accountable. "new york times" with this, quote -- within hours of a jury finding mr. trump guilty last week, the anger conyield into demands for action. since then, the prominent gop leaders have demanded they use every instrument of power again democrats, included targeted investigations and prosecutors. here step miller puts it -- >> is every house committee controlled by republicans? in every way, it needs to right now with every republican d.a. to start is every donor off the sidelines and in the game, the rich guys, the wealthy guys? everything facet of republican party politics and power has to be used right-to-now to go toe to toe with marxism and beat these -- >> why do you have to talk to jesse waters that way? maybe he knows. i don't know. echoes miller's tirade, trump's comrades in arms in the january 6th bannon said in a text message to the times on tuesday that now is the moment for obscure republican prosecutors around the country to make a name for themselves by prosecuting democrats. there are dozens who need to seize the day and own this moment in history, bannon wrote. threats of revenge from trump and his allies are, of course, nothing new. it's the oldest story. king trump has calling for hillary clinton to be investigated for decades. it's all part of trump's brand and political movement. it's a centerpiece of his 2024 presidential campaign built around a politician whose instinctssh those of a mob boss, not anything reassembly a public servant. we should pay attention. "new york times" writs, quote, the intensity of anger and open desire for using the justice system against democrats after the verdict surpasses any seen before. what is different now is the range of republicans saying retaliation is necessary and are no longer cloaking their intend. plans are being -- the guys that appear in court, the red tie brigade. speaker mike johnson is planning on punishing doj. jim jordan is proposes barring federal funds to going from alvin bragg or fanni willis. all of it in terms service of the game who had sex with a important star and tried to cover it up. he's made it crystal clear this is his vision for rehave been. last night his viewssh watch. >> wouldn't it be terrible to throw the president's wife and the former secretary of state -- think of it -- the former secretary of state -- the president's wife into jail? wouldn't that be a terrible thing? but they want to do it. so, you know, it's a terrible, terrible path that they're leading us to, and it's very possible that it's going to have to happen to them. >> donald trump and the maga movement plotting to take a wrecking ball to reflect the rule of law in america in the ways of the ex-president being held criminally accountable is where we begin into, host of "the bulwark" podcast is back. andrew weissmann is back. >> john heilemann is here, and misincreases national security contributor mike schmidt is back with us at the table. mike schmidt, i remember one of the first time i read about how much trump was trying to do this as president, you wrote a story about efforts of don mcgahn to prosecutor i think hillary clinton, jim comey and maybe others. he was restrained in those years from doing that somewhat. durham unnecessarily investigated a number of people, but this is based on today's times' reporting. this has been turbocharged business his conviction. >> i think if falls into a category of things that he sort of has figured out. he figured out in the last weeks of the presidency, he could do more without the guardrails around, and he would plow directly into if he came back. he's really wanted this to be done -- there's an adeck dote in the mueller report, where he essentially held sessions' job over his head, saying i'm going to get rid of you unless you prosecutor hillary clinton, but there were these guardrails. don mcgahn writing a lengthy memo, this is why you cannot do this. this is why it's a terrible idea. they were able to contain trump. obviously, among many other things, if he were to come back, in the same way he talks about his used pardons to free the january 6th rioters, these are things that he would use the government's power proactively to go after enemies. that's different than obstruction. obstruction is a serious thing, it's illegal, but to use the powers of the federal government against an enemy would be a new chapter. >> it's difficult, because i think you look at how 9 presidency ended with the deadly insurrection,y the hanging of mike pence was the end result of the insurrectionists. but what you're saying and i think people sigh when you hear of guardrails, but this is something spchk hespecific, and there were enough people with enough muscle memory, even if it was perfect, they were enough of a rein on him, and you're saying the gig is up -- >> he also wasn't sophisticated enough on how to plow through that. he could plow up to a certain point, but to get beyond beyond don mcgahn or john kelly, he couldn't figure that out, but he's gotten better. we've seen some of that at the end of his presidency. i think you have to take him at his word. >> you know, interesting that you were on the millar investigation, i think people have to think of it as radically as it's being reported. there wouldn't be a jeff sessions -- i mean, no one would last five minutes if they displeased him. jim comey is fired to not letting flynn go. frontline would never be charged. it's such a departure from trump 1.0, and i think there would be areas that would be a lot worse. i think this is one that demands our focus in this moment. >> i think mike has it completely right, that there were people -- particularly at the start of the trump 1.0 administration that just won't be there. jeff sessions, whether you agree or disagree with his political views and what he wanted to do with the department, he understood it to be independent. as we reported in the mueller record, he himself gave the information about what it was that the then president trump wanted him to do with respect to hillary clinton. at that point, they got rid of him, and bill barr was his lackey. that's what would be the scope of a trump 2.0. you don't really have to worry about what would happen. you're seeing it right now. in other words, all of the people who are -- who know much, much better and are going along with this, i keep on sort of using senator collins as an example. she knows damn well that this is fundamentally inconsistent request what it means to be a democracy underle rule of law, and is not saying anything. that is the road to hell for this country. it comes with such poor grace at this moment, when you have the department of justice prosecuting democrats, you have senator menendez on trial right now. you have hunter biden on trial right now. so, you understand why a defendant like defendant donald trump would have this grievance with respect to the un-justice system, but what is so anathema to the rule of low and us remaining as a rule of law company, all of the enables, who don't see themselves as a jeff sessions or a don mcgahn, and are will to be completely implicate with the demise of this country's democracy. larry hogan might have had another effect, focusing the mind of republicans who are not enthusiastic about the country turning into an autocracy. i used to be able to name them. i'm not sure who they are. i might have thrown names out like cornyn. he must, right? andrew named two, one of them is of menendez, the other hunter biden, and alvin bragg's prosecution of donald trump on facts that are barely in dispute by anybody. i haven't siege them. do see anything different out there? >> here's a good frame to think of it, a good way to look at it. the election white, 1 had the 0, we saw the damage that ended up being wrought. the republicans mostly went along with it, mostly. overwhelmingly they did. some didn't. some played half, we'll see. mitch mcconnell didn't really want to talk about it. cheney and adam kinzinger, and then we have the big lie 2.0, that donald trump was convicted because our justice system is rigged. that lie is just as pernicious and just as wrong as the first big lie. this time every single republican is in lockstep with it, every single one. you mentioned larry hogsen, maybe throw mitt romney out there, our maybe susan collins. most of them are very happily going alongy echoing his talking points, going after the jury, going after merrick garland, and going after the fundamental american system of justice. the end game of that is going to be the same end game as big lie 1.0, right? the results is always the same. it's not going to be pretty. we don't know if it's a storming of the capitol or some other time of uprising. if people are told -- if half the country is being told by media outlets and by their politicians a lie about how the justice system is blown and the government is coming for them, some of them are going to fight back. that's just logical. any national security expert, they will tell you that. so, i think that is the most pernicious thing about this, if you look at the republican party as a whole, and compared it to the 2017 era that mike was talking about, how many were resisting trump at some level. and then the big lie, there were fewer, but still some. now there's essentially none. >> i mean, john heilemann, it is the right frame to put around this, and i'm thinking of stephen ayers, the witness who when asked until questioning by the members of the committee, he was there because trump asked him to be there. now his supporters are asking people -- and i want to quote them -- of course bragg should be and will be jailed, steve bannon told us. charlie kirk, a fellow who's going to be talk to get trump tomorrow -- how many republican d.a.s or ags have stones. is that a sin onim for cajones? >> yes. we know from stephen ayers, when these folks speak and present themselves as speaking on behalf of donald trump, his supporters follow. >> well, several things to say here. one great sitting here at the table, with the sleeves rolled up, no jacket on, this is a hard-working reporter. >> i look like a reporter. >> to all of reporter, if you want to know what a hard-working reporter looks, this is mike schmidt. >> you mentioned trump who has all these issues, but there's henry cuellar, just on bribery charges, he a now at at-risk democrat, the supposedly rigged system where biden controls all the indictments, that for some reasons are still targeting -- i'm not saying he shouldn't be indicted, but the federal process is still working. i think it's worth saying, one more think about the example that mike gave and we talked about here. it's a very acute version of trump amnesia. if you went around to a lot of well-educated people, particularly a lot of the republicans who involved their calms with trump and now are drifting back, if you asked them, hey, donald trump said lock her up, put hillary clinton would say, they would say, yeah, he said that during the campaign. as soon as he became president, it doesn't happen. trump says a lot of stuff, and then it doesn't happen. as a political challenge for the biden campaign, and for anybody who cares about the future of democracy, people don't know the story that's contained in the mueller report, even people that follow politics, that trump did not just walk into the office and say, well, now it's time to grow up, i need to -- the campaign trail is one thing, but he went into the oval office, he wanted to do the thing he said he wanted to do over and over again. he said directly to hillary clinton's face that he wanted to do. he went into office and tried to do it. it wasn't like he put it aside, it was stopped. most people don't remember that. as a key political challenge of the broader scale of trying to attack trump amnesia, these very specific things thatted biden campaign, of course you have to listen to steve bannon and others. they have been accurate predictors of what would happen throughout the trump administration, whether in his good graces or out, in or out of the white house. steve bannon, i've had said many times in october of 2020, and publicly on camera on "the circus" and laid out what would half after election day. we'll have fights in the county rooms. this will go all the way to january 20th. we'll put trump in the house of representatives. that's the plan. >> i have one more legal or political question. do i need to sneak in a break? no, keep going? mike, on the legal, i will guess on my own which is strategic and which is being like a hunting dog. between all of the forces, they know that alito and others have talked about the immunity about rogue -- they know they may need to channel not to their base -- their base will go along with anything, but the people that trump needs to win, this sort of vibe that all prosecutions are political. how much of what is already in the water -- how much is that seeded already through the eight years of trump prosecuting hillary and enemies? >> i don't know, but if you play it out, you have this true showdown on the judicial branch. like we have seen the judicial branch get tested, but it would be a whole different thing about how you deal with one of these prosecutions. if they were actually able to come up with it and do it. i think that trump -- his obsession with this issue, was he under investigation and who was going to be investigated? i think because he understood the speccer of investigation, and that is the idea that when someone is under investigation, "new york times" or whoever writes a story that said this person is being investigated, and there are stories, stories, stories that tie them to criminality as an investigation goes on, and it casts a cloud. he had that cloud over him. he wanted to push it onto others, hurt other political. even if there aren't prosecutions, there will be investigation. in the first administration, he got them to do a lot of investigating. 25 months of durham -- >> even if in the final week, they had federal agents chasing down nonsense he's hearing. the specter of investigations on people you will have. >> the smart political money is not on the tedious work of fact checking. to me, it's what kind of country do you want to live? why one let to this deadly insurrection. you really want to see shah show? what, in your view is the message to this country? it's too radical and what is out of step. we were worried about it in the mid terms. you saw the most radical candidates across the board, they went down. part of it was abortion positions, and part of it was the big lie. the preponderance does not think we need to burn the country down. people are not looking for that. their lies, the things we wish joe biden would have done better, they're not radicals, not anarchists. they didn't want the radical overturn of abortion. if you frame everything up like that with joe biden, this guy wants to burn everything down. the downside risk is horrible, unimaginable. there's a nicky hallry type of voter. i more is more, i think. does the contrast change biden's respect for the legal process, and the fact he's not throwing stones at the department of justice, and trump's perspective of burn it all down. her answer yesterday, at least, the story tells itself, but i'll time with you, tim, and say the case needs to be prosecuted. thank you all. when we come back, some political rewards to trump allies who are calling for what we're talking about. the weaponization and politicization of the department of justice. two of them are about to get their hands on some of the most sensitive and classified state secrets our nation possessed. we are at a level 5, break-glass moment to the intelligence community. and donald trump is asking for his gag order to be lifted. prosecutors this afternoon saying, nah,, i don't think so, why they thin the ex-president is still a threat. alps of that and more when we continue after a quick break, don't go anywhere. a quick brea don't go anywhere. you founded your kayak company because you love the ocean- not spreadsheets. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire craig here pays too much for verizon wireless. so he sublet half his real estate office... matching your job description. 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(♪♪) [thud] what tractor supply customers experience is personalized service. made possible by t-mobile for business. with t-mobile's reliable 5g business internet. employees get the information they need instantly. this is how business goes further with t-mobile for business. there's news today from capitol hill which would sound alarm bells for anyone and everyone who cares about our national security. in an effort to please donald trump and hang on to his speakership, speaker mike johnson has appointed scott perry and ronnie jackson to the house committee. perry had his phone seized by the fbi as part of an investigation into his role as one of the chief architects of congress to overturn donald trump's defeat. perry was the first to propagate the empirically proving insane theory, and defied as subpoena from the select committee. then there's ronnie jackson is his name. he was demoted as a rear admiral in the united states navy, who the oath keepers were seeking to protect during the insurrection, because the oath keepers believe he, ronnie jackson had, in the words of an oath keeper, critical data to protect, end quote. one of the committee on the house side that receives the most sensitive national information, information gathered from all over the world, to infirm policymakers who want to protect or national security, our men and women in the military, covert operatives, allies, that committee now has to two new members on it, who have proven that they will put what's good for donald trump over what's going for this country, including on the day of the deadly insurrection. joining our coverage, gerald conry, congressman, this is a story of "what" for me. mike at johnson, speaker of the house couldn't have found two more wingnuts to degrade the intelligence committee as part of the institution for ronnie jackson and scott perry. it's a stunning decision by the speaker, and i think really shows speaker johnson's true colors. he is pandering to the right that makes kevin mccarthy look mod rattle. it's going to make cooperation between counter-intelligence operations and the intelligence services and the congress much more complicated. it's a very bad decision. scott perry seemed to think he was a criminal. let me show you about a presidential pardon? >> i have the transport. she said mr. perry asked for a pardon, too. his cheney said did he talk to you directly? cassidy hutchinson, yes, he did. let me play for that? >> um, so, again, no one is looking for a pardon unless they think they have done something wrong. that person -- and i think we learned a lot over the last eight years, sometimes the greatest threat is a person who can be leveraged, compromised, this person in his own estimation, was asking his president, donald trump, for a pardon. >> yeah, we know, wait too muchd to. as you said, you don't ask for a pardon if you're innocent. the fbi, as you indicated earlier has seized his phone, looking over 1700 communications between scott perry and the white house at the time, the trump white house, and with others. what his involvement, but was directly in the events that unfolded on january 6th remains to be seen. subsequently, he joined forces, in voting to overturn the election. not an appropriate chose, and is feuding with the fbi, and his statements today that accused the existing members of blind obedience in accepting intelligence committee intelligence, and thank god he's been appointed, because he's going to be the one critical voice raising questions, is not only messianic and narcissistic, but what hole does he think he's playing to make the country secure rather than carrying out feud with intelligence agencies with which he has grievances. with respect to ronnie jackson, as you kayed, he was demoted because of heavy, heavy drinking and abusive behavior toward subordinates and staff. he was known as the speed king, handing out speed in the trump white house to keep energy levels high. this is not somebody who would pass a background check to serve on the intelligence committee, let alone the appropriateness of him being appointed by the speaker of the house. this is a very sad dad for the 13we8 gens committee of congress, and it's going to frankly jeopardy dies future cooperation so the branches when it comes to keel intelligence protecting national security. >> congressman, i don't think they would pass a background check to be a staffer on the committee. do i have that right? >> i think that's right. i think they would be thrown out. in fact, i don't think they would even get through a second consideration. it does raise questions, i think about, what is mike johnson doing? you know, democrats felt they owed him in saving his seat. he wouldn't be speaker today. he wouldn't make these appointments but for democratic protect. i wonder how that looks in retrospect. whether it's defending trump, whether it's condemning the results of a free and fair jury of 12 peers, on you now they appointments. i think it gets us insight into who mike johnson is and the inappropriateness of that gentleman sitting in the speaker's chair in the house of representatives. ali vitali mav an answer to the question. what is mike johnson thinking? >> reporter: i asked him for his rationale of the question. that was mine when i saw that this was happening form of course, given the background of scott perry, having his phone seized, messages being looked through right now about his involvement around the january 6th insurrection. in the last few minutes, just in the hallway behind me i caught up with speaker johnson. he said that scott perry has wanted to be on this committee for a while. he's a good american who has served his country and will add a lot to this committee. i also asked johnson about the background of the phone series. johnson told me, in his mind, that was a closed matter behind us. of course, what the congressman is saying here about the concern of that background, and what congressman perry has said, not someone who will blindly following the intelligence and an outspoken critic, along with many other members of the freedom caucus that he once led, that is certainly a concern for people on this committee and who watch it as a pinnacle, guarding national secrets, that happens in the very hallways, the speaker with a full-throated endorsement. >> between jeffrey clarke and scott perry -- didn't seem happy with your response. y -- didn't y with your response i mean, radical, part of a criminal that's been charged by the department of justice in the state of georgia, a criminal effort to overturn a free and fair election, is someone speaker johnson think is a great addition. >> part of a deep bench that they have to add to these committees, and who were added just today. >> ali vitali, thank you for your reporting. congressman, i'll give you the last word. >> well, i believe that speaker johnson and his rationale has done a great disservice for the institution of congress and to the country. i think we have to really frasen our seat belts. these are two individuals that john boehner would have called legislative terrorists, and today speaker johnson, his successor, has propotted to legislative terrorists. >> congressman, thank you for joining us. i have to sneak in a quick break. we'll all be right back. break. we'll all be right back. thanks to you... we're getting bottles back... and we've developed a way to make new ones from 100% recycled plastic. new bottles - made using no new plastic. you'll be seeing more of these bottles in more places. and when we get more of them back... ...we can use less new plastic. see how our bottles are made to be remade. smile! you found it. the feeling of finding psoriasis can't filter out the real you. so go ahead, live unfiltered with the one and only sotyktu, a once-daily pill for moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, and the chance at clear or almost clear skin. it's like the feeling of finding you're so ready for your close-up. or finding you don't have to hide your skin just your background. once-daily sotyktu was proven better, getting more people clearer skin than the leading pill. don't take if you're allergic to sotyktu; serious reactions can occur. sotyktu can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections, cancers including lymphoma, muscle problems, and changes in certain labs have occurred. tell your doctor if you have an infection, liver or kidney problems, high triglycerides, or had a vaccine or plan to. sotyktu is a tyk2 inhibitor. tyk2 is part of the jak family. it's not known if sotyktu has the same risks as jak inhibitors. find what plaque psoriasis has been hiding. there's only one sotyktu, so ask for it by name. so clearly you. sotyktu. -remember when i said we need to screen for colon cancer? 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[both] we'll screen with cologuard and do it my way. cologuard is a one-of-a-kind way to screen for colon cancer that's effective and non-invasive. it's for people 45+ at average risk, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider for me, cologuard. on the same dame that rosen told mr. clarke to stop talking to the white house, representative perry was urging chief of staff mark meadows to elevate clarke within the department of justice. you can now see on the screen behind me a series of text between representative perry and mr. meadows. they show that representative perry requested that mr. clarke be elevated within the department. representative perrys sells mr. meadows, that, mark, just checking in, as time continues to count down. 11 days to january 6th, 25 days to inauguration, we've got to get going. representative perry followed up and says, mark, you should call jeff. i just got off the phone with him, and he explained why the principal deputy won't work, especially with the fbi. they will rue it as not having the authority to enforce what needs to be done. . and they were outed, they were investigated, discovered, and for some reason, there have been no consequences for mr. perry. >> i really can't tell you how damaging it is to our national security to have the politicization of the committee. it's very short-sighted of mike johnson to be doing this. the intelligence committee wants to get, and need to, in order to do proper oversight, needs an open and trusted dialogue with the cia, nsa, fbi, the dni, and also it is required to keep its information secret with no possibility of leaks from within. that is what is needed for our national security. whether it is our intelligence community now feeling that it's going to think twice about what it shares and whether it needs to share certain details and be on the lookout for those kinds of leaks, or currently you're going to have international countries that are going to be much more reticent if they think that this is information that's going to get out in the wild we have to have that trust. the people on those committees have to be adults in the room, and they can engage on politics on all sorts of issues, but not this. i just think this is so incredibly counter-productive with immediate harm to our national security. at the very least, in terms of foreign countries who we need to have that complete trusting relationship with. >> you know, ronnie's jackson's first moment of infamy would say donald trump would live to 200 w. around audacious number to his weight. people can be partisan outside the work on the committee, but they can't lie. i mean, his moment that he ascended what a moment of, you know, unbelievably provable lies. >> completely. i mean, the one way to look at this is say that mike johnson is averageally using these appointments as a political patronage machine, to curry favor from the far right. if we look and pause and examine the seriousness of what took place on january 6th and the days surrounding it, it's more concerning and alarming than that. what's happening is we're seeing people who are supposed to be loyal to the united states, but are in fact loyal to trumpism, not the united states. being appointed to key positions in our government, where they have access to sensitive information, and also potentially leverage over the very government that is investigating them over essentially treason. you know, i do think that just pulling back for a moment when, you know, historians talk about the weaponization of democratic institutions, to be used against democracy, it can get very theoretical, but you have to look at something like this and not think of just like johnson's short-term political interest, but also of the kind of appear -- apparatus than can be very concerning, because ultimately are these institutions going to hold if something happens like this again? >> i think what mara is getting at, it's like a two terr. it gives them political breathing room until mtg freaks out again. >> you know, you had mccabe over here, and how our allies are freaking out, as they assume that donald trump is going to win. as bad as that is, and as much as that's caused a freakout, if -- you know the intel commence, a member of five eyes, the highest level of intelligence gathering, human intelligence, electronic intelligence, and now you know that these two clowns, buff fans, insurrectionists, a guy who ran the white house infirmary in a way that a story that has still not gotten enough attention -- the investigation -- >> we'll do that tomorrow. that is a good story, you're right. and it connects to intel. >> this was a person involved in running the kind of place that in my 20s i looked for on lower east side. >> correct. disspencing bills willy nilly. it's not they're all of the bad you were in five eyes, trying to keep the world safe, you would look at these people, and say you've got to be kidding. there's a reason there's background checks. >> this is why! >> scott perry and -- >> it's horrific. i think just as to say one thing about a speaker. there was a moment when people felt as though because he had done the right thing on ukraine aid, he didn't get a glow about him, but the democrats saved the job for him. but this is this is who we're dealing with, widely overmatched in terms of his capacity to be speaker of the house. he's also someone who is himself one of the leading insurrectionis in the house of representatives. there you go. a quick break for us. we'll also tell you what prosecutors in new york are saying about the threat trump still poses to the criminal case, the witnesses and the jurors in the hush money election interference case. that story is next as well. inte that story is next as well -dad, what's with your toenail? 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the judge is not an idiot. he's thinking about protecting the judicial process for this case and all future cases, and you can't expect witnesses to think they'll be safe or jurors think they'll be safe, it's only until you render a verdict, and by the way, if the defendant doesn't like the verdict, he'll be able to come after you hammer and tong, and so that is the reason i suspect there will be some form of gag order going forward. he may modify it some some ways, but the argument that it shouldn't be in existence at all seemsic, now palpably wrong given this particular defendant's history and megaphone. >> it's the same big theme, liers and delusions. it feels today in today's news cycle like the good guys are outmatched. >> certainly the bad guys are, giving us a pretty vivid demonstration of what they're capable. when he said this, i laughed. imagine being a juror, nose the history of maga people, doxing people, we know the first thing is donald trump will go after the jurors directly, and we know what that provokes in his followership. if you had been promised a juror, you would be sitting there listening to this, going, they're going to lift the gag order? that's bonkers. i will say -- i've said this many times before trump does is either projection or confession that's really the theme of our stories today. they've all been exampled of the right in the maga world, all of them doing the thing they say joe biden and the democrats are doing. they are giddily, and in the future will do. >> you get the last word. >> you have to protect jurors and voters. if we can't do those two things in this moment, you can't ask people to participate in democracy or to trust the process. so, this is a moment to throw everything that democracy has at this man. >> i think it's a great political conversation to have over the next five months. most normal people will get that notice in the mail, it's your time to go to jury duty. trump could fundamentally change what that piece of mail feels like for some people. andrew, mara, john, thank you for being here for the hour. before we go, there's more breaking news from capitol hill. a senate bill to protection access to contraception in ivf has been blocked by republicans. welcome to 2024. just two republicans joined the democrats. coming up next, there are several big rulings from the united states supreme court. at a moment when a few of its members are very mixed up in pretty toxic politics. one of these is our next guest. don't go anywhere. these is ourt don't go anywhere. i'm 65. and really smart later i'm 70-ish. consider an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan from unitedhealthcare. with this type of plan, you'll know upfront about how much your care costs. which makes planning your financial future easier. so call unitedhealthcare today to learn more about the only plans of their kind with the aarp name. and set yourself and your future self up with an aarp medicare supplement plan from unitedhealthcare. 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(vo) new and existing customers get iphone 15 on us when they trade in any iphone. verizon ♪♪ we could go backwards in dobbs, i've had it in my dissent. i'm nol not saying something new. we have taken away a right. we have never done that in our history. mind you, there are days that i've come to my office an announcement of a case and closed my door and cried. there have been those days. and there are likely to be more. an incredibly revealing moment of her own personal vulnerability from one of the nine humans who sits on the united states supreme court. it's now 5:00 in new york. his, everybody. the decisions by the supreme court are of mass ink consequence. there are decisions that forever change the lives of every american, but we have been seeing recently is a striking and deeply disturbing appearance, at least, that politics plays a much bigger role, just ansonia sotomayor warned publicly years ago, questioning whether the court would survive the stench of politics. that stench is knoll in question in the minds of the public, as there's been very many troubling public appearances of political inclinations and leanings by certainly justice of the court, with major decisions before it. justice clarence thomas' wife was directly involved in the events and the missions and ideas that led to the deadly insurrection, and every other element of the crime that today. recent reporting found that two flags flounce by insurrectionists at the american capitol were also flown at two homes flown by justice alito. calling for calls for his recusal from the january 6th cases, he blamed his wife. i suppose one does by saying, quote, my wife is fond of flying flags. i am not. end quote. even chief justice roberts declined to defend his court's credibility. in a letter to senate democrats, a meeting to discuss ethics at the court would raise concerns about the separation of powers. sheldon whitehouse calls the argument ludicrous. i think if you're telling people to pound sand, it's not the appropriate tone. meanwhile, over the next month, a batch of rulings could come out as soon as tomorrow. the consequentially cases with decisions arriving by late june or early july affect former president trump, two on abortion, two on guns, three on the first amendment rights the social media companies, and three on the administrative state. it's fair to start the hour with sheldon whitehouse. you've sort of been a one-man siren, i know, for decades on the trajectory of the supreme court. here we are, a record low number of the american people think the supreme court is doing a good job. even fewer think they are ethical in going about their business. i wanted to ask you about justice sotomayor's very personal note that she sometimes goes back to her office and cries. i think she may not be the only american who reads some of these decisions and goes to their office or room and cries. i think the key point here isn't that she is personally touched and affected by it. the key point is these decisions connect to a terrible pattern of the court, with gifts, trips, tuitions, an epidemic of nondisclosure about the gifts or reasons why recusals should or should not have happened, and then flotillas funded by the billionaires who put these justices on the court, and an appalling following of the front group, even if it means propping the decision up with false fact finding. it's a big problem that the court doesn't seem to recognize beyond a sad, emotional reaction to one of its worst decisions. >> senators, let's unpack some of those items while we have you here. if you rewind the clock, this is something that jack smith asked them to hear, on a schedule that would have allowed a trial before judge chutkan, so the american people could see the facts adjudicated ahead of the election. they rejected that. at donald trump's request, they agreed to hear their a. what are you girding for in that issue? >> i think the worst circumstances would be that the two conflicted justice actually tip the decisions if there's just a dissent of two, it's probably less significant, but if for any reason they are the balance point and they tip the decision a particular direction, given the very obvious conflicts of interests that they have, then i think it becomes really, really dark. the court missed a huge opportunity. it should have been a 9-0 decision right away. the last time a court was leaning into help a republican president get into office was bush v. gore. they decided the case after oral argument. here, months and months have gone by, when it appears to i think most scholars and lawyers, this is an obvious case. this is kind of a slam dunk case. presidents are not above the law. that's not a difficult proposition. the whole spinout of it by this court is red olent of the days of bush v. gore. >> they were able to render judgment in pretty short order. >> yeah, when they want to, these can be quick. it's implies some degree of willfulness about the delay. i think the delay in this case is as significant to the outcome for a second-term president trump as of the actual merits of the decision. if he can delay it, then becoming president, she shuts down the investigation, it's over. that's just as good as having won the case. this is not a matter in which the delay doesn't matter. the delay is the substance. >> senator, the flags that the alitos have thrown at their two homes are flags that any google image serve of january 6th let to the death of multiple law enforcement officials, with the stated objective of hanging mike pence. what do you make of the snub from john roberts in the wake of what should be, in his own view, a crisis of confidence in the court's members? >> there are two things that stand out. the first thing is the court, like when it's proper to recuse is supposed to consider the appearance of bias and impropriority. you may have your excuses what you meant, but if you're attentive to public concern, the appearance of bias has been met by flying that flag over your house while you're ruling on maga and insurrection-related cases. the second thing is we've had to count on the actual description of what took place of justice alito, which appears to be in conflict with corroborated statements. so, it exposes yet again the absence of a proper fact-finding process at the supreme court about these allegations. the justice get to make up their own facts about what took place. those nine individuals are the only ones who get to do that. even president biden had to sit for an interview about the documents in his garage. everybody is amenable to having to maim a statement, an investigation, and the court refuses to apply that fundamental rule of law to itself. >> i've spent an inordinate time trying to figure out what is wrong with them on a leadership level. i wonder how two of nine humans on a body of that much privilege and power could be so be irand so thankless to the nation that gave them that honor, that they would proudly, proudly sort of embrace the symbols of the greatest stain in our country's modern history, right? the first-ever violent transfer of power with the insurrection. do you have a theory of what happened to alito and thomas, they're both married to women who proudly embraced the substance and/or symbols of the insurrection? >> i would be making wild guesses. i think they probably built up a good deal of rancor. when you think of them as right-wing moles, and then they finally have the great day they can do it and let the unlimited dark money flow, and take away abortion rights, and they did shut down the voting rights act, and do all these great things. instead of getting cheers for it, they are criticized, they're thin-skinned and criticized. it's almost like the cicadas have come out after years of sitting in the dark. now they're showing who they were all along, and there's a lot of resentment wrapped up, but they should be able to fix that, still. if they can take rights away for every american to control her future, then by god, they should be able to pass a rule about their own conduct, and also fact finding by 6-3. they're willing to create a dark money empire by a simple majority of 5-4. >> i've been interviewed some of your colleagues, senators blumenthal and other. they seem to articulate a lot of tools available to all of you. do you think that is true? do you feel like there's more that the committee can do? or is this a political issue for the american voters to fix? >> i think it's a mix of things. you know, we have bills that we can pass. the supreme courts bill is already out of committee, waiting on the floor. we have a term limits bill we can pass. investigations are being block added. and showing very peculiar filition by crowe about his yacht, where it's a charter yacht, or a pleasure craft, but he's deduckeding $8 million as if it was a charter. if we can't block subpoena power in the senate by filibuster, then the investigation piece becomes very alive and very healthy. in the meantime, the good old judicial conference, their colleague judges, the chief judges of the circuit courts are cleaning up messes presented to them. so, there's been no sudden dramatic victory, but things are moving, and they're moving in the right direction. i hope, with chief justice roberts' help, they'll move faster under this new pressure. one of the other areas you're investigating, a story that didn't get a lot of attention, but it is his pledge at a fund-raiser to oil expects to give him -- you can raise $1 billion to return me to the white house. in return, he vowed to fix the -- impeached once for quid pro quo, but didn't learn his lesson, i suppose, what is the status of any investigation to that? >> we have letters out, in this case from a finance committee, to the oil industry ceos and participants in that private meeting where the quid pro quo proposal was offered by trump, and we're awaiting their responses. we'll determine how to proceed based on their responses. so tbd, alive and well. we'll stake on it. senator, we are always appreciative to talk to you. we appreciate your clarity and bluntness on all these issues, thank you very much for talking to us. >> thank for having me on. when we come back, our panel is standing by. they'll talk to us about all of this. plus, the republican assault is kicking into high gear five months ahead of the election. what doesn'ts are doing to fight back. later in the hour, just in time for summer, something different for us. our dear friend who covers the story about the assault on democracy is out with a brand-new book on a lighter, more enjoyable topic, on the history of a place so american you will love every page. it changed american music as we know it. it helped spark a miraculous story of the jersey shore. it's a must-read after "deadline: white house" continuing after a quick break. don't go anywhere. break don't go anywhere. de, you gottak on your trash talk. i'd rather work on saving for retirement. or college, since you like to get schooled. that's a pretty good burn, right? 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[ speaking minionese ] yippee! and see "despicable me 4" in theaters july 3rd. rated pg. let's bring in our panel. . mark, i go to you first. >> yeah, look, i think that the senator got it basically right. have two sort of thoughts. first, you have to understand that process is policy. sometimes you say that personnel is policy with government, but at the supreme court, process is policy. for many years we have lamented the shadow docket, a way in which the process by which the supreme court made decisions had profound impacts on the rights of individuals and democracy. now what we have seen is a more troubling development, which is that the scheduling of cases, how quickly the colorado case moved, as you mentioned, how slowly this trump immunity cases has moved has it the practical effect -- to be honest, donald trump has been able to evade the trial in washington, d.c. from going forward, by simply having delay work to his favor. the supreme court has seemingly gone along with that. that's just the reality that the process will have dictated the outcomes. the only thing i wanted to say, on the dobbs point, we point to the fact this was all predictable after dobbs, that the court would lose legitimacy. in 1992, 32 years before dobbs, the supreme court faced the choice to overturn roe. the conservative judges who didn't do so, as you recall, it was justice o'connor, justice kennedy, and justice -- i forget who the third justice was -- decided that they would not take that step. they warned future supreme courts, for a if they overturned roe, it would undermine the legitimacy of the supreme court, but they did it anyway. they have taken further step to undermine it. >> i, you know, it's sort of like coming you've conglomerate. i know what the republicans want voters to believe is that it's all lost, right? there's nothing you can do, and rerelies on this. it's why they have not landed in eight years. they just keep attacking his age. that's the whole thing. what is true. is it nothing that preor deign in nothing is permanent. when you hear justice sotomayor going back to her office and crying, you can put it together for the dire warning, about the stench, her worry that the body would never recover from the stench of politics. that wasn't about being pro-life. that was about the manufacturing a decision and a strategic -- i like senator whitehouse's theory, maybe they had this pent-up wage, when i'm in power, i'll do x, y and z. they can reject all of this and vote the way republicans did for 60 years, of course on this issue, and this issue alone is that where the coalition? >> the democratic coalition i think is very clear that democracy is not destiny, it is something we have to fight for, protect and preserve every single day. i don't think that's a partisan issue when we talk about the majority of the country. i these what we've been seeing and hearing is distraction, distortion and delay. i think that's what was so important by what senator whitehouse was say. donald trump ran on a platform that said, i am going for appoint justices to the supreme court who will overrule roe v. wade, which means i will make political appointments p senator mitch mcconnell helped delivering that by jury-rigging the wars, by ignores alexander hamilton said, he sudden the neutral, the nonbuysed court. that is why, even amongst some conseratives that the supreme court has such a low approval rating. it is because the court system itself is supposed to follow its own precedent. what we're seeing is the politicization of the court. i think what was so important and is so port to the civil rights coalition that i'm fortunate to work with and for, is to say we have to have binding ethics. we have to have structure reform that ensures we go back to a court system working with the judiciary committee that says it benefits all of us, no matter the party, when we have judges and justice says we'll make decisions based on our case law and constitution, and without with regard to political leaders ease desire to stay in power, but make more democracy destined. quote -- career criminals rarely stop unless they're apprehended and punished. sociopaths never develop a content. we don't know the exact details, but we know he's planning for 2024 involving undermining the voters, and he will spare nothing and no one who gets in his way. this is the second time i've asked this question -- what are you girding for? >> i think we need to be very, very eyes wide open about the moment we're in. we now know, based on the jury verdict in new york, that donald trump committed a crime to win the 2016 election. we know, based on reporting and the january 6th commission and what's come out in the public sphere, that donald trump and a number of people around him appear to have committed crimes to try to undermine and overturn the 2020 election. as we repair for to 24, donald trump is plotting his next crime. we may not know what that crime will be, but we know it will involve subverting the outcome of the election. we know it would involve election interference, we know it will involve efforts to prevent the will of the voters from having its day. what do i think it will focus on? i think it will focus on the certification process and the vote counting process. that's where so much of their attention, so much of their ire, so much of their bile, and frankly where they have anchored the big lie since 2020, has been on the fulcrum between the moment the ballot is cast and the moment it is counted. we saw it with fake electors, but also saw it in the efforts to correctly count results, i think that is what we all need to be prepared for, and all need tore prepared for fight against. >> what do we do? he thinking that cheating is what everyone does, and ethical public service is for suckers and losers. he has said all of this out loud. what do we do to protect against that very scenario. >> the first thing we have to do, and i always give you credit for this, nicolle, too many in the elites, in people who think they are on the right side, it is fashionable in their circles as these drink wine, eat hors d'oeuvres to decry partisanship, and that it's alarmism. it's for our leaders of our institutions, including many in the mainstream media, and many in politics to understand and to be clear-eyed about the consequences of that they are wrong and i am right. if they underestimate the threat and the threat is greater, because it is only by the big institutional players have been a clear-eyed approach to the threat, that we can prepare, that we can have our election officials be educated about the threats. we can have lawyers and activists ready to bring litigation and provide accurate voter information. the social immediate would platforms be pressured into taking down disinformation, but it all starts with a consensus that the consequences of election subversion are great enough that we need to treat this threat seriously. maya, your thoughts on the state of readiness from the coalition who would like the country to remain a democracy. >> sitting at the helm of a national collision, working with amazing lawyers within that inclusion outside of it, i can tell you ordinary americans, not-for-profit organizations, lawyers are already banding together to make sure people know and understand what their rights are, make sure returning citizens, know how to make sure they can vote lawfully rather than standing in a line for six hours, and then being prosecuted, all of these things we have seen. we've also made it clear after the trump conviction in new york that we have to stay on top of social media companies to adhoar to the policies they have on the books as well as strengthen them that says, we have to make sure every person who is on these social media platforms understands what is true has a better ability to discern truth. we have seen they get manipulated, but also we have seen foreign actors trying to tell people the wrong information about voting. so, we say don't trust, always verify. it's the social media companies themselves understanding that it's much more important to protect a democracy that enables them to make money. lastly, you know, we have to have politicians, no matter the party, that understand democracy helps everyone. when mike johnson made the statement that the supreme court should intervene because of a jury of his peers in new york found donald trump to be guilty of crimes, 34 to be exact, that's the exact kind of political behavior that destabilizes the country and can potential fuel the very activity and violence we saw on january 6th. it's you to we, the people, and we the coalition of the willing, which is a majority of this country to say, no, you won't, because it's all of our country. we will stand together and protect her. if that remains the case, that remains optimism. when we come back, we'll turn to republicans who are looking to limit who gets to vote. with a convicted felon as their nominee, the assault on votings rights kicks into high gear. that's next. n votings rights kicks into high gear. that's next. now, how about something to put a smile on your face? 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(vo) new and existing customers get iphone 15 on us when they trade in any iphone. verizon these days everyone is staring at screens, scanning the news, and watching their spending. good vision is more important than ever, but so especially now is saving. that's why america's best includes a free eye exam when you buy two pairs of glasses for just $79.95, that's a savings of at least sixty nine bucks. two pairs for $79.95. includes a free exam. that's not just a better deal, it's america's best. book an exam online today at america's best.com. ann, you're on mute. you cannot have a fair and honest election as long as they are mail-in ballots involved. mail-in voter is totally corrupt. get that through your head. i mean, it has to be. if you are mail-in voting, you automatically have fraud. she said once you get rid of mail-in voting -- you know, it's largely corrupt. >> if we have shown you al times he said that, we would be here until 8:40. he's now encouraging for his supporters -- wait for it -- vote by mail. go figure. the disgraced ex-president is now seeking to reinspire confidence in absentee and early voting with his supporters, with a new swamp the vote initiative. maybe he should tell the rnc, because they're still going against the crusade. the rnc fooled a new lawsuit in nevada over that state's procedures. author of the new books that's so wonderful, i don't want to go home, the oral history of the stone pony. mark, if you have any thoughts, we'll get them before you leave. i remember at the beginning of trump's tirade against mail-in voting saying, wait a minute, i'm so old, i remember when republicans only won because of the mail-in vote. it seems that trump finally got the memo and now wants his voters to mail-in vote again? >> i don't believe that's true. remember, a few months ago we were talking about bank your votes, which was the last effort to try to get trump to read off a prompter that favored may-in voting, and now we have swamp your vote. the fact is -- right now, there are 142 voting lawsuits in 37 states. if you look at where the bulk of that litigation right now, it is in mail-in voting. as a matter of fact, i can tell you there are 49 cases pending. i looked to make sure i was up to the minute, 49 cases that deal with mail-in voting. in every one of those cases, the republican party or its allies are on the other side. there's two cases in the last month challenging mail-in voting in nevada. they're opposing it in mississippi. they're opposing drop boxes in wisconsin. you know, so, the truth is, when it comes down to it, donald trump occasionally is told to mouth wordsed likes of what they want him to say. he's a very effective tool that operatives rely on, but he's told his base don't vote by mail. that's become ethos in the big lie, and that's what they're still saying in court. my team is in court fighting those lawsuits, but the rnc and donald trump are on the other side. you have covered and documented in your body of reporting since 2020, sort of a legislative and legal and bully pulpit effort to support the votes, right? all predicated on the big lie and this, you know -- absent of any evident, and even some republicans who don't believe that there's any fraud in georgia, how do you assess the success of that 3 1/2-year project five months ahead of another election. >> it's succeeded in changing voting laws across the country, and they're still changing. governor kent in georgia signed a new law that extends the ability to challenge ballots. the database is used by a lot of far-right groups that are seeking to challenge ballots. >> why did he sign that? there was no fraud in georgia, we all know from all of the trump-supporting republicans. >> and the secretary of skate that is says that. there's an interesting wrinkle. it allows any third-party candy to be on the ballot. there may be some gamesmanship in terms of kennedy. the homeless people in georgia, which is close to 10,000, so they're making it harder for homeless people in georgia to vote, which is already underserved and low-information segment. so, this push is ongoing. when you look -- it's similarly successful. marc has talked about this, too. there's buckets of ballots that would not count. there were 8500 that arrived a few days late due to post office delays, but clearly voted before election day. the law says you can count them. there's other lawsuits in other states that says you could count them. if you're in virginia in 2022, 13,000 came in after the election day. those too could be not counted. it's clearly ongoing. the success is kind of -- >> that was based on what we node, to protect -- >> and the systems that aren't necessarily set up to do that, right? there are post offices that are smudged, and they become a different bucket of ballots. are those going to be counted? do they even get challenged in a different kay? this is an entire sim not built solely for voting. it has its weaknesses. >> we have to do a whole show on the whole buckets. marc, i think we have a sense of the flurry, but we don't get it from nick's side, sort of the approaches they're taking. so put that on your calendar. marc thank you for spending your time. nick sticks around. when we come back, on all of 9 grave threats, nick has managed to write an extraordinary new book on the legendary jersey shore music venue, the stone pony, where bruce springsteen got his start and inspiration. we'll talk about it on the other side of a very short break. don't go anywhere. f a very shork don't go anywhere. 6 known as a loving parent. known for lessons that matter. known for being a free spirit. no one wants to be known for cancer, but a treatment can be. keytruda is known to treat cancer, fda-approved for 17 types of cancer. one of those cancers is advanced nonsquamous, non-small cell lung cancer, where keytruda is approved to be used with certain chemotherapies as your first treatment if you do not have an 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lower limb loss. call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of infection in your legs or feet. taking jardiance with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. ♪♪ jardiance is really swell ♪♪ ♪♪ the little pill with a big story to tell! ♪♪ . we're back with our friend nick, who has written my favorite book that i have read in a long time. i want to ask you about the process, but i have to read a bit of this first. this is something i didn't know. this is sort of the beginning of the book bruce springsteen tells you i was in the surfboard factory. there was a huge water tank next to it, and it was coming, because there was no representation at that low level, and it was just something in the air, something that needed to happen. take this story, and tell me what the story is about. >> the reason i start with bruce describing the race riots in 1970, what that would do to the town, you know, it would decimate it. it would leave it -- it would -- it was a segregated town. it created on the east side white flight. as steve van zandt, it allowed this artistic community to take hold in asbury park. a lot of the jersey shore bars that didn't become the stone pony, would only let you play covers, top 40. stevie van zandt and johnny says, give us your worst night. you take the door, you take the bar, which is a deal for, and you're going to let us do what we want. we're going to do what we want to do so. it made the stone pony where original or different music could be played in a town that was allowing different things to happen. so, it started the scene, and bruce springsteen would come -- he grew up with johnny and stevie, then best friends, as soon as they had this house band, bruce comes up playing for them, and it creates a scene. other bands start coming. it establishing at the stone poppy as the sound of music, rock and roll with horns. it's still soulful, and it's influenced that as bury what it was at that time. >> how did you come to know the stone pony? >> in a very different way. i grew up in basements and legion halls watching punk bands in the '90s. and the warp tour, was, like, the big punk festival. before even festivals were a really big thing, warped was doing it. they came to the back of the stone pony. as a 12 or 13-year-old, my dad took me there and we saw bands like penny wise and less than jake, a far cry from bruce springsteen and south side johnny. the pony started playing those types of music, and it gave music a home. and it was our big stage. until starling ball room opened, this was the only place we could see that type of music. i started coming for that. it had the intoxicating spontaneity that you never knew who was going to be playing with who. you might go see a band -- or just like you're seeing southside johnny -- it's a place that for whatever reason, it's always a surprise. >> how important is it to hang on to the things you love at a time you're covering something so dark? >> it's -- i say, like, the stone pony is my safe haven, but it's also my church. i go to shows there all the time. and there's something reaffirming. there's something life giving when you see live music, and especially in a place like that -- tom morello in the book calls them good ghosts. i think about that all the time. and i think those good ghosts are with me sometimes when it gets hard, dark, or difficult on the day job beat. you can always come back to something like a stone pony. and you never know. it's also nice to have hope. so, there's always hope that maybe bruce will show up. >> people go because maybe bruce will show up. i have worked with a long line of bruce springsteen lovers. brian williams comes to mind, who educated me a little bit about his significance, but i never felt like i could see it and feel it too. from the first pages, you feel like they're talking to you. it's a wonderful read. it's my favorite thing i've read recently. so, thank you for being here to talk about it. in between doing what you can do to save our democracy, pick this up. read "i don't want to go home," the oral history of the stone pony. quick break for us. we'll be right back. pony quick break for us we'll be right back. allowing us to tailor your portfolio. 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