Transcripts For MSNBCW Deadline 20240702

all right, everyone, it's 4:00 in new york. the extraordinary moment when donald trump went from disgraced, twice impeached, four times indicted ex-president liable for sexual abuse and defamation to suddenly, in an instance, disgraced, convicted, twice-impeached, four times indicted ex-president liable for sexual abuse and defamation. it's just the beginning of the beginning, the start of a long legal odyssey for donald trump. and because the republican party has followed him willingly down to the rabbit hole toward autocracy, the country has to grapple with it as well. having spent the trial in an environment completely out of his control, defendant donald trump will now be subject to the rules, the demands, and the processes of the criminal justice system, just like any other american citizen, who's been convicted of a felony. his right to vote, even on a ballot that bears his name is likely to survive only because of a quirk of the law in his current home state of florida. "washington post" reporting this, quote, if the former president had been convicted in republican dominated florida or most other states, he wouldn't be allowed to vote this fall, as he seeks to unseat president biden. but trump was convicted in new york, a democrat run state, where felon laws are more lenient. under florida laws, residents lose their ability to vote in florida only if they are barred from voting in the state where they committed their offenses n. new york, where trump was convicted, felons are barred from voting only while they are incarcerated. earlier today, the convict returned to the scene of the crime, trump tower, where he and david pecker, michael cohen hatched that plan to suppress stories that could have endangered his standing with voters ahead of the 2016 election. the ex-president predictively ranted and raved saying he will appeal. he attacked witness michael cohen, a potential violation of the gag order, which is still in place. he also attacked the judge, judge juan merchan, who literally holds trump's fate in his hands. the judge set to sentence the ex-president on july 11th, just four days ahead of the start of the republican convention. republicans will nominate donald trump for a third time. one complicating factor, the fact that he is running for president in no small part because he sees taking the white house as a way out of his legal challenges. even that is not a way out for trump in this case. "new york times" reports this, quote, the proceedings will continue even if he wins because it's a state case, not federal. trump would have no power as president to pardon himself. it's all part of how the american system of justice works, according to president joe biden. here's what he had to say about the verdict. >> donald trump was given every opportunity to defend himself -- it was a state case, not a federal case -- and was heard by a jury of 12 citizens, 12 americans, 12 people like you. like millions of americans who served on juries, this jury is chosen the same way every jury in america is chosen. it was a process that donald trump's attorney was part of. the jury heard five weeks of evidence -- five weeks. and after careful deliberation, the jury reached a unanimous verdict. it's reckless. it's dangerous. it's irresponsible for anyone to say this was rigged just because they don't like the verdict. our justice system has endured for nearly 250 years. and it literally is the cornerstone of america, our justice system, a justice system that should be respected. and we should never allow anyone to tear it down. it's as simple as that. that's america. that's who we are. and that's who we'll always be, god willing. >> the aftermath of the trump election interference hush money trial ending in the first ever conviction of a former american president, is where we begin today, with some of our favorite reporters and friends. they have been with us since the start of this trial. andrew weissman is here. nbc news correspondent vaughn hillyard joins us at the table today. "new york times" investigative reporter suzanne craig is back with us. and former u.s. attorney, former deputy assistant attorney general harry lipman is here. vaughn, it strikes me that joe biden said that, as someone whose son is currently embroiled in the federal criminal justice system. he's not someone, and they're not a family, who isn't also facing accountability. the difference between the bidens and the trumps is that one of them seems willing to accept and live with the rule of law and the other is actively running as president against it. >> his own son's trial is beginning next week. a democratic u.s. senator is in the midst of a trial. and democratic congressman just got issued an indictment as well. that is the department of justice at work under the biden administration. and for joe biden, who has kept his remarks about this trial to a minimum throughout this -- when kelly o'donnell, our colleague over at the white house upon him walking away, asked him about donald trump's assertion today at trump tower that it was the biden doj, it was biden directing this that led to the 34 convictions, what his response was, he just turned and gave a grin. this is the difficulty here when there is 300 million americans onlooking and you have one man who spews out what are falsehoods and lies. and he may very well have the right to this appeal, right? and he may very well have legitimate grievances. but there's so many other things that he says. and on the other side of that, you have a president of the united states, joe biden, who is his opponent five months from now in the white house general election, who is in so many ways restricted on what he says, other than calling on americans to trust the rule of law that has been implemented in this country for more than 250 years. >> let's go back to the moment we were all on air together, my executive producer said in my ear -- i don't know that he intended for me to say it on the air. and i blurted out, there's a verdict. vaughn, can you take me back to that moment? what did you know? >> i knew that there was a verdict. >> i didn't know anything else. >> i didn't know anything else. that's when we got the note it would be 30 minutes from then. that was the question. it was going to be up to that foreman to ultimately deliver what everybody had agreed on, those 12 jurors unanimously. it wasn't until, i think andrew jumped in, when you were the one not so careful to read tea leaves, you said the quickness they came back led you to believe this was going in a certain direction. so, you informed me in realtime as well. >> it just seemed clear to me, especially because they said they needed 30 minutes, to fill out forms, that they had to have had some guilty verdicts. and i knew from being a prosecutor, all you really need is one. so, that was going to -- that note was a very good note. the surprise was it turned out that -- it's hard to see why it took them 30 minutes, because i thought it seemed unlikely that it would be all acquittals or all convictions. it turns out the 30 minutes is probably for some other reason. you know, if i had to guess, i would say security concerns. because this is an unusual case. secret service would need to be involve. the nypd could be involved because of transportation, of the jurors, the alternate jurors. it just seems like a normal aspect and something i've seen happen. that's pure speculation. but it obviously was incredibly dramatic moment. i would say that just to, you know, the political hands of this, where you have donald trump running on, sort of -- just like the election, i really won that. this is a trial. i really won this. it's just like, this was unfair, so the election is rigged. the trial is rigged. for those of us who have been in court -- so, i'm looking at these three people who have been there every day -- this is the downside of it not being televised or not at least having audio. my biggest first reaction that moment i first went to court was the judge was so impressive. i couldn't believe how calm and dispassionate he was about everything. ch and you just had this idea, this presence, of an adult in the room. and that was what kept everything so in control. >> well, that's what trump's chafing against. i mean, he was an adult who was extraordinarily even-handed and fair, issuing objections during stormy daniels' testimony ahead of trump's legal team and then sustaining them on their behalf. and his slash points of anger were against todd blanche in the opening statements, against robert costello. i mean, you can sort of count them on one hand. >> well, it was about propriety, the idea that this is a courtroom, and it's a place where facts and law and respect for the rule of law matters. and he could put aside all of the attacks on him, on the jurors, on this family, and understand that his oath of office -- you know, something i don't think donald trump will ever understand, which is that people act out of principle and they're not transactional beings and that people actually understand this is nothing to do with politics or money. >> right. >> it just has to do with the principles. and such a contrast of where we are in the country. >> yeah. >> and it works. if i may, we applauded the court officers and nypd as they left the scene last night because there was concern -- >> the reporters did? >> the reporters did. without having an overly aggressive footprint, they secured that area. >> it was incredible. >> it was incredible. and folks were continuing to walk and bike and drive down the street, center street. there was the first amendment park, where there were folks from both sides that were able to come out and protest. and at no point was there any sense that anybody's first amendment rights were being violated. the officers were there, they were responsive, they were kind. >> they were respectful. we have to -- a lot of us were showing up at 6:00 or 6:30 or earlier in the morning to queue. there were members of the public there, some of them were problematic and arguing and loud and fighting for spots in line. i never heard them once raise their voice. to get us all in, they had to go through two levels of security. and everything moved perfectly. i never heard one raised voice. it was incredible how they ran it. >> have you had a chance to process this, having -- you probably, as a journalist, most familiar with the facts and the documents and just, sort of, your body of reporting intersects probably with this trial more than anyone else. have you processed yet what you witnessed and what the result is? >> i'm still thinking about it actually. i went back to the office today and i'm getting ready for another story on monday morning. it's funny how journalists are like, okay, next. it really is. when you think about the minutiae that we had to listen to to get to this absolutely incredible moment, it is. it, sort of -- i think, though, what strikes me when i think about it -- i'm going to come back to the judge. it was just how he handled it. i saw him first in the criminal trial against the trump organization and just how well he ran that trial. donald trump wasn't there. but to see it on another level. and i thought his moments of anger were so powerful because he reserved them for, i thought, the right moments. that's really, when i'm thinking about it today, i'm thinking about i can't believe we got to the end and it worked. >> and it helped. >> and there wasn't any real incidence. it was really well-run. >> i keep thinking, harry lipman, about the things we were wrong about. people didn't think the 12 jurors would last. they thought maybe we needed more alternates because we'd go through all of them. we didn't go through any of them. people were saying there would be a hung jury. we were saying yesterday in the 4:00 half hour before we knew there was a verdict. that didn't happen. what is your sense -- and i watch probably too much sports analysis, right, the minute that basketball or baseball game ends, you can cite what went wrong. that's just at the team meeting. everyone says, it's a team meeting. maybe trials don't work that way. but what is, sort of, the post-trial analysis? >> a few things. so, i think, to sue's point, it's all true and -- was very impressive. there was something very bare bones, straightforward, homely you would say about the actual process in a dilapidated courtroom that really contrasts with the kind of royal errs that trump has tried to portray, which is taking himself apart from the legal system. the main thing that occurs to me -- it's mainly because we're law guys and we've been at this for a long time. but i found it a really gratifying day. t and i know a lot of people are saying, well, how will the american people process it, et cetera? to me, you know, the rule of law has its place. we don't want it to be all pervasive. we don't want the law to be controlling barbecues and voting and work, et cetera. there's always been this latent risk. and we're not out of the woods with it, that somehow people will reject the legal principles that were vindicated. on the other hand, there was a latent risk that the principles themselves wouldn't be vindicated. all the things that everyone said is correct and more of what happened in a hailstorm of trump and speaker of the house, real leaders coming down every day and screaming about this process. and everyone, merchan, but the 12 and the attorneys, kept their head down and just did it in a calm, straightforward way. it was exemplary. but on the other hand, i don't think transcendent. it was better for being just a straightforward, normal criminal law process. and he now, by the way -- there's so many ways we're just beginning to process his change of status. but as a convict, there's going to be so many ways where he's in a grimy system that he has to submit to. and, you know, he's just beginning to understand. >> you know, i think last time i renewed my pass port might have been the last form i filled out where it asked if you're a felon. most people mindlessly check no. he has to check yes. take me through what he can and cannot do now that he's a felon. >> there are certain things like, can he possess a gun? once he is a felon, there is a federal statute that makes it illegal to possess a gun. as you noted, there are issues with respect to his being able to vote. there actually -- if he gets some sort of sentencing at the time he is serving it, that may preclude him from voting with the anomaly of he wants people to vote for him but he will be the one person who may not be able to vote for himself. obviously it depends on what judge merchan does when he sentences him. >> a ban on travel. >> there could be. that's up to the judge. >> that's up to countries. many countries won't permit him to travel to them under their rules. >> wow. >> the other is he's going to submit to a report. there will be a pre-sentence report. and that person is going to ask him everything about hims. he is going to have to answer all sorts of questions about his finances, his background, and writes up -- >> what's the purpose of that? >> so, the judge gets a report. both sides will see it. and it gifs a recommendation as to what the sentence should be. and that is based on a whole series of things. but it includes who is the offender and what are the offense characteristics. so, remorse, recidivism. the judge has to decide kind of fine should be imposed. to do that, you need to know about the financial wherewithal about the defendant. by the way, this is standard for any defendant that there is this process. and he will be subjected to that. and just to be clear, it's because of his conduct. i mean, he -- it's not being imposed on him. this is -- he made the choice. he was given a trial. and the jury found that he did it. so, all of this is something that every defendant who has made a choice, a poor one, and is found guilty is subject to this. >> will the report inform judge merchan's -- whether or not prison time -- >> absolutely, about prison time, about the fine. the judge does not have to follow it, the same way the judge doesn't have to follow the state's recommendation or the defendant's recommendation. and with judge merchan, you can be sure he's going to make his own decision. but all of that is information that he gets. and the reason for having a separate body so it's not just the state or the defense is that there's an arm of the court that is independent that is giving that analysis, so the court doesn't have to worry about is he getting the right information. but it is -- >> all i keep thinking of though is, so what trump is going to show? the guy that told fox news, i hate flippers? or the guy that walks around and takes the mocha test in front of any camera? what trump is going to show up and take this interview? >> happy july 11th. this is the point where every lawyer tells him, go show your remorse. you're a convict. he's not going to. he's going to continue to foment. >> what is the state of acceptance of his fate on trump's part? >> today was evidence of that. i was in the atrium and there was anything but remorse. you know, donald trump -- >> what was it? >> i wouldn't say that this was somebody who was brimming with confidence or enthusiasm or joy. >> he didn't look like that yesterday? >> that is not how i would describe donald trump today. >> was melania there? >> melania was not there. i ivanka ka was not there. eric and laura, they were standing off to the side. look, he was just convicted, you know, less than 24 hours ago, and you didn't see a lineup of republican lawmakers. he was there isolated in front of those elevator doors. it was much different than eight years ago during the transition when i was sitting watching those elevator doors for hours and hours, as he had people go up and meet him and greet him up on the 26th floor. and you see those folks there. we're guessing most of them were trump organization employees based off of the way they were dressed and where they were coming from inside the building. they were the little cheer squad. other than that, it was more than 30 minutes of him referring to the bad people who did this to him, lashing out at michael cohen but not by name. we call 2022 the revenge tour. i don't know what the next five months look like here because this is somebody who has now been sullied repeatedly by the justice system from the e. jean carroll defamation suit here earlier this year, the $350 million penalty coming from the judging engoron in the civil fraud trial. for him, this is just blow after blow here. and this is not someone i'm used to seeing on the campaign trail this morning. >> suzanne, you, again, sort of, sit at this intersection of known fact, right, things that are known to be true because there are documents that attest to them, his taxes, his tax returns, his inherited wealth, his convictions. now his rap sheet someone of those things. >> it's incredible when you think about it. we don't say he's a felon. he's also several times indicted. but this is -- and you think about -- i was just, sort of, processing york's reaction today, not just the papers, get me the papers. the papers, the papers. but just going through the city and just seeing the reaction. i mean, he's a boy from queens, a local man convicted. he's a felon now. he grew up in the city. and just how he has been so rejected by it. i mean, his father was an incredible builder in the outer boroughs. and donald trump grew up with this. this is a city he identifies with. he's at trump tower in manhattan. for this to happen in that town, it was, sort of, rejection. that was part of how i was seeing it. having also, if you look at the new york court system and the incredible trials they have put on and the ability to process this quick i will. this is what new york is known for. it was a definite new york moment. >> a little de niro on the side. i'll give you the last word. i guess my enduring question is, trump went to war with the rule of law last night, right? he's attacking the judge. he's attacking cohen. but he's attacking something bigger. and i think the rule of law was able to fend for itself during a course of the trial. but who fends for it in the aftermath of it? >> it's a great question, but it's a different question is all i want to say. yes, you can see the prospect. and it would be a terrible prospect. it would be a catastrophic prospect that somehow the democratic system deeply rejects this judgment. but that's not what we look to the rule of law for. we look for the rule of law, you know. it's fundamental, as biden says, but not omnipresent. when it's time, it's so important that it be there to respond. and it was. and that wasn't certain, i think -- it hasn't been for a combination of bizarre luck and browbeating and raw power have kept it in doubt. now we are on the other side of it. he is on the other side. and there's going to be scores of ways in which his life is affected as a result. but, look, you know, it's not the final social answer. it's the final legal answer. but if we're a certain kind of society, that there be that answer given with certitude is in and of itself not complete but a really important no-mean feat, i guess i would say. >> and it's news all over the world, to your point. harry lipman, thank you so much for all your coverage. everyone else sticks around. when we come back, we'll talk with another one of our new favorite friends and go to experts on the trial. we turn to him over and over again over the past couple of months. someone who had a front row seat to this case. plus will the guilty conviction be the line in the sand for a small but critical part of the electorate? we'll ask that question. we'll look at whether there are enough voters who are now uncomfortable with the idea of having a criminal in the oval office to make a difference. and to still to come, the now criminally indicted ex-president risking yet another gag order violation in this morning's rant against his former fixer and lawyer michael cohen, arguably the key witness in this historic case against him. michael cohen will be here live on set to talk about all of it, everything, when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. a quick break. don't go anywhere. to tell ♪ ♪ i take once-daily jardiance ♪ ♪ at each day's start! ♪ ♪ as time went on it was easy to see ♪ ♪ i'm lowering my a1c! ♪ jardiance works twenty-four seven in your body to flush out some sugar. and for adults with type 2 diabetes and known heart disease, jardiance can lower the risk of cardiovascular death, too. serious side effects may include ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration that can lead to sudden worsening of kidney function, and genital yeast or urinary tract infections. a rare, life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop jardiance and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this infection ketoacidosis, or an allergic reaction. you may have an increased risk for lower limb loss. call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of infection in your legs or feet. taking jardiance with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. ♪ jardiance is really swell ♪ ♪ the little pill ♪ ♪ with a big story to tell! ♪ joining us at the table once again is the former executive editor with american media inc., special correspondent for "the hollywood reporter." loughlin, we could not finish out the week and this historic news event without bringing you back. i mean, i needed to talk to you when we saw what the four questions were and what the readback requests were. and i was dying to know -- and you actually just answered it in the break. but did you have a sense or gut on how this was heading based on the specific chunks of testimony they wanted read back, especially pecker? >> yes. as soon as we got that note saying they wanted the readback of david pecker, my initial thought was, okay, they've got to a decision on the docs. where they're now trying to get to is the underlying crime, which is the scheme to influence the 2016 election. and they needed to hear david pecker's testimony again, which was, you know, the first witness for a reason. and a month ago, as we were all trying to remember back to them because we've gone through so much since then, and the key indicators were not just that bit of testimony, the bit about the trump tower meeting, but also about karen mcdougal, and the key conversation with david pecker. all those indicators came back to me and my "new york times" piece where ami was at the center of it. leading up to it when i was down in court for the indictment, everyone said stormy daniels, hush money. i said, if stormy is in here, karen mcdougal has to be in the indictment. when i saw the reunion tour, that was when i thought, i've got to write this piece. and i ran into jake, the editor of "the times" that same week and pitched it to him. the thought process was the jury is at that moment and they've decided about the docs and to get the misdemeanor to the felony, they need to confirm this underlying plot. they need to put david pecker and donald trump and cohen all in this conspiracy, and they did. >> trump was convicted on 34 felony counts not because of michael cohen or stormy daniels, who his lawyers savaged, but because of david pecker, who his lawyers did not. what else does david pecker know? why is trump being so nice to him? >> i think david pecker and donald trump's relationship goes back many, many, many years. and while i would love to tell the viewers there's some bombshell vault of documents in boca raton, florida, that i'm about to write a book about, i can't say that's the truth. what i think is an interesting twist about all of this that we've been talking about for weeks and weeks, david pecker who corrupted this media organization, who twisted and turned a tabloid news organization into a criminal enterprise, that the reason we're all here is because of the press, because of the likes o "the wall street journal", the first initial story before the election where the catch and dill phrase comes out for the first time. and no one really noticed it got swallowed up before the election. >> monday before the election. >> and we're all talking about "access hollywood." then the follow-up reporting by the associated press, by "the new york times," by "the new yorker"s. and these news organizations are all competing to land the stormy daniels story. and that really drove it home. these stories kept appearing in different outlets, and prosecutors started noticing. i remember sitting there thinking, okay, now we're at somewhere. this is confirming to me what i always thought when i was there, that something dodgy is going on. i walked out of court. i thought, my golly gosh. i not only have live this. i've survived to tell the tale. and for me, it was a sense of validation that i'm a little bit crazy, not as crazy as my mate said down at the pub when i first was telling them something like this was going on. but it was a nice moment to me when i heard that first guilty and i heard it 34 more times. and i thought to myself, boom. the system worked. judge merchan and his court worked. that jury worked. and it was such a beautiful moment coming out last night. and i just thought, boom. >> i have to say, i met loughlin a few years ago, and i remember going out for drinks with you once. and he was telling me these stories, and you're just like, are you kidding me? it almost didn't make sense. i was, sort of, like, worried about you. >> you thought i was bonkers. >> yeah. no way. >> did trump benefit from all of the other people thinking they're nuts? and i wonder what -- i've likened it to the movie version of the book, "the firm." what is your moment where you go running out and become a source for your own media organization? >> i think one of the defining moments is when -- told me he'd gone out to california, he'd interviewed a woman, she had a credible story about an affair with donald trump and her name was karen mcdougal. i was like, when are we going to run the story? what are we doing? oh, we're not running it. david pecker has purchased this story and has killed it to help donald trump. and i just thought, where am i -- in what world are we doing this? and another series of events in the lead-up to the election involving purchasing of supposed emails that came from telling intelligence that we have to get translated right on the eve of the election and getting that call from "the wall street journal." i just thought, this story needs to be in the public domain. this story needs to be in the public interest. it's days before the election. that's when i walked down to ami. i said, this is a catch and kill. and the reason i used that term is to give me cover because i knew they would be looking for who the source was on the inside. what was interesting is the case that comes out where donald trump and michael cohen says to david pecker, there's someone inside. he said, no, we've got this locked down. we're safe. everything is in the safe that became my foot rest, opened up to give to "the wall street journal." i was panicking at any moment -- could come into my office. >> it's t national inquirer, but you signed to leave. everybody knows what an nda is. that is not only not true. and you work for a news organization. >> a news organization. >> they are the third rail of news organization. to even imagine a news organization trying to gag an employee on the way out the door. >> and i helped as a source behind the scenes. i had publicly broken for "the new york times" magazine. there's a wider conversation. we could have a wider juncture about how -- covered up -- harvey weinstein involvement there, and with donald trump. we've seen how these documents were used to try and muzzle me for the same information that david pecker then went on and testified about. and i just -- you know, i'm still processing all of this. but it's kind of a beautiful moment for me, knowing that david pecker was around the corner and gyllenhaal is in australia now and i'm living my best life. and that nda is going to get framed on the wall. anyone who's under an nda, anyone who's going through what i did, i hope they can get something out of my story where they can come out the other side, they can trust the journalists to tell their story and not feel like they're being suffocated like i was. >> let me ask you one last question about the women. i think karen mcdougal posted something on social media with brandon pharaohs catch and kill in the background. what about the women? they don't really seem to have advocates or voices even on the other side of criminal convictions. >> how brave was stormy daniels to sit through all of that that we were witnessing, as they kept trying to demean her over her work and they kept trying to, you know, just smear her in this constant attack that was going on. and we were sitting there, karen mcdougal equally brave in terms of her telling her story to a couple of different journalists to help get this out there. and again, ndas being used to try and smother their stories. and they became key -- yes, exactly -- key parts of this story to stand up to those documents. and we're more lucky for that. and as we approach this election, i think it's really gratifying to know that the system worked, the court worked, and the fourth estate worked. >> it's great to have you back here. we do have to have that other conversation. the thing i went to bed and, sort of, woke up thinking is, if this is what he did in '16, what's he doing in '24? if this was the conspiracy to keep things out of the press then. trump doesn't have new plays, but he also doesn't change. >> '16 was plot to influence the election through american media. '20 we saw what went on on january 6th. i'm somewhat optimistic with '24 knowing that these systems do work, these people do work. and i think that's one great takeaway to come of this. >> all right. to be continued. everyone sticks around. up next for us, is there a voter out there who will hear the dog whistle that is the guilty conviction of the republican candidate for president and change their vote in november? we'll ask. don't go anywhere. ing ] yes! when the music stops grab any chair, it doesn't matter if it's your outdoor style or not. 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[ speaking minionese ] yippee! and see "despicable me 4" in theaters july 3rd. rated pg. life, diabetes, there's no slowing down. each day is a unique blend of people to see and things to do. that's why you choose glucerna to help manage blood sugar response. uniquely designed with carbsteady. glucerna. bring on the day. what happens if he does get elected and all those charges are -- he's found guilty of? do we want a president that wants to sit there with all the guilty charges against him action possibly going to prison, doing his oath, his duty, while in prison? >> he's going on trial for this and that and this and that. he's really the felon in charge instead of the commander in chief. >> i don't think any person who has gotten close enough to being indicted for a felony should be anywhere near the presidency. it's just embarrassing. >> are we still capable of being embarrassed as a country? that is the question now that donald trump has been found guilty on 34 felony counts in the election interference hush money criminal trial against him. he becomes the first ex-president and presumptive major party nominee to be convicted on felony charges. these are the kinds of voters who could have an outsized impact in november's election. while there's belief that the ex-president's new criminal status could boost him politically with his own base, as they continue to rail against the rule of law in america, the founder of republican voters against trump, sarah longwell, says this of yesterday's voter, quote, it won't be a public opinion earthquake, but in an election where inches matter, this created a new barrier for undecided swing voters. joining our conversation, sarah longwell, back with us. sarah, you were the first person i wanted to talk to once this news, sort of, came through and ended up on the front page with huge banner headlines. and my question is who do you hope sees this? who's still open to news? >> look, the persuadable vote rs, or the swing voters in the 2024 election, are voters who, sort of, don't like either candidate very much. sometimes we call them the double haters or the double doubters or the a -- on both their housers. but they're center right voters. many of them are trump voters but they don't want to vote for trump again. and in fact, just before i came on here, i was listening to a focus group that we're convening right now, as we speak, of two-time trump voter who is rate trump as doing a very bad job. they view him unfavorably. and those are the people who we are trying to persuade to not vote for trump in the 2024 election. and we asked them the impact of this verdict on how they were thinking about voting for trump. and five of the nine said it made them less likely to be willing to vote for trump. one said it made them more likely. and three said it made no difference. so, i haven't done enough focus groups to know how it's going to impact people broadly, but i do take that that sounds about right to me. for these voters who don't like trump very much -- that's the thing about double haters. i always try to remind people at work, we're calling them double haters because they don't like either candidate very much. but they don't hate joe biden. they really hate donald trump. they maybe aren't enthusiastic about joe biden. but donald trump scares them. whenever there's something like this, a verdict where he has been found guilty on 34 counts, he is a felon, that does raise the bar for these voters to say, i don't think i can get there on him. and so -- i'm hearing a lot of analysis that, sort of, dismisses the idea that it would make any difference. and i just think that's wrong. i think, look, i think like i said in that tweet, it's not an inflection point where it's going to change the entire trajectory of the race. but it will have a marginal impact on these marginal swing voters in an election that's going to be decided at the margins. so, i absolutely think that it matters. >> i mean, i think that people are staring at, you know, the wrong part of the portrait, right? they're staring at the people who are willing to go to the capitol on january 6th and, quote, hang mike pence. of course those people are not moved by 34 felony convictions. of course not. but if you're looking at the people you're talking about, the people who used to have trump flags in front of their house, anecdotally the evidence is everywhere that there are a lot fewer trump flags than there were in '20 and '16. can you talk to me about the moment that exists right now in terms of permission structures for the rule of law republicans to say, hey, you know, i'm out? >> so, here's what happened. for a lot of these voters who liked trump, who voted for him twice, their breaking point -- when you make these ads for republican voters against trump, we make these testimonials, the number one reason we hear from people who voted for trump twice and won't vote for him again is because of january 6th. it was a break-glass moment for them. that's when they were out, they were done, it was a red line. but one of the things that's been happening is that as the republican apparatus has continued to down play what happened on january 6th, you're seeing the circling of the wagons. people like nikki haley endorsing donald trump despite condemning what happened on january 6th, despite them understanding that donald trump was refusing to engage in the peaceful transfer of power and even fomenting a coup. they're still going ahead and saying, oh, yeah, we'll take him. so, some of those voters, seeing the entire republican establishment crawl back to trump, they get pulled in that direction too, pulled, sort of, home to the tribe. and what this conviction does is it helps reinforce for the ones who said, no h that was my red line, i'm out, even as they're trying to pull you back in. they say, no, this guy should not be anywhere near the white house. and i'll say the other thing about this trial, i'm glad it's over. i'm obviously glad to see the conviction. i'm glad to see the accountability. but i do think the thing about the trial was that it did keep people looking backwards to some degree. the stormy daniels things have mind a lg time. we need peo years of trump mean. and i think the added element of a convictedon just helps underscore the criminality that hangs over everything that donald trump does and is one of the reasons he has no business being near the white house again. >> sarah, has the biden campaigned reached out to you? and have they asked for your advice and you gave them two pieces of advice, what would it be? >> look, i think my biggest piece of advice is, you need center right surrogates. and you need surrogates in general. i think it's not a secret that joe biden himself is maybe not the strongest messenger. and you need every democrat right now. and at these moments, right, these moments when there is a chance to really hit trump hard, go on offense, you need all of your surrogates flooding the zone out there saying, this guy is a convicted felon. it is unacceptable. the american people don't want a convicted felon. help the american people understand why this is such an important moment. that would be my biggest piece of advice, and especially reaching out to those on the center right. >> we'll continue to turn to you on these big moments. we have to sneak in a quick break. we'll get reaction from the table next. break. we'll get reaction from the table next so this is pickleball? it's basically tennis for babies, but for adults. it should be called wiffle tennis. pickle! yeah, aw! whoo! ♪♪ these guys are intense. we got nothing to worry about. with e*trade from morgan stanley, we're ready for whatever gets served up. dude, you gotta work on your trash talk. i'd rather work on saving for retirement. or college, since you like to get schooled. that's a pretty good burn, right? 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she were to win this election, it would create an unprecedented constitutional crisis. in that situation, we could very well have a sitting president under felony indictment and ultimately a criminal trial. it would grind government to a halt. >> what's your projection? >> i have to take a logical approach to what he's just said, there's no logic to that. that's where i'm going to start. so one of the things that donald trump is saying today is now it's not a rigged election, it's a rigged trial. if he loses, it's rigged. and on the rigged trial, since i'm a nerd and i believe in facts and the rule of law, but just going to facts, what i would say to someone who is saying this is a rigged trial -- let's just take david pecker. this is your friend, this is somebody you have never, ever to this day said is a liar. you have not challenged anything he said. walk me through why this trial is rigged, when david pecker is the government's first witness and you are not saying he's lying when he says under both he had this illegal agreement with you to catch and kill and to foment fake stories of your adversaries. what part of that did not give you due process? what part of that is rigged? then you go to the next witness, hope hicks. it's like the january 6th committee where these are insiders. these are your people. so i know you want to talk about michael cohen, but let's talk about all of these witnesses. this is the jurors' first note, was about david pecker. so just focus on -- i know this is a shock -- the facts, and there is a written record. this is not one where it's debatable. there's a transcript. and so you can put a label on it that says it's rigged, but we all know there is a transcript that disproves that. >> it is going to be a test of not just the durability of his base. i feel like that's the story of the last two cycles, but whether he can grow that base. he can't win with just the base. but can he convince anyone outside of his base that all these people that i loved, that still love him, were part of a rigged trial? >> november 5th is going to be the real verdict day, the american public is going to have the chance to decide. i go back to three weeks after donald trump was inaugurated in 2017 and i went out and began asking voters after michael flynn, who was his national security adviser resigned because he had lied about his communications with the russian ambassador before the inauguration day. i was first having conversations with voters, what do you think about donald trump now? i've had that conversation repeatedly for eight years. what do you think about donald trump taking the word of vladimir putin instead of u.s. intelligence agencies? what do you think about kim jong-un, calling him a friend? what do you think about his covid response, the january 6th attack? what do you think about the classified documents? i can't tell you how many times i've had this conversation with the voters. this time it's different, there are 34 felony counts. we are going to get that answer in our conversations with voters. what is the elasticity of the united states today, because we have pressure tested it for eight years now and it has hit at the conscience of the american people and the conversations that are happening in communities around this country. how far will that go? that is going to be the conversation of the summer of 2024. >> andrew, ron, sue, not just for today, but for every day of this trial, it was a pleasure and a privilege to sit here with you guys for your ability to think on your feet and report from where you were standing, bringing your wealth of knowledge and turning your private struggles inside-out for our viewers. this is your chair forever for any story, forever and always. thank you so much. >> it's all of our privilege. >> what were the odds this was going to happen? there's still a ton to get to in our second hour. only halfway done. get your phones out. we want to remind you about this. for more on donald trump's guilty conviction and what comes next and the other investigations into him, along with all of the legal stories we cover right here, sign up for the deadline legal newsletter for expert analysis. just scan the qr code on your screen right now to have it delivered straight to your in box. next with michael cohen live here on set starts after a quick break. don't go anywhere. is the #1 prescribed pill to treat plaque psoriasis. otezla can help you get clearer skin. don't use otezla if you're allergic to it. serious allergic reactions can happen. otezla may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting. some people taking otezla had depression, suicidal thoughts, or weight loss. upper respiratory tract infection and headache may occur. live in the moment. ask your doctor about otezla. when we say it'll be on time, they expect it to be on time. turn shipping to your advantage. keep those expectations with reliable ground shipping. thanks brandon. with usps ground advantage®. ♪♪ last fall, i pled guilty in federal court to felonies for the benefit of, at the direction of, and in coordination with individual number one. and for the record, individual number one is president donald j. trump. i have lied, but i am not a liar. and i have done bad things, but i am not a bad man. i have fixed things, but i am no longer your fixer, mr. trump. i'm going to prison and have shattered the safety and security that i tried so hard to provide for my family. >> hi, again, everybody. it's new 5:00 in new york. until yesterday, the only person having to pay the legal consequences for interfering in the 2016 election with the illegal cover-up of hush money payments made to porn star stormy daniels was that man, michael cohen. cohen went to prison for what you heard him describe, crimes that benefitted and were directed by individual one, donald trump. it's no longer the case. now individual one has been convicted by a jury of his peers. yesterday's dramatic and consequential verdict in the election interference hush money case came down swiftly and decisively. donald trump was found guilty on all 34 felony counts. michael cohen's former boss is now the first ex-president to be convicted of a crime for which he will be sentenced on july 11th. michael cohen paid the hush money to help donald trump in the final days of the 2016 campaign. michael cohen was the one who was later repaid in installments, 12 of them, with some checks signed by donald trump himself from the oval office. michael cohen was the one who tied trump directly to those payments. he was also the one who has been attacked repeatedly by donald trump and donald trump's legal team. the ending of donald trump attorney todd blanche's closing argument went like this, quote, you cannot send someone to prison, you cannot convict somebody based upon the words of michael cohen. but that's not what this case was at all. it wasn't just michael cohen's word or testimony. he was the prosecution's star witness, but the state built a meticulous case with documents and multiple witnesses and multiple pieces of evidence. michael cohen spoke about that last night when he joined all of us soon after the verdict was announced. >> what ultimately was demonstrated was the fact that all of the testimony by the other witnesses that i had involvement with corroborated what i had been saying for six years, and all of the evidence, the documentary evidence, emails, text messages, documents themselves, again, corroborated what i've been saying for six years. >> six years. just stop for a second. close your eyes and remember what you were doing six years ago. six years. today marks nine years to the day that donald trump descended those golden escalators to announce his run for the presidency. he stood there again this morning in trump tower as a man now convicted of felony charges. this morning he railed against the justice system that has finally held him accountable. he acknowledged he's still under a gag order, but trump did go after michael cohen. >> by the way, this was a highly qualified lawyer. i'm not allowed to use his name because of the gag order. but he's a sleaze bag. everybody knows that. took me a while to find out. but he was effective. but he wasn't a fixer, he was a lawyer. he wasn't a fixer, he was a lawyer. >> you say tomato, i say tomato. the conviction is where we begin this hour with his former lawyer and fixer, michael cohen. the host of the mea culpa podcast and revenge, how donald trump weaponized the department of justice against his critics. how are you doing? >> hanging in there. i had the pleasure of watching the press conference today. i was wondering whether or not that gag order was still actually in place, because once again, donald just violated -- he doesn't care with the law, he doesn't care about anything other than venting like a petulant child. and the interesting thing is nothing that he said was true. mary trump said it best yesterday, he's now unhinged, and to listen to the rambling, meandering, just like todd blanche during his cross-examination, that rambling, meandering sort of non-thought thought, that's all that he did. i think he embarrassed himself not just in front of the folks that were working at the trump organization that were there filling the spaces, but he's also embarrassing himself in front of anyone that was watching. he accomplished nothing with that. zero. >> what do you want now? do you want closure, do you want to move on? do you want to never see or hear his name again? what do you want? >> unfortunately, what i want i don't think i'll ever attain. i want peace. you can't have peace when donald trump is around, because one of the things he talks about in many of his books, it's a common theme, if you hit him and it's in his mind that he's being hit, he needs to strike back at you ten times harder. he needs to hurt you ten times harder. and so long as the two of us exist on this planet at the same time, he will constantly seek to hurt me, and i will never be a punching bag to donald trump or anyone. >> what do you think he's feeling right now? >> i think he's incredibly unnerved, he's not 100% sure what's actually going on, and that's the part that's really scaring him the most. nobody is telling him the truth, so, donald, if you're watching, here's the truth. the truth is, you're in trouble. the second truth is that you will be found guilty. now, whether or not you end up doing any time behind bars, you've heard me say this before, which is i would prefer you not to be. and not because you don't deserve it, but rather because you possess secrets, you possess national security information that puts the rest of us at risk. and i don't trust you with that information behind bars, believing that you would sell that information for a bag of tuna or a book of stamps. and that's my biggest concern. so a home confinement scenario would be just fine the way i see it. and i believe that judge -- the judge is even-keeled, respectful of the process, something donald trump is not. i believe that he will make the right decision, and the right decision will be not just for donald, but for respect to the office of the presidency. >> that he once held or that he's seeking? >> that he once held. >> what is going to happen to donald trump now? >> look, i'm not a prognosticator, though i've been pretty good at it so far to pat myself on the shoulder, if i may. i think donald loses and i think he loses by a landslide, while a lot of people may right now openly claim that they're supporting trump, i think when you're standing in the voting booth and you say to yourself, can i really vote for a guy who is a convicted felon, who has already been charged with assault, in fact, rape, can you go with somebody who is absolutely unhinged and says the wild and crazy and stupid things that this man says? can you really put america in that position, whether it's adversaries or allies, with foreign dignitaries, where he will disrespect anyone. he will do anything so long as it benefits him. he will sell, as i believe that he has already done, shown, top secret documents to adversaries or to folks who have no right to see those documents. we know that. the austrailian billionaire at mar-a-lago. the fact that the guy is a billionaire doesn't give him rights that you and i do not have. he did not have the right to see those documents. but donald starting waving them around like they were a comic book or some -- just random piece of paper. they are not. they are secrets that put american servicepersons in harm's way. one was about a nuclear sub and how many nuclear warheads are on that specific vessel. are you crazy? i mean, who tells anybody that? it makes no sense. how about the fact that during helsinki he had no representative with him and he was talking to vladimir putin, a kgb agent, who is so much smarter than him, with putin's translator. and he's just randomly talking. you know, the problem with donald trump when he talks, he says things. and that's the danger. >> he thought you would act differently, i think, on the stand. and i accept all the analysis that suggests that he was sort of quarterbacking his own criminal defense here. >> todd blanche said it himself yesterday. talk about now an attorney throwing his client under the bus. do you really think that donald trump didn't actually coordinate the strategy of this defense? well, by the way, as i called last night, i called todd blanche the stupidest lawyer on the planet of all time. he is. how do you as a competent attorney -- maybe incompetent in this case, allow your client to dictate to you a strategy of a defense, when your client, not only is he unhinged, he's not a lawyer. he doesn't know how to set up a proper strategy. >> he allowed you to set up a criminal conspiracy to influence the 2016 election. how does it happen? >> you end up doing things because donald trump directs you to do it. he tasks you to do things, and you do it. mind you, i didn't do it on my own. i did it in coordination with him, with allen weisselberg, with david pecker, hope hicks, and a multitude of other people as well. i wasn't alone. nobody else had the money to do it. >> are you surprised there's still people doing things? >> i'm blown away. i used mark meadows as the example from last night, and there's 100 others that are willing to fall onto the sword for a guy who doesn't understand what the word "loyalty" is. i said this in my books. he's like 1st avenue, one way. there's only one way with donald trump when it comes to loyalty. and why people haven't seen -- look at rudy giuliani, look at john eastman, look at janet ellis, look at myself, look at mark meadows. look at dozens of people who are now criminally indicted, all for what? so that donald trump could come back to the white house, so that he could grift off the american people and allow his family to grift off the american people? >> let's talk about your testimony, because i think that -- and i've said this to you, i think the frame around it in the media was really shallow and i don't think it meshes with what the jury experienced with you. i think you went in there and you told them about your journey. you spoke in a really nuanced way with some affection about some of the earliest years where you worked for the trump organization. you said you had some incredible experiences. >> i enjoyed my time with donald and with my colleagues. there were incredible learning experiences, there were projects that i never would have had a chance -- i talked about it, i had an opportunity as soon as i started there, i was able to work on creating a 1,000 acre landfill remediation project. i learned things about how to create a passive methane gas collection system, and i learned it with my friends that were colleagues of mine at the trump organization. we figured it out. we didn't have anybody instructing us. and that challenge to me was extremely enticing. then he placed me on the board. it was donald, allen weisselberg and myself, three convicts, could you imagine? >> that's incredible. >> the three of us. >> so what do you think it was about your strategy, and you were on with us last night with your lawyer -- what was the strategy of telling the whole story? you didn't just come in there and start whacking at donald trump. you told a story that i don't know if everyone in the american media was heard, about really when you were offered the job, you told the story you didn't go back to your old office. you just started right away. you didn't offer the sort of -- the political hits that sometimes people get on shows like this. you told a fuller story. and i wonder what you think is value was of that in terms of the jury. >> so i think alvin bragg, susan hoffinger and josh steinglass, i think they laid out the strategy for a conviction brilliantly. absolutely brilliant. do you know how many pundits even on your show came back, michael cohen is going to go in the middle. there's 20 witnesses, he'll be right the eighth, ninth. >> we didn't say that. >> other nbc shows and other channels as well. oh, he's going to go in the middle. you don't want him at the beginning, the end. he's a flawed character witness and all of that. great, great analysis, you're wrong. >> was it hard to listen to? >> very much so. i really shut off my television, i shut off my social media. and the reason that i did it is because listening, it just didn't make any sense at all. their strategy, which, again, i believe was brilliant, put the 19 other witnesses before. let them tell the story. let them corroborate all the information in advance so that it's not the first time the jury is hearing the story. and then you bring in michael cohen at the end. and i said this on the weekend with alicia menendez, and i said to them, all the witnesses are key witnesses. i'm just the narrater of the story, and i'm going to bring the whole thing home. i'm pretty good at telling a story. and that's what we did. they laid out all of the information, all the key pieces of information that was necessary in order to take the charges and put them together and demonstrate to the jury that a crime has been committed here. it went from misdemeanor to a felony, simply by meshing them together with the campaign finance and then the business records. now, the fact is that the media calls it the hush money trial case and so on, and i hate that. >> we don't. >> i know. i'm never referring to you. >> we'll give you time to vent against the media at the end, i promise. let me ask you about the evidence that you helped sort of tour guide the jury through, because -- and i said this as i watched the first 18 prosecution witnesses come up. i wondered out loud if in your 2 trips down to d.a. bragg's office, did you point them to documents, did you point them to other people in the room? did you aid them in your testimony in those 25 meetings, i wasn't the only one, pecker was there and hope hicks was there? >> so i can't take the credit for directing, but i will take the credit for providing the information. they would take a document -- and, again, they asked me for my two cell phones. one of them i knew where it was, the other i had to find. i turned it over to them. and i want people to think for a second, would you let anybody just mirror your entire cell phone? there are things that you say to your friends that you probably shouldn't, there are things that come to your emails and text messages. everybody has got skeletons. i didn't care, because accountability and the protection of our democracy was worth whatever stupid embarrassment could possibly come out of a ridiculous email or something like that. and i turned it over to them willingly, and i signed it. i gave them the pass codes and i said knock yourselves out. with that, they scoured through a million documents. they were, like, huh, we don't understand this. can you walk us through this? >> what's an example of that? >> so allen weisselberg with the document, i explained to them there's a document that's out there, i gave to allen weisselberg because he asked for it, the account, the transfer. >> is that the wire transfer? >> 36, 35 and 36, right. now, 36, which was the jeff mcconney, i never saw that until the trial. the 35 was mine. i was, like, let me explain this to you. that's the one to the left. >> so you pulled that out? >> i didn't pull it out. they managed to get it and i believe they got it as a result of a subpoena to the trump organization for that document. i don't believe i had that. >> and then you explained it to them and you told them -- >> i said, let me walk you through the chicken scratch that's allen weisselberg's handwriting. i said, if you notice, there's a w on it. he actually initialled it. that shows how much each month and there's aw. i explained to them. and with that, they were able to build a story about the payment, the reason for the payment, how i was going to be reimbursed back my money. they want to call it a legal fee, et cetera, et cetera. and then i walked them through, well, jeff is the controller, he basically -- the way i described it to them is donald trump is the bank, allen weisselberg is the branch manager, and jeff is the teller. and i explained it to them and that's how they ended up putting the four together. of course, allen weisselberg is in rikers so he wasn't testifying and he's not going to testify. but they got deborah and they were able to get mcconney as well. >> we're going to take a very short break. we have a million and one other questions for you. we'll try to chip away at them on the other side. don't go anywhere. your shipping manager left to “find themself.” leaving you lost. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching 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[ bird squawks loudly ] to a pet shop. meg's moving company uses t-mobile. so she scaled down her fleet to save money. and don's paying so much for at&t, he's been waiting to update his equipment! there's a smarter way to save. comcast business mobile. you could save up to 70% on your wireless bill. so you don't have to compromise. powering smarter savings. powering possibilities. we're back with michael cohen. i want to ask you about the defense's case, if we call it that. when they put costello on the stand, it seemed insane because it felt like the part of your direct testimony that implicated trump the most was the part about costello, and then they put him up, which allowed the state to go back on cross and ask him -- like, the last thing the jury heard was how trump was trying to pull you into the fold through rudy. as a lawyer, what did you think of that? >> so my road with costello has been one that is fraught with all sorts of crazy controversy and back and forth attacks on one another. bob costello is a dirt bag. say nothing less than that. the fact is, what i realized early on is that he was playing me through rudy. and i realized early on that what he was looking to do is to use me in order to gain or garner more connection with rudy, his friend, and rudy with donald. anything i would say to him would immediately go back to donald, and therefore the fear is that i would cooperate, they would know in advance. it was sending a mole into your house. and i realized it early on. so i always kept him at a distance, but i kept him close enough in order to see what was going on. because i didn't want to be out of the fold. i wanted to know what was going on for my own self. then i realized he was pushing for himself, for donald at my expense, and i was, like, this has to stop. why they put him on is because donald is a myopic thinker. again, when you have somebody like donald running his own strategy of defense, it is a flawed defense. they saw bob costello in congress, and donald liked the way that he acted, the way he attacked me, the way he made stuff up. and, by the way, you want to talk about a perjury charge? the entire thing, unless he wasn't under oath, that i don't know, but donald liked the way that he attacked me. he was, like, we've got to get this guy on. i can see donald saying, we've got to get him on. >> fox celebrating. >> right, you had the trustee and then the gather from gw university law school. this is the issue. so donald is, like, oh my god, this guy is the one who would help us to smash cohen. the flawed defense is the destroy michael cohen defense. that's the mistake they were making. he believed that by destroying me that that would exonerate him from his crimes. and the answer is that's a flawed defense. you don't win your case by trying to damage a non-party subpoenaed witness. you do it based upon your own evidence, of your innocence. that's not what donald is about. he doesn't have it. the nice thing is the 19 other witnesses that came up, they pre-corroborated everything that i had been saying for six years. >> i want to ask you what happens to donald trump now. we learned today that ahead of sentencing he'll have to meet with some sort of official of the court, he'll have to go through things. >> yeah, it's a probation. they do what's called a pre-sentencing report. he's going to meet with someone, they're going to ask him a million and one questions. the part that he's going to have a problem with -- and that's if they treat him the way they treat everyone, myself included, i went through it not once but twice with the unconstitutional remand. what they do is sit you down and they take a full history on you, they force you to urinate in a cup, which you're doing in front of your probation officer, it's in a room that's all mirrored. i'm sure he's going to be very unhappy with that. >> wow. >> yeah. and there's a lot of things that you have to share, including all of your finances, he's going to have to -- yeah, his is significantly more complicated than the average. it's not the only one of its kind. there have been many people with significant money that have gone through the system and they'll obviously put somebody on that's capable of understanding. but all of his freedoms now become limited. if he wants to travel, he's going to have to get a travel authorization request form, and he's going to have to fill it out just like everybody else and wait for the approval process. i'm sure they're going to grant it, just as mine was continuously granted. there's no reason they shouldn't. but he has to surrender his passport, which i believe he's already done that, his firearms, his firearm license, he loses that. there's a lot of your liberties. now, the question becomes whether or not he's going to be treated, again, like in the banking world. is he going to lose, as i did the banking relationships? i don't know. he's friendly with jamie dimon of chase. will jamie dimon go to bat and risk the reputation of chase or any of the others, like allegedly he's got millions at like a morgan stanley account. will he lose it like every other person, or are they going to give him some sort of special dispensation? >> what do you think he does with this experience in terms of the rage and betrayal he directs toward his perceived political enemies? >> he's already made that crystal clear. he wants to be what he claims is the country's retribution. he wants to be their force. he's not talking about for anybody else other than himself. one of the things that he said, for example, he wants to go after the president of msnbc. he wants to use seal team 6. it sounds so hyperbolic, like handmaid's tale. >> his supporters don't believe him. >> if you're not going to believe what he's saying, how could you believe anything anybody else is going to say? these aren't michael cohen's words, these are donald trump's words telling you on day number one he wants to rewrite the constitution. he wants to confer all power to himself. he wants to use seal team 6 to go after his enemies. he wants to throw everybody in gitmo. no, you can't throw american citizens in gitmo. it's not permitted. but it is under a donald trump regime. >> how does he look to you? does he look the same as he did? >> no, he looks deflated. i don't know if that's the ozempic or just the stress that's getting to him. but whatever it is, he does not look healthy, he looks, as he should right now. he's concerned, the anxiety has got to be getting to him. i remember when, right after i pled and i had 60 days within which to report, i remember as you get closer to that 60 days, the anxiety builds up because you realize, hey, this is coming. and he knows july 11th, he knows he's in trouble. he knows that you don't get 34 guilty counts against you and then you end up getting a slap on the wrist and you're only allowed one mar-a-lago burger and not two. no ice cream for a month. that's not how it works. >> when you were in solitary, did you -- >> which time? >> the first time, the 51 days. >> first it was 35 and then another 16. >> did you think, did you hope, did you contemplate that there would ever be accountability around this set of facts for donald trump? >> when you're in solitary confinement, unfortunately, you live within your own head. and nobody, nobody wants to live in their own head. it's a very dangerous place to be. i wasn't thinking about donald trump, i wasn't thinking about accountability. i wasn't thinking about anything other than not being there, regardless on how you end up not being there. it's a very sad, sad place. it's lonely. you're keeping yourself occupied. i read a lot. i read 97 books. in fact, there's two shows on books, the gentleman in moscow i read. >> i read that. >> and the tattooist of auschwitz, i read those while i was in solitary as well. very good shows. >> what do you mean you thought about not being there? not being on this planet? >> yeah, it's painful. solitary confinement is painful. and the worst part for me, what made it even harder, when i first was put in there, it was for 14 days. >> why were you put in solitary? >> because of covid and they had to make sure that you were covid-free before they released you to your family and it was a 14-day incubation period. a bunch of my fellow inmates were making calls to their families for arrangements to be picked up the next day, but not me. and all of a sudden, the camp administrator shows up and they unlock the door, and he tells me you're not going home tomorrow. i said, why not? well, it turns out that washington pulled my medical file and said that they want to review it. i said, but everybody else is leaving, why my medical file? well, we don't know why. it's just yours was pulled and you're not leaving until after they end up getting your medical file, despite the fact that -- >> who in washington? >> it was bill barr at the direction of donald trump. and so not knowing when you're leaving -- i said, then i want to go back to the camp. you can't go back to the camp. you just have to stay here. for how long? we don't know yet, but it shouldn't be too long. three more weeks. >> in solitary? >> yeah, that is what they kept me. for 35 days. but not knowing anything. and then my wife and my buddy and a bunch of other people got together, they got my medical records from lennox hill hospital which showed that i have significant respiratory issues as a result of an earlier bout with pulmonary embolus that almost ended my life when i was 39. so i had my pulmonary issues and it's been demonstrated, especially when it was covid, the first round of covid, that people who have issues, pulmonary issues, are more susceptible to death. and so lennox hill, after sending another 179 pages, after 35 days, they finally released me. and that was only as a direct result of the medical staff, the medical staff had been advocating for my release from day number one. >> what is the threat environment like for you now today? >> it's the same, but different. instead of being there, where they can affect your life -- i mean, look at what they did. they had my file pulled, they left me in solitary for an undisclosed amount of time, because that's who donald trump is. remember what i said before? if you hit me, i'm going to hit you ten times harder. giving him the power to do that puts everyone at risk, unless you bury your head in the sand and you wait the four years. four with him will become eight and eight will become 12. that's what he wants. >> what do you do if he's re-elected? >> i'm already speaking with relatives to live in another country, my cousins, about finding a home. i mean, i don't want to. this is my life. i have my parents here, i have my siblings, my children, my wife, my in-laws. we all live here. and who wants to leave their country? who wants to renounce their citizenship? so i can't say for certain that i'm going to go, but it's certainly something that i talk about. my father, being a holocaust survivor, i'm supposed to be entitled to a polish consulate. this is going to take 18 months. can we expedite it? i don't think i have 18 months. >> michael cohen, getting to talk to you before this happened really helped us understand and cover the trial as it was under way. but getting to have this conversation on the other side was really great. thank you very much. >> i'm glad you're enjoying it. it's a little painful for me. >> we went deep. will you come back? >> for you, any time. >> okay. >> so good to see you. >> good to see you. when we come back, this moment we've been talking about, this moment for all of us. do we stay, do we go? what happens next? is he re-elected? does the country elect the twice-impeached, four times indicted and now criminally convicted on 34 counts ex-president? our panel will weigh in on that on the other side of a short break. don't go anywhere. so what are all those for? uh, this lets me adjust the base, add more guitar, maybe some drums. -wow. so many choices. -yeah. like schwab. i can get full service wealth management, advice, invest on my own, and trade on thinkorswim. you know carl is the only front man you need. 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(vo) if you have graves' disease, your eye symptoms could mean something more. have a choice in how you invest that gritty feeling can't be brushed away. even a little blurry vision can distort things. and something serious may be behind those itchy eyes. up to 50% of people with graves' could develop a different condition called thyroid eye disease, which should be treated by a different doctor. see an expert. find a t-e-d eye specialist at isitted.com auntie, you can't put that right in the dishwasher. watch me. with cascade platinum plus i have upped my dish game. i just scrape... load... and i'm done. in that dishwasher? in that dishwasher. only platinum plus is packed with more dawn to remove up to 100% of grease and food residue. get the highest standard of clean, even in your machine. clean enough for ya? yeah. scrape, load, done. cascade platinum plus. dare to dish differently. there's nothing wrong with feeling heartened this afternoon about the fact that the rule of law which was tested, really pressure tested, and yesterday after some strain, seemed to hold. encouraging as that may be, we shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking this has been anything other than a bleak, albeit necessary moment in our country's history, one with, as of yet, untold consequences. our institution is already under profound direct threat and now poised to bear the brunt of an all-out assault. one thing is for certain, our nation, our democracy will not ever be the same. joining our conversation, president of the national action network, host of the politics nation broadcast right here on msnbc, the reverend al sharpen -- sharpton and our dear friend john is here. what are you working through in your big brain today? >> well, the thing you said, first of all, nicolle, that your interview was superb, and i congratulate you for it. i'm a student of a good long form interview and you and howard stern are at the top of my list. >> stop. i love howard stern. >> that was a winner. also, happy friday. what am i working through? you said a thing a second ago that i think is really right, and i saw some video yesterday of people -- i understand why they're doing it, people cheering in places when they saw that the verdict was that trump had been convicted. and i understand the feeling, and yet, you know, if you try to step back and think about this from a historical standpoint, the notion that we would ever have found ourselves where people at a sports bar were cheering over an ex-president's conviction on 34 felony counts, you would have thought we had reached a pretty sad place. but, of course, a lot of us thought we had reached a sad place long before this. i agree with you that we have stress tested -- some of the guardrails in our democratic system have broken and some of them are pretty close to breaking. you look at what's happening on the other legal fronts, the fact that our federal judiciary has failed to get donald trump in front of -- to render judgment, whatever judgment, in the january 6th case in washington. that the court in florida is doing what it's doing. the judiciary which held so fast in 2020 is buckling in a lot of ways. so i'm proud that new york's didn't and hasn't. but there's a lot of bad signs out there, because the reality is that the voters of america deserve and deserved to know whether donald trump is guilty of crimes in other areas where he's been indicted. this is a small comfort in the sense that the rule of law held here. but you look around at the other three cases, the idea that we're not going to get to election day, probably, without verdicts in those cases, without hearing those cases in front of a court, is an outrage and a profound disgrace, and there's a lot of blame to go around. but i am heartened that at least in this one case that the system seems to have worked the way it's supposed to work and that a jury of donald trump's peers, people, some of whom are truth social people, some are fox news people, heard the evidence and made a clear and decisive finding. and i think clear is decisive is what you want here. a hung jury would not have been great. even a split decision on a lot of these counts because they're so closely related, would have been confusing. this has clarity to it. the president will go on and appeal. we'll see what the politics are. but there was going to be an outcome that would have a political implication, some significance in our electoral cycle, this was it. now we'll see. >> i was just telling the rev as he sat down, my insides hurt from still being able to be disappointed in the republican party. and i want to get to a point where they no longer can disappoint me. but i was disappointed to see their attacks on the rule of law and vicious attacks on the judge who acted in a way that was overly generous to donald trump. are you still capable of being disappointed and surprised by anything the republicans do? >> having never been a member of the republican party, disappointment is not my thing. i'm still capable of being depressed. and i think the reactions yesterday did not surprise me, only because i had already watched the truly beclowning and outrageous performance of so many people showing up at court, saying all of the same things even before the verdict was rendered. so many of those guys in their red ties and blue suits, missing only the trump fright wig to make the perfect kind of trump halloween costume. the speaker of the house had already shown up outside the courtroom and made an outrageous fool of himself. so they were being consistent yesterday with what their behavior had been like during the course of the trial. if you're asking me am i depressed by it and do i think that the country needs a functional non-corrupt, a party that has some fundamental faith in the rule of law and respect for american judicial institutions, do we need a second party like that to be a healthy democracy? we do. do we have one now? we don't. so i'm depressed as hell about that still every day. >> this was also a new york story. alvin bragg versus donald trump, with judge marchan presiding. >> he's known globally but he was a new york figure. and when i looked at the verdict yesterday, i thought he would get maybe convicted on one or two. i had no idea all 34. i thought about all of the cases we've fought in new york that he never opened his mouth but one time, and that was the central prop case where five young black and brown boys were accused of beating and raping a white woman in central park. and donald trump took out ads in the newspaper to say that these guys ought to be facing the death penalty. and the irony of it, nicolle, is the same criminal court area that we marched for those boys, when many doubted them, is the building he was in to be convicted 34 times. now if he goes to the appeals court, there's five black women judges on the appellate court. so he goes from the central park five to the appellate five black women in robes. so dr. king used to say the arc of the universe is long, but it bends toward justice. >> what do you think he's going through right now? >> i think that he's probably on the verge of just total disbelief and depression. anyone that knew donald trump as i did for 40 years, fighting him, marching, then he would try to be friendly, he always wanted to prove to his father he could be the big businessman his father was. and to have to now look in the mirror and know he's a felon and a failure, that he owes hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars, and the only reason he may not go to jail is on some legal quirk, he's everything his father says he was never going to be. and his father ended up being right. that hurts him. and to think that he would be humiliated, and jackson will be on my show tomorrow, who he called the n word. for a black prosecutor to get this conviction, and he's got to face a black woman in georgia and a black judge in washington, he's going through -- he probably thinks that somebody is going to pinch him and he'll wake up. but he's not going to wake up. it's a real deal, donald. >> while i have both of you here, i want to share with our viewers some sad news we're just learning about since we've been on the air. we've learned that mar on-robinson, the mother of former first lady michelle obama, sadly passed away. she's an incredible person. she moved to washington with the obamas when president obama won. she was a living grandma at the white house during those eight years. robinson would later describe one of her biggest blessings this way, quote, getting to see my granddaughters grow up before my eyes. in the past year, the former first lady announced the opening the white house exhibit in the obama presidential museum will be named in her mother's honor. michelle obama wrote, above all else, my mother gave me non-stop unconditional love in so many ways and fostered a deep sense of confidence in who i was and teaching me how to think for myself, use my own voice and understand my own worth. i simply would not be who i am today without her. in a statement, the former president and first lady and their family said this, quote, marian robinson, our mother-in-law and grandmother, had a way of summing up the truth about wife with a quick phrase that made everyone around her stop and think. her wisdom came off as almost innate, but in reality, it was hard-earned, fashioned by her deep understanding that the world's roughest edges could always be sanded down with a little grace. of course our deepest condolences to the former first lady and the president, the entire family in our thoughts this afternoon. rev, this was so important to michelle obama when president-elect barack obama won. i remember she enlisted former president bush and laura push in helping to persuade her mother to come to washington. it was the foundation of what would become a relationship. >> she was absolutely the anchor to that family. i was honored to go to many of the events when the obamas were there, and she was always there. we would always seek her out and she would always have a general way of dealing with people. she could always tell the phonies from the real people and i remember just two or three years ago when he was former president, and i went to do the in vocation at his 60th birthday at martha's vineyard, i spent time talking to her. she was a solid person that never got swept up in who she had become and who her daughter had become and son-in-law. she was the real deal. if there was an authentic woman in the white house, it was the mother of the first lady, michelle obama's mom. >> it's so hard on a family with little kids, and i know having her there, i think they both felt like that allowed them to do the public service part of their jobs, to have her there. thank you both so much for joining us on a day where we didn't have enough time to talk to either of you. it's great to see both of your faces, thank you. and thanks to all of you from the bottom of your hearts, thank you for letting us into your homes day after day during these historic times with our country. 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