hi, everyone. happy friday. it is 4:00 in the east on an interesting and important day of breaking news including a pair of decisions from the supreme court, and one for the massive implication of the very ability of our government to function, and another one throwing a wrench in efforts to hold the january 6th insurrections legally accountable. both of the rulings held by the nation's highest court and that court is dominated by a 6-3 right wing super majority. and all of those underscoring the massive and historic and tectonic undeniable prestigious political cycle. last night at the presidential debate, donald trump went unchecked as he blustered for 90 minutes. and there was deep anxiety and bordering on deep panic and kweps of what the biden campaign does to steady all of the angst. after an evening of torrent of lies raised by trump and the two mod rays or the was overshadowed by the performance of president joe biden. earlier today, president biden seeming to understand that clear in the first extended remarks since the debate, a fired up and energetic joe biden addressed the concerns of his own party head-on. watch. >> i don't walk as steady as i used to. i don't speak as well as i used to, and i don't debate as well as i used to, but i do know what i do know and i do know how to tell the truth. [ applause ] i know right from wrong. [ applause ] i know how to do this job. [ applause ] i know how to get things done. [ applause ] i know like millions of americans know, when you get knocked down, you get back up. >> president joe biden saying that i know how to tell the truth. obviously, meant to contrast himself to the ex-president, and the ex-president's almost nonstop flurry of lies and it took daniel dale nearly three minutes to fact-check his debate last night. this is some of it. >> what stood out was the staggering number of false claims from former president trump. on first count i counted at least 30 false claims. he said that democratic states allow babies to be executed after birth. that is not true. and he said that every legal scholar wanted abortion returned to the states and legal scholars have told me directly this is not true. he said that the u.s. has the biggest deficit and that is not true. and he said that biden gets money from china and zero evidence of this. and he said no terrorist attacks and there were. and he said that biden wants to quadruple people's tax, and this is pure fiction, and he said that the u.s. wanted to provide more aid, and that is false, and they wanted to provide $100 billion in aid, and this is not true. and he said that many of the migrants are from prisons or mental institutions. and that is a lie. he said that nancy pelosi turned down his offer of national guards, and there is no evidence that she got an offer. and he said that biden made up suckers and losers and no, "the atlantic" reported that and then it was recounted. >> and so that moment was tragically obscured in the debate, and after last night, one thing remains a stark choice between president joe biden and authoritarian movement led by a candidate whose instincts are that of an autocratic. and david fromm puts it like this, americans must save themselves, and the job cannot be delegated to some charismatic savior and that savior has yet to present himself or herself. television wants to put active human beings to passive viewers. television always wants to reduce that, and the job of saving democracy from trump is done not by an old man on a gaudy stage, but by those who care that democracy be saved. biden's elevated frailties have made it clear it is whose job it is. not his. yours. and joining us is our panel. and we have the reverend al sharpton and michael and kamau bell and also joining us is sid? >> they are looking at reasons not to vote for him like words of embarrassment and train wreck, and everybody thought that the debate was really terrible, but what is interesting to me was that it did not push anybody back into trump's column. right? what it did is that they believe that trump is a liar, and they believe he is a con man, and they still believe he is narcissist, and it was interesting to me to listen to them, because as i watched the debate, i was a little concerned that trump's demeanor which is not the same as sort of the big lunatic energy that you see from him often that it was to relieve voters to say, oh, trump seems more reasonable, but the voters were clocking all of the lies and they understood that donald trump was not telling the truth and that much of the stauns of the comments was crazy. but, look, biden's performance, they were also just really thought was terrible. they were concerned about his cognitive abilities and for the couple of the voters in the group who had been leaning towards biden, because they were sort of repulsed by trump, they were kind of back on the fence. i actually what you heard from a lot of them which i think is, maybe i don't know the most depressing is how many of them were thinking of just sitting it out or writing somebody in and much more third-party curious in this moment. i don't know if the moment lasts forever, but in this moment, they were back to thinking about rfk and so, yeah, i think that for people who maybe didn't have high expectation of joe biden to begin with, when you are talking to the double-haters, they are already concerned about joe biden's mental acuity and last night did not necessarily shock them, but it didn't do anything to bring them into biden's column which is what he needed to do last night, right. he needed to help the double-haters for whom their hatred is really for trump, but they think that joe biden is too old. he needed to convince them that he was up for the job, and that was not what got done. >> michael steel, i love what joe biden has done today and he has talked about the data-driven information from susan, but he said that i may not walk as well as i used to, and i won't in the deposition of the year 2024 say that you can still grovel women between the legs because that is what famous people have done for years and sometimes a volume of atrocities in terms of what trum has said and done that it is hard for anyone who has gone up against him going back to the primary in 2015 to focus. but i wonder what you make of where the voters seem to be processing last night's debate. >> well, you know, i think that there is kind of like, hmm, i don't know, and i think that sara's focus groups and her analysis of this is really putting her fingers on that piece of it. but that piece is not -- it is not necessarily bad for joe biden in terms of -- and it is really important to understand what sara said. those voters did not move back to trump. >> right. >> so those voters are still gettable, and persuadable, and those voters are quite honestly still looking for something to affirm the decision to talk, to move, to act in a way that says yeah, i will go with joe biden. last night, everybody knows in this moment, it was a cluster, and it did not help. it screwed all kinds of things up, but it is okay. it is okay, and you know why it is okay? because i knew that the man was 18 years old and how do you know that? because you renominated him, and you renominated a 78-year-old, so this is where we are. so take that crap off of this table. now, the democrats need to figure out, okay, what did we do last night, and you put your finger last night on something important here, nicolle, own this thing. don't run away from it, and it is very refreshing to see joe biden come out today and own it. i'm 81. i don't walk as well as i used to. i have a stutter and i mess up sentences, but i am not that guy. as an 81-year-old, i don't want to take the government and deconstruction it so that the things that you rely on and need are no longer done, and the more they begin to refrain the conversation taking into account the thing that they have been running away from, and this is his age, and own that, the more you expose donald trump for the charlatan and the liar and the putrid piece of humanity that he is, and that is what they need to do for the rest of the campaign and stop -- stop worrying and nervous nellying this conversation. democrats right now are their own worst enemy. the republicans are just sitting back and saying, we don't have to say anything about the debate, and let them do the talking, right. and they are talking their guy out of the race. as joe biden said, i am picking myself up and i am back in this thing. last night was not good. and y'all saw it, and i saw it. but this is what i want to do now, and i will stay in the fight for you. that narrative can be important if they, you know, find what they need to find to do it. >> i love, cornell, what michael steele is saying, and i am sitting in this real, real epiphany about the differences of the two parties and i try not to forget to express my gratitude for being welcomed into the democracy coalition, and michael and i sit there and i have more than abandoned the republican party, and there is this thing, because the democrats are so earnest of governing, they are so self-conscious of any flaws, right? so i think that republicans because this iteration of republicans is committed to maga which is about burning everything down, you know, they, it took the "access hollywood" tape for them to walk away temporarily and run not walk back to their man, and i am wondering what your thoughts are today and the sort of the difference of the dna in the two parties says about the path forward. >> well, this is fantastic, because this is actually where i was going to go and the reason i wanted to be on the show here today is to go here. and you know, nicolle, it is a thing as a southerner, we don't take well for people beating up on the south, but we will do it ourselves. all respect to the rev, the people most deeply engrained in campaign politic, i will say this. there is a perception out there that, and this is building on what chairman steele was saying that the democrats are not strong fighters and they don't fight for what they believe in, and if you are watching how the democrats are ran away from the man who beat trump and has delivered an extraordinary amount of various agenda in a historic way in the last couple of year, and if you saw the way they ran away from this man, because as a stutterer he has a hard time, and as an old man he has a hard time sometimes putting out the thoughts clearly in his speech, and if you saw the way they ran away from this man last night as a voter, it reinforces the idea that these are people who don't actually stand by and fight for the people they believe in. this is nothing new. i watched a complete meltdown on the left after the first obama/romneydebate. a complete meltdown. further back, there was a debate after bill clinton was behind ross perot double digits and a complete meltdown. the republicans will rally around and support their candidates no matter what. you are talking about a man who got 30-something felonies and on tape grabbing women by their private parts and adjudicate and found liable of sexual assault, and what the republican party has done is to rally around support and make it all right. most of the damage done by joe biden and the campaign today after the debate is not being done by the republicans, it is being done by the progressives and the democrats who are not rallying around the man who has delivered for them, but running away from the man who has delivered for them. i have to deal with reporters talking about democrats talking about a brokered convention, and i say, that is absolutely ridiculous and not something that can happen. but that is the democrats. you know what is going to happen going forward? it depends what the democrats do, and not what the republicans do, but depends if these democrats who are now panicking are going to rally around and support the man who brought them to the dance and delivered their isue agenda or whine and complain and cut and run from joe biden. it is a moment not for joe biden, but a moment for democrats. >> i, i -- i completely agree with you, cornell. i want to follow-up. i had this theory after hillary clinton's defeat that bernie sanders did as much damage to her as donald trump did. because if you were a voter, you heard the same lines of attack from hillary clinton and the far left to whatever trump is, the trump right. i wonder if this debate last night is sort of the beginning of democrats looking at this twice. i mean, you are not running against someone who is going to put in policies that you abhor. you are running against someone in a party that is so broken, that they have rallied behind a felon, a convicted felon who has -- and i mean, he is such a different figure than he was four years ago and a different figure than four months ago and we are living in post january 6th america, and post-liable sexual assault donald trump, and post convicted felon and awaiting sentencing for 34 felonies and facing dozens more, and who is going to be leading the conversation among the democrats to say, let's go, guys. you know, believe. who plays ted lasso in the next five months? >> well, all of us. one is that the vice president did not do a fantastic job last night supporting and standing in the president's corner. but i also think that you have somebody on the show right now who is going to be talking in a moment of how important it is to lead that conversation in reverend sharpton, and it is leaders in the progressive and the democratic spaces who respect it like that and say, hey, get it together. let's rally around our candidate. and another thing, quickly,ey w before i let this go, and we are campaign hack, but i don't know why i would have another presidential debate, why? why to the point that if there is no referees and your opponent can simply lie and make up whatever he or she wants to make up and lie, it is usually a he and dump it on television, then your opponent can say, that you are for killing babies and not a blink from the referees. why in the hell would i ever do another debate. >> well, we don't play sports like that, and there is not a league that lets you take a fist and punch somebody in the face in another sport, and no sporting event that plays the way that the debate was conducted last night with the decision made. plenty of time for joe biden to do all of the fact checking, but it is clear that mod rays or the -- mod rays or the did not take that on as their responsibility. i have to turn the floor over to the rev and i have to sneak in a quick break. the floor is his when we come back. and the democrats are rallying around the president after that strong performance in north carolina, and we will talk to one about donald trump's dangers for many years and we will check in with highlighting how important the 2024 election really is. the supreme court is issuing two huge decisions. one on how hundreds of january 6th rioters who stormed the capitol were prosecute and another is impacting how we regulate everything in this country from health care to the environment to the ability to make sure that the water that your kids drink is clean to the seat belts in your car. we will talk about it and more after "deadline, white house" continues in a moment. s in a m. and something serious may be behind those itchy eyes. up to 50% of people with graves' could develop a different condition called thyroid eye disease, which should be treated by a different doctor. see an expert. find a t-e-d eye specialist at isitted.com new projects means new project managers. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. when you sponsor a job, you immediately get your shortlist of quality candidates, whose resumes on indeed match your job criteria. visit indeed.com/hire and get started today. hi. i'm gina. i was really upset at the way i had let myself go. match your job criteria. my cravings were out of control. i had to do something. we all know it's important to take care of our health but it seems the trend is looking for a quick fix. and as a nurse it's really important to me what i put in my body. the main difference with golo is the way i felt. i wasn't jittery, my cravings went away. i felt satisfied and healthy and had tons of energy. give golo a shot you won't be sorry. i brought in ensure max protein with 30 grams of protein! those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks. -ugh. -here, i'll take that. woo hoo! ensure max protein, 30 grams protein, 1 gram sugar, 25 vitamins and minerals. and a new fiber blend with a prebiotic. (♪♪) when we're young, we're told anything is possible... and a new fiber ble ...but only a few of us go out and prove it. witness the greatness of anna hall on a connection worthy of gold: xfinity mobile. only xfinity gives you the most powerful mobile wifi network, with speeds up to a gig in millions of locations. and right now, xfinity internet customers can buy one unlimited line and get one free for a year. get the fastest connection to paris with xfinity. ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ chewy, a citi client, uses citi's financial expertise to help drive its growth and keep its supply chain moving, so more pet parents can get everything they need... right when they need it. keeping more pets, and families, happy. ♪♪ for the love of moving our clients forward. for the love of progress. how would you describe this? >> double frustrated. >> you? >> double cringe. the feeling inside is trump, hell no, because he lied through the whole thing, and biden, he is in bad shape and can he even run in the rest of the election or take the white house again. >> i came to watch to try to watch two relatively sane people talk about what they are going to do for the country, and we got two second graders having a slugfest on the playground. >> and the voters there in arizona talking to our colleague gadi schwartz after the debate last night, and we are back with michael, cornell and sara and the rev. ref, rev, the floor is yours. >> clearly, it was not a good performance by president biden, but it is revealing who donald trump was. donald trump was unrepentant in terms of what he has done the women's rights, and he literally started to talking about state's right, and in black community when you are talking about states' right, it is jim crow which one of the surrogates is saying that was the strongest period in our lives, and when you are looking at lie after lie that was told by donald trump, i think that is a lot of undecided people, and a lot of people who were leaning his way said, this is too much. yes, joe biden had a bad start, and he picked up steam later, and it was not his best night, but are we really going forget that here is a man who was vice president when barack obama and he inherited the economy that had gone through a real tough period with george bush. now, he had to come behind covid and mishandled by trump and bring us through another bad economy. he is the only person i know who went through two economic crisis revivals and did it. and now we have to worry about he had a bad night. it is not about joe biden's night, but our future. when you have a man standing there and saying that i am committed to stacking the supreme court to states supreme court to tates' rights and committed to someone on the other side who has fought on all of the issues, the question is what we are going to do and not what joe biden is going to do. and lastly, one of the guys that is republican, he said, your guy did terrible last night, but i thought that you said that he was going to be on the drugs and on the ups, and what happened to all of the scenarios that you have run down to the community that donald trump's mugshot turns us on like we are all criminals and thieves and that we identify with him because the system oppresses, and he is being oppressed by the blacks in new york and georgia and so it is what suppressed system. and so, what you played in a little while ago, nicolle, when joe biden says that when you fall down, you get back up, and he is talking to every disinherited american who identifies and the only thing that he has to do so get back up. he will use this as a launch for having fell down in front of the country last night. don't forget, donald trump has to be in court september 11th to be sentence and the parole officer has to be traveling around the country, and joe biden has to just keep getting up. >> so, sara, it slingsd from your group and ga dirks's group, and system of the things that i have seen, the -- it seems from your group and gadi's group, that the things that i have seen from the biden perspective, what is the next best move they can make? >> well, they need an honest conversation about what they can do. i don't agree with everybody on this panel, because last night was damaging. and there has to be introspection about that, and we can talk about how big of a liability that is, and nobody wants to beat donald trump more than i do, but to do that, you have to prosecute a case against donald trump there. are a million liabilities, and nicolle, you can rattle them off one after another and tings this that donald trump has done that make him morally, ethically, temperamentally why he should not be the president of the united states, but somebody has to do and that if it is not joe biden, then somebody has to go on offense, and the fact is that you have to make it a referendum on trump. and last night was the bigs -- biggest chance to make it referendumtrump, and we have to decide can he go on offense and every democrat make it a referendum on trump, because that is the only way to win over the american people, and look, the biggest coalition in america is an anti-trump coalition, and you have to hold that coalition together, and that job got harder last night and we should not lie to ourselves about that, and if you want to move forward, figure out how to pull that anti-trump coalition together, and that is joe biden doing better every single day, because it confirmed a loft people's worst fear last night. >> and cornell, that is look like a campaign, that i hope joe biden is comfortable to waging, and exceedingly negative and no truth stretched, but the brutal facts of donald trump, and he is boasting about stealing the state's secrets and no qualms about lying about intelligence agencies and he is a man who boasts about inciing a insurrection that almost killed his own vice president, and he is a man who in favor of women being grabbed between their most private part, and he is unrependent, and the answer to sarah's question, can he make that case? >> and that is fair. as a campaign hack, how do you solve his problem? if joe biden were here beside me, he would not disagree terribly with the statement. joe biden at 40 was not who we thought was a great campaigner, and he has never been historically a great campaigner, and he is not going to turn to bill clinton or barack obama overnight. so, sarah is right that we have to be clear that we are less reliant of one person prosecuting a case than a chorus. the biggest voice in politics right now is a downside to that actually and the biggest downside is social media, so i don't necessarily think it is the president and the vice president, but it is the surrogate and the influencer and also to that point again, the democrats around the country leaning in and helping to prosecute the case, and it is such a big case that joe biden cannot prosecute the case even if he did have the skills of barack obama. >> that is right. that is right. i want to do more on this idea of the social media and the influencers, because some of what keeps the cable news in its own bubble of our own making is a lack of humility of the limits of the reach. i think that david plouffe was talking about this and sarah, you see this, but the people who are making the final decisions are not going to be seeing these segments, and i will try to push through, and put yourselves on notice, and we will try to get to that monday. and thank you all for sharing the voters with us, and we are appreciative with you. and michael steele, please stick around and we will be joined by the congressman eric swalwell when we come back. back. and the chance at clear or almost clear skin. it's like the feeling of finding you're so ready for your close-up. or finding you don't have to hide your skin just your background. once-daily sotyktu was proven better, getting more people clearer skin than the leading pill. don't take if you're allergic to sotyktu; serious reactions can occur. sotyktu can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections, cancers including lymphoma, muscle problems, and changes in certain labs have occurred. tell your doctor if you have an infection, liver or kidney problems, high triglycerides, or had a vaccine or plan to. sotyktu is a tyk2 inhibitor. tyk2 is part of the jak family. it's not known if sotyktu has the same risks as jak inhibitors. find what plaque psoriasis has been hiding. there's only one sotyktu, so ask for it by name. so clearly you. sotyktu. the cockroach. resilient creatures. true miracles of evolution. where there is one, others aren't far behind. always scavenging for food, the cockroach... well that's horrifying. ortho home defense max indoor insect barrier. one application kills and prevents bugs for 365 days. not in my house you don't. nature is wild. your home doesn't have to be. wealth-changing question -- are you keeping as much of your investment gains as possible? 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>> no, i have not seen speaker jeffrey, but he has already functionally been the speaker of the house, and delivering in the house what matters to americans, keeping the government open, funding ukraine and paying the bills and as the formal speaker can be the flame to finish the policies of joe biden or be the firewall against donald trump. that's what i am focused on right now. as democrats, we can be at the worst when we are bedwetting and soaking through the mattress, but at the best boosting the leaders of the country. again, joe job, and that is who biden is, and that story needs to be told immediately. >> real quick, why you think that joe biden did not tell that story last night? >> well, look, he hasn't debated in four years. i think that it needs to be much simpler, and the message has to be simpler, and we don't need numbers or homework and this is not a harvard course and we need a gut check. if you wanted a job when you were in the unemployment line under joe biden, you got a job, and you got a job that paid more, and this is how we need to simplify it when he goes up against donald trump again and on the trail across the country for the next four months. >> congressman eric swalwell as promised, we turned the floor over to you, and you had some great advice for democrats on this day where i know that there is still some pockets of anxiety. thank you for spending time with us and addressing it head on. we will have much more with michael steele and the rev. don't go anywhere. 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just a few years ago to be exact, 3 1/2 years ago, i happened to be in charleston, south carolina, after the democratic debate having a breakfast, and all of the candidates came. joe biden hadn't -- had just entered race, and he was beaten in new hampshire, and he had taken on senator clyburn, and so, he has taken some licking, but he keeps on ticking. and when people are talking about a brokered convention and people should stop out, and i say, one, up to him, but second, who steps in that you can tell me can beat donald trump, and the only one that i know who has beat him is joe biden, and you have counted him out all of the way down to the south carolina primary. >> and michael steele, as the media, we have spent almost a grotesque amount of time trying to understand the bond of trump and his base. and compared to that very small amount of time to understand joe biden's tie to his. i think that what the rev is getting at, and something that has been missed by the sort of elite media is that people see themselves in joe biden's resilience, and having to overcome to stutter. they see him in the agony of losing a child, a wife and a daughter and in parenting someone who struggles with the disease of addiction, and nobody can see themselves in him having to watch his own government prosecute his own son and then saying that he loves this country so much and the rule of law that he won't pardon him, and that is almost next level. but there about the voters and biden base's ties to biden that i think really is underscored by that clip from today's speech. >> there's a lot, there's a lot in which you just said. and the narratives to me, as they've come about in this campaign, at once are very frustrating how they're covered by the media overall. donald trump has been given a license by the media that i think has contributed mightily to a lot of this. the format -- i liked that debate last night, and i know there are a lot of technical issues that people can say about not having the moderators push back and all that. but the one thing i will say about it is that it did level up and expose everything. we know, we've level set this race. we now know what it looks like. we now know who these people are. we see the flaws of an elderly president who as he admitted in that north carolina speech has trouble walking, and yeah, the word don't come out as cleanly and smoothly as some would like. but what you also saw was on the other side of him a rabid, ravenous, ego maniacal individual who made everything about him. who even in the face of his own 34 convictions said, oh, yeah, well, the president's son is convicted, he's convicted at a higher level. what at a higher level than you as president, as the former president with 34 convictions? so it was clarifying on so many levels last night. but here's the rub for me -- today the media is doing another horse race. who's going to replace joe biden? what -- who's favorable, who's not favorable? could you stop the bs, please? because that race isn't happening. tell us the story of the race that is happening, and that's the important part that i think gets missed often. >> let's listen to joe biden. he's right now at an event in new york city. [ applause ] >> for generations been at the forefront of helping realize the promise of america, for all americans. look, in 2016 president obama, i was his vice president at the time, designated christopher parr as a national monument. today i am proud to unveil a new visitors center for stonewall national monument. the first-ever lgbtq-plus visitors center in the national parks of america. [ cheers and applause ] and it matters -- it matters. we remain in a battle for the soul of america. i know i said that for a while now. people looked at me when first said it like i was kidding. i'm not. we're in the battle for the soul of america. but i look around at the pride, hope, and light that all of you, all of you bring, i know it's a battle we're going to win and continue to make progress. lgbtq-plus people are some of the most inspiring people i know. and of course the courage -- you know, i talk to a lot of younger lgbtq people in their teens and 20s. and i remind them, for a lot of people who started this operation, you took your life in your own hands. not figuratively, literally. took your jobs in your own hands. you were put up in a position where you were -- had so much to lose, and you still did it. you still did it. i remember my dad was dropping my off to get a license to be a lifeguard in wilmington, delaware, at the swimming pools. i got out of the car in rodney square, they call it. and that's where the dupont building is and the hercules corporation, all in that one corridor. and two well-dressed men were kissing each other. i hadn't seen that before. i looked at my dad -- i was 16 years old -- looked at my dad, he said, it's simple, joey, they love each other. it's simple. [ cheers and applause ] he was a good man, and your courage and contributions enrich every part of american life. you set an example, i'm not exaggerating, for the entire world. that's what this center, this monument, this month is all about. so today let's proudly remember who we are. we're the united states of america, and there's nothing beyond our capacity if we work together. and everyone deserves to be treated with dignity and respect no matter what their background, period, period, period. [ cheers and applause ] as you can tell, i want to say a hell of a lot more, but not going to because i want to hear a guy, you know -- there's a guy that you've probably heard about. he's a dear good friend. a guy like so many americans whose family loves this iconic -- and of course his incredible music career he also empowered countless people to be themselves, to be treated with dignity and respect they deserve, including those in the fight against hiv/aids. a fight he led with sheer willpower. two years ago jill and i had the honor to host him at the white house and bestow on him the national humanitarian -- humanities medal, one of america's highest awards. today we're honored to be with him again here at stonewall. please welcome elton john. [ cheers and applause ] ♪♪ >> i want to listen to that. keep watching the monitor. any more news made by the president and his guest. i want to thank mike steele and al sharpton. these issues are not all easy, but they're important. next, two decisions leased by the super conservative united states supreme court underscore what we're talking about. the stark choice and the stakes facing every last one of us in november. do we want to live in a country that supports democracy or a slide toward autocracy? the next hour of "deadline: white house" starts after a quick break. ter a quick break. a long time ago. and year after year, you weathered the storm and just lived with the damage that was left behind. but even after all this time your thyroid eye disease could still change. restoration is still possible. learn how you could give your eyes a fresh start at tedhelp.com. i'm trevor and i lost 132 pounds on golo. at 26 years old my doctor wanted to put me on medication and i wasn't having that. i tried other diets and they just didn't work didn't last. release worked fast. after a week i had more energy, mental clarity, and my cravings were gone. i've lost 132 pounds and i will never, ever, gain that weight back. thanks to golo. (vo) you might be used to living with your albuterol asthma rescue inhaler, but it's a bit of a dinosaur, because it only treats your symptoms, not inflammation. treating both symptoms and inflammation with rescue is supported by asthma experts. finally, there's a modern way to treat symptoms and asthma attacks. airsupra is the first ever dual-action rescue inhaler that treats your asthma symptoms and helps prevent attacks. airsupra is the only rescue fda-approved to do both. airsupra is an as-needed rescue inhaler and should not be used as a maintenance treatment for asthma. get medical help right away if your breathing does not improve, continues to worsen, or for serious allergic reactions. using airsupra more than prescribed could be life threatening. serious side effects include heart problems, increased risk of thrush or infections. welcome to the modern age of dual-action asthma rescue. ask your doctor if airsupra is right for you. donald trump is a genuine threat to this nation. he's a threat to our freedom, a threat to our democracy. he's literally a threat to everything america stands for. look, he doesn't understand what i think all of you do -- america is the finest and most unique nation in the world. >> hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in the east. still feeling the aftershocks of last night's debate. the country now refocusing its attention on the usually consequential -- hugely consequential choice before it in november. no matter what anyone thinks of last night's debate, if they happened to watch it or either of the candidate, what is unchanged at this hour is that november's election is a fundamental, unprecedented choice between drastically different ideologies and vision for the future of this country whether it remains a democracy. a choice between just that, democracy versus a slide toward autocracy. voters cannot forget how the republican presumptive nominee incited a deadly insurrection, how he cozies up to and flatters autocrats while pushing forward an agenda that replicates theirs, and who has no respect for the rule of law in america. underscoring the stakes of the election in november even further, newly released decisions by the u.s. supreme court earlier today. the conservative supermajority which includes three of the justices handpicked by donald trump himself, overturned a 40-year-old precedent taking aim at the power of federal agencies to function. the chevron ruling, as the scotus puts it, cuts back sharply on the power of federal agencies to interpret the laws they administer and ruled that courts should rely on their own interpretation of ambiguous laws. the decisions will likely have far-reaching effects across the country from environmental regulation to health care costs. today also saw the court rule in favor of the january 6th insurrectionist who challenged his obstruction of official proceeding charge. that ruling which we will dive into a little deeper in a minute could have an impact on hundreds of other january 6th prosecutions, as well. there's still more to come for this highest court in the land. the supreme court has indicated that on monday, that will be the final day, and on monday we will find out just how extreme this court really is when it releases its final decision on donald trump's claim that a president should be immune from prosecution. it will be a momentous decision. we'll see if this court believes that donald trump or any president is above the law in the united states of america. it's where we start the hour with some of our favorite experts and friends. senior editor and host of amicus podcast, lucky back with us. also joining us, executive director of fix the court, gabe roth. former top prosecutor at doj, legal analyst andreau weis man. for you -- i need -- andrew weissman. can you remind me what this decision is and what the opinion does? >> maybe i would say this, that -- i think that watching the sort of horse race of last night's presidential debate is a conversation about stakes. chevron is it. chevron is real stakes, and if you look at what the supreme court did today, i think it's fair to say that whatever horse race is going on in the presidential contest, there's like a tank division moving in that's going to change the way we all live our lives regardless of who wins the horse race. so chevron is essentially shorthand for a long-standing tradition that says that if there's an ambiguous statute, the courts defer to the agency itself and their interpretation of how to read that statute. why? because agencies are teeming with people who know science and understand how the climate works and who understand how health care works and who understands how guns work. essentially the court said, nope, from here on in we're going to give courts the power to decide how agency regulations are interpreted. and i don't want to be in any way alarmist about this, but this is a wholesale transfer of power over federal regulatory agencies. clean water, clean air, guns, health care, monetary policy, all of it is shifted now away from federal agencies and into the laps of courts. and i think the last very, very cynical thing i'm going to say is that the supreme court can't even control its own website this week, downloading, uploading opinions before they're ready to go. it is hard to understand how they can have the kind of expertise to talk about nuanced things like climate and health care if they can't even sort out their own in-house procedures. >> well, it's a pretty profound point. it sounds small, but it gets to the essence of what this decision does. i appreciate everything that you said, and especially this contrast and this warning almost to be careful if you dabble in horserace analysis because nothing less than the future of our government to function is already on the line, is already at stake. and i would -- the only thing i would say is you're not being alarmist but justice kagan was. let me read, quote, in one fell swoop the majority today gives its exclusive power over every open issue no matter how expertise driven or policy laden involving the meaning of regulatory law, as if it did not have enough on its plate, the majority turns itself into the country's administrative czar. that is an alarm the likes of which i don't know that we've -- we've seen this term, dahlia. >> the other thing i would just point out that justice kagan does, and this is familiar to those of us who remember the dissent in dobbs, is her dissent here is really about what it means when the majority willy-nilly reverses precedent without doing so carefully, without thoughtfully assessing what it is that's happening. and you know, we've talked so much in the last months about the need for stability and predictability in the law. and what she's warning in addition to this kind of wholesale power grab by the courts that i think frankly you're right, terrifies her. i think the other thing she's saying is every precedent is on the line. this is now a decision that if it gets five votes, precedent is gone. and again, we have organized our lives for four decades on the proposition that this is how government works, that regulatory agencies should feel free to try to do their best to regulate complicated social problems and to have that just go away in the blink of an eye without much understanding of what it is to reverse that precedent is almost the most chilling part of this for justice kagan. >> andrew weissman, let me read more from justice kagan's dissent, quote it barely tries to advance the usual factors this court invokes for overruling precedent. its justification comes down to this -- courts must have more say over regulation, over the provision of health care, the protection of the environment, the safety of consumer products, the efficacy of transportation systems, and so on. a long-standing precedent at the crux of administrative governance, thus falls victim to a bald assertion of judicial authority. the majority disdeigns restraint and grasps for power. wow. i -- i've read that now four times only out loud twice, and that just -- that feels like -- that just feels so profound to me. the majority disdeigns restraint and grasps power. >> well, as somebody who understands what republicans in this country stand for, that's what's so remarkable here. because the court is supposed to be a body that -- according to republican orthodoxy, what used to be republican orthodoxy, was restraint of the courts because it's viewed as a sort of anti-democratic check. and that is what she is saying, it is not. in some ways in is a real wake-up call from last night because it tells you if you didn't know this from dobbs, you know this from this decision that the supreme court is so on the ballot. for those of us in the legal field, it's hard to stress enough what dahlia's saying because it's not just that this changes the fundamental way in which the courts have dealt with the administrative state, certainly at least since fdr. but it also because of the complete lack of respect for precedent, it just signals that this court is willing to do to chevron, to roe versus wade, and if it goes forward in a trump 2.0, like everything's on the table. that is the message from the decision today more than any of the cases that we've seen this term. this is such a clarion call for why it is so important for people who disagree with what's going on to get to the ballot box and to really think about the supreme court in the way that republicans for decades have thought about the supreme court being a fundamental institution they wanted to change. >> i mean, andrew, what uncorks this -- all of them, did they lie in their confirmation hearings when they described precedent and super precedents, and if you're not a lawyer or supreme court watcher you understand that, but they won't touch things that have been there a long time. what uncorks them and turns them into this really, really active agitated sort of burn it all down bodi? >> you know, i don't know -- and i also don't know if there's an answer for all of the justices. i think there's an answer for alito and thomas that may be different than amy coney barrett and chief justice roberts. and the reason i sort of single out amy coney barrett is she has issued some fairly interesting decisions in the last couple weeks. indeed we're going to talk about the obstruction decision. and she actually writes the dissent. and so, you know, you do get the sense of a mind that is thinking and that is not just a kneejerk reaction to side automatically with what you know justice alito is going to think. but i think for justice alito, he is leading a charge that is very much a sort of what i would call a maga justice. just seems so unthoughtful and so untethered to the facts, and a complete disrespect for decades of other jurists. as if the other people who served on the supreme court were a bunch of bumpkins. i mean, there's just the whole idea of what's called stare decisis where you're supposed to say i may disagree with a prior decision, but it cannot be that just because the composition of the court changes that you're suddenly going to overturn a decision from last week or last year, and there's supposed to be this sense of continuity. once a decision is made, it's supposed to take a lot to overturn it. and that i think is the thing that i thought was just so fundamentally upsetting about the decision today was that there was no really good argument for why suddenly now chevron was gone in such a bold sweeping way. i thought their treatment of precedent just signaled to me that if you think dobbs was the end of where the court was going to go, to me this decision means, no, that's the beginning. >> gabe, dobbs was something that you didn't have to be an expert in the supreme court or the law to understand because it affected every woman's life. chevron affects every element of american life, as well, but it's more -- it's a more complicated story to tell. can you start trying to tell that story for us? >> sure. the federal government has millions of employees, and many are experts in their field, as dahlia mentioned, from folks ensuring that our water and our air is clean to our medicine and our food are safe. and those individuals work for the executive branch. and sometimes when congress writes a law about medicine or food or health, the language is ambiguous, and that's sort of the nature of language. if language wasn't ambiguous, you know, your show would be, you know, 30 seconds long with -- potus overturned opinions from lower courts, end of show, and dead air for 59 1/2 minutes. the language is ambiguous. it's worth talking things out. sometimes that means deferring to experts in the field. unfortunately what today we have is the justices, as dahlia mentioned, air gating a lot of that power to themselves. and to me it's not just the supreme court that is going to be doing it. there will be earthquakes and aftershocks that we will be feeling for decades. and you have lower court judges appointed by presidents of both parties, but you know, so pick the ones you like and pick the ones who you don't like. you're going to have maybe half a dozen cases about chevron coming down the next couple years. but you're going to have tens of thousands of cases in the lower courts where there's going to be an ambiguous agency action and you'll have lower court judges, unelected officials deciding things about water and air and medicine and health care and the like. and you know, if you don't like what an agency is doing, you vote out their boss every four years. the agency head is beholden to a president, and the presidents change every four to eight years. you don't have that in the federal judiciary. the supreme court justices serve for life, lower court justices serve for life. if you view the end of chevron in one way and it's not great for air or water, that will be the prevailing view for potentially decades unless congress passes a law that brings some of the power back to our elected officials. >> gabe, let me ask you to jump in on the political conversation that i'm so grateful to all of you we're having side by side. that's something american people are experiencing these decisions. they have unprecedented levels of skepticism and questions about the supreme court because of these decisions. this is something justice sotomayor said at harvard last month. i've played it before, but in the context of justice kagan's dissent i want to play it again. >> we did go backwards in dobbs. i've said it in my dissent, so i'm not saying something new, okay. we've taken away a right. and we've never done that in our history. mind you, there are days that i've come to my office after an announcement of a case and closed my door and cried. there have been those days. and there are likely to be more. >> you take what she's saying, you take what justice kagan has written, and it feels like the warnings and the calls are coming from inside the house, gabe. >> yeah. look, this is a very upsetting time i would imagine to be a liberal justice on the supreme court. primarily with dobbs obviously. that was the earthquake of all earthquakes. and i think justice sotomayor was referring to that when she was talking about closing her door and crying. there are other opinions that overturn precedents like today's decision that not only liberals aren't going to like but conservatives have to breathe the air and drink the water, too, and take the medicine and eat the food. so you know, i think that though there have been some monied interests that want the end of the chevron, that want the outcome, they may come to regret it if every city's drinking water is like flint's in five years. >> it's a remarkable moment. dahlia, just quickly, how are you thinking about this decision as we look forward to monday? >> i mean, i'm thinking about this decision actually in light of another case that we don't have time to discuss in depth. but today the court made it easier to go after the homeless who are sleeping in parks out west. and if justice sotomayor's dissent she's so careful to explain why there is homelessness, and she talks about housing policy. and she talks about climate change policy. and she essentially says this whole administrative state that's like obscure and abstract to you, this is the reason people are sleeping in parks, or part of the reason. so i just want to connect it up to what you said about justice sotomayor. the supreme court is causing some of these problems, and then turning around and making it impossible for agencies to solve them. it's really, really important to look at both what's coming on monday, and i would say today, and think of it through the lens gabe is offering up which is these are going to affect real people's real lives every single day. and so to think of it as an abstraction i think is to make it something we all say we have no skin in the game. every single one of us, i think sotomayor is saying, has skin in the game. because the way our lives are organize sudden by a court that is making sure that very, very wealthy people find it easier to bribe or i guess give gratuities, and the very, very poor people have nowhere to sleep. >> well, i think that what you're saying and you are diplomatic about it, dahlia, that's why we love you so much. is we need to look after monday at everything they've done, and then everything we have in the dissents and every -- you know, it's rare and precious and there's sort of these breadcrumbs, things uttered publicly. we need to connect the dots. they've given us enough, and all we have to do is the work and -- we'll do that. i take your point and appreciate it. no one's going anywhere. we have another huge decision today from the supreme court to tell you about. the ruling that prosecutors, the supreme court held this, that prosecutors went too far in charging a january 6th rioter with obstruction of an official proceeding. we'll tell you what that means for the prosecutions of members of the trump mob that attacked the u.s. capitol that day, as well as the case against the disgraced and convicted ex-president himself after a very short break. plus, the states in the battle to save american democracy from the wannabe autocrat are higher and more urgent than ever before. our political panel will weigh in on what needs to be done right now, today, in the wake of last night's first debate later in the broadcast. 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( ♪ ♪ ) start your day with nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. want to save on some of the biggest names in streaming on the # the network made forded streaming? x marks the spot. now you can add the new xfinity streamsaver™ that includes netflix, peacock, and apple tv+. that's xfinity streamsaver™ for just $15 a month. all your favorites. all in one place. only from xfinity. for more watching and less spending... x marks the spot. do it all on the network made for streaming, and bring on the good stuff. the supreme court today essentially ruling against the ability of a democracy to hold people accountable that threaten it. they used what the dissenting justices called text actually back flips to find some way, any way to side with this guy. the january 6th rioter who you see here in a physical confrontation with police officers inside the u.s. capitol on january 6th. the ruling narrows an obstruction charge in his case and could impact the department of justice's reliance that charge, on that law in its prosecution of hundreds of other january 6th defendants, including one convicted felon who happens to be ex-president donald trump. the three dissenters were justice sonia sotomayor, elena kagan, and as andrew weissmann previewed, trump appointee barlt barrett who writes, quote, the court does not dispute that congress' join session qualifies as an official proceeding. the rioters delayed the proceeding or fischer'sallied conduct was part of the effort to force three halt the certification of the election results. given these premesis, the case that fischer can be tried for obstructing influenced or impeding is open and shut. why does the court hold otherwise? it cannot believe at that congress believes what is said. that is chilling. >> so i think there are a couple things that are really worth noting because i think a lot of the reporting -- sort of getting this wrong. one, there's sort of the trump take on this which is that somehow this shows that the department of justice overreached and was doing so politically. it is really important to remember not just that you have this very, very well-written dissent led by amy coney barrett. as you note, a trump appointee. but of the 15 trial judges who heard this exact issue, 14 of the 15 including three trump appointees agreed with the government's view of the obstruction statute. this was not some outlier, some -- some off-the-wall theory. this was, in fact, how everyone had been interpreting this including very conservative judges and -- and at least one very conservative supreme court justice. the second is that i think that although i disagree with the opinion, the majority opinion, it is -- i do not think because they sort of carefully narrowly circumscribed how they were limiting the instruction statute, i don't think it will have any effect whatsoever on the trump january 6th indictment. the real issue there is the one we're waiting for on monday which is will that ever go to trial. i don't think that the obstruction charges there will be affected by this decision. nor with respect to the 1,400 or so january 6th cases, this is going to have a minimal effect on their cases. let me give a quick example. mr. fischer, who is the lead plaintiff here, he's charged with other felonies including assaulting officers. those charges stand and as ketanji brown jackson says in her concurrence, he may still be able to be charged under the new reading of the obstruction statute. so i think that although i disagree with the decision, i think it's narrower than anticipated, and it should leave the government with ample room to continue prosecutions. >> gabe, as someone who's sort of rather new to trying to discern the tea leaves, i rely almost 100% -- 100%, not almost, 100%, on all of you to make sense of it for me. i went back and tried to understand why they took this case in the first place. for all the reasons andrew just articulated. do you have an answer to that? >> i mean, typically justices take cases when they believe the lower courts' interpretation was wrong, if there was a circuit split. you know, this is sort of a new area of law or a new use of section 1512-2 -- the law, to the charge in an obstruction -- in an obstruction case related to the capitol riot. this is a law that was related to sarbanes-oxley or enron or other things that had nothing to do with the non-peaceful transfer of power. so it was a bit of a new application. so i think that scotus weighing in not on first incident as was mentioned 15 trial judges weighed in already. but it was sort of a new statutory interpretation case and sometimes scotus likes to take that pitch and hit it. you know, to the other points, you know, the vast majority of people who committed crimes, something like 94% of them, on january 6th are still going to be tried under all the other felonies they committed. i wouldn't read too much into what's going to come down monday. monday the trump immunity case does not have a ton to do with this one specific section of federal law. i think that monday, you know, we're going to have nine justices telling us nine different things. who knows what the lineup is going to be. we'll have to wait and see. i wouldn't read too much into what's going to come down monday based on what happened today. >> so dahlia, this is our last show, our last sort of 30 minutes before -- the next time we all meet we will know what the supreme court decided on presidential immunity. how are you -- what are you expecting? what is sort of the borders in which we should be prepared to hear what they decided on immuniti? >> i would probably say two things, and one of them is something you've heard andrew and i say for weeks now on your show which is it's really i think signaling something very, very frightening and sobering that the court will release this decision, which should have been an easy, you know, summary affirmance of the appeals court decision in the winter that would have allowed this to already be starting. this is happening moments before they end the term and take their vacations. that's a really, i think, a very, very worrying piece of signaling about how important this is. and then i just think to pick up where gabe left off, you know, you asked him why did the court take this case. i stupidly at one point in my career, i guess i'd call it five months ago, thought that the court wanted to say something important and profound about what happened on january 6th across the street from where they sit. i really thought this case in tandem with the anderson case, in tandem with the immunity case was an opportunity for majority of the court to say we may differ on politics, we may differ on donald trump, we may differ on every single thing including chevron, but what we don't differ is on people shouldn't storm the capitol, assault and murder people, and try to disrupt the orderly transfer of power. i really believed i would say in this case or in anderson the colorado ballot case language suggesting that the court across the partisan lines found that horrific and untenable and undemocratic. the recitation in this case in fischer of what happened on january 6th was about as bloodless as it can get. and it's left again to the dissenters to sketch what happened on january 6th. and so i worry, deeply, deeply about whatever comes down in the issues immunity case on -- on the immunity case on monday. that the court having the opportunity to say whatever else is okay, what is not okay is what happened on january 6th, what is not okay is summoning a mob to storm the capitol because you don't like the election results. i didn't see that today, and i worry deeply, deeply that i'm not going to see that language on monday. >> i would like to associate myself with all of your deep worry. dahlia, gabe, andrew, the very best of best. thank you so much for having this conversation with us. to be continued on monday i'm sure. one more note from the supreme court today. this afternoon the court rejected former trump adviser steve bannon's emergency application to stay out of jail. it was an unsigned opinion. steve bannon who was sentenced to four months in prison in october of 2022 took its case to the last possible stop, the highest court in the land, asking the court to allow him to remain out of prison while he appeals his conviction of contempt of congress which they have no officially denied in that unsigned opinion. steve bannon will have to report to prison on monday. when we come back, the stakes of the election were already sky high. they are even more so after last night's debate. the question facing democrats today -- what do you do when the person you have picked to defend and protect and preserve democracy in america from its authoritarian threat is in your view, in your telling not the strongest messenger? we'll have that conversation after a short break. sation after a short break. what is cirkul? cirkul is the fuel you need to take flight. cirkul is the energy that gets you to the next level. cirkul is what you hope for when life tosses lemons your way. cirkul, available at walmart and drinkcirkul.com. two things are true about the last 18 hours. my god, only 18? it feels like 68 hours. the second is the supreme court is making those decisions we've discussed this hour. they've injected rocket fuel into our ability to talk about and understand the stakes of the 2024 election. their chevron ruling paves the way for a second-term donald trump presidency to act on the far right's darkest, deepest fantasies. things like never before wholesale top-to-bottom deconstruction of the administrative state. what steve bannon promised. deconstruction of our federal government is on the table, something they're talking about doing. the fischer decision ensures that whatever trump worshipping entity takes its place will be institutionally more forgiving to those who would invade our capitol to help him retain power. again, the stakes are going up as we speak. the third thing that's true about the last 18 hours is that democrats in a way they've never done so before are openly talking to reporters like myself and others about whether president joe biden represents their best foot forward to defeat trump and trumpism in everything that he threatens. there's one thing that has not changed in the last 18 hours or 18 months, and that is the cold, hard, undeniable truth that of the choices we face for november, one candidate instigated a violent insurrection on our democracy. the other did not. he sought to protect the democracy. that, folks, is the choice we have in november. joining our conversation, former republican congressman and msnbc political analyst david joggy. also joining us msnbc political analyst host of "the bulwark" podcast, spokesman for the rnc, tim miller. and author of "strong men leading to the present" is here. david jolly, i've tried to set this up and get out of the way. your thoughts today? >> i think last night changed everything. i think going into yesterday there was a sustaining argument that this race wasn't about hate, it was about idealogy. it wasn't about age, it was about leadership. it wasn't about age, about fitness. donald trump didn't tell us to inject bleach into our veins because he was old. he did it because he's stupid. he didn't get convicted because of his age. he got convicted for fraud. he didn't abandon hate of his age, he abandoned nato because of a lack of leadership. last night made in race about age, specifically about joe biden's age. and i think where democrats today from barack obama on down are making the contrast argument in response to what we saw last night, they are fundamentally misreading the room. the american voters who are shocked by last night aren't shocked by the contrast. many of them missed the contrast. many people didn't even actually hear what was said between the candidates. they were shocked and saddened by what they saw of their president. and i think that's the -- the coda to all of this, that what they saw last night raised concern not about democratic nominee joe biden but about their president, about our president. we haven't had a national conversation around a president's age since ronald reagan's second term. but we're having it now. so the contrast arguments that democrats are making today are important, perhaps it's the only argument available to them. but the shock and sadness that many americans are feeling is they don't know how to reconcile this issue now of joe biden's age. he's not asking to serve until next january, he's asking to serve until january of 2029. and a lot of americans are now asking themselves is that the right decision? is he the right person for november? joe biden has done something nobody else did, he stopped donald trump. it's a remarkable service to the country. that's an incredible first term. heats making a case -- he's making a case for a second term. what landed in people's lap was the president's age, not his idealogy, not his policies. perhaps what we saw in north carolina today if replicated can address that. he can hit it head on. if he is the candidate, that's how democrats survive the next four months. the contrast argument is already in place. the american voters now, at least many of them, are wrestling with their own president's age as a national question, not as a political question. and that's where democrats i think have to address that more head on than they are actually doing today. >> tim miller? >> i appreciate that, representative jolly said that. i think there are people that believe that are believing that and saying it publicly. ied -- i would add that indition to doing the duties as president, to save our democracy because of the stakes you laid out, need to be able to deliver a coherent argument that reaches people about why donald trump is so dangerous. and as for the rally today, that's nice. i'm happy that joe biden had a good rally this afternoon. the people that are going to see that, that is reassuring democratic partisans to pay attention to politics, that already know the stakes, that watch the show, that understand the threat. the people that watched last night, the 50 million that saw it live, and the 50-plus million that are going to see little clips on tiktok and instagram who don't pay that close attention, they were not given anything to work with by joe biden last night. he did not deliver a single coherent argument against the most unfit person ever to run for any office in this country, donald trump. there are plenty of things that he could have tacked donald trump on, unlimited. we talk about them here all the tile. he wasn't up for doing it. so when i see the messages from barack obama and bill clinton and everybody today, they beared no resemblance to the conversation i'm having with disappointment elected officials in office now. none of them think that joe biden is a nice man and donald trump is a bad man is good enough. it's true. we all know it's true. i love joe biden. i think he's been a good president. but if we're going to save this democracy, we've got to do better than joe biden is a good man and donald trump's a bad man. we've got to be able to convince the voters that have not yet been convinced that donald trump represents an existential threat to this country, and that joe biden is a better bet. and if joe biden isn't capable of making that argument, then we have time, about a month, to find somebody else who can. and if he is capable of making it, then what we saw in raleigh today we need to see over and over and over again in our face, not the same campaign he's been running. more. he needs to prove it to people. and he need to have a serious conversation with his advisers about how he can prove it to people. otherwise, it's a reality check. i know some people aren't happy to hear this. we were losing. joe biden was losing before the debate last night. so you cannot believe the polls if you want, but in the same polls that joe biden is losing in pennsylvania, bob casey, the democrat, is winning. in the same polls he's losing in wisconsin is, tammy baldwin is winning. why is that? not because the polls are rigged. there's a set of voters that tonight know if joe biden's -- don't know if joe biden's up for it. this was his opportunity to reassure them. he tint do it. he's got to -- didn't do it. he's got to figure out how to do it now or figure out a plan b. >> it takes some courage to tell the truth about this moment. it is something i'm grateful to both of you for doing. i want to bring ruth in on all of this. i have to sneak in a quick break first. please all of you stay with us. we'll continue this conversation on the other side. nversation on the other side. i know you love your dada. of course he loves you, he just doesn't show it on his face. or with his body language. 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[ surprised scream ] don't panic. gift easy with etsy. our right to reproductive health care is being stolen from us. i can't believe this is the world we live in, where we're losing the freedom to control our own bodies. we need your support now more than ever. go online, call, or scan this code, with your $19 monthly gift. and we'll send you this "care. no matter what" t-shirt. it is your right to have safe health care. that's it. go online, call, or scan right now. david, tim, and ruth are back with us. ruth, i want to turn the floor over to you. i want to say that what david and tim are saying is probably going to agitate a lot of our viewers and upset them. but our viewers should know that people inside and outside biden's innermost circle, people who describe themselves as, quote, loving him, three of them, said the very same thing, had the same analysis. so i invite yours and i'd love your thoughts about what we do next. >> i come at this from a different perspective. i study professional liars who are very charming, they're amazing performers, and they turn political events into spectacles for authoritarian purposes. now if we think about this, quote, debate, a real debate in a democracy is supposed to provide voters with accurate information so they can make a choice. trump came there for a totally different purpose, an authoritarian purpose, to spew as much propaganda, as many lies as possible. and he got a lot in. so he could indoctrinate people to his fake reality. and so biden was placed in a very difficult position because there was no live fact checking. we know from studying propaganda you've got to have instant refutation. so number one, it's really kind of sad that because trump lied with such vigor, with such dynamism, he's hailed as the winner. the other thing is, and you can substitute x for biden if you have a favorite alternate democrat, that person would have been stuck refuting all of trump's lies the whole time because of the lack of live fact checking from moderators, and thus wouldn't have been able to make his or her case to the american public about the agenda. and trump knows all that. and so in a way, this debate -- i'm not glossing over the terrible performance of biden and lack of it's 90 minutes and it's a symptom of how we are a degraded democracy and we're acting as though our political rituals around this election are proceeding normally, but this, quote, debate shows that one party is using these events for a completely authoritarian purpose. >> ruth, i mean, i wish we'd had this conversation two hours ago and the whole conversation was framed around this. i think that's everything. i guess my questions then are, one, it was biden's idea. is the problem we still in the year of year 9 and trying to confront trumpism at the table for every debate planning meeting, network planning meeting? have we still not made the turn to what we're actually staring down the barrel at, which is an authoritarian leader? >> to some extent because, you know, there's lots of capable specialists and disinformation propaganda. what we know is instant live real time refutation of lies is what matters. after the fact, i mean, daniel dale did an amazing job of fact checking. that's not available to fox viewers. there were mistakes made in planning this event. there's also perhaps a hubris. this is what my colleagues on the segment are getting at of president biden insisting that these rules would be okay. though it's a learning moment, but it's also a moment to wake up and realize what you're dealing with because, again, substitute anybody and they would have been occupied refuting trump's lies, and that was by design. he was there to indoctrinate people. he was not there to educate the public. with somebody like that, a debate is just a bad idea. it shouldn't be called a debate. so our whole paradigm has to shift, in my opinion, with somebody like trump and the gop, which has become an autocratic party. >> i think that's exactly right. i think, look, as a network we confronted this when vrana mcdaniel was briefly brought on. the problem is decisions are made without this lens of, you know, we're not trying to show all sides of the policy divide in america. one party is fundamentally shifting toward in terms of its numbers the largest ascendant authoritarian movement on the planet and we haven't made the pivot to cover it as what it is. i hope this is a conversation we can continue. i appreciate all three of you so much. david jolly, tim miller and ruth banciot, thank you so much for spending time with us today. another break for us. we'll be right back. that's a pretty good burn, right? 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is he actually legally above the law. we'll get that ruling from the supreme court on monday morning. we want to invite you to sign up now for our deadline legal newsletter. in that newsletter you'll get analysis from our own jordan rubin on the court's decisions and all the other legal stories we cover on the broadcast. just scan the qr code on your screen. monday will be another very big day. we'll get here. we'll be here together. another break for us. we'll be right back. r, ok? what does a cat need? chewy's here. no, no, no, no. is that good? hey, wait! come back! is this normal? ask the chewy vet team. how much is too much catnip? for everything you need and everything you need to know. find it at chewy. your record label is taking off. but so is your sound engineer. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire that grimy film on your teeth? dr. g? 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