>> so the key now is to make sure there's strong followup, strong execution of the plans that have been put forward. >> as president and candidate for re-election in tough times mr. obama was crystal clear on the domino effect of that euro zone deal. >> if europe is weak, if europe is not grown as our largest trading partner that is going to impact our businesses and ability to create jobs here in the united states. >> a bit more positive news from the commerce department. it reported that the over all u.s. economy grew at an estimated annual rate of 2.5% in the third quarter. now that's hardly a robust rate yet it is nearly double the anemic growth back in the april, may, june quarter. can this rally be sustained? can we finally set aside worries of sliding back into recession? we begin with alison kosic live at the new york stock exchange tonight. was this rally all about europe? >> it was all about europe, john. the european debt deal is what wall street has been waiting for, for a long time. the agreement includes a stronger bailout fund. it's going to force european banks to set aside more cash and includes a plan to reduce greece's huge debt load. it is these debt problems that have been hanging over the markets for many months. for sometime now causing all the volatility we've seen in the markets for sometime. investors have been worried about greece defaulting and what the ripple effect would be in europe and here in the u.s. now it looks like greece is likely going to be able to pay its bills so that brought all the confidence back into the market and investors bought into it in a big way today not wanting to miss the rally for a minute. john? >> so, alison, enough positive data to breathe a sigh of relief or could we be in for another rollercoaster? >> you know, i talked with some analysts and traders and they say, you know, we really dodged one bullet but then we've got lots of bullets left. this plan only topples that. it doesn't do anything to boost growth in europe. greece still has to go through with its austerity cuts. italy is talking about some cuts, too. so some analysts are concerned actually that italy could be the next shoe to drop because italy is swimming in its own pool of outstanding debt so beyond the details and implementation of how this big european debt plan is going to happen there is still the big question of how to get the economies overseas moving and i haven't even mentioned our own debt problems that we have to deal with that super committee still has to come up with an agreement on cutting $1.2 trillion by november 23rd. so, john, what you'll see is that is going to be the next worry to hang over wall street. >> a lot of worries around the world here in washington and wall street. alison kosic live tonight. thanks. more perspective now. mark zandy is the chief analyst for moody's analytics. mark, i want to begin with you. a lot of americans even now, some are still saying why does this brouhaha, this dysfunction in europe affect me? help them understand it. >> well, europe is our largest trading partner. a lot of companies have big ex-poesh tours what goes on in europe and our banks do as well. they do a lot of business with european banks. if europe is struggling, if the european economy is in recession it's going to have a ripple effect on us through trade, through the stock market, through the banking system. you know, we are literally tethered at the hip with europe. i think our economy could digest a mild european recession, but it could not digest a severe recession. it would drag us down, too. >> david, as we watched this play out we know and alison just mentioned there is dysfunction here in washington about the super committee. the u.s. deficit reduction plan. we'll get to that in a moment. we just saw the picture of the key european leaders sarkozy, merkel, berlusconi. they have an agreement on paper now. do you have the confidence? they've had some hiccups in getting to this point. that they can get it to the finish line? >> there is a lot more work to do. implementation is going to be as they say a bear. but the fact is people by late yesterday as the summit was still going none brussels were starting to get a bit pessimistic. would europe come up with the bazooka is what it's called to stop this contagion from the greek debt situation from spreading to italy and as far as us here in the united states. they didn't come up with a bazooka but a blueprint for a bazooka. if you stared at it long fluf it would start to look like one. that was as we saw in the stock market today enough. >> enough for now, mark and david. mark, back to you, we get these gdp numbers out of the commerce department today, 2.5% in a strong economy we'd be worried about that. in a weak economy we celebrate it as better than the last quarter. >> right. >> but not enough to deal with the big fundamental problems of unemployment and if you don't deal with that how are you going to deal with consumer confidence? >> you know, good point. but i'll take it. i mean, just think back a few weeks ago. you know, there were some legitimate concerns that the economy would completely stall out and we'd get no growth, maybe even a negative number. so 2.5% growth in that context isn't too bad. if you look at the details of the numbers, they're also somewhat encouraging and suggest that growth going into the current quarter q 4 is okay but you're absolutely right, john. this isn't enough, i mean if we're going to make any dent with respect to unemployment, we're going to have to have growth that is north of 3% on a consistent basis and we're still a long way from that. >> so, david, not enough to make us feel better about the jobs situation. is it enough to make us set aside the script we're keeping say we might fall back into double dip? >> well, one thing we now know is we did not fall into a recession in the last quarter. that's what the numbers showed today. there were some interesting details as mark points out in the gdp report. one of them is this. got a lot of companies around the country sitting on a lot of cash. they've generated that from their profits. if we could just get them to spend, can't really ask the consumer to spend much more, kind of tapped out, if we can get the businesses to spend that would be a good thing. we saw business investment up 16% in the last quarter. that is good news. consumer spending up. not bad news. what was disturbing though was income after taxes actually down during the quarter meaning we've dipped into our savings. >> and so if we need that confidence, mark, to you, as you know, a lot of those businesses have said some stability out of the governments would help. we see perhaps progress in europe. what about these super committee deliberations, the democrats make one proposal. the republicans say no way. they have a proposal. it may be behind closed doors they're getting something done but publicly they're not inspiring confidence at the moment are they? >> yeah. you're right. the super committee has to come up with something. i mean, if the process completely fails, if the committee is unable to come up with any kind of deficit reduction, i think that would throw our financial markets back into turmoil and that would be the fodder for going back into recession. so i don't know that the committee can come up with the goal of $1.2 trillion at least substantively. i don't think they need to but they need to come up with four or five or $600 billion just to ensure people feel confident that we're going to follow through on this deficit reduction effort that we're now engaged in. so this is very key. the coast isn't clear. this is a hurdle we have to get over. >> christopher freeland the global editor at large for reuters joins our conversation. as we look to the political dysfunction in washington for businesses and consumers and everybody looking for some sign that they get it, are you convinced they get it? >> well, i do think they get it. but i think what they get more is the 2012 election. and what seems to me to be happening is really a lot more about political posturing and lot less about coming to the kinds of deals that mark was talking about. you know, what i would really like to see and what i think business would like to see would be some concrete, practical action on some of those housing proposals that we've heard from the white house this week. i think that would do a lot of good to get the sluggish economy going. i think the jobs situation is still really a crisis. probably the preeminent one for the u.s. economy. >> so, david, if you're the average american out there and watching this wondering what about me, if you accept her logic that they'll cut a deal but it won't be a big, bold deal because politics will constrain that, what is your outlook over the next year? should you be changing your behavior at all based on what's about to happen? >> well, they're always telling us to save and this is a period to save which is the opposite of what the economy needs but it is exactly what many american families need to do given the uncertainty. i think what she said is key, which is something has to be done about the housing market. federal reserve chairman bernanke talked about congress, please, come up with some sort of path to the future when it comes to what to do about these foreclosures and the mortgage market in general. that's got to happen. that could actually happen before you get a budget due. >> if i could just jump in the interesting thing about housing is there are quite a few things the white house could do, that it doesn't need congress for. that's what i would really like to see the white house focusing on right now. we know there is a political log jam so this could be a great moment for some real tactical steps that the president can just do. >> beyond what he has done and promised yesterday? what more can he do? >> well, i think he took a tactical step a couple days ago by proposing some changes to refinancing to allow more homeowners to refinance. i think that's a good, tactical step. but a broader point is i don't think there are any home runs here. there are no policy efforts that you can put into place quickly that will make a big difference so it's got to be things like he did a couple days ago. one other idea would be, for example, we've got a lot of foreclosed properties that are coming to market over the course of the next several months. that's going to drive down house prices, give investors a tax break, temporary tax break to go out and buy those properties. that would be helpful. it's those kinds of things. this isn't a grand plan, grand solution. but if we string enough singles together, then it will make a difference. >> mark, david, chrystia appreciate your insight on what we can say is a positive day. we hope it's followed by more. appreciate your help trying to lay out the path. still to come, tonight's truth looks at rick perry's new strategy. is ducking debates a viable comeback strategy? and sharp words between the obama administration and a top republican investigating the fast and furious gun trafficking debacle. >> she can be very thin skinned about being asked very legitimate questions and talks in terms of how dare you ask this question or i don't like your tone. so if i didn't know better i'd say you're having some sort of big tire sale. yes we are. yeah. how many tires does ford buy every year? over 3 million. you say you can beat any advertised price on tires? correct. anywhere? yes. like this price? yes. riously? yes what about this one? i'll beat it. this one? s we will. right, i only have one more question for you...this one? 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[ female announcer ] the travelocity guarantee. if your booking's not right, we'll help make it right, right away. from the price to the room to the trip you'll never roam alone. more fireworks and tension on capitol hill over the botched gun trafficking program called fast and furious. the latest sign of the mistrust between the obama administration and congressional republicans came as the homeland security secretary janet napolitano was before a key house committee. operation fast and furious was supposed to find out how american guns got into the hands of mexico's drug cartels and actually that program allowed u.s. guns across the border. this week the house oversight committee wanted to know why secretary napolitano didn't act more quickly when some of those guns turned up at last december's killing of u.s. border patrol agent brian terry. >> in the case of brian terry, he was gunned down with two weapons from fast and furious. it has been months. you tell me that you're not -- you weren't doing it because of an ig investigation. let's go through a few questions here, madame secretary. >> wait just a minute. wait just a minute. >> let me finish my question. >> go ahead but that insinuation is not -- >> madame secretary, you -- we could have the record read back and take a few minutes. >> no, it's the insinuation i'm objecting to. >> california republican darrell issa joins us from capitol hill. mr. chairman, let me start first with your premise. do you think she slow walked the investigation? >> i think she would like to have us believe she never talked to eric holder even though she was terribly concerned about the loss of not one but two of her agents in two separate episodes and she did so because of an investigation over at justice. candidly, there were more than two months that went by between the death of brian terry, her attendance at his funeral, and the beginning of the ig investigation. you would think there were a few cabinet meetings and plenty of opportunities to say, oh, by the way, eric, tell me more about fast and furious and how my agent got killed with weapons that you let walk into the hands of drug cartels. >> listen to a little bit more of your exchange with secretary napolitano, a question on the other side. >> i think your insinuation that -- >> ma'am, please answer the question. please don't talk in terms of insinuation. >> may i have the opportunity to answer, please? >> a couple points here. number one, you can see it in her face and hear it in her voice and then you challenge her back. are you concerned here at all that there is a level of mistrust, even enmity that is going to get in the way of this? well, remember, this is a secretary who, her appointees, demanded that freedom of information act documents be brought to them and politicized the process of releases to organizations like cnn and others. this is somebody who thought it started off not wanting to have full and complete disclosure and transparency and we've already seen that. you saw yesterday she can be very thin skinned about being asked very legitimate questions and talks in terms of how dare you ask this question or i don't like your tone. we are looking at dead people on both sides of the border, an estimated over 200 next cans killed by weapons allowed to walk by our administration, our government. all we're doing is what we must do constitutionally and she must do and eric holder must do, and that is hold people accountable who made mistakes and then make sure those mistakes are not repeated. we're not getting the cooperation we'd like. we believe that she should be as concerned and as forthcoming as we are. this shouldn't be a partisan question but how do we keep something from going so wrong in the future? right now we're not getting that level of cooperation in this process. >> the gravity of this underscores the importance of your investigation and any investigation into this which is why i ask if you're worried at all from your perspective that the politics of it, the mistrust of it, are getting out of control. do you, for example, i know how these things get in the back and forth of the committee here but you called her ma'am. protocol in washington would be madame secretary. any regrets for that? >> not at all. i did also say madame secretary. i was brought up in a household with sir and ma'am and certainly madame secretary or secretary or chair, i think, there was no intention, i haven't ever called a cabinet officer by their first name in a formal hearing or anything of that sort. look, i respect her qualifications. she was a u.s. attorney, attorney general. she was a governor. but i am concerned that she made a statement that an ig investigation stopped her from asking her question but that investigation didn't begin for more than two months after brian terry's murder and she characterized it as immediate action. i don't think two months is immediate action. remember, senator grassley and myself had already opened investigations and been thwarted by justice before they ever went to their own attorney or their own ig. >> the president of the united states was asked about this the other day by abc. listen to this. >> this investigation will be complete. people who have screwed up will be held accountable. it's very upsetting to me to think that somebody showed such bad judgment that they would allow something like that to happen and we'll find out who and what happened in the situation and make sure that it gets corrected. >> do you take the president's word? do you trust the thoroughness of the administration's internal investigation and is there any sharing of information? maybe they have information you would like. maybe you have information that could help them. >> i do take the president at his word. i believe he wants to hold all of those accountable. i don't take the attorney general at his word because i get the distinct impression they want to make this go away by blaming low ranking people, the resignation of the u.s. attorney, rather than realizing that plenty of people knew or should have known to stop this program and didn't. and we want to know where the safeguards, not just by name but by position will really be there in the future because we can't bring these two agents back to life. we can't recall the 2,000 weapons. but we can take steps to make sure this wouldn't happen in the future. we owe that to the families and the next administration. because this is not a republican mistake or a democratic mistake. this is a kind of mistake bureaucracies make. and if we don't hold them accountable who will? >> we were trying to shed some light on this issue a few days ago. we had one of your republican members jason the show. you've received a letter from the attorney general who seems to think there is politics behind this. listen to the ranking democrat on the committee. >> i think we have to be very careful as to how we proceed. i mean, i think we need to go where the evidence leads but we've got a subpoena just issued that is literally requesting tens of thousands of documents from the justice department and many of these documents are totally unrelated to fast and furious so you got to begin to ask the question, what is this about? is this about trying to score some political points? >> have you cast too wide of a net, mr. chairman, trying to score political points? >> i certainly hope not. in some cases we did things, like we asked for all of the e-mails of one individual for a three-day period. now, you know, john, if you have e-mails like i do that could be a lot of documents. but we tried to be narrow. we looskd at a window we had been informed by a whistle blower, correspondents went on, and we asked only for that window. so sometimes there is a voluminous amount of documents. that's not our intent. remember that i have a very limited staff compared to the administration. the last thing i need is more documents than we can go through. we are trying to be narrow. the other thing is if they would just be forthcoming, you know, the attorney general told us under sworn testimony that he'd only heard about fast and furious a few weeks earlier. he has yet to correct how much earlier and when asked to come back before judiciary another chairman's committee he's put it off until december. that by definition slows the process. elijah cummings and i do not have a great working relationship. i believe he is there to be stopping, a stumbling block, in his opinion to try to stop and help and protect the administration. and i regret that, because the last chairman, ed towns and i, had a good relationship in which we were willing to go where the facts took us. and that's sometimes a problem here in washington. >> appreciate your time tonight. >> thanks. ahead, tonight's number answers this question. who works more, you or congress? and would skipping some debates hurt governor perry's presidential prospects? that's tonight's truth, next. i'm not a number. i'm not a line item on a budget. and i'm definitely not a pushover. but i am a voter. so washington... before you even think about cutting my medicare and social security benefits... here's a number you should remember. 50 million. we are 50 million seniors who earned our benefits... and you will be hearing from us... today and on election day. ♪ . an age old trick in politics. more face time with voters in key early primary states. there are four debates scheduled in the month of november. governor perry will be at the first one on the 9th but after that we can't be sure. >> it takes valuable time away from campaigning in iowa as those elections approach. >> do i take that as -- are you saying he is going to look over the calendar and scratch some of them out? >> john, i think there are 18 more in the planning phases. there is no way the candidates can do all those debates. >> we shouldn't be surprised. governor perry's history in texas shows he debates only when he has to. no debate for example with his democratic opponent in his last governor's race. but here's tonight's truth. what worked in texas isn't likely to work on the national stage especially in a gop presidential race that has been dramatically reshaped more than once by the debates. it was a strong debate performance in june for example that created the michele bachmann boomlet but she quickly talked her way into trouble and then herman cain on the strength of strong debate performances emerged as the new conservative surprise in the field. don't forget newt gingrich, the former house speaker remains in the middle of the pack but he has proven himself to be a very strong debater and those performance have helped him climb into double digits in all of the key early states. he is now a factor in those states. cain won't be skipping many if any debates. ditto for gingrich. governor perry needs now to get past both of them to get where he thought he was at the outset of this race. that would be in the role of principal conservative challenger to the front runner mitt romney. now governor perry was in that spot when he entered the race ten weeks ago. not anymore. he blames the debates. >> i don't think anybody has run the perfect campaign and these are set up for nothing more than to tear down the candidates. >> he is right the debates are a big factor in his slide but dead wrong about why. governor perry has torn himself down with honest answers about his record on immigration and a state mandated vaccine that have just turned off some conservatives and he's also torn himself down with unfocused or rambling answers that raised doubts of a different kind. >> is it the mitt romney that was on the side of against the second amendment before he was for the second amendment? was it -- was it before he was before the social programs from the standpoint of he was for standing up for roe vs. wade before he was against it? >> a little confusing right? governor perry has the money to make his case on television and in a republican primary history suggests this argument from the governor does have some merit. >> as conservatives, we know that values and vision matter. it's not who is the slickest candidate or the smoothest debater that we need to elect. we need to elect the candidate with the best record and the best vision for this country. >> yes, governor perry can skip a debate or three. governor romney is also hinting of debate fatigue and, yes, governor perry is right that ideology does tend to come first in gop contests. the truth is, republicans see a golden opportunity to defeat president obama but they know it won't be easy. and they know the incumbent is a strong debater, which makes ducking debates a dangerous risk for governor perry. it would only reinforce the impression he has left from his recent debate performances, which is not a good impression. the high tv ratings for all of these early debates so far tell you republicans are watching closely. it's a simple truth that in a close general election race the debates next october will matter and perry's top rivals based on the evidence so far seem much more up to the challenge. if nothing else, governor perry needs the practice. important news tonight from one of the most important u.s. allies in the middle east, a country with lots of oil. ctric? 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[♪...] >> announcer: now get a $250 airfare credit, plus save up to 65%. call 1-800-sandals. certain restrictions apply. welcome back. breaking news. an important u.s. ally saudi arabia just announced the new heir to the throne. state run saudi television reports the new crown prince is nayef bel aziz. there was a high level u.s. delegation to saudi arabia to offer condolences over last weekend's death of the previous crowned prince. a big announcement from hewlett-packard today. it is keeping the personal computer division after all reversing an earlier plan to spin it off. new urgency in the occupy wall street protests across the country because of what you're seeing right there. tuesday a former u.s. marine was seriously injured when police broke up a demonstration in oakland, california. scott olson is in fair condition today with a fractured skull. he was standing next to his friend joshua shepard who talked to us moments ago. >> i'm aware of a police investigation but i'm also aware of, you know, a somewhat ambivalent tone to their responsibility for the entire incident. i think there is a definite need for a serious accountability. this is not an isolated incident in oakland. >> we'll keep our eyes on that one. an important story. erin burnett "outfront" coming up at the top of the hour. on track for the best month since 1974, when luke at the markets what jumps out? >> i'm grabbing my piece of paper here. first of all, john, best since january, 1974 as you said. it's pretty amazing. when luke across the board you saw companies of all ilks going up. we haven't seen days like this and a month like this is pretty amazing because a month ago we were talking about a double dip and people were worried. at that time companies still didn't see the double dip but now the proof is in the pudding. the thing i highlight in the economic growth number, john, is consumers. you saw people spending money at a much higher rate than anybody had expected. so on a relative basis it was really good news. on an absolute basis the economy is still not growing anywhere near where it can and where it should. we have a long way to go. >> big warning signs that the politicians have their hands on. number one the super committee here in washington that has to prove it's serious about deficit reduction. number two, the european leaders who have had quite a bit of congressional like dysfunction i will call it have to implement this deal they just brokered. >> this deal, you know, this is interesting, john. i know we've all got, and i was seeing something like 14 summits the european leaders have had to try to get to this deal and we still don't know the details but it does appear to be big enough to make a difference and that is what matters. europe is the biggest trading partner for the u.s. and for china. it really is a crucial story here for the u.s. but when you look at what is happening to greece, this is a deal that gets greece's debt to gdp, debt relative to the size of its economy at 120%. just to put it in perspective in the u.s. where our super committee is dysfunctional and we're frustrated isn't acting we're at 62%. so even with this fix, greece and europe still have a lot of issues. i wouldn't say that this one day wonder is going to last forever. but it is moving in the right direction. >> and you know it's a good day. we'll just celebrate the good day. >> take it where you can get it, john. >> and get back to the other stuff in the morning. thanks. we'll see you in a few minutes. when we come back here he is the surprise of the republican race. he's not just leading in the national polls but moving up in all of the key states. here's the question. here's the question. is herman cain for real? you got $100 off for every year of safe driving, so now your deductible is zero. the other good news ? i held on to your coffee. wow. ♪ nationwide is on your side ( laughing ) it's actually a pretty good day when you consider. that's great. the question everybody is asking when it comes to politics today. is herman cain for real? he looks it if you read cnn's latest polls which show him in virtual ties with former governor mitt romney in the important early primary states of ohio, south carolina, iowa is a caucus state but you get it. there are also new reports of chaos within the cain campaign and controversies over some of his recent campaign ads and web videos. we're joined by cnn contributor eric erickson. and barack obama's deputy national campaign manager back in 2008 and our chief political analyst here at cnn gloria borger. eric to you first. the cain phenomenon is what everyone is asking. does he have the staying power? there are two key questions raised. one can he keep raising the money and two can he build an infrastructure amid a lot of staff turmoil? you have new information that answers part of that. >> yeah. i was on the phone earlier today with some of his finance guys telling me in this month, the month is not even over they've raised over $4 million online. that doesn't count offline. they've just started ad campaigns in the last week. they're seeing tens of thousands of dollars coming in directly tied to those ad campaigns. they're growing their staff in key states. they've just picked up key endorsements on the ground in iowa and in florida and they feel like they're going to have the money now to be able to put in an apparatus in iowa, south carolina, and florida. i'm not sure they're taking new hampshire super seriously. they may be. not sure about that one. >> one of the keys though is that we've got about 60 days. can you actually in a caucus state in particular in iowa lay ground game in 60 days? >> mr. hildebrand is here and knows iowa quite well. let's put the question to you. you work on the democratic side. it's not a primary. it's a very different turnout organization. can you do it especially eric says there they're raising some money. that is important. he says they're hiring some people which would help. hard to build a grass roots organization in iowa in 60 days. can you do it when if you pick up the "new york times" today you read things from a staff member. everything we try to do is like pulling teeth to get accomplished said a former staff member in iowa. i've never been involved in a job as frustrating as this one. we couldn't get an answer on anything. everything was fly by the seat of your pants. >> they don't have any time. they've got 60 days. that is through the holidays too so a lot of down time. iowa is very hard to put together in 60 days. i don't see how he can do it. >> he says he doesn't see how he can do it. the iowa polls, our new poll shows governor romney 24%. herman cain 21%. then ron paul, newt gingrich, rick perry. that's a caucus state. be careful about polls in caucus states. they give you a general ballpark and aren't as good as a primary state poll. if you break this down among iowa tea party supporters, herman cain 29%, mitt romney next at 17%. if you look at evangelicals they are a key constituency in iowa. herman cain leads with 23%. then gingrich, paul, perry, romney. so he has the people at least to have a credible showing if not a great showing. >> he does. >> the question is can you organize them? >> can you organize because you have to get people out on a cold winter night, right? and also, can the candidate stay on message enough? i mean, this is a date who clearly is being vetted before our very eyes. and he's freelancing along the way. he has made mistakes on important issues like immigration, abortion, very important to conservatives, evangelical voters. even 9-9-9 he had to kind of revise. he has to tighten his message, get his staff together, and show he can lead. he runs on his business experience. if he can't run his staff that's a problem. >> anybody running for president the first time needs help from experienced staff members. the candidate might not think so but they do. herman cain has run for office before but never at this level. he's never won when he has run for office before. one more for the "new york times" story today. then there was the e-mail to the staff about traveling in a car with mr. cain. do not speak to him unless you are spoken to the memo said. i found it odd said a former staff member who liked to prep mr. cain for appearances while driving. i've spoken to him for several times. i don't pretend to know him. he seems a pretty confident guy. is he a guy who pushes people away? you know him better than i do or is this overly protective senior staff? >> i think it's staff. i know herman very well. i supported him when he ran for the senate in georgia several years ago. i know him. he is very gregarious. the staff loves him. he loves the staff. i think this is a staffing issue not a candidate issue. and i know the campaign has looked at staffing issues. i think there are probably some problems there. they're going to have to shake it out. over arching all of this money, support, you can't escape the fact that he is the most likeable guy on the republican side. and some people are going to vote for him just because they like him. >> i was having a conversation with the democratic pollster peter hart with us last week. he did some focus groups in ohio. he says we over obsess about breaking down the 9-9-9 plan, looking into the structural and other problems he has. he says as a message candidate herman cain is something right now and has great appeal. does it get you to the finish line is the big question. i think what's especially important about herman cain is that, a, he is for real. he has a credible chance at the moment. a lot of options and a credible chance at the moment and he is clear in the path of the guy who was supposed to be the conservative challenger to mitt romney now, rick perry has to get through newt gingrich, ron paul, herman cain to get back into position and, gloria, he says his strategy to do that is to skip some debates. >> yeah. well, i think that's a problem. that's a real problem. i mean, why if you were not doing well at debates and that was your first introduction to republican voters, would you then say, i'm going to skip debates, rather than going to debates and actually having a good debate performance so you could get those voters back ontrack. >> you went through this with then senator obama in 2008 and if we broke out the tape, some of those early debates i would say were not his finest moments. but you grow and you learn, right? >> you do. it's an important -- you're preparing yourself for a general election. if you're not doing that in the primaries, if you're skipping those very important debates, you're simply going to be less prepared for that general election. when you do have to debate a guy as capable as the president. >> i do think it's a fair point for any candidate to say, well, geez. how many of these things could we go through? let's show people what we have. too many debates. in 2004 there were 17 democratic debates. in 200819 democratic debates. 15 republican debates. this year we have had eight so far. 13 on the books to go. that would be 21. and there are people trying to plot and plan even some beyond that. eric, the governor might have a valid point about debates but as someone who got in late, if he was in the beginning with everyone else and said i'm not going to take that debate or that debate then governor romney might not have gone. somebody else might not have gone. it might not have made it on national television. now that we're this far in and in a campaign in which the debates clearly have had high viewership and impact on the race could he now say, no? >> i think there are some he can probably afford to skip. none this coming month, the cnn, cnbc, those are going to be high profile debates. some of the smaller ones in december, yeah. i'm not going to hold it against any candidates that they say they've got 30 days and holidays for people to compete and get into iowa and south carolina. i think the bigger issue here is the lack of message discipline. he announced his economic plan and instead we were focused on this birther comment. now instead of going back to the economic plan we go back to the debates. do they have no message discipline in team perry? >> the next debate is about the economy. maybe they'll get back on it there. stay put. next today's number. compare the number of days you work with the number of days congress will be working here in washington next year. be prepared to cringe. i heard they found energy here. it's good. we need the jobs. 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109. that's how many working days the congress will have in washington in 2012. this is the announce many. 109 working days in washington. this announce many today from the house republican leadership. guess what some the democratic leader nancy pelosi said it's an outrage. >> at a time, any time having, was it six days on the calendar in january, it really makes you wonder about the schedule. but particularly at this time when the american people are feeling so much pain -- >> does she have the right to make that argument? well? maybe. the democrats controlled the house heading into the 2010 cycle. they announced 116 working days in 2010. so seven more. the democrats, i guess we have to give credit for working an extra seven days last time. so what does all this mean? let's punch this through. here's what it works. 109 working days at 40 hours a day, that mean $200 an hour. $174,000 a year congress makes. that trans flights $200 an hour. the average american works 250 days. that's a lot more than 109. the average american salary, $44,000 a year. $22 an hour. now congress will argue, we're homeworking in our districts. this isn't a fair comparison. they can make that argument but even if the math isn't exactly right, you might think you're working a lot harder than they are. let's talk this over. steve hildebrand, you've worked on races for congress. on facebook you started, dump congress 2012 on facebook. so you're not a fan? >> it's disappointing, john. those 40 hours that we're suggesting they work in a week, they're fundraising 30 of those hours. they're raising anyone pacs, corporate interests. >> democrats and republicans. >> democrats and republicans. the only way we'll stop that cycle is to start over. dump them all. start over. >> democrat and republican. >> democrat and republican. get everybody out of d.c. who is so tied to this cycle of special interests fundraising and start over with a new group of people who refuse to take that pac money, that lobbyist money, let's start over. a clean slate and put people to work who are going to focus on solving america's problem instead of solving for the next election. >> delivered calmly but that's a throw the bums out message from the left. >> and it could happen. with wee had three swing elections in a row. if members of congress are not doing their jobs, you could argue, why should they be here? there's nothing for them to do. in theory, i love the idea of congress. i love congress. i'm somebody who grew up covering congress. but in practice -- >> i'm going to buy you that bumper sticker. let's see how many time your car gets keyed. >> don't take it out of focus. look, they're waiting for the super committee to action and they're doing nothing. >> they're waiting for the super commit yeah to act and that's important business. they've been dysfunctional. while they're working on the super committee. here's some of the thing they are doing. first a set-up. a story in the new york times about this whole controversy about who gets into the big 12, an athletic conference. it is important to you if you're an athletic fan. a person with direct knowledge said it was too close to call of between west virginia and louisville. two others said the lobby had helped. here's the senator from west virginia. he is appearing on msnbc's daily rundown earlier today and he is mad about this. >> a press release was issued from the big 12 to the officials that they would be using on wednesday. books, room were booked, flights were booked and then all of a sudden, tuesday afternoon, that's not what we should be doing out of washington. that's not the type of politics to be played. we've got more problems than this. >> he's meaning senator mcconnell shouldn't be lobbying about that. if he's right about, that he shouldn't be worrying about it publicly, from the house floor today, if we're not talking about the big 12, we might as well talk about the big east. >> we should be talking about the s.e.c., the only conference that matters but that's a separate issue. i wish they weren't working 109 days. maybe 9 days. look at their track rofrld bipartisan. they can pass laws the people can help. i think we maybe need to do more sxlekss throw them all out. the sad fact is that we're going to have a 90% re-election rate in congress in 2012. we always do. we're going, everybody likes their guy, they hate the other guy so they'll reelect their guy and we'll be as cynical next year as last year. >> even in theory i don't love them anymore. it just isn't working. >> what's the problem? is it as bad as that? are we overly cynical in the media? are they just bad communicators? >> this is a feature. >> a greater approval rating than congress does. >> this is the feature. it's not about congress. the founding fathers hated democracy. they were deeply suspicious of it. they made it as difficult as possible to pass anything. and we're seeing that the stuff that does get passed gets passed with compromise which everybody wants. >> i know you will hate this but there is no center in the american in congress anymore. because of redistricting and if there were -- >> there's not. >> if there were, they might be able to get some thing done. >> as a guy named king, i've always been for restoring the monarchy. i don't think that's a feasible option. >> four years ago, the candidate that steve hildebrand was working for said this. >> the question in this election is not, are you better off than you were four years ago. we all know the answer to that. the real question is, will this country be better off four years from now? >> that's a tough piece of tape to have heading into this election cycle, isn't it? the economy is in such tough shape. >> it but that doesn't mean our country isn't better off than we were before. we're a more stable democracy. we're bringing our troops home from iraq. we have two
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