and stamina versus a four timed indicted and lie able for sexual abuse and ex president and his meetings to business leaders reveal a candidate would is more erratic now than ever before, who appears to be in a race against himself to say and do the most incoherent and inexplicable thing. his spewing of lies and delusions presented a unique challenge to anyone trying to talk to him let alone challenge him on the stage and tv. trump is free from a gag order that held him back from smearing witnesses and jurors in the case that resulted in his first ever criminal conviction. hillary clinton, the only own person other than president joe biden who has taken trump on, on a debate stage, said this in a brand-new op-ed in the new york time. it is a waste of time to refute trump's arguments in a normal debate. it is impossible to identify what his arguments are. he started with nonsense and digressed into blather and this is only gotten worse but yet expectations for him is to low, if he doesn't light himself on fire thursday evening? will say he was down right presidential. and he and his allies are trying anything and everything to re-set the expectation game. including lashing out at the debate moderators, floating a baseless conspiracy that joe biden is taking performance enhancing drugs and walking back about joe biden's ability from the debate stage. here is some of that. watch. >> i really think he has to debate. he might as well get did over with. probably should do it early so that he can, you know, because he's not going to get any better. >> i assume he's going to be somebody that will be a worthy debater. i would say so. i think -- i don't want to underestimate him. >> the word is that i'm two points up. i don't know if that is good or bad. how are you two points up to biden. he can't talk, he can't walk. he can't find his way off the stage. can't put two sentences together. although he has agreed to debate. so maybe he knows something. he's going to be so jacked up for those debates. you watch. >> he's sleeping now. because they want to get him good and strong so a little before debate time he gets a shot in the [ bleep ] and then they want to strengthen him up. >> you have to be really steeped in right-wing nonsense to know what any of those jabs pertain to. but there is a way to cut through some of the lies and conspiracy theories and noise. one against hillary clinton writing in "the new york times" this, quote, these ploys will fall flat is president biden is as direct and forceful as he was when engaging republican hecklers in march. the president also has the facts and the truth on his side. he led america's comeback from an a historic health and economic crisis with more than 15 million jobs created so far. with incomes for working families rising and inflation slowing, investments in clean energy and advancement in manufacturing is soaring. the prelude to an unconventional debate in america is where we begin today. former obama campaign manager and political analyst david fluff is here. and political strategist and senior analyst matt gout is here and seasoned expert strategist, liz smith rounds us out. matt, i'm going to start with you. because we did some of this together. preparing candidates who weren't the greatest debaters and playing this game, we should just call it a game, the expectations game is a game not really even with the voters in mind but with the media in mind to help shape that first sentence, the first line of the story, the morning after the debate, or i guess we're so old it happens as the debate is happening. what is your sense of -- of what joe biden should really be focused on today, tomorrow and heading into thursday? >> well you're right, the expectations game is a big part of this. because there my view, what is the most important part of the debate is what voters expectations are of the candidate and the delta that existed between what their expectations are and what happened at the debate. that is most important part of this in the course of this. i mean, if i were joe biden, i think hillary clinton's advice is right on. i don't -- one part i don't agree, i don't think facts actually matter in this election. unfortunately, they don't matter to 44% of the population that we know is already locked in and doesn't care. you could argue with them until your blue in the face and it won't change their minds on something. but to me, the debate joe biden needs to concentrate on three audiences and the three audiences are, one, doing well and being aggressive and showing his energy in that way to motivate the democratic base because think that he still has a point or two to gain by motivating the democratic base through his debate. two, if he is able to confront donald trump and put donald trump back on his heels and i think the structure of the debate with the ability to mute the mic may do that. it might help to demote vat his base. and the 8 to 10% of the country that is swingable, that is all that is left in this country, and i think they are looking not so much for a list of policy things, though i think joe biden will be able to annunciate those. they are looking for questions about his age and his stamina and if he could answer those questions in a debate in june, and i think the timing of this is actually really important, maybe more important than other debates that have happened in years past, because this is the only time they're going to see the two people on stage for the next two or three months. the next debate isn't until september. and so that is why i, one, i think this is going to get the largest audience for a debate but, two, it could set the tone for the next two or three months because if donald trump doesn't do well, there is not another avenue to fix that until september. >> david plouffe, what are your thoughts on this, the day before the day before the debate. >> well, i agree very much with matthew. so i think in many respects biden's central challenge is one of the easier ones we've had in recent memory because it is simply, and this isn't pundits, voter have said in polls, they're not sure he could get through 90 minutes and surprised if he doesn't make mistakes. so if he could be forceful and be strong and not cough up a football, that is going a long wray to assuaging the concerns that voters have. and agree with matthew, this is a huge audience but it is not everybody who is going to vote. so if you're a presidential campaign, there is people who are watching it directly, if that is spin proof people will see it. there are tens of millions of people voting in this election who will only see this through youtube and tiktok and instagram so you have to have good moments that you could put money behind and some of that will be organic. so that is right. and then i think the question for trump is, i don't think he's capable of doing this. but if you were simply to say inflation is too high, the border is out of control, you were better off four years ago and here is what i want to do about it, that is also an easy task. i don't think he's capable of doing that. this is the most important 90 minutes in joe biden's political career. it is one in my view point, one of the most important in recent american political history. because if joe biden doesn't do what he needs to do on thursday, and i think he can, he's a solid debater, i'm not sure that trump will debate on september 10th. so i think this is what you have to -- and listen, i helped prepare joe biden for vice presidential debates and he worked hard and he's a long and loquacious speaker and he could get down to two or three minutes and he connects with the american people. even with the challenging poll numbers, he still has had been edge on people like you and as he talked about the economy and health care and democracy, if he does it through that very authentic lense, i think it could be a good night for him. >> liz, i want to put you on the spot. i actually, i think you're three of the smartest operatives that have done this job and you are still doing this job. you're helping the biden campaign and we want to hear about that. but i disagree. i think if you're talking about health care and jobs, i think you're having a different conversation. people that turned on want to see if you're strong enough. that is it. and i think -- i spent the weekend talking to folks about campaigns. people go with the crazy guy over the guy they don't think is strong enough. and trump is talking about getting a shot -- ass is the word that was bleeped. he accused joe biden is sleeping until he gets a shot in the ass. this makes me wonder what they're shooting in trump's ass. this is not the high kind of debate that people talk about in debates and i wonder how you deal with that. there should be wrestling people in the room. trump is not out there as a serious human being let alone a serious candidate for the presidency. >> right. agree with a lot of what you just said. and let's look at donald trump. this is not new. him accusing his opponent of doing drugs, using performance enhancing drugs, getting a shot in the ass before debate. he did this with joe biden in 2020. he did it with hillary clinton in 2016. it is a bizarre tick of his. he know he's a creature of habit and he was a big boxing fan back in the day so some of this might be harkening back to the smack talk that you have before big boxing matches. but putting that aside, i think what -- to your point about what is more important, the substance or the style, agree that style here is going to be really important for both of them. and for joe biden, he's just going to meet the low bar of showing up and being present, somewhat vigorous. with donald trump, it is a little bit different. right. my concern as a democrat is that a lot of people are going to expect the unhinged donald trump. the donald trump that you spoke about in your introto show up. and there is a lot of indications that that might not be the donald trump who shows up. this election cycle, he has a much more professional disciplined team than he's had in the past. look, it is all relative. and we saw that when he's had big moments before, like the night he won the iowa caucus, a very restrain and dare i say boring donald trump showed up. so there is a chance that that donald trump shows up on the debate stage on thursday. and joe biden and democrats need to be prepared for that. and be prepared for someone who is not going to show up and being a raving lunatic. but what you can do, however, is get him on the record, on the things that we know that will be played in the little sound bites that we were talking about. because most people will not be watching the debate in full. they'll be seeing clips on tiktok and with friends that are sharing on social media and we know what the key issues are going to be. it is going to be getting donald trump, trapping him into saying some of the worst stuff he said about abortion rights, trapping him into saying the worse things he said about the election an january 6. getting him to admit to the facts that he was the reason why republicans tanked our best chance at bipartisan immigration reform in decades. and, yes, that is an issue of substance. and i do think it is really important that while we do focus on style, we do have to understand that joe biden has vulnerabilities with the electorate on two key issues. one is the economy and to what david said, he's got to show he's going to be a fighter for the middle class, but on the issue of immigration, that is one of the key issues for voters in these swing states and i do think as someone who advised tom souzzi and new york three, that this is a golden opportunity for joe biden to do something that he hasn't yet. which is to put donald trump on the defensive on this issue and show that he is the person that is stoking chaos at the border, not joe biden and that is a good way to flip the script on an issue where democrats are on the back heel right now. >> let me show some of what donald trump -- i like that -- hey who shows up. this is some of the donald trumps that have shown up in the past. let me play this for all of you. >> you want to call him, do you want to call him. >> proud boys. >> proud boys, stand become and stand by. >> i'm not here to call out his lies. i want to make sure. [ multiple speakers ] >> mr. president, you could let him finish sir. >> he doesn't know how to do that. >> my social security payroll contribution will go up as will donald's figuring he can't figure out how to get out of it. we want to replenish it. >> such a nasty woman. >> because woe rather have a puppet as a president. >> no puppet, no puppet. >> you're the puppet. >> it is pretty clear that you wouldn't admit that russia -- >> i'm just thinking about debate prep and i'm thinking about, you know, the moment that you can't plan for. and the state of the union speech is the right parallel that hillary clinton draws. and she's right to point out this is a response to the hecklers. but it is also to what liz is saying, the response in the room to immigration when the republican senator is sort of nodding and proving as a fact check on joe biden's side against the republicans in the room. i guess, if there is one fact to get through is that joe biden is going to do a republican bill on immigration and donald trump killed it. but the rest of it feels like an ability to stand up to a bully. how do you sort of prep for that in the moment-ness. >> well it is very hard to prep for the moment-ness. you have to lean on the natural abilities of the candidate and i think joe biden has shown that he has some natural abilities to go off the cuff and do that in a way most of the time. i'm not saying all of the time. there have been some instances where he hasn't done it well. but most of the time he does it well. i don't think you need to choose this -- it is a false choice to say style or substance. i think you show strength and show what competence by the substance you talk about. including immigration. and i agree a thousand percent with liz on this. i'm surprised that the democrats and joe biden hasn't used immigration as proactive in this. not that they're going to win the issue on this. but actually put donald trump and the republicans on the defensive in the course of this debate. but i think you show your strong by having command of the substance and show what the american people. but i think fundamentally, when all is said and done, i think what joe biden needs to relate, and he needs to give voters a permission structure, and not say this directly, you may have questions about my age or you may not like me. but every day i'm working on my administration -- my administration is working on behalf of you every single day. and by the way, i'm doing more for trump voters than donald trump has ever done in the course of this. and donald trump over there is not doing anything any day of the week that helps anybody but himself. and i think by talking substance and showing his strength, he has to be able to say, you know, you may not like me, but i'm working every day on your behalf and you may not always agree with me, but that is any north star. donald trump's north star is himself. >> why not say something about the age? why not hang a lantern around your own problem and just you know knock it out as an issue. >> well, i think he could do it. if i spent you know 15 minutes, i could come up with kind of a funny line on this and in the course of this. i've always thought about the choice here and i'm not saying he would say this, but the choice here is the choice if you have to -- nicolle, if you want someone to house sit your home and you two elderly man between your choice and you have to pick one, one, this guy named joe biden who is elderly, he may forget to turn the porch light off and he may take a nap or two. but he's going to water your plants and feed your dog. donald trump, the house sitter, will kill your plants, sell your furniture, and kill your dog and probably let the burglars in so he could split the profits on whatever the burglar is going to get. that is the choice between two older people that will sit your house. somebody forgets the porch light and someone that will sell your furniture and kill your dog. >> that is a -- that is a -- all right. no one is going anywhere. i want to -- i want to put -- you don't have 15 minutes but almost. so work on that line, matt. still to come. there is an eerie quiet among the most maga right-wing extremists. people believe it is because they've invented a new lie. it is not good news. they now believe that donald trump cannot lose. if he does lose, it is because the election was rigged. of course, none of this is true. but it is the potential risk to domestic and national security are very real. and despite what the ex president said, corporate america are not exactly on board with another trump white house. we'll explain. and later in the broadcast, the judge overseeing the new york criminal trial that found the ex-president guilty on 34 felony counts related to his first presidential run in 2016, said donald trump will not be free to publicly speak out against the witnesses who testified against him. one of those witnesses will join us, michael cohen will be here on the ramifications of loosening donald trump's gag order. all of those stories and more coming up. don't go anywhere. fect. new parodontax active gum repair breath freshener. clinically proven to help reverse the four signs of early gum disease. a new toothpaste from parodontax, the gum experts. 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[ speaking minionese ] yippee! and see "despicable me 4" in theaters july 3rd. rated pg. well there has been a trend since the may 30th guilty verdict in the new york case. the movement is among independents and they have moved in recent polls roughly 9 points towards biden. and remember, 21% of independents in a survey shortly after the conviction said that they were less likely to vote for donald trump as a result of the conviction. >> we're back with david, matt and liz. there was something, david plouffe, that one of the republicans running against trump in the primary said to me and it was that even trump has seen the same polling that his opponents in the primary had seen and that is what karl rove just said, that a conviction does damage him. that is why he worked on the mar-a-lago case and the chutkan case to delay. but it wasn't possible in new york. and i wonder to that trend specifically, do the facts that there are more independents than they were four and eight years ago, how does biden build on that? >> well, again, i think that the debate is by far between now and when people started voting, this debate is the biggest opportunity. and i want to double back for a minute. strength is important throughout the entire debate. so when you're talking about democracy, you're talking about the rule of law, health care, whatever the issue, biden has got to be strong, he's got to be clear, and he's got to put trump on the defensive and he can't be defensive. most incumbents, including presidents, the trap they fall into is they spend too much time defending their record. and if joe biden does that, he knows better, i'm sure they're practicing not to do it but we know these are human beings on this panel, so there is the practice phase and then they get up there and they don't always bring to the stage because a opponent annoys them. so for biden, i think a lot of the independents are the voters who are saying i'm not sure biden is up to that. so i could answer that. and on immigration, i think that could be a moment that biden wins in the debate because he could put trump on the defensive. like the formula is all about him. he couldn't be clear. don't help out on the border, i'm going to undercut republican senators because it will hurt me and help joe. and i think there is going to be a hunter biden moment in this case. and to me, biden could dominate that. let it's talk about that. i love my son. he was found guilty by a jury of his peers. and i re spect that. as painful as it is. i will not pardon him or commute him. and i think the picture matthew painted is one you have to do, put yourself a year from now, all of the two things that we know donald trump will do is investigate his political opponents and he's not going to be focused at all on the american people and one thing that he'll get done is more tax cuts for the wealthy. and if you could paint that picture and i agree with you on age, i think with independents, if joe biden said listen, i get it. your choice in this election is between two elderly white men and you are not excited about that. i need people where they are. and let's talk about the differences between us and what the next four years will do. and that is the picture i think biden contains with strength. which is i'm going to wake up every day and run through a wall for welders, for retirees and this guy is going to be focused on himself. so i think independents are -- and the thing i'm a democrat i'm concerned about, are younger voters and voters of collar, i don't think a strong debate performance is enough. think it will help. add the trickery piece of the puzzle to pick out and a lot of those voters wouldn't watch this entire debate so you have to be focused on the day after or two days after or three days after, what is the dominant set of videos and memes on instagram and youtube and tiktok. >> and, liz, i trust that they have the best of the best working on that effort, because i think a lot of those voters won't turn the television on between now and election day. everything they consume will be sort of what comes of thee events. >> yeah. and the biden campaign has been really smart about this. and i sometimes i see some snark before it from members in the mainstream media. but they've been very smart about partnering with them on tiktok and instagram and people with big social media followings because we need to meet voter where's they are. we need to reach them where they are consuming their news. and unfortunately, this is not always going to be on "deadline: white house." it is not always going to be in "the new york times." and so i think it is really smart to reach out to creators who aren't 100% political who aren't 100% democrat to make sure we're reaching voter where's they are. also making sure that we're getting clips out, to relevant audiences in nonpolitical outlets. sports outlets and entertainment outlets, women focuses outlets and the biden team has been very smart about that and i think that is something that will pay dividends for them going forward. >> liz, how do you -- i mean, we talked about your beautiful book and about pete buttigieg and about what it is like to work for someone who feels like -- not just the democratic party, but just future. i helped sarah palin against a debate. and when she said can i call you joe, it was a moment that was hers and only hers. george w. bush and i both worked for. his best line was in a debate against al gore when he said something about wood. there are people for whom, when they give out at wards for -- give out at wards, they might not make the list but they could still own the moment and own the evening by showcasing their humanity, by showcasing their humility, by self-owning the thing that everybody else is talking about. what is that moment for joe biden? >> well, i think you hit the nail on the head. for him, it is his humanity. it is his empathy. because he's the type of guy that, you know, you might disagree with him on politics and not agree with every policy decision he's made. but generally people think he's a good decent guy, he's a family man, someone who is uncle joe. out there looking out for regular people. and i think the more that he could lean into that, and lean into that sort of image of himself, the better. because it is also a great contrast with donald trump. who was all smoke and mirrors, who is all about showmanship, who is all about himself. joe biden might not be perfect, he might not have done everything that every voter has wanted him to do. but he goes out there every day and fights for them whereas donald trump when he was elected, he went out there and got results for millionaires, billionaires and the forms of the biggest tax cuts in history. and we know that if he were to get elected again, he would double down on those policies, but also as david said, go out there and spend a lot ofe are sl struggling in the post covid world that we live in. >> doug, really quick, last question. do you bring up the blueprint for a second term which is what liz just said. 2025 is about prosecuting his enemies. he got far last time targeting and prosecuting and smearing people he thought threatened him. what do you do with that if anything? >> i think that is the one fundamental things that he has to do and joe biden needs to say i'm on my last years here, the country is going to be turned over to you. as the new generation ever leadership here. do you want a democracy or do you want what donald trump presents? here is what donald trump presents. and here is what i'm trying to protect and preserve for you who are going to lead this country for next 50 or 60 years. that is what i think the big question park is. it is not about joe biden or donald trump personally, it is about what kind of country is going to be here in january 20th, 2025. >> amen, brother. david plouffe, matt dow and liz smith, we have the smartest people. thank you very much for starting us off today with your wisdom. when can he come back, how right-wing media is priming its supporters of the disgraced ex-president and their viewers for the latest big lie. the new one. and why there is growing fear for the country's national security because of that lie. we're bringing that story next. t if you spit blood when you brush, it could be the start of a domino effect. new parodontax active gum repair breath freshener. clinically proven to help reverse the four signs of early gum disease. a new toothpaste from parodontax, the gum experts. 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(vo) new and existing customers get iphone 15 on us when they trade in any iphone. verizon i have active psoriatic arthritis. but with skyrizi to treat my skin and joints, count me in. along with clearer skin, skyrizi helps me move with less joint pain, stiffness, swelling, and fatigue. and is just 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine, or plan to. there's nothing like clearer skin and better movement and that means everything! ask your doctor about skyrizi today. learn how abbvie could help you save. i would expect that he'll get through the debate, but the question is will he be intelligible the whole time. >> those are wins numbers. saying donald trump is the next president of the united states. >> he's on the verge of a 1980 ronald reagan blowout of jimmy carter and i don't see practically how the democrats offset reality. >> they're going to gain the system and maybe even cheat. >> how are we going to accept the results of this election in this kind of landscape. >> let's say by some weird miraculous chance that we didn't see coming given that trump is ahead has a 66% chance of winning, looking like he'll get the electoral count and he still wins, what do you do after you win and how do you convince anyone that is real. imagine if that was all of the information that you took in. between today and election day. if that was all you knew about the election. distorted, bizarre, alternate reality, not rooted in truth. well right now donald trump is by their telling so far out in front in the race for president in 2024, that the only thing standing between trump and the white house again are the cheating democrats. guess that is how the conspiracy goes. but what makes this alternate reality is fox news fantasy delusion so dangerous is that conservative media and trump himself are priming viewersage trump supporters would reject any election that results in anything other than a trump victory such as a second biden term and to then once again accept a big lie about nonexistent fraud. it is a political movement with a proven track record and insights leading to violence which is january 6. but at moment it is reported in "the washington post," the nation is experiencing a lull in political unrest. in fact, one of the quietest periods that have been reported in recent years. it might sound counter intuitive but the phenomenon are related. at moment trump supporters are sure and positive they've been told by greg gunfeld and jesse waters and laura ingraham that he's going to win and there is no need for violence, at least not yet, because the only way he loses is if joe biden and the democrats cheat. joining us, president of media matters for america angela carson is back and ben rose is here. angela, did i miss anything. i know you keep an eye on not just the segs but the narrative threads on the right. what are we missing? >> those samples at introwere not cherry picked. those were reflective of what is happening on fox news every single day. every single prime time post -- host at fox newss that claimed that democrats are going to cheese in order to steal the election in 2024, not just laura ingraham. in terms of what is missing, the two things that i would notice is the layering in more broadly in conservative media and fox as well, they have introduced a lot more religion language. so they keep referred to the election day as a blessed event and trump who is a vessel of jesus christ. so they are adding in a layer of holiness and that i think is helping justify it and rationalize any sort of violence or action that individuals have to take if, say, donald trump doesn't win the election. that it is more than just the political consequences that they have sort of religious and moral duty to take action. and that is the first thing. and the second thing is that we are in the calm before the storm and part of the reason why there is a lull is in part because people believe that trump is about to win but also because all of the major social networks have turned off access to researchers that was in '16 and '20 so they could understand and monitor many more of the chatter happening out there right now. so i think there is a lack of visibility. but from our assessment, it is just as hot as it ever was. >> say more about what the social media companies have done if terms of making that opaque. >> yeah, i mean, one of the things that social media companies, facebook, twitter, elsewhere, they used to have the services that would give researchers and reporters access to large amounts of data so they could not just look at one post or two, but get a good sample of what was happening under the hood. those tools have been turned off or greatly reduced or shut oven tirely by the major social network. so if you're a researcher, you don't have the ability to do the tracking in the way you were two years ago and i do think that lack of visibility is helping reporters saying we're had a spotlight that we're seeing and trends emerging so a lot of these things are happening in plain sight but one layer behind veil in these private and closed communities and that is where it all comes full circle because one of the things that trump and the republicans have done this cycle, and right-wing media, is they've gone further into what is considered the fringes, into more violent parts of the populous like actual nazis. but actual neo-nazi organizations to say it is time for to you be activated as wellment and it is not just our opinion or assessment. trump has been giving a wink and a nod to those individuals because that is part of where they're beginning to increase power now and the mechanism for doing that is right-wing media. it is making it more acceptable and social media is the platform and the forum in which they do that. so i think it is a lot scarier frankly and i don't -- i get why it is calmer, because they're excited. but it is also a lot more sort of opaque and confusing and there is not a lot of ability for the public to really see what is going on right now. >> let me show you, again, where we get our data and our information. this is trump reporter steven heirs calling the response to january 6. >> president trump is still promoting the big lie about the election. how does that make you feel? >> it makes me mad. because i was hanging on every word he was saying, everything he was putting out, i was following it. if i was doing it, hundreds of thousands or millions of other people are doing it. or maybe even still doing it. so it is like he just said about that, you know, you go the people still following and doing that, who knows what the next election could come out, it could end up going down the same path we are right now. just don't know. >> i mean, ben, one of the pieces of information we have have that we didn't have last two times trump was a candidate is that his followers do, do what he tells them to do. there isn't a breaking system around a threat for violence for donald trump. and they will attack law enforcement if they stand in their way. so my concern is if we don't always have these conversations in sort of acknowledging our post january 6 reality. and i wonder heading into a debate, whether there needs to be a warning or any sort of different flag on rhetoric that in the past for mr. airs led him to carry out violence against cops. what sort of concerns do you have on a security front before trump addressed more human beings than he's addressed probably in his career. >> you see this symbiosis between trump and right-wing media an it is a chicken and egg as to who is following between those two. if i look back, part of the reason we should be so concerned, if i think back to 2008, fox news wasn't nice to barack obama. but it was kind of like, went through a lot of stuff with barack obama and he won and they dealt with that. there was no question about the legitimacy. 2012 was harder for them to swallow. but still. and even through 2020, you saw some of this before the election. but nowhere near the scale we're seeing now. so the point is there is an evolution into the information environment where it is normal for there to be regular, you know, allegations that the democrats are going to steal the election, there is a messianic air to trump and his campaign. this is more than zero sum. this is like an existential battle in which there is no result in legitimate other than trump winning. that is plowing the ground beforehand. it is like a radicalization process. you know there is an event on the calendar, the election, and millions with being believing that one result is -- and we haven't been there before. and trump was president and it felt like they're guy was calling the shots. so now from this insurgent position, they're being told there is no outcome that is legitimate other than winning and because he's leading in the polls there is no way that he could lose if that happens. and again if you're looking at this from the radicalization standpoint, they're creating a eco-system designed to make people believe that. and i do think that part of what needs to be done is efforts by lots of people -- even trump supporting republicans who are more responsible, and i don't hold out a lot of hope for this, to talk about the integrity of the election. there has to be a way to puncture that information public and tell people what is true and what is fiction when it comes to the conduct of the election itself. and then you could support trump and still be in a place where you have to accept the results if he loses. and we don't see much of that at all. and the debate, i think he feeds to be called out. i get there is no real time fact checking but i do believe it gets in the direction of the big lie or getting in the elections and totally unproven claims about democrats cheating. i do think he knees to be fact checked on that stage because that is dangerous to the health of democracy. >> and he's going to be up against two anchors who are expert of doing it on their own broadcast. i have to sneak in a quick break. don't go anywhere. we'll all be right back. we'll a. ♪♪ ♪♪ citi's industry leading global payments solutions help their clients move money around the world seamlessly in over 180 countries... and help a partner like the world food programme as they provide more than food to people in need. together, citi and the world food programme empower families across the globe. ♪♪ (bell ringing) someone needs to customize and save hundreds with liberty mutual! 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dreams, and futures. kids need you now more than ever. so please call this number right now to join me in helping hungry kids or go online to helpnokidhungry.org and help feed hungry kids today. i want to ask you to pick up on what angelo said about religion. i mean, that is the tie and far right rhetoric in america to far right rhetoric of vladimir putin he's russia. >> yeah, i mean, i think there is a couple of pieces to this. the first thing is that globally, nicolle, as you point out, we see this blending of right wing populism and christian nationals. orban has the real hung arians and then the real hungarians are the christian hungarians. putin has weaponized his relationship with the church to delegitimize communities. but the problem is, there's a reason the founding fathers separated religion and politics. it's not because they didn't want people to be religious in their lives, but it's when you make politics about religion it's existential. you're no longer debating about policy differences or the direction of policy in civic life it's really about core identity. we see constantly, frankly, plenty examples around the world when you blend politics and religious, it becomes absolute. all of a sudden your religious beliefs are tied in up in your kind of political tribal identity here. that's why this is dangerous. not because people shouldn't be free to practice whatever religion they want in the country, they should. but the reason you separate church and state when you blend this religion with political debates it becomes all or nothing in a different kind of way and people are willing to go to further extremes than they would otherwise. it's a connection between fundamental religious views and violence around the world that we've experienced. this is something to watch. there's an absurdity to it because trump is not a religious figure, somebody that's not church going. but that doesn't matter he's sold as a vessel for certain beliefs, the risk of more extreme outcomes does go up. here we should talk about who can stand up and make statements about what is true and false and what is objective reality and what is, you know, not helpful to democracy. here i think religious leaders, faith leaders have a role to play and making it clear about coexistence in this nation and being deeply religious doesn't mean hating people with other beliefs. our system of government, frankly, is set up to keep that from happening. >> i have to sneak in one more break. we're in a post chris wallace fox news landscape, i want to ask you if there's any ties to reality on that network anymore. i have to sneak in a break first we'll be right back. break first we'll be right back. can distort things. and something serious may be behind those itchy eyes. up to 50% of people with graves' could develop a different condition called thyroid eye disease, which should be treated by a different doctor. see an expert. find a t-e-d eye specialist at isitted.com millions 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right wing media swamps. that's different than they were. fox was always a political operation, it's responsive but that's not the case anymore. fox is a reflection of the right wing media swamps how that ties into the conversation with ben earlier, we're in a post january 6th world and we don't ask that question enough and what the significance of it is, ben was noting one of the things different in the cycle is the notion of a stolen election is germinated, the seeds have grown into small plants, fox being a reflection moons if they're pumping more of the lies and that misinformation into the space they're validating it and making the reality, the action of that reality and all those externalities, much more likely. rupert murdoch himself acknowledged that only fox news could have corrected the record when it came to the election being stolen. they chose not to. that's the significance why this matters so much. >> angelo, we're going to do a deeper dive on some of what you're watching. so interesting. ben rhodes thank you for watching this with us. thank you both for spending time with us. ahead in the next hour, michael cohen will join us on the latest headline today from the judge and what joe biden should do in the debate against donald trump. 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just say more about one how they view trump and two, why they are largely silent about it. >> i'm glad you asked. your overview explaining where we are on the issue was fantastic. i will try to add some value on top of your openings and donnie's insights, you both have been long standing heroes to me. no fortune 100 ceo, going back a century, from william taft to calvin coolidge or herbert hoover, ronald reagan, the bushes, your friend and mine, the late john mccain to have a break like this is incredible. the business community has been there 50% or so roughly around there, supporting. and they don't in this candidate. they walked away from him. there were times where they, in fact, dramatically walked away. in august of 2017, when the e -- equating the white supremacists with the peaceful antiracial demonstrators in charlottesville, the first time in american history we saw the business community refuse a call to action by the commander in chief that these three advisory counsels left and never came back. headlines said business leaders are flocking back, that's false they were never there in the first place. in 2005 after donnie was with the apprentice, you had to have -- they had the finality because i was critiquing each ep episode for the wall street journal. the ceos said if he walks in we're walking out, the big shots did walk out when he walked in. they were never with him, supporting him. what you said, they're not isolationists, they're not protectionists, not zee know phones and believe in the rule of law not the law of rulers. in the 1960s, where only donnie i think is old enough to remember, that -- >> you compliment and then insult. that's okay we'll take both sides of that. >> i don't know the dove soap was a compliment. i think you condemned both presentations and both teams on "the apprentice". >> sounds like me. >> people got mad at you, i like that. in the social change in the '60s we had clergy across faiths linking arms, we had trade union leaders, professional associations, university presidents, we had employee groups and institutional investors that the -- the ceos getting out in front and they will again if there's a catastrophe. they shouldn't be out there alone. they're hired hands working for the other stakeholders so we would like to see civil society speak out in addition to the ceos. but the ceos are not lining up behind trump and trump is promoting the image they are, which is gobbled up by some of the skeptical left that the ceos are not to be trusted they are, they're not behind trump and the right is saying he's a shrewd business leader he knows how to run the economy. that's ridiculous, they hate his economic deals all tariffs all the time are ludicrous, they would drive up inflation 3% and tank the economy at least a percent or more and retaliatory gestures on top of that from other nations, going 60% up against china we wouldn't afford any pharmaceuticals, apparel or many other critical goods, chips. and then disastrous with the deficit. he ran up the deficit. he pretty much tripled it while, you know, biden brought it down by a third. and in the debt, he took that up 100%, trump did, and biden is taking that up 15%, not great but better than 100%. and we had this incredible economic performance where we have 3.8% unemployment. i think donny and i are watching bonanza the last time we had that record sorry donny. you were watching all in the family i think was big that year, also so was i. and to have inflation falling, everybody admits inflation has fallen from 7% down to, say, i don't know, maybe 2.7% or so. which is pretty remarkable. i'll say more if you -- >> no, i -- let me ask you this: i am comforted that they don't support him but not quieted because i think there is a role in a society to know what the business community thinks. and i think there are a lot of americans, i know there are a lot of trump supporters who think trump is the guy they support because that's a lie trump has told them. why won't they speak out and use their massive platforms and their credibility as people who create jobs in the country to warn of dangers of what trump is running on this time, which is an autocratic regime? >> they spoke out in favor of mitt romney. they spoke out in favor of john mccain, of the bushes and reagan and others. the fact that they are not endorsing trump right now is very powerful. they're not putting their money there. they're not putting their voice there. as influencers they're not trying to tell anybody to vote for trump. that's very strong. in terms of where other civil society leaders are, where are the clergy, trades, where's the university presidents, we need to see others speak out because the ceos are on only ones on the list that are the hired hands working for others. as they get too far ahead as they did. after the election fiascos where trump tried to pull off a cue dea, on thursday the 6th, the ceos said can you get together a group -- i said get the round table, the business conference to pull them together they said no you do it. they have too much beauracracy. so we called 100 ceos, got 95 of them together for the next morning, friday morning, and they're all very big names, the financial times sadly leaked their names and they're 65% republicans, they were condemning and came out with a five-point statement for when the election was called, saturday, the 7th, they put their names behind it that's what xi jinping, benjamin netanyahu, used as a speaker board. even chuck schumer and nancy pelosi didn't yet have a chance to speak before the business community certified the truth on the elections on saturday when the pennsylvania vote was certified. the business community did speak out, called for his impeachment, and they also walked away in august, of course, of 2017 when the equation of the white supremacists with the antiviolence demonstrators in charlottesville. first time in history the business leaders walked away from a call to action. i think other leaders have been less courageous. if there's a crisis they will speak out but they're not supporting donald trump right now. >> i guess just to play the devil's advocate, i think the crisis is they walked back to the republican enablers of donald trump who represent a greater threat to our democracy, that's why trump is the nominee because mitch mcconnell said he'd support him. they walked right back, i think it was weeks later and supported a lot of republican house members who refused to certify the election and voted against it, republicans who refused to convict trump when he was on trial. the reason i put importance on them, i don't find them heroic, i find them on the right side in the measures you described but heroic would be to have more to lose, be out further and not supporting trump is not the same as warning everybody in the country about the danger of a second trump presidency. is that on the table for any of them? >> you're lucky we're 1000 miles apart, i would hug you in the studio and never be invited back. i love that question. it's a misconception that people from the right, left and center promote. i'm happy you raise it. the moratorium on supporting those objectors in the elections happened at one of our business leaders for national unity pop up events that happened on january 5th, the day before the insurrection, the business leaders voted to condemn the objectors should those 127 congressional leaders not support and certify the electoral college the next day. they didn't, and guess what, it's to be a two-year moratorium, despite what's reported it was virtually 100% support from "the washington post" to wherever said they're not going to live by it. right away they did. the federal election data shows in q 1, q 2, q 3, q 4, and two years they live by it. ted cruz no longer gets business support. he got tons before. marco rubio no longer gets business support, got tons of it before. you go across the board you find marjorie taylor greene, these others, the business leadership doesn't support those candidates. so it hurt them hard. ted cruz will say, i don't want their support anymore. they didn't mind taking it before, they're not getting it now. it's a shame they lost their backbone, those leaders. and after condemning trump went back. that's awful. but you can't blame that on the business community? >> donny, jump in here. >> first of all, it's a pleasure to be on with jeff, the ceo whisperer. a couple of things i want to add to what jeffrey said. one of the reason ceos don't like trump and clearly they're certainly not behind them, two thirds that are republicans, is they like predictability, they don't like volatility, all you get with trump is volatility, that's a issue. and the other thing, i worked with ceos. when you're a ceo to get to that point i found them to be decent people. the media makes out, they talk about their pay packages. you don't run a fortune 500 company without building a consensus in people, understanding people's needs, having a sense of empathy. i think there's another play here they're just human beings and beyond what's in their best business interest we can talk why trump is not in their best interest, they're fathers, mothers, brothers, sons, they're educated. so you put that into the bucket as human beings and the bucket we have record gdp, lowest unemployment, inflation which is cooling. we have corporate profits at all time high so there's a lot of business reasons, left wing reasons but i go back, having spent 30 or 40 years doing this, most ceos i met are decent human beings or they don't get there. i think that's a piece of it. >> donny, i think you're exactly right. >> go ahead. >> we have these soaring highs in the financial markets to add to your great list and the world bank just said the economic growth of this nation is driving their global forecast it's so strong. but business leaders don't like to tear apart the social fabric. when in 1940 it was said it's not the tightness in the laws but the social trust which he called social capital that's more important than financial capital. these ceos, whether or not they're patriotic or not, they know free enterprise only works if people believe in the system. they don't want to tear apart the social fabric of society. >> i have to take in a break -- go ahead. >> trump we know his heroes are orban and putin. and you're going to have an oligarch system. if somebody says something or posts something he's telling you, you're going to be in trouble. i don't think ceos want to look at a fearless leader if they're not doing the right business thing according to what trump thinks is right. they're suffering consequences of not getting the mergers signed you have, fdc reporting to him, sec reporting to him. >> i have to -- >> and the federal reserve. >> i have to sneak in a break i want to put you both on the spot with this simple question. where are they? much more on that when we get back on what american business leaders think of the four times indicted, criminally convicted, running as an oligarch ex-president. and still ahead, michael cohen will be here on the decision by the judge today to partially lift the gag order in the hush money interference case. what president biden can do to push trump's buttons in thursday night's debate as well. and later, brand new evidence and photos at classified material at mar-a-lago. what it says about trump's intent to commit crimes and keep it from law enforcement. 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ask about the power of 3 with ozempic®. to me, harlem is home. but home is also your body. i asked myself, why doesn't pilates exist in harlem? so i started my own studio. getting a brick and mortar in new york is not easy. chase ink has supported us from studio one to studio three. when you start small, you need some big help. and chase ink was that for me. earn up to 5% cash back on business essentials with the chase ink business cash card from chase for business. make more of what's yours. donny who i just want to believe on everything they said, but jeffrey, answer this question for me. you cannot get hired at any of the companies run by a fortune 500 ceo if you're a convicted felon, that should be it. if they really don't want to see trump as america's next president for all the reasons you both articulated over the next 23 minutes why aren't they fighting like their businesses depend on the re-election of joe biden? >> these days you couldn't lead a trade union. there was one trade union where six former presidents were imprisoned. these days you couldn't lead a trade union, you couldn't take over a neighborhood church as a minister if you had the same record. where are those voices? i can't think of any voice in society other than politicians that have not spoken out more than the ceos. the people that control the companies, 90% owned by employee pensions who spoke out, harley davidson, disney, coca-cola, general motors, these ie cops of american enterprise have suffered repercussions from trump's reprisals for speaking out but still speak out when they need to. their hired hands that run the companies, if stakeholders don't support them, it's hard. but apple, dell, microsoft, those hold their grounds. and these companies that are condemned of being woke, out perform the right economy anything like truth social or ramaswamy's companies, or the american social value fund or things, they dramatically out performed them. these companies do well and do good. they believe they're not antithetical, but they can't do it alone. >> donny, help bridge the gap. i hear what jeffrey is saying, they have shareholders, bosses, and they have workforces, including women whose lives would be in danger if trump were re-elected and the supreme court becomes more extreme. when does the tipping become if they become actors. >> let me give you the hard answer, they have one job, whether we like it or not that's to increase shareholder value. in this polarized world right now, when you come out on one side, selling anything mass, and anybody in these fortune 500 companies are in the business of selling to the masses you're choosing a side and alienating another side. you saw jamie diamond say trump did a few good things, and he got all kinds of feedback from it. but this is a very different moment in time when i said the military has to acted differently, the news media has to act differently, clergy and ceos. and our world will not be as we know it, have become used to it and take it for granted if donald trump is elected. i think ceos have to step out of the comfort zone but they have to look at the u.s. value also. the corporation, the usa, will be damaged in many ways if donald trump is president. >> the names we see floated around, david sack, i don't know what he has in the sack, it's not as much money as people think. timmy melon, we have good melons, rotten melons i don't know what kind he is but he's not his father, grandfather, great grandfather or great great grandfather who made the wealth. that's the melon who created melon bank and gulf oil. this guy is a wealthy heir and these are the people sending the money to maga. that and individual donors it's a handful of wealthy people not ceos. we had the uncertainty over election transition, it was not religious leaders, any public officials across the board that spoke out to condemn what donald trump was trying to do. it was the ceos. including the academy, media, clergy have plummeted. despite the corruption scandals in the earlier part of this millennia, the ceos are the most trusted voice in society. and they speak out when they need to. but boy it sure would be nice if they're not the only ones as they get on a limb and you have a lot of trouble because you have red state pension holders that want them fired for speaking out. >> i appreciate donny, understanding the fraught nature of this for ceos. but i think this is that moment. this is the moment to maybe get -- put everything on the line. we're asking the military to do that. generals don't want to tell people who to vote for. there are not-mattis, kelly, milly, but a lot of people who spent their lives, nonpartisan -- committed to nonpartisanships out there. a lot of people who spent their lives walking the same walk that a ceo is trying to walk, for different reasons and i'll leave it to the viewer to decide which is, you know, better or worse. but i guess my point is, this is that moment. this is that moment. >> this is that moment, nicole -- >> i can't lead a company if we lose our democracy. this is that moment, i wonder really quick, do you think any of them will do something more brave? >> i think you will have some ceos speaking out. there are heroes in every generation, category, occupational field and i do believe there will be some ceos, these are the smartest people in the world, and i beg them please speak out. you know better. you know the truth about donald trump as a human and a business person. put it on the line. that's why you get the big bucks. >> reverend sharp agreed with me yesterday we could here from the clergy and help people join the admiral and general, where are those retired military joining the handful that spoke out? we need to hear from the rest of retired military as well. >> you watch the program you know we call on them every single day. i really appreciate this conversation. jeffrey and donny, thank you so much for spending time with us. when we come back, judge merchan today partially lifting the gag order on the ex-president. reaction next from one of the key witnesses in the case, former trump attorney, michael cohen, who also has some ideas on exactly how president joe biden can get under donald trump's skin in the opening moments of thursday's debate. moe e a long time ago. and year after year, you weathered the storm and just lived with the damage that was left behind. but even after all this time your thyroid eye disease could still change. restoration is still possible. learn how you could give your eyes a fresh start at tedhelp.com. 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>> i'm hanging in there. like i said before, he and his aclites have been doing this for six years. let's not forget the members of congress and the friends of trump that showed up to the courthouse when i was testifying. and the first chance they have to go to run out to do donald's bidding, they're right there in front of the camera, including people like the number two guy in our government, maga mike johnson out there carrying donald trump's water for him. is it stressful? sure. do i feel bad for myself and other witnesses that donald intends to go after? who knows, maybe he'll do it at the upcoming debate. i feel bad for them, for myself. what can he say that he has not said already a thousand times. that's what donald does, he repeats himself over and over and over. what's he going to say, michael cohen is a liar, michael cohen is a gloat, michael cohen didn't tell the truth, he's my lawyer, he did it all on his own. we all know the truth already. it's six years of me telling the same story and donald can't keep track of what story he's saying next. >> michael, do you think it is -- he doesn't read, he doesn't read books, but he can read a poll, you know, you were in the trenches with him when he was first becoming a politician, and i wonder if you think discrediting you and discrediting the case is also about what he sees in the polls about his loss of support among independent voters. >> yeah. 100%, he can't read a poll and you're right, he doesn't read books. he didn't read the memos that were given to him when he was president of the united states. what he wants is he wants bullet points. and that's what polls really are. it just shows you whether you're up or down, plus or minus, the 50/50. is he going to -- is he going to impress any independent voter out there by attacking me or by attacking stormy daniels or a juror or judge or anybody else at any point in time before the election? the answer is a resounding no. but is that going to change his mind? the answer is no to that too. because he's a petulant child and he doesn't think past the moment. he needs to do for himself, to get off of his chest the anger, the angst he has as a result of that poll. and so, he's going to go ahead and he's going to make up stories like the fact that he's now going out and saying things like president biden is sleeping so that he gets all the energy for the debate and they're going to give him an injection of like adderall or something to really hype him up for the debate, it's because he knows he's losing. and he's losing not because of, you know, anything that joe biden is doing. he's losing because of the things that he's doing. and by the way, he should be out of the race already based upon the successes of joe biden, but that's not what's knocking trump down in the polls, it's his own actions, his own stupidity that people are seeing now and saying to themselves, i can't have this guy for four years. you know, he's dangerous to democracy. he's dangerous to just the world. >> i -- as someone who was in charge of making the things go ahead that kept trump up at night, the things that bothered him the most, i have to sneak in a break but i want to ask you, what trump is up at night worrying about and how joe biden could bother him the most if he wanted to. we'll have that conversation on the other side of a quick break. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere. if you have moderate to severe ulcerative colitis or crohn's disease... put it in check with rinvoq... a once-daily pill. when symptoms tried to take control, i got rapid relief and reduced fatigue with rinvoq. check! when flares kept trying to slow me down i got lasting steroid-free remission with rinvoq. check! and when my doctor saw damage, rinvoq helped visibly reduce damage of the intestinal lining. check! for both uc and crohn's: rapid symptom relief lasting steroid-free remission. and visibly reduced damage. check. check. and check! rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal, cancers, including lymphoma and skin, heart attack, stroke, and gi tears occurred. people 50 and older with a heart disease risk factor have an increased risk of death. serious allergic reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. put uc and crohn's in check ...and keep them there with rinvoq. ask your gastroenterologist about rinvoq and learn how abbvie can help you save. since my citi custom cash® card automatically adjusts to earn me more cash back in my top eligible category... suddenly life's feeling a little more automatic. like doors opening wherever i go... 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[mind blown explosion noise] (vo) you might be used to living with your albuterol asthma rescue inhaler, but it's a bit of a dinosaur, because it only treats your symptoms, not inflammation. treating both symptoms and inflammation with rescue is supported by asthma experts. finally, there's a modern way to treat symptoms and asthma attacks. airsupra is the first ever dual-action rescue inhaler that treats your asthma symptoms and helps prevent attacks. airsupra is the only rescue fda-approved to do both. airsupra is an as-needed rescue inhaler and should not be used as a maintenance treatment for asthma. get medical help right away if your breathing does not improve, continues to worsen, or for serious allergic reactions. using airsupra more than prescribed could be life threatening. serious side effects include heart problems, increased risk of thrush or infections. welcome to the modern age of dual-action asthma rescue. ask your doctor if airsupra is right for you. well, i'll let the president say what he's going to say, but the fact of the matter is the sky is blue sometimes and donald trump is a convicted felon and the american people have to sit in that, the person who wants to be president has to go sit with his probation officer before he goes to the debate. it's a fact. it's not just to call donald trump a convicted felon it goes to his behavior and character. he's filed bankruptcy six times. that means he's not just a bad business guy it means he screwed all the small people that relied on him for a living. and so the american people are going to see that. >> back with michael cohen. i'm dying to talk to you about the debate particularly getting under trump's skin. i have this fantasy biden comes out, it's 10:00, i came out, kissed my wife, swore on the bible, donald trump had to go to his probation officer. how do we use this in a way that we know bothers donald trump. >> first of all there are a large number of topics that get under trump's skin, including what mr. landrieu just was referring to, the number of bankrupt bankruptcies, talking about donald's poor business acumen, talk about him being a stable businessman and talk about sharks and boats and water and then electrocution and then his belief that he can do anything in 24 hours, but the -- it's not just the topics that you bring out that get under trump's skin, it's also how you say it. the delivery by joe biden has to be a legitimate -- almost like a comedic type of delivery. one that pokes fun at donald. it's not just necessarily the topic. >> what does that sound like? tell me what it sounds like. so trump is out there, the ukraine war in 24 hours -- i don't know what he's promising anymore, crazy things. what does joe biden say? >> listen, my opponent says, you know, many things that make no sense at all. i mean, you know, just because the stable genius says he could do something in 24 hours, it's almost as ridiculous as when he decided that he was going to be able to move a jet stream for a category 5 hurricane using a sharpie. these are the things that my opponent just doesn't seem to understand. and just because he calls his people and has them bring his markers and his crayola crayons and he's going to scratch off china doesn't mean we don't owe them a million dollars in debt and then he takes his red crayon and scratches off japan we don't owe them 1.2 trillion, that doesn't mean it's gone. that means that donald took his crayon and marked up a piece of paper. these are the things that the american people have to understand. there are minutia involved here that require something much, much more than bullet points. they require actual reading and studying and understanding the situation. understanding it to the point that you are trying to come up with a resolution that benefits all americans and not just him and his family. >> michael, in 2016 someone told me the reason -- i was looking for an answer to the phenomenon of trump defeating 15 republican candidates, one of them jeb bush, one of them marco rubio and then defeating hillary clinton, they said the asymmetry is they attacked him for his policies being crappy. they said he doesn't care about his policies, what does he care about? his va rilty, how women view him, he cares about his wealth and he does care about being called stupid. all of this is to the people who didn't think he was smart enough when he lived and worked in new york. what does this look like on a debate stage? how do you get at those things? >> you have to poke fun because they do care, americans do care now. the reason that donald trump was so successful in 2016 was not because of anything he said, it was the people that were running against him and the american people were in a position they were like, hey, this is a successful businessman, we sold them a bill of goods. we sold them an individual that didn't exist. that he could put his business acumen to work for you, the american people. here's what we ultimately learned, his daughter and son-in-law walked out of the white house making $640 million only to three months later pull down $2 billion from the saudis. his company is charging secret service in order to stay in his place, a fee that's like three times the amount of what you can get if you were went to like hotels.com or something like that. this is not a man who cares about the american people, he doesn't care about the country. it's all about what's in it for him. and i think a lot of people are turned off about that. but you asked a question before you went to break, which is what do i think is keeping donald trump up at night? and again, like if that was a question that popped up on the debate stage, i would say probably a week bladder and some gas issues, but putting all that aside, what's keeping donald up at night is the fact that he is going for sentencing for 34 criminal -- for 34 criminal counts when he was held guilty all right criminally, in less than two weeks. so these are the things keeping him up at night. he knows it's a state case that he cannot pardon himself even if he wants to. even if he wins he cannot pardon himself. >> amazing. thank you for bringing that back into focus and for your thoughts from a guy who knows. michael cohen thank you very much for spending time with us. to be continued. a quick break for us, we'll be right back. r us, we'll be right back [ cellphone ringing ] phone call from the boss? sorry. outdoor time is me time. i hear that. that's why we protect all your vehicles here. but hey...nothing wrong with sticking it to the boss. ooooh, flo, you gonna take that? why would that concern me? because you're...the... aren't you the..? huh...we never actually discussed hierarchy. ok, why don't we just stick to letting dave know how much he can save when he bundles his home or auto with his boat or rv. wait, i thought jamie was the boss. [ laughter ] it's funny because i'm not boss material! as americans, there's one thing we can all agree on. the promise of our constitution and the hope that liberty and justice is for all people. but here's the truth. attacks on our constitutional rights, yours and mine are greater than they've ever been. the right for all to vote. reproductive rights. the rights of immigrant families. the right to equal justice for black, brown and lgbtq+ folks. the time to act to protect our rights is now. that's why i'm hoping you'll join me today in supporting the american civil liberties union. it's easy to make a difference. just call or go online now and become an aclu guardian of liberty. all it takes is just $19 a month. only $0.63 a day. your monthly support will make you part of the movement to protect the rights of all people, including the fundamental right to vote. states are passing laws that would suppress the right to vote. we are going backwards. but the aclu can't do this important work without the support of people like you. you can help ensure liberty and justice for all and make sure that every vote is counted. so please call the aclu now or go to my aclu.org and join us. when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special we the people t-shirt and much more. to show you're a part of the movement to protect the rights guaranteed to all of us by the us constitution. we protect everyone's rights, the freedom of religion, the freedom of expression, racial justice, lgbtq rights, the rights of the disabled. we are here for everyone. it is more important than ever to take a stand. so please join us today. because we the people means all the people, including you. so call now or go online to my aclu.org to become a guardian of liberty. something exciting to tell you about today. msnbc's first of its kind live event in brooklyn on saturday, september 7th, it's called msnbc live democracy 2024 featuring lots of our friends, rachel and joy, ari, chris, alex, lawrence, and much more. look at that line-up. they'll be there talking about what we talk about every day, this crucial moment for our country and our democracy. luke russert is the host and creative director of msnbc live and this evening, luke whereby tell us about this. this is your baby. >> nicolle, thank you so much for having me. very much appreciated. we are so excited. our msnbc fans are some of the most engaged in all of television. and there's been this real value add in gathering again. a lot of us on msnbc have gone out on book tours or speaking engagements and we see how much fans want to talk about politics and the issues of the day. so we had this idea for msnbc to do the first of its kind, get all our hosts and contributors in one place at one time and invite our most loyal and dedicated viewers to come out and as rachel maddow said last night meet all us goobers. if you want to come see us september 7th so many different things. one session where steve kornacki is literally going to take his big board and show you how it operates and do an entire preview of the latest polls in that crucial two months ahead of the election. that session with rachel and lawrence getting into the issues of the day. we have a dinner option. we have a film from msnbc going to be shown. there's so many things there, and we really hope you guys can come out. >> luke, our viewers are so extraordinary. and i think you hit on something important. i think they've always been super bonded to rachel and lawrence and everybody, but i think there was something during covid where rachel was telling them things that might save their lives, where when we got sick -- there's this bond. i meet viewers and i always stop and talk to them. i want to hear everything and i take their advice. i remember a viewer had the mueller report in his back. they are so smart and so informed. how do we prepare to sort of meet the people we admire, the people that watch us every day? >> i was so touched because so many of our hosts and contributors were so excited to do this because just like you, they love talking with our viewers. i think what's going to be so interesting about this opportunity is in television as great a job we do here at this network, you are confined by segments. you have three minutes here, six minutes here. in this opportunity we can really have some organic conversations. we can let things flow. we can do some great q&a. we can really have conversations. we can really get behind the scenes not only on the politic and the policy but also get to see people in their own lens and communicate with them and talk to them and develop connections that are so meaningful. i think it will be a wonderful event and the first of its kind. let's hope it works out, fingers crossed, but it's an exciting thing to do and we're so blessed today have the opportunity to try. >> luke, it's so cool. it's definitely going to work. you're in charge. it's such a privilege when we get to meet our viewers, and this is a whole night about them. very, very cool. we'll keep talking about it as the program comes into focus. is that a deal? >> absolutely. and there's so many interesting things. and a big movie will be reviewed or we'll preview there. a cool msnbc movie, come check it out. >> very cool. luke russert, thank you for spending some time with us today. another break for us. we'll be right back. today. another break for us we'll be right back. keep those expectations with reliable ground shipping. thanks brandon. with usps ground advantage®. ♪♪ your shipping manager left to “find themself.” leaving you lost. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire sfx: [screams] [crowd gasps] bleeding gums are serious, jamie... dr. garcia? whoa! they're a sign of bacterial infection. crest gum detoxify's antibacterial fluoride works below the gumline to help heal gums and stop bleeding. crest saves the day! crest. thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. we are grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. >> hi,