Transcripts For MSNBC All In With Chris Hayes 20240612

again, along with obamacare, of course. the funny thing is, trump is using this approach to try to appeal to latino voters, while at the same time promising to bring to america the political style and economic policies of the strongmen leaders of places like argentina and venezuela, which have some of the highest inflation rates in the world right now. make it make sense. tomorrow is set to be a big day for economic news. we will get a new inflation report in the morning and the fed will give an update on interest rates in the afternoon. so is rachel maddow would say, watch this space. and that is tonight's "reidout". you can follow me on tiktok and instagram and follow our show accounts on instagram and tick tock. "all in with chris hayes" starts now. tonight on "all in" -- >> as we deliberated today, we reached a verdict pretty quick. >> the presidents son found guilty of violating federal gun laws. >> no one in this country is above the law. everyone must be accountable for their actions, even this offender. >> tonight, what today's verdict does and does not mean about the rule of law in america. >> everyone is saying, where is hunter? a two-tiered system of justice we have. >> and how we campaign led by a convict is vetting potential running mates. >> certainly like having committed a crime -- and the scandal that just won't end. >> i want a sacred heart of jesus flag because i have to look across the lagoon at the pride flag. >> tonight jamie raskin and aoc together on their push to get answers from the supreme court. >> can you tell us how the supreme court and specifically the chief justice have addressed these scandals? >> when "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york. i am chris hayes. in a political era marked by a never-ending string of historic firsts, here is another today. a rare court decision that conservatives received with glee. >> hunter biden has been found guilty on all counts in his gun trial, federal trial in wilmington, delaware. >> hunter biden, the last living son of the sitting president was convicted today on three felony counts connected to lying on a federal firearms application in 2018 by not disclosing his struggles with drug addiction. he had that gun for 11 days. hunter biden now faces 25 years in prison and his father, president joe biden, did not blast the case as a crooked witchhunt. he did not target the prosecutors, the judge and the jurors, some of whom called into major news shows to discuss the verdict with no fears for their safety in this high-profile case. president biden did not shake his fist at the justice system. he put up this statement. as i said last week, i am the president, but i am also a dad. jill and i love our son and we are so proud of the man he is today. so many families who have had loved ones battle addiction understand the feeling of pride. as i also said last week, i will accept the outcome of this case and will continue to respect the judicial process as hunter considers an appeal. jill and i will always be there for hunter and the rest of our family with our love and support. nothing will ever change that. i have to say i find that genuinely touching. his love of family. also respect of the process. it is an incredibly stark contrast to the ceaseless barrage of absolutely unhinged authoritarian histrionics we all witnessed last month. remember? not just donald trump, but the entire republican party. all of the people dressing up like donald trump who went to the courthouse so he will pick them to be vice president. all of them basically calling to tear down the entire judicial system or casting aspersions on new york jurors or the judge or the prosecutor. everyone. all because their nominee got caught falsifying business records and was convicted unanimously by a jury of his peers on 34 felony counts. >> this was a rigged trial by a convicted judge who was corrupt. a disgrace. >> this is like a soviet style thing. show me the person and i will show you the crime. >> this was a political smear job. this is what you see in banana republics. >> this is the most outrageous travesty i've ever seen. >> this is a justice system that hunts republicans while protecting democrats. this was a hoax, a sham. >> do we want to become a country where we try to jail are political opponents? >> what do you think the party affiliation of hunter biden is? and so this hunter biden conviction is as clear a moment of contrast as possible between the two major coalitions, the major parties in the country today. what it illustrates is that one party, under donald trump, and this is important, has placed itself outside the american constitutional order, while the other is trying to defend and uphold it. that was clear as day on january 6, but particularly in the aftermath there was palpable were among republicans. lots of them talking about how horrified they were and resigning from the administration and all of that. and there was a sense the party wanted to distance themselves from trump's lawlessness. that was then. today they are fully united as a party in opposition to the constitution. an attitude by one of the most powerful conservatives you've never heard of. he wrote portions of the heritage foundation's project 2025 on how to remake the executive branch and a trump presidency. the washington post identified him as a potential chief of staff. he lays out his vision for a post-constitutional presidency to turn the government into a flatly authoritarian project or failing that, just a mafia style. disease more control of the justice department and assert power to withhold congressional appropriations and that is just on trump's first day back in office. meanwhile democrats are not just making statements of faith, they have taken real actions to preserve those institutions and their independence. no better example of this is the prosecution of hunter biden. remember how this started? okay, back in 2018 under david weiss, the u.s. attorney trump appointed in delaware, the fbi probed hunter biden. there were subpoenas, but there were no charges and remember, trump grew angry that his justice department had not publicized the investigation into his opponents son during the 2020 election. after trump lost the election, republicans insisted president biden would obstruct justice to keep his son free and they called for a special counsel to investigate. when a new president comes and it is his right to replace any u.s. attorney they want. they usually do. biden replaced all of trump's appointees except for two. who bill barr had test to investigate the russia probe. and david weiss, who was investigating his own son. that is because the new president, at the pains of a possible criminal conviction of his surviving son in recovery, wanted no appearance of impropriety or interference and infect biden's attorney general merrick garland went a step further and appointed weiss as special counsel to make sure his work on the hunter biden case was truly independent. that was a move that republicans opposed. the house judiciary committee writing, david weiss can't be trusted. this is just a new way to whitewash the biden family corruption. after all that an appeal deal was worked out with hunter biden and ultimately rejected by the courts. weiss ended up charging the president son for an offense so rarely prosecuted that even trey gowdy, the former congressman and prosecutor, could scarcely believe it. >> i did gun prosecutions for six years. i went after convicted felons. i went after people who were fugitives from justice. i went after lots of different people who were prohibited from possessing a firearm, but i bet there were not 10 cases prosecuted nationwide of addicts or unlawful drug users who possess firearms or lied on applications. i bet there weren't a dozen, which makes you wonder of all the cases you could be pursuing in delaware, why are you pursuing this one? >> all of this was facilitated by democrats in the white house and department of justice and capitol hill to restore faith in equal justice under the law and the norms of the constitutional order. donald trump flagrantly violated the law, interfering with the department of justice. stewing when he could not interfere further. publicly calling for prosecutions. you may have forgotten that months into his presidency troubles calling federal prosecutors and cultivating relationships with them, including the u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york. and obama holdover who was overseeing the investigation into stock trades made by trump's health secretary. he said those calls made him uncomfortable and he was fired as u.s. attorney less than a day after he finally refused to take a call from president trump. the administration would later tell propublica, trump's personal attorney bragged about getting him fired with reportedly telling trump, this guy is going to get you. the former united states attorney for the southern district of new york joins me now. an interesting study in contrast over the past few weeks. what strikes you about the reaction? >> when you think about the biden family and how joe biden in particular thinks about his job and not just his job, but his family. upon a conviction or before the conviction, the arrest and indictment of his son, given what his family has been through, you would think every fatherly instinct would've been to protect him. if you are a father, and i know you are, you love your children more than you love yourself. you try to protect them from harm and you try to protect them from bad consequences. the biden family has suffered lots of bad things as a family and yet there are some things more important than that when you are the commander in chief and basically the president of the country and one of those things is that no one is above the law and the rule of law matters. here is an occasion as you were playing out in the intro, where joe biden had absolute authority. literal authority. he had no authority over robin bragg and did not direct the prosecution of donald trump. it is his justice department. he had the authority to direct people not to prosecute his son. he could have fired the special counsel. he could have directed the special counsel not be appointed in the first place. he could have pardoned his son preemptively. all of that conduct, given that it is his son, it kind of makes you pause and think about ton -- about how unbelievable that is. in a million years, if the shoe were on the other foot and donald trump was facing his son being prosecuted, by me if i had been held over. a biden holdover prosecutor, not in a million years with that have happened. some of the people on the right, the people who support donald trump, are trying to cast this as some clever program by which this actually proves they >> yes. i will say it is outlandish imagining don junior getting in trouble with guns and drugs, but stephen miller said this. the gun charges are a misdirection and an easy opt to sell to a quiet media that is also willing to be duped. this is about protecting joe biden and only joe biden. no matter what happens, right, the corrupt deep system is deeper than you realized. >> if every possible outcome, every possible permutation is arguably a point in your favor, maybe your position is terrible. i used a different word than terrible. >> honestly i don't even think he was required to keep david weiss on in delaware. honestly, when i say bend over backwards, that is bending over -- it would have been perfectly reasonable to replace him. obviously it would not be reasonable to say wink wink, nagy nudge. but if you say do your thing. >> by the way some other features are important to point out and you mentioned some in the intro. the jury verdict came out. they did not dox the jury or attack the judge. he did not say this is a witch hunt. he said what people say. what i used to say when i was u.s. attorney for 7 1/2 years. >> you win some and you lose some. >> we say we respect the verdict of the jury. completely opposite to what donald trump said. >> it was striking. after that trump verdict, i remember judge kaplan in the federal civil trial with e. jean carroll told the jurors, look, you can talk to the press if you want. i would advise you not to. in alvin bragg's case they did not and i think we all know the reason. they would expose themselves to harassment and possible threats and violence. here you had the jurors talking to us, which, great, am a reporter. i like it, but what a contrast. >> it is a very stark contrast and i think it goes to show that when joe biden and his supporters talk about the rule of law and nobody being above the law, they mean it. you can disagree with joe biden's policies and talk about the border and all of these things that are not in my bailiwick, but on the question of whether or not the rule of law is to be enforced and no favor given to anyone, including the son of a sitting president of the united states. the republicans are full of it on trump side and biden is not. >> he has walked the walk. my final question for you is about independence in the department of justice. we have a post mix in order. one of the things about nixon and the reckoning at a level of regulation, norms, and that schuetz was the department of justice can't just be a tool in the hands of the executive to pursue vendetta to prosecute and punish enemies to protect friends. the trump vision is exactly that and in fact, explicitly that. they really think we are going to come in and it is going to be like day one, go open an investigation on that person, prosecute them. >> what they have accused everyone else of doing. there is a great irony. one of the cases pending against donald trump, the mar-a-lago documents case in federal court in florida, donald trump steam has made a number of motions to dismiss the indictment. one of those is vindictive prosecution. there is no evidence that joe biden or anyone else directed the investigation and prosecution and indictment. by saying the things they are saying now that you are pointing out, donald trump is ironically laying out the foundation for a vindictive prosecution motion to dismiss on behalf of all the current people donald trump will be going after. he is announcing his plans before election. all of those statements and those plans, project 20/25 and everything else, will be chapter and verse and asking for those dismissals of those indictments. coming up, congresswoman alexandria ocasio-cortez and jamie raskin on the litany of scandals rocking the supreme court, but first, what we are learning about donald trump's rude awakening from the justice system, next. system, next. shop etsy anytime for furniture, lighting, and other thoughtful pieces made by real people to bring a little something extra to the ordinary. find handmade items that add wow to your walls, help your party set-up pop, and new things to help you fall in love with your family room again. when you want one-of-a-kind items to give your home a little refresher... etsy has it. my name is marie. i'm 49 years old and i'm a business owner. i own a lemonade and ice cream shop in florida, so i can feel and see that my lines have gotten deeper just from a year out in the sun. i'm still marie and i got botox® cosmetic. i did not want a dramatic change. i wanted something subtle. and i'm really, really happy with the results. it's still me, but with fewer lines. botox® cosmetic is fda approved to temporarily make frown lines, crow's feet, and forehead lines look better. the effects of botox® cosmetic may spread hours to weeks 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unclear what that means for guns in his possession now with cnn reporting he told the probation officer yesterday he has a gun in florida. he could lose his liquor licenses for his golf clubs because new jersey law prohibits any person who has been convicted of a crime of moral turpitude from possessing a liquor license. the question, have you ever been convicted of a crime, is often on job applications. it is the subject of campaigns to get rid of it, to help former convicts get jobs and reenter society. that question is apparently still part of the vetting of trump's vice presidential pick, where it seems only one member of the ticket gets to be a felon. >> they asked us for a number of things. i think a number of people have been asked to submit this and that. >> like your taxes or something? criminal background? >> have you committed a crime? have you ever lied about this? certainly you have those conversations. >> he extensively covered trump world including his recent reporting on the juror. it is interesting to watch folks who don't know this and to watch the various implications of being convicted of a felony and all the different types of regulations and things you cannot do. in some states it is disenfranchisement, voting, liquor licenses and the like. >> being a person of color and a former prosecutor, i am unmoved by these newfound epiphanies on the right with respect to the reality of life in america if you are a convicted felon. one thing i find to be particularly interesting is how the right is scrambling to rearrange the narrative of what it is to be a felon. think of this for a moment. you're talking about the party that planted its flag on the notion of law and order in america, now having to walk out and say it is politically advantageous for our candidate to have 34 convictions on his record. this is a narrative they are not going to be able to square, but it is funny to watch them try. >> he invited in the bronx on stage, folks who are facing charges for a broad conspiracy with people that includes moving heavy drugs and violent crime. very serious, gnarly stuff. and has them on the stage like hey, this is our thing now. >> let's be clear, you are talking about whether someone is an associate of new orleans. -- an associate of felons. the list is long. >> i think they are trying to be like, it is actually good we are felons and they don't actually believe that. >> it's amazing how much the tough on crime philosophy falls by the wayside when it is the racist game show hosts turn in the barrel. donald trump and his minions talk day in and day out about a two-tiered system of justice. he is correct that one does exist in this country, it is just he is at this tier and everyone else's at this tier. so many things no other defendant could get away with. >> including the judge and all that stuff, he would have been put in jail for sure. >> absolutely and now behind the scenes and in the open he and his maga brain trust are getting ready to exploit parts of the u.s. criminal code to go after alvin bragg, letitia james, jack smith, if he returns to power in 2025. some of this is being cooked up behind the scenes and policy papers, but so much is being done in the open. >> you've also got them moving to get alvin bragg before a committee. he will testify with the gop led judiciary committee. one question i had about all of this, does any of this matter in the process that trump was going through? >> no, it does not. >> you don't think it matters, talking about it is all rigged? does that matter for sentencing? >> donald trump's public rhetoric absolutely matters. i thought you were referring to alvin bragg going to capitol hill, which is something i think he should not do. with respect to the things donald trump is parroting in the dialogue around his case, that matters. one of the things the probation officer is going to take into account is what degree of understanding and remorse do you have? >> i screwed up, i'm sorry. >> exactly. to walk in his office and say that when you have every opportunity with the microphone in front of your face. >> you've reported on this and this has been going around the house republican leaders are privately gauging support for legislation that would let current and former presidents move a state case to federal court. have you heard any of that? >> we reported in rolling stone at the end of last month that trump had been personally calling around to different conservative allies, including republican lawmakers on capitol hill, to lobby them. when i'm back in office, wouldn't it be great if you passed legislation that is ready for me to sign to have former and current presidents be able to move their cases to federal court. >> again, i think they are getting high on their own supply. i feel like that is a bad bill to vote for. for a front-line republican member. right? i'm not crazy. >> if you are a maga lawmaker, certainly there is a cute appeal to it. it is not only moderate republicans on capitol hill saying maybe we shouldn't do this. i've spoken to cronies who are close to donald trump who have told me maybe we should not go down this route because don't we want to use state a.g.'s and conservative district attorneys to go after joe biden or hillary clinton? >> yes, the principal applying equally would hang them up. there is back and forth about the gun situation, charles. i'm sure you have encountered this. what does the law say about whether he can keep the gun in florida? in your crime. >> he more likely than not will need to turn the gun in in florida. he is going to have a grace period where that is allowed. well technically he might be in violation of the law upon notice of conviction, he is probably going to be allowed but it does not surprise me he has to turn it in in florida. >> there is an incredible thing happening which is the hunter biden conviction was about a felony conviction. he lied on forms. committing a felony in terms of taking drugs and owning a gun. so he lied on the forms. now we have the ex-president holding a gun, having been convicted of a felony. a remarkable set of circumstances. charles coleman, asawin suebsaeng, thank you both. still to come, samuel alito's wife has more thoughts about flags, amazingly. aoc and jamie raskin on the supreme court legitimacy crisis, ahead. 50 days!? and its refill reminder light means i'll never miss a day of freshness. ♪ [ growl ] ready for the road trip. means i'll never miss everyone comfortable.ness. yep, there's plenty of space. i've even got an extra seat. wait! no, no, no, no, no. 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the opposite of pride. the alito's have not responded to requests for comment but none of what ms. alito said change the facts that justice alito allowed this to fly over his home while he sits in the highest court in the land hearing cases related to the insurrection on january 6 and sits on the court with his buddy clarence thomas whose wife was interviewed by the committee about her text with donald trump's chief of staff. both refused to recuse themselves, despite the obvious appearance of bias. when faced with an increasingly urgent question, what can be done about the out-of-control court? today democrats held a roundtable on the ethical crisis in the supreme court. i should note that one of the expert legal witnesses there was my wife. leading the panel was jamie raskin, the ranking member of the oversight committee and newark congresswoman alexandria ocasio-cortez, the vice ranking member, and they join me now. it is good to have you on. >> thanks for having us. >> i will start with you and what the agenda was today. obviously you can't call hearings yourself as a ranking member and not the chair, but what were you trying to do today? >> oversight democrats wanted to respond to the national clamor over this crisis of legitimacy at the supreme court. so we analyzed the ethics crisis. we analyzed the political crisis around what got us into this and the blockaded confirmations of people like merrick garland, nominated by president obama to the court, and then we began to talk about what things could be done in the specific case of justices alito and thomas and generally about the ethical collapse of the supreme court. it is the highest court in the land with the lowest ethical standards. the only government officials in the land who are not governed by a binding ethics code. there is no process by which we can hold any of them accountable, so it violates the essential principle that james madison identified as the heart of our justice system. which is that no man can be a judge in his own cause. so we began to explore different avenues of holding them accountable. >> congresswoman, you said something toward the end of the hearing that it cannot be the case as a constitutional matter, as an almost intuitive commonsense matter, that they are not subject to any checks. we have three branches. checks and balances move between the positions and justice alito said in the wall street journal interview that congress has no ability to regulate us whatsoever. what should congress be doing? what are you brainstorming basically? what is the conversation about what those can be? >> of course justice alito's position is laughable in this. this idea that he can be and that the court should be accountable to nobody and that the only person they should be accountable to our themselves. this kind of scouts promise sort of set up for how we should be having ethics standards for the highest and most consequential court in the land. it is completely unacceptable and not only is it unacceptable but to have anyone of our coequal branches be completely unaccountable to the others is paving the path to authoritarianism, tyranny, the abuse of power in the united states. it is structurally, completely unsustainable. so it is not a question of if congress has jurisdiction and power over the supreme court. it is what power are we going to exercise in order to reign in a fundamentally unaccountable and rogue court? one of the beautiful things about today's roundtable is we were also able to call in one of our senate colleagues, senator whitehouse, who has been pursuing extensive investigations into the dark money network that has been exerting influence over the court and we raised and discussed varying measures from term limits to an actual binding ethics standard and also congressman raskin and myself will be introducing forthcoming legislation to even have the supreme court be subject to the same $50 gift rule that he and i are subject to, as are everyone else who are members of congress. >> that is a great point. my understanding, i was talking to my wife, kate shaw, about this. to give testimony during the hearing. she pointed out to me if i am not mistaken that things, for instance, you can get a book deal as a supreme court justice. that is allowed. but you could not like to be a partner -- that is something that congress passed a statute to say what you could and could not do, because obviously it would be nuts to be a supreme court justice and have a side gig as a lawyer. we all understand that. congress can pass statutes that say this activity is just not allowed. >> congress has a ban on outside employment and as aoc was saying, we have a $50 gift ban, so none of us goes anywhere near doing that. >> you don't do $500,000 vacations? >> that's the comical thing. members of congress don't even understand that. under what circumstance would a supreme court justice be accepting hundreds of thousands of dollars or millions of dollars in foreign travel were paid tuition for family members or a recreational vehicle, motor stagecoach? it is outlandish for us to complicate -- to contemplate. it is like the normal business as usual at the supreme court that they are collecting millions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of dollars from their so-called friends. we need to clean that up. we said we will start with something simple that the whole country will be able to understand immediately and intuitively. we want a $50 gift ban. they make $300,000 a year. pay for your own lunch and pay for your own vacation. >> that does seem quite clear, congresswoman, and also has the advantage again. there are particular issues to deal with, but in some ways the only way to legislate it or for congress to act is outlining broad principles that are equally applicable. >> absolutely and as all of us as public servants, whether it is both chambers of congress, any of us are subject to the same or similar uniform code of ethics and the fact that the supreme court, which is already unelected, at least for those of us who run for office we have to re-run for office every two years in the house. for an unelected body of nine people, appointed for life, to not have any sort of binding, strict ethics code to which they cannot only be held accountable, but which can be enforced, is actually ludicrous. and it is almost unbelievable that we are sitting here in the year 2024, over 200 years after the establishment of this country, and that we actually have not addressed this issue. it is long past doing and it is common sense. >> one of the things we addressed, chris, was how the private corruption of the justices mirrors the public corruption of justice. it is this roberts court, this right-wing court dismantling civil rights laws, civil liberties, women's rights to choose, labor law, consumer law, you name it. as they grow more and more removed from the experiences of the way the rest of us live, the more they are willing to demolish the protections. the >> there are a bunch of things that happened outside of the ap purview that you have to do with equal justice under law and i wonder if both of you would stick around to talk ul about that, is that all right? 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>> i mean, it was very presidential and, you know, he showed in his statement love for his son and love for his country including the rule of law. the different reactions between a republican colleagues and our democratic colleagues with the trump verdict and hunter biden verdict, it is just astounding. nobody on our side said that the fix was in, nobody said that it was a travesty, nobody said that the justice needs to be turned upside down. everybody accepted it. hunter biden, like donald trump, had the right of counsel which you exercise, you have the presumption of innocence, he had the right to take the stand which he chose not to do like donald trump chose not to take the stand and they have both had unanimous jury verdicts finding that they were guilty on all counts. so i am saying about that what i said about donald trump's verdict which is, they have a right to appeal and they can do that under due process, thank god we have got that in america. and we are going to stand by the rule of law and the system of justice, for the same reason that we are fighting for a supreme court that restores its integrity and reputation because we need to have that kind of confidence, not just at the trial level in federal court or state court. we need to have it going all the way up. those of supreme court justices are just a complete runaway body. >> speaking of state court in new york, congresswoman, obviously you represent part of new york, there was a huge amount of insults and vitriol that has been directed at alvin bragg both from donald trump on down and people carrying water for him, that has now escalated. he will now -- he is being called by the house republicans before the judiciary committee and be grilled by house republicans who have rallied behind mr. trump since his conviction last month. gop lawmakers are perpetuating his false narrative that president biden ordered his prosecution. what you think about the fact that they are not escalating to the point where they will call alvin bragg before congress? >> what we are seeing here unseld is an outright abuse of power in the politicization of the seats of power these republicans hold in order to intimidate the courts and exact political revenge. we have to just look at this from a basic jurisdictional point of view. alvin bragg is not even -- this is not even a federal case in the same way. we are looking at a state court. and we are looking at municipal and state courts and we have republicans who are trying to haul them in, on what grounds exactly? this is not federal court, they do not have jurisdiction over it, this is truly just and attempt at public targeting. and we see that they do this, this is in the middle of donald trump, it is in the model of invoking and trying to incite as much anger and intimidation in order for them to get the outcomes that they want. >> they are so eager to be fans to donald trump that their political judgment is off because that is not where the public is and the public understands, with the hunter biden verdict in the donald trump verdict, the rule of law is just working and they are intervening, as you say, and an estate case in order simply to placate donald trump pics to precisely, what we are also seeing here is the stark contrast between joe biden and donald trump. and in president biden, we have both come yes, a loving father who is there to be supportive of his son, but also a president who respects rule of law and is willing to accept the outcomes of the case even if that outcome is not in favor with his family or his personal outcomes. whereas, you have donald trump who takes and finances the seats of government, the seats of power, and embarks on a campaign, a political intimidation, in order to secure outcomes that personally benefit him. and that at the core is part of the sticks of our democracy that are before us today. because once rule of law goes out the window, it is not something that is easy to get back and it is very much a part of the decision that we have to make before us in the next few months. >> congresswoman alexandria ocasio-cortez, congressman jamie raskin, thank you for your time tonight. i really appreciate it. that is all in on this tuesday night. alex wagner tonight starts now. >> we have new exclusive audio from the supreme court historical society that lauren winsor has given us and we will be playing that in the hour, so stay tuned. >> i will pick >> like i said, exclusive never before heard audio recordings of justice samuel alito speaking to an undercover

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