after their first appeal did not work well. >> my training, oh goodness. just to make this with the chances that he ends up if donald trump wins a second term in the white house? >> reporter: it certainly seems they might expected to happen know whether that would be national security advisor something like that. he seems like someone who believes he will get a job in the next trump administration. >> always nice to see you. thanks for being with us. up next, special announcement about something we are all pretty excited about here on msnbc we will be right back. i was born to live in the limelight. but psoriasis kept me in the shadows. until i got clearer skin with bimzelx. most people got 100% clear skin. some after the first dose. serious side effects, including suicidal thoughts and behavior, infections and lowered ability to fight them, liver problems, and inflammatory bowel disease, have occurred. tell your doctor if these happen or worsen, or if you've had a vaccine or plan to. 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"the rachel maddow show" starts right now. hi, rachel. >> you realize this means people will understand whether we are wearing pants or just disembodied people from the